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Chipmunk1973
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Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:18 am

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-27/ ... /101175214

ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) Investigations have published an article, claimed to be a world exclusive, outlining ongoing issues with the 737MAX after it was allowed to fly again.

"...experienced at least six mid-air emergencies and dozens of groundings in the year after an extensive probe cleared them to fly."

"In one incident in December 2021, a United Airlines pilot declared a mayday after the system controlling the pitch and altitude of the plane started malfunctioning."

"An ABC investigation can also reveal the US government will announce a new audit examining Boeing's production oversight of the 737 MAX planes."

Cheers
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:02 am

This article seems very flimsy

What is this dozens of groundings and 6 mid air emergencies that most other types don’t have

This December 2021 incident?

This whole article seems like it’s misleading and flimsy

The article says there’s an incident where fuel was leaking from the overhead bins?

Okay seriously?
Last edited by Opus99 on Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dalavia
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:10 am

I'll be watching the televised version when it airs at 7:30pm tonight, and I'll make up my mind after seeing the evidence presented.

The promos for tonight's documentary have been getting lots of airplay during the day today, which would be odd if the documentary didn't have some substantial new information. It's hard to get a more reliable news source in Australia than the ABC.
 
billyp4850
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:15 am

Aunty ABC and 7:30 are renowned for their industry stopping beat ups based on marginal evidence. It will be interesting to see what they present in this program.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:16 am

This is an old story, from late 2021, early 2022, put forward by Ed Pierson. Here is a link to his "report" and data.

https://www.edpierson.com/how-is-it-really-going

The major claim was that the 737 MAX has a higher incident rate now, than before the grounding. But the FAA and Boeing dismissed that claim, because of an incorrect statistical basis. In fact the FAA monitors MAX in-flight events in real time, and the incident rate is on par with other aircraft. This is evident from data collected independently by the AVHerald as well.

Some news outlets have chosen to pursue the stories regularly generated by these guys, as crusading "whistleblowers". It makes good copy and generates lots of clicks. But as FAA Administrator Dickson testified before Congress, all their allegations are taken seriously and investigated, but none have resulted in significant findings or enforcement action. Most are based on misunderstanding of technical information. This one is no exception.
Last edited by Avatar2go on Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:19 am

Oh FFS.

From the article:

Kwasi Adjekum, an assistant professor of aviation at the University of North Dakota and a former air crash investigator, identified seven of the mid-air emergencies as being very serious and said Boeing had cut corners with the design of the MAX and suffered persistent manufacturing problems.

But he said the high number of electrical failures reported on MAX planes could be explained by wiring and components degrading while the aircraft sat in storage for up to 20 months.

"It may be a far stretch to conclude that there are serious system flaws in an aircraft type that traces back to an original equipment manufacturer using localised or limited data such as these. It could also be an issue with the operator's maintenance practices/procedures," he said.


Sensationalist much, ABC?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:24 am

The past 3 years. Wall Street journal and Seattle times have been A* at Airing boeings dirty laundry but it’s ABC in Australia that has the exclusive new details? Gotcha
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:35 am

What is this claimed "new audit" about?
 
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Dalavia
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:39 am

Opus99 wrote:
The past 3 years. Wall Street journal and Seattle times have been A* at Airing boeings dirty laundry but it’s ABC in Australia that has the exclusive new details? Gotcha


I'll draw my conclusions based on the evidence and the arguments provided, not the geographical location of the news source.

The ABC has no "skin the game"; there is no reason that I can see why they might be presenting a biased report. Being a government-funded but independent institution, it's not as though they need to boost ratings for commercial gain.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:42 am

Dalavia wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The past 3 years. Wall Street journal and Seattle times have been A* at Airing boeings dirty laundry but it’s ABC in Australia that has the exclusive new details? Gotcha


I'll draw my conclusions based on the evidence and the arguments provided, not the geographical location of the news source.

The ABC has no "skin the game"; there is no reason that I can see why they might be presenting a biased report. Being a government-funded but independent institution, it's not as though they need to boost ratings for commercial gain.

Let us know how that goes
 
VS11
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:47 am

The title of the thread should be changed to indicate that it is about a tv show making such claims.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:49 am

Noshow wrote:
What is this claimed "new audit" about?


As part of the Congressional hearings on the MAX accidents, the transportation committee took testimony from Boeing "whistleblowers" on alleged manufacturing and safety issues. The FAA testified that these issues had already been investigated and found to be unsubstantiated. But the committee requested that the FAA conduct an audit of MAX production. The article is referring to that audit.

The whistleblower testimony also figured prominently in the committee's issued report. It generated a lot of ruckus in the news cycle at the time, but the FAA did not include any of it as substantive, in their MAX recertification analysis or documents.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:54 am

Thanks. The FAA cleared the MAX to fly that is what counts from my view.
However the -10 and -7 certifications feel to be stalled for some reason. It was a short fuselage (=most tricky) -7 that did the successful test flights for recertification already and the long fuselage (=least tricky) should be the most easy to be cleared.

If authorities feel that MAXes need centralised cockpit warning panels why could the MAX 8 get cleared? If they don't need it why take -7 and -10 so long?
Last edited by Noshow on Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:57 am

Noshow wrote:
Thanks. The FAA cleared the MAX to fly that is what counts from my view.
However the -10 and -7 certifications feel to be stalled for some reason. It was a short fuselage (=most tricky) -7 that did the successful test flights for recertification and the long fuselage (=least tricky) should be the most easy to be cleared.


New paradigm with the FAA on aircraft certification. Old patterns don't apply anymore. We are really just learning now what the new normal will be.
 
Avgeek21
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:04 am

Having several hundred hours as PIC on the MAX since it’s return to service I can only say that based on my experience I’ve had zero issue with her. And these aircraft are making record daily utilization hours. The MAX nowadays is just like the NG; solid and reliable.
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:12 am

I read the article and thought it was one of the weakest pieces I have had the misfortune to read. It cobbles together several different strands and tries to make the MAX seem more of a danger than other types with really no substantive evidence.
 
Cmac787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:43 am

i work with the MAX all the time. we have very few MX issues on it. especially compared to the Airbuses.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:48 pm

Vehicular safety is working at becoming as safe and reliable as aviation safety. How? Vehicles are now self-reporting more data. Hence more incidents, recalls, required repairs and maintenance.
 
orlandocfi
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:50 pm

The article appears to be written by someone with no aeronautical knowledge whatsoever. To a layperson, even the most mundane technical jargon will appear scary and confusing. I also find it amusing that these airborne catastrophes that are alleged to have occurred in US skies never managed to make it onto the news here, but rather many months later in Australian news.
The max certainly has had its issues, but there are many more newsworthy events happening in our world today.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:55 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Thanks. The FAA cleared the MAX to fly that is what counts from my view.
However the -10 and -7 certifications feel to be stalled for some reason. It was a short fuselage (=most tricky) -7 that did the successful test flights for recertification and the long fuselage (=least tricky) should be the most easy to be cleared.


New paradigm with the FAA on aircraft certification. Old patterns don't apply anymore. We are really just learning now what the new normal will be.

Yes, and this new paradigm is effecting Airbus new launches too.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:56 pm

Noshow wrote:
Thanks. The FAA cleared the MAX to fly that is what counts from my view.
However the -10 and -7 certifications feel to be stalled for some reason. It was a short fuselage (=most tricky) -7 that did the successful test flights for recertification already and the long fuselage (=least tricky) should be the most easy to be cleared.

If authorities feel that MAXes need centralised cockpit warning panels why could the MAX 8 get cleared? If they don't need it why take -7 and -10 so long?


Not only the FAA but EASA and many other regulators around the world. None outside of the FAA would have been under any kind of political pressure so the fact that they did their own independent recertification and all have reached the same conclusion (the 737 MAX is safe) is what counts from my view.
 
SWADawg
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:18 pm

Avgeek21 wrote:
Having several hundred hours as PIC on the MAX since it’s return to service I can only say that based on my experience I’ve had zero issue with her. And these aircraft are making record daily utilization hours. The MAX nowadays is just like the NG; solid and reliable.

Same for me. Several hundred hours of PIC and ZERO issues. This is the best 737 yet. It flies like a dream, it’s quiet, and it sips fuel compared to the NG. My only complaint is how long it takes to start the new engines. But that’s an issue on the NEO as well, so nothing unique to the MAX. I would put my family on this Airplane anytime anywhere and have.
 
AviationLuver
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:40 pm

SWADawg wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
Having several hundred hours as PIC on the MAX since it’s return to service I can only say that based on my experience I’ve had zero issue with her. And these aircraft are making record daily utilization hours. The MAX nowadays is just like the NG; solid and reliable.

Same for me. Several hundred hours of PIC and ZERO issues. This is the best 737 yet. It flies like a dream, it’s quiet, and it sips fuel compared to the NG. My only complaint is how long it takes to start the new engines. But that’s an issue on the NEO as well, so nothing unique to the MAX. I would put my family on this Airplane anytime anywhere and have.


Good morning,

Thanks for that feedback! Very fascinating. You don’t have to get all technical, but generally speaking, how much less fuel do you see the MAX using compared to the NG?
 
B737MAX
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:06 pm

SWADawg wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
Having several hundred hours as PIC on the MAX since it’s return to service I can only say that based on my experience I’ve had zero issue with her. And these aircraft are making record daily utilization hours. The MAX nowadays is just like the NG; solid and reliable.

Same for me. Several hundred hours of PIC and ZERO issues. This is the best 737 yet. It flies like a dream, it’s quiet, and it sips fuel compared to the NG. My only complaint is how long it takes to start the new engines. But that’s an issue on the NEO as well, so nothing unique to the MAX. I would put my family on this Airplane anytime anywhere and have.


Might be the best 737 yet for you (not for me), but it’s behind Airbus or its 320NEO family for pretty much everything if we speak from a pilot point of view.

I wish the NG could have been the last 737 model.
And now we all know why it should have been the case…
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:58 pm

B737MAX wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
Having several hundred hours as PIC on the MAX since it’s return to service I can only say that based on my experience I’ve had zero issue with her. And these aircraft are making record daily utilization hours. The MAX nowadays is just like the NG; solid and reliable.

Same for me. Several hundred hours of PIC and ZERO issues. This is the best 737 yet. It flies like a dream, it’s quiet, and it sips fuel compared to the NG. My only complaint is how long it takes to start the new engines. But that’s an issue on the NEO as well, so nothing unique to the MAX. I would put my family on this Airplane anytime anywhere and have.


Might be the best 737 yet for you (not for me), but it’s behind Airbus or its 320NEO family for pretty much everything if we speak from a pilot point of view.

I wish the NG could have been the last 737 model.
And now we all know why it should have been the case…


We have pilots here endorsing the MAX, and that has been my experience in privately speaking to MAX pilots as well. The airlines have publicly endorsed it, and there are many passenger favorable review videos on YouTube (quite a few emerged on the first MAX flights after recertification).

Plus the technical & justification documentation released by the FAA. Plus the record of the MAX after recertification, which despite this article trying to inflame the issue, has been quite good.

I get that some people will never accept any of that, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming in favor of the MAX being a good aircraft.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:08 pm

B737MAX wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
Having several hundred hours as PIC on the MAX since it’s return to service I can only say that based on my experience I’ve had zero issue with her. And these aircraft are making record daily utilization hours. The MAX nowadays is just like the NG; solid and reliable.

Same for me. Several hundred hours of PIC and ZERO issues. This is the best 737 yet. It flies like a dream, it’s quiet, and it sips fuel compared to the NG. My only complaint is how long it takes to start the new engines. But that’s an issue on the NEO as well, so nothing unique to the MAX. I would put my family on this Airplane anytime anywhere and have.


Might be the best 737 yet for you (not for me), but it’s behind Airbus or its 320NEO family for pretty much everything if we speak from a pilot point of view.

I wish the NG could have been the last 737 model.
And now we all know why it should have been the case…


I’d like to know more about this in more detail please?
 
kiowa
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:11 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
B737MAX wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
Same for me. Several hundred hours of PIC and ZERO issues. This is the best 737 yet. It flies like a dream, it’s quiet, and it sips fuel compared to the NG. My only complaint is how long it takes to start the new engines. But that’s an issue on the NEO as well, so nothing unique to the MAX. I would put my family on this Airplane anytime anywhere and have.


Might be the best 737 yet for you (not for me), but it’s behind Airbus or its 320NEO family for pretty much everything if we speak from a pilot point of view.

I wish the NG could have been the last 737 model.
And now we all know why it should have been the case…


We have pilots here endorsing the MAX, and that has been my experience in privately speaking to MAX pilots as well. The airlines have publicly endorsed it, and there are many passenger favorable review videos on YouTube (quite a few emerged on the first MAX flights after recertification).

Plus the technical & justification documentation released by the FAA. Plus the record of the MAX after recertification, which despite this article trying to inflame the issue, has been quite good.

I get that some people will never accept any of that, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming in favor of the MAX being a good aircraft.



There are at least 4 pilots and 346 passengers who would disagree with you if they could.
 
JohanTally
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:17 pm

From a passenger perspective the only noticeable difference from past 737 models is a quieter cabin. I'd say 90% of pax experience is a direct result of the airline and how they outfit the cabin and whether their employees provide high levels of service. While some pilots on anet seem to enjoy the MAX even with the more analog approach and others seem to loathe them for having a higher pilot workload.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:23 pm

kiowa wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
B737MAX wrote:

Might be the best 737 yet for you (not for me), but it’s behind Airbus or its 320NEO family for pretty much everything if we speak from a pilot point of view.

I wish the NG could have been the last 737 model.
And now we all know why it should have been the case…


We have pilots here endorsing the MAX, and that has been my experience in privately speaking to MAX pilots as well. The airlines have publicly endorsed it, and there are many passenger favorable review videos on YouTube (quite a few emerged on the first MAX flights after recertification).

Plus the technical & justification documentation released by the FAA. Plus the record of the MAX after recertification, which despite this article trying to inflame the issue, has been quite good.

I get that some people will never accept any of that, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming in favor of the MAX being a good aircraft.



There are at least 4 pilots and 346 passengers who would disagree with you if they could.


The currently flying MAX is not the same as the version that was involved in those tragedies.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:03 pm

JohanTally wrote:
While some pilots on anet seem to enjoy the MAX even with the more analog approach and others seem to loathe them for having a higher pilot workload.


I suspect this may be a Mac/Windows type of thing, in terms of it being a function of what you are accustomed to. Many Mac users had difficulty transitioning to Windows, claiming it was far too hard to use and understand. But for Windows users who understood the interface, it wasn't an issue. In general it was easier for Windows users to move to the Mac, than vice-versa. Probably true of the 737 as well.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:54 pm

The Boeing 737MAX has a dispatch reliability rate well over 99% and increasing. This doesn't support the subject ABC TV program's sensational theories of "ongoing problems".

I really think it's time to lock up this thread...
 
hpff
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:21 pm

There's also a New York Times article out today on the MAX. Barron's are calling both articles an overreaction, but a risk to watch for Boeing stockholders.
 
randomdude83
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:46 pm

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-27/boeing-737-max-in-mid-air-emergencies-as-us-set-to-launch-probe/101175214

ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) Investigations have published an article, claimed to be a world exclusive, outlining ongoing issues with the 737MAX after it was allowed to fly again.

"...experienced at least six mid-air emergencies and dozens of groundings in the year after an extensive probe cleared them to fly."

"In one incident in December 2021, a United Airlines pilot declared a mayday after the system controlling the pitch and altitude of the plane started malfunctioning."

"An ABC investigation can also reveal the US government will announce a new audit examining Boeing's production oversight of the 737 MAX planes."

Cheers


The only thing that is worth looking into is the United airlines incident with pitch and altitude. does anyone know which flight that is? the article is failing to confirm but did an MCAS event get triggered? did an AOA sensor fail once again?
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:14 am

randomdude83 wrote:
The only thing that is worth looking into is the United airlines incident with pitch and altitude. does anyone know which flight that is? the article is failing to confirm but did an MCAS event get triggered? did an AOA sensor fail once again?


I posted the data link above from Ed Pierson, upon which this article is based. Here are the trim incidents he reported:

Upon intercepting the Glide Slope, the First Officer called for 'Flaps 15, Landing Gear down.' The
aircraft captured the glideslope uneventfully. Shortly after passing ZZZZZ, the First Officer called
for 'Flaps 30.' I selected Flaps 30 and as the flaps were moving to Flaps 30 the aircraft abruptly
pushed the nose over approximately 8 to 10 degrees down. NASA ASRS ACN 1802427


Resolution: Reporter stated that further data analysis showed the pitch down event was due to a glide slope drop out that was caused by another aircraft on the runway ready for departure. Reporter also stated that these types of glide slope losses were known to occasionally occur with this runway.

STAB OUT OF TRIM LIGHT CAME ON DURING CRUISE FLT. RAN QRH; DETERMINED MAIN ELEC
TRIM INOP. / R/R STAB TRIM MOTOR PER M/M 27-41-71 AND M/M 22-11-81 OP CKS GOOD.
ISSUE# 3402820OFF PART# 6355D0001-01 S/N OFF 20297ON PART# 6355D0001-01 S/N ON
20472 FAA SDR SWAA2021071693787


AIRCRAFT WAS GROUNDED: STABILIZER OUT OF TRIM PANEL LIGHT ILLUMINATED NEAR TOP OF
CLIMB AND AIRCRAFT WAS NOT TRIMMING NORMAL. FLIGHT DIVERTED TO MIA AND declared
emergency FOR PRECAUTIONS. FLIGHT WAS NOT OVERWEIGHT FOR LANDING. REMOVED AND
REPLACED STABILIZER TRIM MOTOR PER AMM 27-41-71 AS A PRECAUTION. PREFORMED
INTEGRITY CHECK OF WIRING FOUND CONNECTOR D381 OF M1659 STABILIZER TRIM MOTOR
NOT SECURE. RESECURED CONNECTOR FAA SDR AALA202106079024


I could not find the United Airlines incident that is referenced, it isn't in Pierson's data. I'm guessing it's actually the third incident reported above by American Airlines, where the pilot declared an emergency and returned to the airport. Technicians replaced the trim motor out of caution, and then found a loose connector.

I'm not aware of any MAX incidents that have triggered MCAS or involved an AoA sensor failure, since recertification.
Last edited by Avatar2go on Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:03 am

A notable tactic of the whistleblowers and some media, is to report incidents that have occurred from searches of the flight databases, but not the resolutions of those incidents, which appear side-by-side in the database. Evey incident is investigated and resolved. So when you see this behavior, unless it is a very recent incident, it's an indicator that there may be an agenda involved.

To the general public who don't understand the procedures, the impression is created that problems have occurred without any action taken, but that is never the case, for any modern airline or regulator.

The NASA Air Safety Reporting database is great because pilots can report anything, even their own errors, without fear of retaliation. In the MAX data since certification, there are some frank disclosures from pilots. The database can be observed by all stakeholders to look for patterns of events that could be remedied. For a pilot to self-report, is a strong indicator of safety culture, and should be commended.
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:36 am

B737MAX wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
Having several hundred hours as PIC on the MAX since it’s return to service I can only say that based on my experience I’ve had zero issue with her. And these aircraft are making record daily utilization hours. The MAX nowadays is just like the NG; solid and reliable.

Same for me. Several hundred hours of PIC and ZERO issues. This is the best 737 yet. It flies like a dream, it’s quiet, and it sips fuel compared to the NG. My only complaint is how long it takes to start the new engines. But that’s an issue on the NEO as well, so nothing unique to the MAX. I would put my family on this Airplane anytime anywhere and have.


Might be the best 737 yet for you (not for me), but it’s behind Airbus or its 320NEO family for pretty much everything if we speak from a pilot point of view.

I wish the NG could have been the last 737 model.
And now we all know why it should have been the case…



Care to expand on that any?

I currently fly the 73 (NG and MAX), but I've flown the bus as well. There isn't anything "from a pilot point of view" so much better about the bus, except being able to gush on about "the tray table".
 
birdbrainz
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 6:57 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:52 am

SWADawg wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
Having several hundred hours as PIC on the MAX since it’s return to service I can only say that based on my experience I’ve had zero issue with her. And these aircraft are making record daily utilization hours. The MAX nowadays is just like the NG; solid and reliable.

Same for me. Several hundred hours of PIC and ZERO issues. This is the best 737 yet. It flies like a dream, it’s quiet, and it sips fuel compared to the NG. My only complaint is how long it takes to start the new engines. But that’s an issue on the NEO as well, so nothing unique to the MAX. I would put my family on this Airplane anytime anywhere and have.


Great to hear. Haven't been on a MAX yet, but am eager.

One question: does there seem to be a general preference among pilots for flying the MAX over the NG, and is it enough to influence which flying you bid? I.e., if a trip had the max with slightly less favorable timings or cities, would you still bid it? Is the MAX9 as bad as the 900ER at gobbling up runway?
 
planecane
Posts: 1913
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:54 am

Avatar2go wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
The only thing that is worth looking into is the United airlines incident with pitch and altitude. does anyone know which flight that is? the article is failing to confirm but did an MCAS event get triggered? did an AOA sensor fail once again?


I posted the data link above from Ed Pierson, upon which this article is based. Here are the trim incidents he reported:

Upon intercepting the Glide Slope, the First Officer called for 'Flaps 15, Landing Gear down.' The
aircraft captured the glideslope uneventfully. Shortly after passing ZZZZZ, the First Officer called
for 'Flaps 30.' I selected Flaps 30 and as the flaps were moving to Flaps 30 the aircraft abruptly
pushed the nose over approximately 8 to 10 degrees down. NASA ASRS ACN 1802427


Resolution: Reporter stated that further data analysis showed the pitch down event was due to a glide slope drop out that was caused by another aircraft on the runway ready for departure. Reporter also stated that these types of glide slope losses were known to occasionally occur with this runway.

STAB OUT OF TRIM LIGHT CAME ON DURING CRUISE FLT. RAN QRH; DETERMINED MAIN ELEC
TRIM INOP. / R/R STAB TRIM MOTOR PER M/M 27-41-71 AND M/M 22-11-81 OP CKS GOOD.
ISSUE# 3402820OFF PART# 6355D0001-01 S/N OFF 20297ON PART# 6355D0001-01 S/N ON
20472 FAA SDR SWAA2021071693787


AIRCRAFT WAS GROUNDED: STABILIZER OUT OF TRIM PANEL LIGHT ILLUMINATED NEAR TOP OF
CLIMB AND AIRCRAFT WAS NOT TRIMMING NORMAL. FLIGHT DIVERTED TO MIA AND declared
emergency FOR PRECAUTIONS. FLIGHT WAS NOT OVERWEIGHT FOR LANDING. REMOVED AND
REPLACED STABILIZER TRIM MOTOR PER AMM 27-41-71 AS A PRECAUTION. PREFORMED
INTEGRITY CHECK OF WIRING FOUND CONNECTOR D381 OF M1659 STABILIZER TRIM MOTOR
NOT SECURE. RESECURED CONNECTOR FAA SDR AALA202106079024


I could not find the United Airlines incident that is referenced, it isn't in Pierson's data. I'm guessing it's actually the third incident reported above by American Airlines, where the pilot declared an emergency and returned to the airport. Technicians replaced the trim motor out of caution, and then found a loose connector.

I'm not aware of any MAX incidents that have triggered MCAS or involved an AoA sensor failure, since recertification.


After all of the logic/software changes, I wouldn't be surprised if MCAS never triggers ever on any 737 MAX for the entire service life of the fleet. I don't mean just not trigger erroneously, I mean that it will never trigger in regular service for the situations it is designed for because the aircraft should never be in the position where it is needed in normal revenue service.
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 254
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:00 am

planecane wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
The only thing that is worth looking into is the United airlines incident with pitch and altitude. does anyone know which flight that is? the article is failing to confirm but did an MCAS event get triggered? did an AOA sensor fail once again?


I posted the data link above from Ed Pierson, upon which this article is based. Here are the trim incidents he reported:

Upon intercepting the Glide Slope, the First Officer called for 'Flaps 15, Landing Gear down.' The
aircraft captured the glideslope uneventfully. Shortly after passing ZZZZZ, the First Officer called
for 'Flaps 30.' I selected Flaps 30 and as the flaps were moving to Flaps 30 the aircraft abruptly
pushed the nose over approximately 8 to 10 degrees down. NASA ASRS ACN 1802427


Resolution: Reporter stated that further data analysis showed the pitch down event was due to a glide slope drop out that was caused by another aircraft on the runway ready for departure. Reporter also stated that these types of glide slope losses were known to occasionally occur with this runway.

STAB OUT OF TRIM LIGHT CAME ON DURING CRUISE FLT. RAN QRH; DETERMINED MAIN ELEC
TRIM INOP. / R/R STAB TRIM MOTOR PER M/M 27-41-71 AND M/M 22-11-81 OP CKS GOOD.
ISSUE# 3402820OFF PART# 6355D0001-01 S/N OFF 20297ON PART# 6355D0001-01 S/N ON
20472 FAA SDR SWAA2021071693787


AIRCRAFT WAS GROUNDED: STABILIZER OUT OF TRIM PANEL LIGHT ILLUMINATED NEAR TOP OF
CLIMB AND AIRCRAFT WAS NOT TRIMMING NORMAL. FLIGHT DIVERTED TO MIA AND declared
emergency FOR PRECAUTIONS. FLIGHT WAS NOT OVERWEIGHT FOR LANDING. REMOVED AND
REPLACED STABILIZER TRIM MOTOR PER AMM 27-41-71 AS A PRECAUTION. PREFORMED
INTEGRITY CHECK OF WIRING FOUND CONNECTOR D381 OF M1659 STABILIZER TRIM MOTOR
NOT SECURE. RESECURED CONNECTOR FAA SDR AALA202106079024


I could not find the United Airlines incident that is referenced, it isn't in Pierson's data. I'm guessing it's actually the third incident reported above by American Airlines, where the pilot declared an emergency and returned to the airport. Technicians replaced the trim motor out of caution, and then found a loose connector.

I'm not aware of any MAX incidents that have triggered MCAS or involved an AoA sensor failure, since recertification.


After all of the logic/software changes, I wouldn't be surprised if MCAS never triggers ever on any 737 MAX for the entire service life of the fleet. I don't mean just not trigger erroneously, I mean that it will never trigger in regular service for the situations it is designed for because the aircraft should never be in the position where it is needed in normal revenue service.


The only time a pilot should ever experience MCAS activation is in the sim when we explore the ragged edges of the performance envelope. If MCAS activates on a revenue flight, it’s because something has gone terribly wrong.
 
Avgeek21
Posts: 377
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:44 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:20 am

birdbrainz wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
Having several hundred hours as PIC on the MAX since it’s return to service I can only say that based on my experience I’ve had zero issue with her. And these aircraft are making record daily utilization hours. The MAX nowadays is just like the NG; solid and reliable.

Same for me. Several hundred hours of PIC and ZERO issues. This is the best 737 yet. It flies like a dream, it’s quiet, and it sips fuel compared to the NG. My only complaint is how long it takes to start the new engines. But that’s an issue on the NEO as well, so nothing unique to the MAX. I would put my family on this Airplane anytime anywhere and have.


Great to hear. Haven't been on a MAX yet, but am eager.

One question: does there seem to be a general preference among pilots for flying the MAX over the NG, and is it enough to influence which flying you bid? I.e., if a trip had the max with slightly less favorable timings or cities, would you still bid it? Is the MAX9 as bad as the 900ER at gobbling up runway?


One hundred percent yes. My company has a lot of MAX’s and I also actively look for MAX sectors. Even after hundreds of hours on it I am still amazed how quiet she is. The only downside to it are that the LEAP engines let out so much oil vapor after shutdown it can be unpleasant at times doing the walkaround. Must be a nightmare too for ground handlers and refuelers.
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 2081
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:14 am

I wonder, was the reaction to the Al Jazeera documentary and the 787 the same as this? Foreign broadcaster just here to look for controversy - nothing to see here and if there was the FAA would have acted already - whistleblowers are only here to cause trouble and usually have grievances against Boeing and its personal for them? I think while we know programs like these are not going to go into technical detail because it will turn off viewers, dismissing them out of hand seems a little premature based off previous history when we had a documentary looking at issues at Boeing - looking at 787 deliveries for the last 2 years.
 
Daysleeper
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:43 am

Avgeek21 wrote:

One hundred percent yes. My company has a lot of MAX’s and I also actively look for MAX sectors. Even after hundreds of hours on it I am still amazed how quiet she is. The only downside to it are that the LEAP engines let out so much oil vapor after shutdown it can be unpleasant at times doing the walkaround. Must be a nightmare too for ground handlers and refuelers.


Are you referring to noise in the cabin or cockpit? I always thought the apparently noisy (I have not expiated it myself) 737 cockpit was due to the on coming air and an older understanding of aerodynamics. But I guess better insulation would help there too, and the combination of that and modern engines would definitely make a difference in the cabin.
 
StTim
Posts: 3990
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:57 am

planecane wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
The only thing that is worth looking into is the United airlines incident with pitch and altitude. does anyone know which flight that is? the article is failing to confirm but did an MCAS event get triggered? did an AOA sensor fail once again?


I posted the data link above from Ed Pierson, upon which this article is based. Here are the trim incidents he reported:

Upon intercepting the Glide Slope, the First Officer called for 'Flaps 15, Landing Gear down.' The
aircraft captured the glideslope uneventfully. Shortly after passing ZZZZZ, the First Officer called
for 'Flaps 30.' I selected Flaps 30 and as the flaps were moving to Flaps 30 the aircraft abruptly
pushed the nose over approximately 8 to 10 degrees down. NASA ASRS ACN 1802427


Resolution: Reporter stated that further data analysis showed the pitch down event was due to a glide slope drop out that was caused by another aircraft on the runway ready for departure. Reporter also stated that these types of glide slope losses were known to occasionally occur with this runway.

STAB OUT OF TRIM LIGHT CAME ON DURING CRUISE FLT. RAN QRH; DETERMINED MAIN ELEC
TRIM INOP. / R/R STAB TRIM MOTOR PER M/M 27-41-71 AND M/M 22-11-81 OP CKS GOOD.
ISSUE# 3402820OFF PART# 6355D0001-01 S/N OFF 20297ON PART# 6355D0001-01 S/N ON
20472 FAA SDR SWAA2021071693787


AIRCRAFT WAS GROUNDED: STABILIZER OUT OF TRIM PANEL LIGHT ILLUMINATED NEAR TOP OF
CLIMB AND AIRCRAFT WAS NOT TRIMMING NORMAL. FLIGHT DIVERTED TO MIA AND declared
emergency FOR PRECAUTIONS. FLIGHT WAS NOT OVERWEIGHT FOR LANDING. REMOVED AND
REPLACED STABILIZER TRIM MOTOR PER AMM 27-41-71 AS A PRECAUTION. PREFORMED
INTEGRITY CHECK OF WIRING FOUND CONNECTOR D381 OF M1659 STABILIZER TRIM MOTOR
NOT SECURE. RESECURED CONNECTOR FAA SDR AALA202106079024


I could not find the United Airlines incident that is referenced, it isn't in Pierson's data. I'm guessing it's actually the third incident reported above by American Airlines, where the pilot declared an emergency and returned to the airport. Technicians replaced the trim motor out of caution, and then found a loose connector.

I'm not aware of any MAX incidents that have triggered MCAS or involved an AoA sensor failure, since recertification.


After all of the logic/software changes, I wouldn't be surprised if MCAS never triggers ever on any 737 MAX for the entire service life of the fleet. I don't mean just not trigger erroneously, I mean that it will never trigger in regular service for the situations it is designed for because the aircraft should never be in the position where it is needed in normal revenue service.


That was always meant to be the case. To get to the original use case (and design case) you would be far outside the normal flight envelope.

Late changes and very poor design change control led to the disasters we had.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 959
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:27 am

enzo011 wrote:
I wonder, was the reaction to the Al Jazeera documentary and the 787 the same as this? Foreign broadcaster just here to look for controversy - nothing to see here and if there was the FAA would have acted already - whistleblowers are only here to cause trouble and usually have grievances against Boeing and its personal for them? I think while we know programs like these are not going to go into technical detail because it will turn off viewers, dismissing them out of hand seems a little premature based off previous history when we had a documentary looking at issues at Boeing - looking at 787 deliveries for the last 2 years.


Agreed that these reports shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. As I noted, the FAA investigates every one.

By the same token though, the results of the investigations should be accepted. In this case Ed Pierson had his claims reviewed by Boeing and the FAA, and they were not substantiated.

It's only when those claims are further shopped around to the media, that they become open to question and criticism. Pierson's claims have surfaced at the BBC, and now at ABC in Australia. They have appeared in minor outlets in the US as well, but not generally in the major outlets where they are properly vetted.

They got a huge boost in the Congressional hearings on the MAX accidents, where the inference was made that they are peripheral issues that lend weight to other allegations about the MAX. But again the FAA did not find them to be consequential in their MAX investigation.
 
Avgeek21
Posts: 377
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:44 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:33 am

Daysleeper wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:

One hundred percent yes. My company has a lot of MAX’s and I also actively look for MAX sectors. Even after hundreds of hours on it I am still amazed how quiet she is. The only downside to it are that the LEAP engines let out so much oil vapor after shutdown it can be unpleasant at times doing the walkaround. Must be a nightmare too for ground handlers and refuelers.


Are you referring to noise in the cabin or cockpit? I always thought the apparently noisy (I have not expiated it myself) 737 cockpit was due to the on coming air and an older understanding of aerodynamics. But I guess better insulation would help there too, and the combination of that and modern engines would definitely make a difference in the cabin.


In the cockpit. Also in the cabin though as I hear our cabin crew loves it as it's so nice and quiet down the back compared to our NG's. Upfront it's not just the noise level but also a different and less audible, frequency that really makes a difference. Most of the noise now are the cockpit recirculation fans.
So basically the engines are not just quieter but emit a different frequency that is far less audible and tiring.
 
AviationLuver
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:25 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:05 pm

Avgeek21 wrote:
Daysleeper wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:

One hundred percent yes. My company has a lot of MAX’s and I also actively look for MAX sectors. Even after hundreds of hours on it I am still amazed how quiet she is. The only downside to it are that the LEAP engines let out so much oil vapor after shutdown it can be unpleasant at times doing the walkaround. Must be a nightmare too for ground handlers and refuelers.


Are you referring to noise in the cabin or cockpit? I always thought the apparently noisy (I have not expiated it myself) 737 cockpit was due to the on coming air and an older understanding of aerodynamics. But I guess better insulation would help there too, and the combination of that and modern engines would definitely make a difference in the cabin.


In the cockpit. Also in the cabin though as I hear our cabin crew loves it as it's so nice and quiet down the back compared to our NG's. Upfront it's not just the noise level but also a different and less audible, frequency that really makes a difference. Most of the noise now are the cockpit recirculation fans.
So basically the engines are not just quieter but emit a different frequency that is far less audible and tiring.



Very fascinating. Thank you for sharing the information. I look forward to flying my first MAX. So far, they have alluded me!
 
Dtwramp
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:58 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:13 pm

One hundred percent yes. My company has a lot of MAX’s and I also actively look for MAX sectors. Even after hundreds of hours on it I am still amazed how quiet she is. The only downside to it are that the LEAP engines let out so much oil vapor after shutdown it can be unpleasant at times doing the walkaround. Must be a nightmare too for ground handlers and refuelers.[/quote]

I haven't noticed the oil vapor, but it is definitely quieter on the ramp.
 
DualQual
Posts: 791
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:10 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:28 pm

The radar on the Max is fantastic. The displays are really nice. It actually flies really nicely also. The second cup holder away from the trim wheel is welcome. These are the pros.

It’s still the same cramped crappy cockpit layout with no bag room and cramped torture device Jumpseat.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2716
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:12 am

Isn't the proof of the pudding the complete lack of incidents since the Max returned to service? I sure haven't heard of anything.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 959
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Ongoing Issues

Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:45 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
Isn't the proof of the pudding the complete lack of incidents since the Max returned to service? I sure haven't heard of anything.


The MAX has been monitored and reviewed by the FAA since recertification. Looking at the incident reports in the various flight databases, at AVHerald, and from Ed Pierson's data, it seems about average in terms of events in the air.

There have been incidents where the pilots returned to the airport or did not complete their flight by landing early at other than the destination. But that is common across most commercial aircraft, and by itself, does not indicate a problem.

At recertification, FAA Administrator Dickson explained that the MAX would likely have statistically routine problems, and that it would likely make the news when it did. But that wouldn't imply a safety issue with the aircraft.

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