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chrisp390
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US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:55 pm

https://havanatimes.org/features/us-air ... nicaragua/

The article explains that US airlines are not happy with the rules being imposed on them to operate into Nicaragua. Some of these rules include submitting passenger lists in Excel format 72 hours before departure to get approval to bring each passenger to Nicaragua. Non vaccinated crew also require a negative PCR test in order to be allowed entry.

Despite this the article claims the Avianca, Mexicana and Copa have returned to Nicaragua and are making good money as fares between Nicaragua and the US have increased substantially.
 
dfw88
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:33 pm

Given that Mexicana went out of business in 2010 I'd highly doubt they're flying to Nicaragua right now. :D
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:14 pm

They want manifests in an Excel sheet? Bro, it's 2022...
 
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Polot
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:18 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
They want manifests in an Excel sheet? Bro, it's 2022...

With how ancient half of aviation software/systems are Excel might be too modern…
Last edited by Polot on Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ooslc
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:19 pm

I'm thinking they meant Aeromexico :lol:
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:28 pm

I noticed the lack of schedules into MGA last week. They all seem to be returning in the fall at this point, but I’m thinking they will cancel if the rules stay in place. I think that in the light of the rules, the US should subject AV/TA to the same ones for flights from Nicaragua. That, or to force the issue, disallow AV/TA to operate flights to the US from MGA until the rules are changed. Of course, the Feds never seem to react quickly enough to uncompetitive treatment.
 
Brickell305
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:09 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
I noticed the lack of schedules into MGA last week. They all seem to be returning in the fall at this point, but I’m thinking they will cancel if the rules stay in place. I think that in the light of the rules, the US should subject AV/TA to the same ones for flights from Nicaragua. That, or to force the issue, disallow AV/TA to operate flights to the US from MGA until the rules are changed. Of course, the Feds never seem to react quickly enough to uncompetitive treatment.

How is it anticompetitive if all airlines are subject to the same regulations?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:52 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
uncompetitive treatment.


Curious what the uncompetitive treatment is?

Seems Nicaragua's entry requirements are applied across the board to all the airlines.

Asking for customer Covid test results, and airlines to submit advance passenger manifest (a common global practice) seems like a pretty vanilla ask.

Sure maybe Excel is not 21st-century efficiency versus some form of API data transfer, but don't see what is uncompetitive treatment here.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:56 am

LAXintl wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
uncompetitive treatment.


Curious what the uncompetitive treatment is?

Seems Nicaragua's entry requirements are applied across the board to all the airlines.

Asking for customer Covid test results, and airlines to submit advance passenger manifest (a common global practice) seems like a pretty vanilla ask.

Sure maybe Excel is not 21st-century efficiency versus some form of API data transfer, but don't see what is uncompetitive treatment here.


As the article stated, most of AV’s pax originate in Miami while the others have mostly connecting traffic. It’s therefore easier for AV to deal with pax that are denied boarding than those whose passengers have arrived from elsewhere, as the US3 have to pay for rebookings, hotels, etc. if someone is barred entry. The US3 obviously did not think it would be financially sound to serve Nicaragua in this situation, so now Nicaragua has a monopoly on its hands that is costing its citizens millions. That means it’s uncompetitive.
 
bennett123
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:42 am

Are you saying it is uncompetitive because the US3 opted not to compete.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:45 pm

[*]
bennett123 wrote:
Are you saying it is uncompetitive because the US3 opted not to compete.


I’m saying that Nicaragua created a situation that made it impossible for the US3 and NK to serve Nicaragua. If Nicaragua participated in APIS, which is industry-standard, the US3 and NK might be able to work with the government on this. Otherwise, they cannot serve the country in the current context.
 
bennett123
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:36 pm

Doesn't Nicaragua, as a sovereign state have the power to make it's own rules.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:13 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
[*]
bennett123 wrote:
Are you saying it is uncompetitive because the US3 opted not to compete.


I’m saying that Nicaragua created a situation that made it impossible for the US3 and NK to serve Nicaragua. If Nicaragua participated in APIS, which is industry-standard, the US3 and NK might be able to work with the government on this. Otherwise, they cannot serve the country in the current context.


Having someone at the airline slap together an Excel file for each flight is that big of a barrier? Sounds like laziness or excuses to me.
 
johns624
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:18 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Doesn't Nicaragua, as a sovereign state have the power to make it's own rules.
Yes, it does. The airlines also have the right to choose to serve a route, or not. If it's low performing, why bother?
 
Brickell305
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:41 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
[*]
bennett123 wrote:
Are you saying it is uncompetitive because the US3 opted not to compete.


I’m saying that Nicaragua created a situation that made it impossible for the US3 and NK to serve Nicaragua. If Nicaragua participated in APIS, which is industry-standard, the US3 and NK might be able to work with the government on this. Otherwise, they cannot serve the country in the current context.


Having someone at the airline slap together an Excel file for each flight is that big of a barrier? Sounds like laziness or excuses to me.

That’s exactly what it sounds like to me too
 
Janj
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:01 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
uncompetitive treatment.


Curious what the uncompetitive treatment is?

Seems Nicaragua's entry requirements are applied across the board to all the airlines.

Asking for customer Covid test results, and airlines to submit advance passenger manifest (a common global practice) seems like a pretty vanilla ask.

Sure maybe Excel is not 21st-century efficiency versus some form of API data transfer, but don't see what is uncompetitive treatment here.


As the article stated, most of AV’s pax originate in Miami while the others have mostly connecting traffic. It’s therefore easier for AV to deal with pax that are denied boarding than those whose passengers have arrived from elsewhere, as the US3 have to pay for rebookings, hotels, etc. if someone is barred entry. The US3 obviously did not think it would be financially sound to serve Nicaragua in this situation, so now Nicaragua has a monopoly on its hands that is costing its citizens millions. That means it’s uncompetitive.


Is this something confirmed or just suspected? As in, does anyone know how far in advance of the flight the government sends back the passenger list? It doesn't make sense that they would send it back just before departure, I would think it would at least be several hours in advance or maybe the day before.

Additionally, if this is really the case, nothing is stopping AA, NK, etc. from offering flights without allowing connections, if they really wanted to fly to MGA.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:46 pm

This thread has really only proved two things, as usual: the anti-US sentiment is strong (jealousy is a stinky cologne) and that posters can’t or won’t bother to read anything before posting vitriol

What part about sending said excel file 72 HOURS PRIOR is so hard to understand? What airline on God’s green earth has a final pax manifest that far in advance??? And what other country on said earth requires that except for Nicaragua?
 
Tack
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:42 pm

airportugal310 wrote:
This thread has really only proved two things, as usual: the anti-US sentiment is strong (jealousy is a stinky cologne) and that posters can’t or won’t bother to read anything before posting vitriol

What part about sending said excel file 72 HOURS PRIOR is so hard to understand? What airline on God’s green earth has a final pax manifest that far in advance??? And what other country on said earth requires that except for Nicaragua?


Bingo!
 
rbavfan
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:54 am

usdcaguy wrote:
[*]
bennett123 wrote:
Are you saying it is uncompetitive because the US3 opted not to compete.


I’m saying that Nicaragua created a situation that made it impossible for the US3 and NK to serve Nicaragua. If Nicaragua participated in APIS, which is industry-standard, the US3 and NK might be able to work with the government on this. Otherwise, they cannot serve the country in the current context.


The post you commented on seems the situation you're having true issues with is that they are requiring a COVID test to still enter. Odd that it's the real reason for the regulations, but that you avoided that part of it in your comments says alot.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:23 am

airportugal310 wrote:
What airline on God’s green earth has a final pax manifest that far in advance??? And what other country on said earth requires that except for Nicaragua?


Multiple countries do.

Without getting into details, the U.S. requires a pre-arrival and also a day of departure manifest details covering all passengers and crew members to allow for vetting.

While this is an automated batch process, and not an excel, there are several layers for reporting and data sharing for the U.S. occurring to satisfy DHS/CBP/TSA requirements as soon as 4-days in advance.
 
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usxguy
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:38 am

It really isn't that hard for a good DCS (Departure Control System) to output all the APIS information into an excel spreadsheet and email/TTY the thing to the proper authorities. It really isn't rocket science - might take an IT department a *day* to configure this.
 
Vicenza
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:57 am

airportugal310 wrote:

What part about sending said excel file 72 HOURS PRIOR is so hard to understand? What airline on God’s green earth has a final pax manifest that far in advance??? And what other country on said earth requires that except for Nicaragua?


The US itself has demanded and required passenger manifests from every airline even overflying its airspace, much less landing, otherwise access is denied.
So why does the US3 feel they should be exempt from other countries' requirements? They are choosing not to comply but, as usual, still crying foul and their old watchword of 'anti-competitive.
 
Toinou
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:22 am

Vicenza wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:

What part about sending said excel file 72 HOURS PRIOR is so hard to understand? What airline on God’s green earth has a final pax manifest that far in advance??? And what other country on said earth requires that except for Nicaragua?


The US itself has demanded and required passenger manifests from every airline even overflying its airspace, much less landing, otherwise access is denied.
So why does the US3 feel they should be exempt from other countries' requirements? They are choosing not to comply but, as usual, still crying foul and their old watchword of 'anti-competitive.

I think that it's not anti-American to point that USA did play a good part in increasing the requirements in that area for years. Everyone accepted because it's a huge market (and because, you know, "9/11"...) but when it's coming from another country, suddenly there are complaints.
 
jjbiv
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:24 am

If there was money to be made flying to Nicaragua and US airlines could staff the flying, the carriers would find a way to make it happen. The PCR CoVID-19 test requirement for non-vacinated crew is more problematic than the requirement to send a passenger manifest in Excel format three days before departure, in my opinion.
 
santi319
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:51 am

jjbiv wrote:
If there was money to be made flying to Nicaragua and US airlines could staff the flying, the carriers would find a way to make it happen. The PCR CoVID-19 test requirement for non-vacinated crew is more problematic than the requirement to send a passenger manifest in Excel format three days before departure, in my opinion.


Is it? The entire cabin crews of United are vaccinated, for example, so this can’t be the only reason.
 
SJOtoLIR
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:34 am

The commercial flights between the USA and Central America is being regulated upon the open skies agreement.
However, Nicaraguan rules are different compared to the other Central American countries as pointing out above.
Prior to the Covid-19 crisis, some US airlines had started to stop their regular services there, due to the known social and political inestability, back in 2018.
Spirit Airlines had previously announced the resumption of NK FLL-MGA, in June 2022. This idea hasn't come into fruition.
AV SAL-MGA-MIA 14x weekly is currently the sole commercial segment linking the mentioned countries.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:55 am

SJOtoLIR wrote:
The commercial flights between the USA and Central America is being regulated upon the open skies agreement.
However, Nicaraguan rules are different compared to the other Central American countries as pointing out above.
Prior to the Covid-19 crisis, some US airlines had started to stop their regular services there, due to the known social and political inestability, back in 2018.
Spirit Airlines had previously announced the resumption of NK FLL-MGA, in June 2022. This idea hasn't come into fruition.
AV SAL-MGA-MIA 14x weekly is currently the sole commercial segment linking the mentioned countries.


MGA is different than most Central American markets in that its extremely South Florida centric. Its not like SAL or GUA where demand is spread over many major markets. MGA is pretty well just South Florida.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:10 am

airportugal310 wrote:
This thread has really only proved two things, as usual: the anti-US sentiment is strong (jealousy is a stinky cologne) and that posters can’t or won’t bother to read anything before posting vitriol

What part about sending said excel file 72 HOURS PRIOR is so hard to understand? What airline on God’s green earth has a final pax manifest that far in advance??? And what other country on said earth requires that except for Nicaragua?


LOL!

LAXintl wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
What airline on God’s green earth has a final pax manifest that far in advance??? And what other country on said earth requires that except for Nicaragua?


Multiple countries do.

Without getting into details, the U.S. requires a pre-arrival and also a day of departure manifest details covering all passengers and crew members to allow for vetting.

While this is an automated batch process, and not an excel, there are several layers for reporting and data sharing for the U.S. occurring to satisfy DHS/CBP/TSA requirements as soon as 4-days in advance.



Exactly. And there's a lot more details that could be gotten into, it's all public info. I'm just lazy rn. The US -was- more onerous than many other countries with regard to arrival and overflight manifests. Many countries have pretty much copied what the US does though.

--------------------------

Overall. Yeah, I read the article. It's a bunch of whatever mess. The author is just regurgitating all the difficulties of running any international flight.

$900-1000 for MGA-MIA RT in Y seems steep. Maybe it's a combination of lack of available aircraft/crew and the average profit margin on Managua flights that are keeping carriers away. AA doing MIA-MGA is a no brainer. I'm sure they'll get around to it when they have available ac and crew.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:11 am

usxguy wrote:
It really isn't that hard for a good DCS (Departure Control System) to output all the APIS information into an excel spreadsheet and email/TTY the thing to the proper authorities. It really isn't rocket science - might take an IT department a *day* to configure this.


THIS. This would be easy for some competent IT folks to configure.
 
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spinkid
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:28 am

"Some of these rules include submitting passenger lists in Excel format 72 hours before departure"

This would seem to cause a huge problem. Means you can't sell any seats 3 days prior. missed connections? Business pax who want to rebook?.
 
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stl07
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:32 am

airportugal310 wrote:
This thread has really only proved two things, as usual: the anti-US sentiment is strong (jealousy is a stinky cologne) and that posters can’t or won’t bother to read anything before posting vitriol

What part about sending said excel file 72 HOURS PRIOR is so hard to understand? What airline on God’s green earth has a final pax manifest that far in advance??? And what other country on said earth requires that except for Nicaragua?

Do you live in the US? If you did, you would understand that bashing US airlines is not anti-US sentiment because our airlines are privately owned. Bashing QR is anti-Qatari, bashing UA is anti-UAH.
 
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spinkid
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:41 am

"Some of these rules include submitting passenger lists in Excel format 72 hours before departure"

This would seem to cause a huge problem. Means you can't sell any seats 3 days prior. missed connections? Business pax who want to rebook?.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:40 am

spinkid wrote:
"Some of these rules include submitting passenger lists in Excel format 72 hours before departure"

This would seem to cause a huge problem. Means you can't sell any seats 3 days prior. missed connections? Business pax who want to rebook?.


It does not mean that. For most places you need to send a list say 72-96 hrs out, you might need to send another one 24 hrs, you might need to send another one 90 minutes, you might need to send a final one once the aircraft is secured and about to pushback. In each of these timeframes, the gov involved can come back and reject or "classify" a passenger or crew member. They can reject said person, clear them, or subject them to additional search depending on ... well... anything concerning the whatever that country wants to do with international visitors and immigrants.

If you think a 72 hr pre-flight excel sheet is onerous, you have no idea what some countries (the US) require of carriers to submit for inbound passengers and crew.

For an established airline with ability to handle this, it isn't really an issue.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:59 am

Vicenza wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:

What part about sending said excel file 72 HOURS PRIOR is so hard to understand? What airline on God’s green earth has a final pax manifest that far in advance??? And what other country on said earth requires that except for Nicaragua?


The US itself has demanded and required passenger manifests from every airline even overflying its airspace, much less landing, otherwise access is denied.
So why does the US3 feel they should be exempt from other countries' requirements? They are choosing not to comply but, as usual, still crying foul and their old watchword of 'anti-competitive.


There is probably more to the story here. The US3 likely don’t want to reveal passengers’ information in a format that violates their privacy rights. APIS data is designed to restrict API to certain elements so that only the most essential information is shared. It’s possible the information on the spreadsheet included fields for customer data that is restricted.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3330
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

Re: US Airlines Not Ready To Return To Nicaragua

Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:34 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
MGA is pretty well just South Florida.

South Florida - Managua is certainly the main market linking the United States and Nicaragua.
However, NK FLL-MGA is not working yet. Spirit has been operating in Nicaragua, almost 15 years ago.
Speaking about other available markets in the past, UA IAH-MGA has been missing from the radar.
DL ATL-MGA doesn't operate since 2018.
Other seasonal and tiny routes like MGA-LAX are not in service anymore.
I cannot remember any airline serving New York City area - Managua before.

Regards.

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