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NZ516
Posts: 1279
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:24 am

a7ala wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
While AKL airport postpones the terminal project. They will instead invest in building a new $200m shopping center with 100 stores to open in 2024.

https://www.shoppingcentrenews.com.au/l ... -shopping/


You do realise they have got nothing to do with each other right? The shopping centre is a commercial development funded by the airport. The Terminal will be funded by the airlines. I bet if yiou asked the airlines if they would like to pay for a shiny new terminal there wouldnt be much support in the current financially challenged environment.

All of the aero-related developments at airports need to ultimately be paid for by the airlines and passengers.


The money is being spent on other non core projects while the most important project keeps getting kicked down the road. They have been doing this for decades now. I dont buy the argument that its not a good time they use that same excuse countless times before. A new terminal will also have retail leases that will earn the airport company money. How can both Christchurch and Wellington airports fund new domestic terminals in the last 10-20 years while Auckland airport which has more flights and more revenue coming in can't afford it. I don't by that reason as valid that its not warranted. They can fund it through borrowing as CHC and WLG plus many other airports in NZ managed to fund their recent terminal upgrades with far less revenue coming in than AKL. Its just a different mindset that is holding it back!
 
zkncj
Posts: 4676
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:17 am

NZ516 wrote:
a7ala wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
While AKL airport postpones the terminal project. They will instead invest in building a new $200m shopping center with 100 stores to open in 2024.

https://www.shoppingcentrenews.com.au/l ... -shopping/


You do realise they have got nothing to do with each other right? The shopping centre is a commercial development funded by the airport. The Terminal will be funded by the airlines. I bet if yiou asked the airlines if they would like to pay for a shiny new terminal there wouldnt be much support in the current financially challenged environment.

All of the aero-related developments at airports need to ultimately be paid for by the airlines and passengers.


The money is being spent on other non core projects while the most important project keeps getting kicked down the road. They have been doing this for decades now. I dont buy the argument that its not a good time they use that same excuse countless times before. A new terminal will also have retail leases that will earn the airport company money. How can both Christchurch and Wellington airports fund new domestic terminals in the last 10-20 years while Auckland airport which has more flights and more revenue coming in can't afford it. I don't by that reason as valid that its not warranted. They can fund it through borrowing as CHC and WLG plus many other airports in NZ managed to fund their recent terminal upgrades with far less revenue coming in than AKL. Its just a different mindset that is holding it back!


With no real competition, there really is no incentive for AIAL todo anything more that the basics.

I really think Auckland missed the boat, 10-15 years ago with not protecting any land for a second airport.

15 years ago, it probably wasn’t needed but give it another 15-20 years and we probably will.

We let Whenupai be built in my houses, that is long gone from being a airport site.

HLZ is in the middle of no where, with poor public transport links currently.

The fact the daily train from Hamilton to Auckland, takes 2.5hrs rules out that being any hope.
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 2068
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:37 pm

zkncj wrote:
I really think Auckland missed the boat, 10-15 years ago with not protecting any land for a second airport.

We absolutely don't need another airport and to think that a competitor to AKL would invest mega-dollars in one is pure fantasy. We just need the airport that we have brought up to an acceptable standard - specifically the domestic terminal, which was originally built in 1965 as a temporary facility until it could take on its long-term intended purpose as a cargo shed. AIAL is making what it believes to be commercially appropriate decisions - and from that perspective they're probably doing the right thing. If we want them to act in a way that priorities the public good, then we'd need to take the airport back into public ownership. But then the airport risks becoming a political football, like public transport infrastructure. No easy answers.
 
NZ6
Posts: 2187
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:49 am

DavidByrne wrote:
zkncj wrote:
I really think Auckland missed the boat, 10-15 years ago with not protecting any land for a second airport.

We absolutely don't need another airport and to think that a competitor to AKL would invest mega-dollars in one is pure fantasy. We just need the airport that we have brought up to an acceptable standard - specifically the domestic terminal, which was originally built in 1965 as a temporary facility until it could take on its long-term intended purpose as a cargo shed. AIAL is making what it believes to be commercially appropriate decisions - and from that perspective they're probably doing the right thing. If we want them to act in a way that priorities the public good, then we'd need to take the airport back into public ownership. But then the airport risks becoming a political football, like public transport infrastructure. No easy answers.


To be fair, I don't think anyone suggested who was funding it and so forth.

It wouldn't only been in the late 1990's when Whenuapai was seriously debated as being an alternative airport. Dear I say it, we had some foresight and turned it down based on noise issues for residents on the North Shore.

But with the airbase being ever so slowly suffocated by urban development and more and more people move north one could question if we've missed an opportunity or if it still exists. Even a dual civil/military airfield.

I've got friends living in Warkworth, commuting to the Shore and it's very common from all accounts. That's 90-120mins to the airport depending on time of day.

I recall this debate maybe a year ago.

Central of Local government will never fund this on it's own but could thee be other ways.

But it'll never happen. Short answer is no so I agree with you.

I still wonder if private ownership of terminal space is the way forward.
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 2068
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:31 pm

NZ6 wrote:
I've got friends living in Warkworth, commuting to the Shore and it's very common from all accounts. That's 90-120mins to the airport depending on time of day.

The thing is, though, that many, many places are further from an airport than 120 minutes. We can't build airports to suit everyone, and I honestly don't think we should try - or even use this as an argument. If people choose, for whatever reason, to live in locations which have poor access to air travel, so be it. Or am I being unduly harsh?
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 1247
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:37 pm

DavidByrne wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
I've got friends living in Warkworth, commuting to the Shore and it's very common from all accounts. That's 90-120mins to the airport depending on time of day.

The thing is, though, that many, many places are further from an airport than 120 minutes. We can't build airports to suit everyone, and I honestly don't think we should try - or even use this as an argument. If people choose, for whatever reason, to live in locations which have poor access to air travel, so be it. Or am I being unduly harsh?


Honestly I think you're being perfectly reasonable. Part of the problem is for generations we've been told that cars should have rapid access to anywhere you want to go and that everything else is secondary to cars. Between global warming and simply running out of space for more roads more and more people are seeing that cars are not the panacea to everything. For somewhere like Auckland there should be a solid spine of regional rail that can get you from the north of Auckland to the airport in an hour or so with one or two changes. But to build that we have to move funds from simply building more roads. And that makes people angry who are currently addicted to cars and want any change to be perfect and instant.
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 2068
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:01 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
I've got friends living in Warkworth, commuting to the Shore and it's very common from all accounts. That's 90-120mins to the airport depending on time of day.

The thing is, though, that many, many places are further from an airport than 120 minutes. We can't build airports to suit everyone, and I honestly don't think we should try - or even use this as an argument. If people choose, for whatever reason, to live in locations which have poor access to air travel, so be it. Or am I being unduly harsh?


Honestly I think you're being perfectly reasonable. Part of the problem is for generations we've been told that cars should have rapid access to anywhere you want to go and that everything else is secondary to cars. Between global warming and simply running out of space for more roads more and more people are seeing that cars are not the panacea to everything. For somewhere like Auckland there should be a solid spine of regional rail that can get you from the north of Auckland to the airport in an hour or so with one or two changes. But to build that we have to move funds from simply building more roads. And that makes people angry who are currently addicted to cars and want any change to be perfect and instant.

Another argument for building some kind of rapid transit (I don't even care any more whether bus, rail, light rail, surface, tunnelled or elevated - just get it done) to the airport yesterday. And no, the nonstop Ritchies bus doesn't cut it at all.
 
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zkojq
Posts: 5041
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:37 am

NZ516 wrote:

I had to do the trek recently between the terminals before the bus starts at 5am. There is currently no formal route now, so you have to guess the way and I ended up partly pushing my trolley on a busy road as there was no foot path on the section I was on. Not an easy thing to do in the wind and rain and on coming traffic.


This situation is a total joke. Completely unacceptable yet also rather emblematic of AIAL Management's attitude to such things. "She'll be right".

zkncj wrote:
The new domestic pier must be going to be pretty amazing then if it will take 5 years to build? hopefully they have pre-ordered there gib now so it wont delay them any further in 2029.


:rotfl: :rotfl: You sir win this thread.

Seriously though, you have a good point. Gates 17-19 took an eternity to be built. I don't remember specifically but I want to say it was 2.5 years. Aerorobnz (what happened to him btw - really miss his contributions here) said a few years ago that AIAL would rather spend $100m a year for four years to do a project than to spend $300m and get it done right in a year.

zkncj wrote:
Surely they can build an multi-level box with a couple of air bridges in more like 12-18months?

I'm sure in the next 5 years the International duty free/retail will be rebuilt atleast twice.

:checkmark: It really shouldn't be hard.
 
NZ321
Posts: 1561
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:56 pm

zkojq wrote:
NZ516 wrote:

I had to do the trek recently between the terminals before the bus starts at 5am. There is currently no formal route now, so you have to guess the way and I ended up partly pushing my trolley on a busy road as there was no foot path on the section I was on. Not an easy thing to do in the wind and rain and on coming traffic.


This situation is a total joke. Completely unacceptable yet also rather emblematic of AIAL Management's attitude to such things. "She'll be right".

zkncj wrote:
The new domestic pier must be going to be pretty amazing then if it will take 5 years to build? hopefully they have pre-ordered there gib now so it wont delay them any further in 2029.


:rotfl: :rotfl: You sir win this thread.

Seriously though, you have a good point. Gates 17-19 took an eternity to be built. I don't remember specifically but I want to say it was 2.5 years. Aerorobnz (what happened to him btw - really miss his contributions here) said a few years ago that AIAL would rather spend $100m a year for four years to do a project than to spend $300m and get it done right in a year.

zkncj wrote:
Surely they can build an multi-level box with a couple of air bridges in more like 12-18months?

I'm sure in the next 5 years the International duty free/retail will be rebuilt atleast twice.

:checkmark: It really shouldn't be hard.


I've given up on New Zealand and infrastructure. It was a nice dream. Now I live overseas. And when I fly into NZ which nearly always involves seeing family around the country, I try and use CHC as much as possible over AKL.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14301
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:20 pm

zkncj wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
a7ala wrote:

You do realise they have got nothing to do with each other right? The shopping centre is a commercial development funded by the airport. The Terminal will be funded by the airlines. I bet if yiou asked the airlines if they would like to pay for a shiny new terminal there wouldnt be much support in the current financially challenged environment.

All of the aero-related developments at airports need to ultimately be paid for by the airlines and passengers.


The money is being spent on other non core projects while the most important project keeps getting kicked down the road. They have been doing this for decades now. I dont buy the argument that its not a good time they use that same excuse countless times before. A new terminal will also have retail leases that will earn the airport company money. How can both Christchurch and Wellington airports fund new domestic terminals in the last 10-20 years while Auckland airport which has more flights and more revenue coming in can't afford it. I don't by that reason as valid that its not warranted. They can fund it through borrowing as CHC and WLG plus many other airports in NZ managed to fund their recent terminal upgrades with far less revenue coming in than AKL. Its just a different mindset that is holding it back!


With no real competition, there really is no incentive for AIAL todo anything more that the basics.

I really think Auckland missed the boat, 10-15 years ago with not protecting any land for a second airport.

15 years ago, it probably wasn’t needed but give it another 15-20 years and we probably will.

We let Whenupai be built in my houses, that is long gone from being a airport site.

HLZ is in the middle of no where, with poor public transport links currently.

The fact the daily train from Hamilton to Auckland, takes 2.5hrs rules out that being any hope.


Gardermoen has no real competition near Oslo but when you look at what they have and what we have to put up with it’s night and day different.
 
a7ala
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:27 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:31 pm

Change of date to August thread?
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14301
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:33 pm

Air NZ has a level of elite flyer that’s limited to 100 CEO selected individuals, with secret invite only lounges in Auckland and Sydney.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/300 ... ible-perks
 
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Zkpilot
Posts: 4723
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:44 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Air NZ has a level of elite flyer that’s limited to 100 CEO selected individuals, with secret invite only lounges in Auckland and Sydney.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/300 ... ible-perks

Yeah it’s called EP1 (the equivalent of QFs Chairman’s Lounge) has been around for a decade or so.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2883
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:31 pm

DavidByrne wrote:
zkncj wrote:
I really think Auckland missed the boat, 10-15 years ago with not protecting any land for a second airport.

We absolutely don't need another airport and to think that a competitor to AKL would invest mega-dollars in one is pure fantasy. We just need the airport that we have brought up to an acceptable standard - specifically the domestic terminal, which was originally built in 1965 as a temporary facility until it could take on its long-term intended purpose as a cargo shed. AIAL is making what it believes to be commercially appropriate decisions - and from that perspective they're probably doing the right thing. If we want them to act in a way that priorities the public good, then we'd need to take the airport back into public ownership. But then the airport risks becoming a political football, like public transport infrastructure. No easy answers.


A very public sector mindset. Public ownership is not the only go-to solution to deliver public good. With the right type of owner then private ownership does just as well if not better.

It was the Clark Government that blocked the Canadian pension fund from purchasing AIAL back in the oughts, which had a track record of long term investments and foresight. Now we're left with an ownership structure that incentivises management to focus on quarterly or annual returns to shareholders, rather than making long term investments that will pay off in future years.

So in lieu of public ownership or private ownership with long term vision, the only other option was competition, which Whenuapai absolutely offered, albeit to a limit likely on low frequency domestic and low cost short haul international.

So another strategic clusterdump by governments.
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 2068
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:19 am

aerokiwi wrote:
Public ownership is not the only go-to solution to deliver public good. With the right type of owner then private ownership does just as well if not better.

Don't disagree in principle, but if you're looking to prioritise "public good" it's hard to establish proper accountability to the public if it's under any form of private ownership, even a pension fund. Their view of what "public good" means may absolutely not relate to the public's view. Just sayin' . . .
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 1247
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:15 am

It is also hard to have something stable like that for a long term period as desires and expectations change, the teams making up and leading the organizations change, etc. If you can somehow identify a solid and reliable method for inter-generational investment and management, then you will have found something that will totally change humanity.

In the meantime we can just keep moving to use regulations to incentivize the behavior and investment we're after. Stuff like congestion charging to fund public transport. Vehicle mass and size charging to minimize the energy used to move around. Carbon taxes to incentivize research into less polluting systems throughout the whole transport sector. Taxes on companies who exist primarily to operate X but a significant amount of their profit comes from and unrelated Y.

The problem with that set of ideas is that I can bet you that some of what I think is sensible is something you think will destroy the economy for no useful benefit. So it quickly ends up not being nearly as simple and easy as we want it to be.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2883
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:40 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
It is also hard to have something stable like that for a long term period as desires and expectations change, the teams making up and leading the organizations change, etc. If you can somehow identify a solid and reliable method for inter-generational investment and management, then you will have found something that will totally change humanity.

In the meantime we can just keep moving to use regulations to incentivize the behavior and investment we're after. Stuff like congestion charging to fund public transport. Vehicle mass and size charging to minimize the energy used to move around. Carbon taxes to incentivize research into less polluting systems throughout the whole transport sector. Taxes on companies who exist primarily to operate X but a significant amount of their profit comes from and unrelated Y.

The problem with that set of ideas is that I can bet you that some of what I think is sensible is something you think will destroy the economy for no useful benefit. So it quickly ends up not being nearly as simple and easy as we want it to be.


That assumes regulation is the answer, when it's only part of the puzzle. And none of that applies, or is even legally coherent, to a privately listed infrastructure owner. We privatised to the worst kind of private investment for long-term investment (almost - private equity would be worse), eliminated any hope of a competitive threat in Whenuapai (even if just a leveraged threat) and went with light touch regulation all the way. So we shouldn't be surprised that a lacklustre temporary shed is now a primary domestic hub and a rabbit warren hodge podge of a building with piecemeal additions is our gateway to the world (note - arrived last Saturday and loved the mix and match style of furniture in the departure lounges - quality stuff).

In this case I'd argue that a combined, modern, accessible domestic and international terminal complex leaving room for a true freighter hub (Amazon Prime, anyone?) is very much an alignment of the stars for both private investors with long-term horizons and the public expectation.
 
NZ516
Posts: 1279
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:34 am

Kiwirob wrote:
zkncj wrote:
NZ516 wrote:

The money is being spent on other non core projects while the most important project keeps getting kicked down the road. They have been doing this for decades now. I dont buy the argument that its not a good time they use that same excuse countless times before. A new terminal will also have retail leases that will earn the airport company money. How can both Christchurch and Wellington airports fund new domestic terminals in the last 10-20 years while Auckland airport which has more flights and more revenue coming in can't afford it. I don't by that reason as valid that its not warranted. They can fund it through borrowing as CHC and WLG plus many other airports in NZ managed to fund their recent terminal upgrades with far less revenue coming in than AKL. Its just a different mindset that is holding it back!


With no real competition, there really is no incentive for AIAL todo anything more that the basics.

I really think Auckland missed the boat, 10-15 years ago with not protecting any land for a second airport.

15 years ago, it probably wasn’t needed but give it another 15-20 years and we probably will.

We let Whenupai be built in my houses, that is long gone from being a airport site.

HLZ is in the middle of no where, with poor public transport links currently.

The fact the daily train from Hamilton to Auckland, takes 2.5hrs rules out that being any hope.


Gardermoen has no real competition near Oslo but when you look at what they have and what we have to put up with it’s night and day different.


Totally agree 100%. I think Norway is the benchmark for other countries to follow. They have some amazing regional airports as well.
 
NZ516
Posts: 1279
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:40 am

https://youtu.be/blDXP95SMS8

A 13 min doco story on the Tarras airport plans. I sincerely doubt the economically viability of this proposal now. The export cherry season is just a two month period so not much cargo likely for the other 10 months of the year.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14301
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:16 am

NZ516 wrote:
https://youtu.be/blDXP95SMS8

A 13 min doco story on the Tarras airport plans. I sincerely doubt the economically viability of this proposal now. The export cherry season is just a two month period so not much cargo likely for the other 10 months of the year.


I think the bigger point is IVC and DUD might not be usable in the future, Tarra’s with proper infrastructure, ie electrified rail to the population centres it would service makes a lot of sense.

If CIAL really wants this to go ahead getting Ngai Tahu involved would get it done.
 
777ER
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - July 2022

Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:37 am

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