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johns624
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Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:26 pm

meh130 wrote:
I am surprised too. Delta's 737-900ERs have 180 passengers, 20 FC and 160 Y/Y+. Delta's 737 MAX 10s will gain only two more passengers.
Maybe Delta listened to their customers and are going to give them more legroom or another toilet.
 
ethernal
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:49 pm

johns624 wrote:
meh130 wrote:
I am surprised too. Delta's 737-900ERs have 180 passengers, 20 FC and 160 Y/Y+. Delta's 737 MAX 10s will gain only two more passengers.
Maybe Delta listened to their customers and are going to give them more legroom or another toilet.


While I would like to think that is the case, I'm skeptical. I do think it probably comes down to planned mission profile. As others have noted, this seems meant to replace A320, 738, and already retired MD90 capacity. I am sure that Delta will market it as a premium, low density cabin but I think that is a side effect of how they intend to use the plane. If Delta felt they needed 192 seats on the plane, they would have squeezed them in somehow.

I do think they realized the 739 mistake of too few C+ seats. But that doesn't explain all of the missing capacity.

Unless they get a mid-cabin lav, adjusting seat density is a relatively easy. If the mission profile changes, I'm sure Delta can creatively cram in a few extra seats.
 
nycbjr
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:45 am

Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:57 pm

also lets remember that there is lots of time for them to change their minds and cram in more seats, or down the line reconfiguring them.. they also announced the refurb of the lion air 900ers maybe those will debut with a new less dense layout with more premium?
 
sxf24
Posts: 1985
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Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:08 pm

ethernal wrote:
As a frequent Delta flyer I am disappointed that that they are buying these, but it was inevitable - there was no way Delta was going to avoid a good deal and the overhaul business.

That said, if Delta sticks with the 182 seat config, I doubt performance will be an issue for 99% of Delta's routes despite some of the concerns posted here. Between the low density and the fact that Delta won't be stretching the plane's legs on most routes, it will have more than enough performance besides a few edge airports. 20-25% extra thrust at takeoff can carry a lot of extra frame and pax load, especially since fuel consumption is probably actually lower than the 737-800 despite being heavier (although I haven't done the math).

I am very interested to see the final 182 seat config. By modern standards, that is very spacious. It will be interesting to see where the space goes.


United is at 189. Perhaps DL is going for a more comfortable F pitch to compete with AS (rather than the current standard of 37”) and providing a full-sized galley in the back rather than the compressed layouts seen on other recent deliveries.

Regardless, DL is saying per-seat economics are better than the -900ER, which says a lot about efficiency.
 
questions
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:19 pm

ethernal wrote:
johns624 wrote:
meh130 wrote:
I am surprised too. Delta's 737-900ERs have 180 passengers, 20 FC and 160 Y/Y+. Delta's 737 MAX 10s will gain only two more passengers.
Maybe Delta listened to their customers and are going to give them more legroom or another toilet.


While I would like to think that is the case, I'm skeptical. I do think it probably comes down to planned mission profile. As others have noted, this seems meant to replace A320, 738, and already retired MD90 capacity. I am sure that Delta will market it as a premium, low density cabin but I think that is a side effect of how they intend to use the plane. If Delta felt they needed 192 seats on the plane, they would have squeezed them in somehow.

I do think they realized the 739 mistake of too few C+ seats. But that doesn't explain all of the missing capacity.

Unless they get a mid-cabin lav, adjusting seat density is a relatively easy. If the mission profile changes, I'm sure Delta can creatively cram in a few extra seats.


I think DL will put the MAX-10’s on select transcons (ie, non JFK-LAX/SFO) and ~3 hour segments for which they believe they can get a premium from a less dense cabin. Think BOS, LGA and JFK to select Florida and Caribbean markets; ATL to select California markets; and SEA to east coast markets. The 739’s will be used on routes with lower yields.

Delta is chasing more lucrative business travelers and high-end vacationers as the wealth divide becomes greater and is not evaporating anytime soon. DL has no desire to be the next Spirit.

If this strategy proves wrong, DL can easily add more seats — similar to how AA’s “More Room Throughout Coach” was pulled. DL has done the analytics. There are alternatives for this aircraft. What’s being communicated externally is a positive spin of the current plan. Also consider: 3-3-3 on the 777 wasn’t really for Y passenger comfort.
 
flyinggoat
Posts: 378
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Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:19 pm

So if Delta is only running 182 seats, do they still need the extra exits behind the wing, or will those be plugged?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:26 pm

flyinggoat wrote:
So if Delta is only running 182 seats, do they still need the extra exits behind the wing, or will those be plugged?

Depends on how many rows they're putting between the wing and the rear doors.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:36 pm

777Mech wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
We can finally update the title.

With the engine deal, DL's MRO arm will now service every next generation engine platform.

Maybe flat beds on the initial ones?

Definitely cannot be comparable. With Alaskas 321neo having 190 seats and the max10 having 189 seats.

So I’m guessing the initial ones will have flat beds and probably at the 2025 period, some 321NEOs will be coming with flat beds as well. That’s the only thing that makes sense to me


No plans for flat beds on the MAX, nor ETOPS. The 321s will cover the narrowbody lie-flat segment.

Can you fly west coast hawaii without ETOPS?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:40 pm

nstampede002 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
VS11 wrote:
No mention about engines, will DL have LEAP overhauls in house?


Certainly looks that way: https://news.delta.com/delta-techops-provide-maintenance-services-next-gen-leap-engines


Lightsaber noted a probable key to this deal is the LEAP MRO, which they got for both themselves and service to other airlines. It makes sense as the number of LEAP's in service keeps climbing. Otherwise CFM would probably need to enlarge their own overhaul business anyway, why not give DL the opportunity.

I will be curious if this change allows DL to opt for CFM's on a future A321 order verses PW. It will probably be based on real world cost analysis after of few years of MRO work.

DL is now in a great negotiating position - new NEO, new MAX, used NEO, used MAX, used CEO, and used -NG all will work in the fleet.

---

Does Boeing regularly do major interior refits like they agreed to here for the 29 former Lion Air 739's? Is this to do an entire C or D check of these former planes so they can be a "certified pre-own", basically a 'like new' aircraft after this rehab. I don't recall this interior refit service announced before, maybe I missed it.
 
Chemist
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Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:56 pm

Perhaps if the operating costs are almost the same as the smaller variants, Delta figures these advantages:
1 - Good deal with Boeing
2 - In these initial operational years they can advertise a roomier pitch for seating versus competition
3 - This AC have better field length needs than the -9 due to the telescoping gear (do we know this?)
4 - For longer term growth, they can always increase density, which wouldn't have been possible if they started with a denser -8 or -9.
 
ehaase
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Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:08 pm

I read Delta plans to have over 300 737's in the fleet by the end of the decade. With 100 or 130 737-10's and 163 739's, it appears there will be some 738's in the fleet at 2030.
 
Dldiamondboy
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:12 pm

johns624 wrote:
meh130 wrote:
I am surprised too. Delta's 737-900ERs have 180 passengers, 20 FC and 160 Y/Y+. Delta's 737 MAX 10s will gain only two more passengers.
Maybe Delta listened to their customers and are going to give them more legroom or another toilet.



We can only hope! I avoid the 739 for the exact reasons mentioned above. One lav aft of the flight deck and three in the tail leads to a lot of crowding and bunching up in the already narrow aisles. Hopefully the Max 10s will have a mid cabin lav like the A321.
 
777Mech
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:32 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
nstampede002 wrote:


Lightsaber noted a probable key to this deal is the LEAP MRO, which they got for both themselves and service to other airlines. It makes sense as the number of LEAP's in service keeps climbing. Otherwise CFM would probably need to enlarge their own overhaul business anyway, why not give DL the opportunity.

I will be curious if this change allows DL to opt for CFM's on a future A321 order verses PW. It will probably be based on real world cost analysis after of few years of MRO work.

DL is now in a great negotiating position - new NEO, new MAX, used NEO, used MAX, used CEO, and used -NG all will work in the fleet.

---

Does Boeing regularly do major interior refits like they agreed to here for the 29 former Lion Air 739's? Is this to do an entire C or D check of these former planes so they can be a "certified pre-own", basically a 'like new' aircraft after this rehab. I don't recall this interior refit service announced before, maybe I missed it.


So far, the engine deal only covers the -1B motor exclusively for the MAXes. Now later on down the road they may add the -1A to the repair certificate should they decide to get CFM powered NEOs, but I don't see it happening.

The only way I see a CFM powered NEO is if the DL decides there is a place for the XLR in the fleet and the economics of the LEAP is better than PW for those missions.
 
pdxplanes837362
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Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:36 pm

I am probably out of touch with this but from now on will all new aircraft types received by delta come standard with the new domestic F initially shown on the 321neo.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:28 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
nstampede002 wrote:


Lightsaber noted a probable key to this deal is the LEAP MRO, which they got for both themselves and service to other airlines. It makes sense as the number of LEAP's in service keeps climbing. Otherwise CFM would probably need to enlarge their own overhaul business anyway, why not give DL the opportunity.

I will be curious if this change allows DL to opt for CFM's on a future A321 order verses PW. It will probably be based on real world cost analysis after of few years of MRO work.

DL is now in a great negotiating position - new NEO, new MAX, used NEO, used MAX, used CEO, and used -NG all will work in the fleet.

---

Does Boeing regularly do major interior refits like they agreed to here for the 29 former Lion Air 739's? Is this to do an entire C or D check of these former planes so they can be a "certified pre-own", basically a 'like new' aircraft after this rehab. I don't recall this interior refit service announced before, maybe I missed it.


I saw this in the "other manufacturers/engine" thread and smiled at the leading indicator this presents!
ikolkyo wrote:



In my opinion, this MRO deal happens only with a MAX order as well as DL only buying the MAX with the MRO rights. A big cost saver for Delta and a profit center servicing other airlines. Win-Win.

I think we'll see a title change on this thread in a week or so.

Lightsaber
Late edit, link to the other thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1474901&p=23388767#p23388767
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:29 pm

i recently flew in a Delta A321CEO w/ a brand new interior. I flew Y, but it was definitely top notch.

So, I'm excited to see how Delta will outfit these 100 MAX10s and the 29 900ERs. I enjoy flying Delta and quite frankly, it's nice to fly something with a bit more class than the worn out WN planes I've flown of late (granted they had a whole MAX fleet parked, so I understand the scarcity of planes). Really looking forward to seeing what they do with the MAX... and of course the MAX 10 takeoff performance with just 182 seats and those boosted engines (31k) and that cantelevered telescoping (10") gear.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:33 pm

lightsaber wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
nstampede002 wrote:


Lightsaber noted a probable key to this deal is the LEAP MRO, which they got for both themselves and service to other airlines. It makes sense as the number of LEAP's in service keeps climbing. Otherwise CFM would probably need to enlarge their own overhaul business anyway, why not give DL the opportunity.

I will be curious if this change allows DL to opt for CFM's on a future A321 order verses PW. It will probably be based on real world cost analysis after of few years of MRO work.

DL is now in a great negotiating position - new NEO, new MAX, used NEO, used MAX, used CEO, and used -NG all will work in the fleet.

---

Does Boeing regularly do major interior refits like they agreed to here for the 29 former Lion Air 739's? Is this to do an entire C or D check of these former planes so they can be a "certified pre-own", basically a 'like new' aircraft after this rehab. I don't recall this interior refit service announced before, maybe I missed it.


I saw this in the "other manufacturers/engine" thread and smiled at the leading indicator this presents!
ikolkyo wrote:



In my opinion, this MRO deal happens only with a MAX order as well as DL only buying the MAX with the MRO rights. A big cost saver for Delta and a profit center servicing other airlines. Win-Win.

I think we'll see a title change on this thread in a week or so.

Lightsaber
Late edit, link to the other thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1474901&p=23388767#p23388767


Maybe I’m misreading what you’re saying but DL announced the MAX order: https://ir.delta.com/news/news-details/ ... fault.aspx. There’s no leading indicator or further thread title change necessary, it’s done.
 
meh130
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Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:38 pm

I expect Delta will "roll down" 738s to some A319 routes as the A319s retire, and 739s to 738 routes, and 737 MAX 10s to 739 routes. I also expect A321s will replace 752s.

I still don't get the LOPA. They could have made it with more Y+ at that seat count. And with fewer seats than an A321, they do not need more than 4 lavs. So what is taking up the space? Delta is extremely astute in managing capacity. There is a method to the madness. That is why I suspect a larger galley. I would not be surprised to see these aircraft flying routes like west coast to Hawaii.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:45 pm

meh130 wrote:
I expect Delta will "roll down" 738s to some A319 routes as the A319s retire, and 739s to 738 routes, and 737 MAX 10s to 739 routes. I also expect A321s will replace 752s.

I still don't get the LOPA. They could have made it with more Y+ at that seat count. And with fewer seats than an A321, they do not need more than 4 lavs. So what is taking up the space? Delta is extremely astute in managing capacity. There is a method to the madness. That is why I suspect a larger galley. I would not be surprised to see these aircraft flying routes like west coast to Hawaii.


But they won’t have ETOPS per above so they can’t do west coast to Hawaii, correct?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:00 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:

Lightsaber noted a probable key to this deal is the LEAP MRO, which they got for both themselves and service to other airlines. It makes sense as the number of LEAP's in service keeps climbing. Otherwise CFM would probably need to enlarge their own overhaul business anyway, why not give DL the opportunity.

I will be curious if this change allows DL to opt for CFM's on a future A321 order verses PW. It will probably be based on real world cost analysis after of few years of MRO work.

DL is now in a great negotiating position - new NEO, new MAX, used NEO, used MAX, used CEO, and used -NG all will work in the fleet.

---

Does Boeing regularly do major interior refits like they agreed to here for the 29 former Lion Air 739's? Is this to do an entire C or D check of these former planes so they can be a "certified pre-own", basically a 'like new' aircraft after this rehab. I don't recall this interior refit service announced before, maybe I missed it.


I saw this in the "other manufacturers/engine" thread and smiled at the leading indicator this presents!
ikolkyo wrote:



In my opinion, this MRO deal happens only with a MAX order as well as DL only buying the MAX with the MRO rights. A big cost saver for Delta and a profit center servicing other airlines. Win-Win.

I think we'll see a title change on this thread in a week or so.

Lightsaber
Late edit, link to the other thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1474901&p=23388767#p23388767


Maybe I’m misreading what you’re saying but DL announced the MAX order: https://ir.delta.com/news/news-details/ ... fault.aspx. There’s no leading indicator or further thread title change necessary, it’s done.

I'm the one who misread, thanks for the link.

Lightsaber

Late update, thread title updated. A link from DL's investor relations is certainly a valid link!
 
4engines4short
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:09 pm

777Mech wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
nstampede002 wrote:


Lightsaber noted a probable key to this deal is the LEAP MRO, which they got for both themselves and service to other airlines. It makes sense as the number of LEAP's in service keeps climbing. Otherwise CFM would probably need to enlarge their own overhaul business anyway, why not give DL the opportunity.

I will be curious if this change allows DL to opt for CFM's on a future A321 order verses PW. It will probably be based on real world cost analysis after of few years of MRO work.

DL is now in a great negotiating position - new NEO, new MAX, used NEO, used MAX, used CEO, and used -NG all will work in the fleet.

---

Does Boeing regularly do major interior refits like they agreed to here for the 29 former Lion Air 739's? Is this to do an entire C or D check of these former planes so they can be a "certified pre-own", basically a 'like new' aircraft after this rehab. I don't recall this interior refit service announced before, maybe I missed it.


So far, the engine deal only covers the -1B motor exclusively for the MAXes. Now later on down the road they may add the -1A to the repair certificate should they decide to get CFM powered NEOs, but I don't see it happening.

The only way I see a CFM powered NEO is if the DL decides there is a place for the XLR in the fleet and the economics of the LEAP is better than PW for those missions.


I could see a order just to get the MRO rights Luftasna, does this and TecOps is a big sorce of revenue. Delta has pleanty of Aircaft to replace and need for fleet growth thay will almost cerntaly oder more neos and that would be a pime opetinaty to get a MRO agremant.
 
777Mech
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Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:42 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
meh130 wrote:
I expect Delta will "roll down" 738s to some A319 routes as the A319s retire, and 739s to 738 routes, and 737 MAX 10s to 739 routes. I also expect A321s will replace 752s.

I still don't get the LOPA. They could have made it with more Y+ at that seat count. And with fewer seats than an A321, they do not need more than 4 lavs. So what is taking up the space? Delta is extremely astute in managing capacity. There is a method to the madness. That is why I suspect a larger galley. I would not be surprised to see these aircraft flying routes like west coast to Hawaii.


But they won’t have ETOPS per above so they can’t do west coast to Hawaii, correct?


You have to have ETOPs for Hawaii, and the MAXes won't be in the program. The NEOs fill that role, as they've started scheduling them on Hawaii runs this winter, and as more get delivered they'll slowly take over more routes out of SEA and eventually LAX.
 
bchandl
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Re: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal Imminent

Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:26 am

MavyWavyATR wrote:
Didn't think Delta would ever order Boeing again after the CSeries/A220 fiasco 6 years ago. Also...why do this when they have tons of A321neos on the books?


Delta is far too big, and their route network needs far too diverse to be a one shop airline, both from a sheer volume need and efficiency standpoint.
 
burnsie28
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:28 am

questions wrote:
ethernal wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Maybe Delta listened to their customers and are going to give them more legroom or another toilet.


While I would like to think that is the case, I'm skeptical. I do think it probably comes down to planned mission profile. As others have noted, this seems meant to replace A320, 738, and already retired MD90 capacity. I am sure that Delta will market it as a premium, low density cabin but I think that is a side effect of how they intend to use the plane. If Delta felt they needed 192 seats on the plane, they would have squeezed them in somehow.

I do think they realized the 739 mistake of too few C+ seats. But that doesn't explain all of the missing capacity.

Unless they get a mid-cabin lav, adjusting seat density is a relatively easy. If the mission profile changes, I'm sure Delta can creatively cram in a few extra seats.


I think DL will put the MAX-10’s on select transcons (ie, non JFK-LAX/SFO)



As previously mentioned, Delta will have specific A321 configured NEO's for JFK-LAX/SFO transcons.
 
questions
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:20 am

burnsie28 wrote:
questions wrote:
ethernal wrote:

While I would like to think that is the case, I'm skeptical. I do think it probably comes down to planned mission profile. As others have noted, this seems meant to replace A320, 738, and already retired MD90 capacity. I am sure that Delta will market it as a premium, low density cabin but I think that is a side effect of how they intend to use the plane. If Delta felt they needed 192 seats on the plane, they would have squeezed them in somehow.

I do think they realized the 739 mistake of too few C+ seats. But that doesn't explain all of the missing capacity.

Unless they get a mid-cabin lav, adjusting seat density is a relatively easy. If the mission profile changes, I'm sure Delta can creatively cram in a few extra seats.


I think DL will put the MAX-10’s on select transcons (ie, non JFK-LAX/SFO)



As previously mentioned, Delta will have specific A321 configured NEO's for JFK-LAX/SFO transcons.


That’s why I said, “non JFK-LAX/SFO.”

Thanks for clarifying for those who may not have understood the wording as, “select transcons, excluding JFK-LAX/SFO.”
 
jhud922
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Re: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:20 am

gaystudpilot wrote:
I wonder if the refreshed livery will debut on the MAX10.


Is this a rumor or we know for sure they will have a refreshed one?
 
USAirKid
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Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:25 am

777Mech wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
meh130 wrote:
I expect Delta will "roll down" 738s to some A319 routes as the A319s retire, and 739s to 738 routes, and 737 MAX 10s to 739 routes. I also expect A321s will replace 752s.

I still don't get the LOPA. They could have made it with more Y+ at that seat count. And with fewer seats than an A321, they do not need more than 4 lavs. So what is taking up the space? Delta is extremely astute in managing capacity. There is a method to the madness. That is why I suspect a larger galley. I would not be surprised to see these aircraft flying routes like west coast to Hawaii.


But they won’t have ETOPS per above so they can’t do west coast to Hawaii, correct?


You have to have ETOPs for Hawaii, and the MAXes won't be in the program. The NEOs fill that role, as they've started scheduling them on Hawaii runs this winter, and as more get delivered they'll slowly take over more routes out of SEA and eventually LAX.


Yes. To add onto this its specifically 180 minutes ETOPS that is needed.

I presume if Delta changes their mind in the future, they could have the work done to make the B3XM's 180 ETOPS.

(I looked up the IATA code for the 737-10, its B3XM, although I did get a kick out of someone up thread having it as the 7MX, which just seems to be a recipe to have all of your 737 MAX 10s be hanger queens.) :duck:
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:50 am

4engines4short wrote:
777Mech wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:

Lightsaber noted a probable key to this deal is the LEAP MRO, which they got for both themselves and service to other airlines. It makes sense as the number of LEAP's in service keeps climbing. Otherwise CFM would probably need to enlarge their own overhaul business anyway, why not give DL the opportunity.

I will be curious if this change allows DL to opt for CFM's on a future A321 order verses PW. It will probably be based on real world cost analysis after of few years of MRO work.

DL is now in a great negotiating position - new NEO, new MAX, used NEO, used MAX, used CEO, and used -NG all will work in the fleet.

---

Does Boeing regularly do major interior refits like they agreed to here for the 29 former Lion Air 739's? Is this to do an entire C or D check of these former planes so they can be a "certified pre-own", basically a 'like new' aircraft after this rehab. I don't recall this interior refit service announced before, maybe I missed it.


So far, the engine deal only covers the -1B motor exclusively for the MAXes. Now later on down the road they may add the -1A to the repair certificate should they decide to get CFM powered NEOs, but I don't see it happening.

The only way I see a CFM powered NEO is if the DL decides there is a place for the XLR in the fleet and the economics of the LEAP is better than PW for those missions.


I could see a order just to get the MRO rights Luftasna, does this and TecOps is a big sorce of revenue. Delta has pleanty of Aircaft to replace and need for fleet growth thay will almost cerntaly oder more neos and that would be a pime opetinaty to get a MRO agremant.

Didn't DL do this when they "ordered" the E190 from Boeing Capital? Or was that just a negotiation tactic to get the A220?
 
gonnagetbumpy
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 4:16 pm

Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:11 pm

meh130 wrote:
I expect Delta will "roll down" 738s to some A319 routes as the A319s retire, and 739s to 738 routes, and 737 MAX 10s to 739 routes. I also expect A321s will replace 752s.

I still don't get the LOPA. They could have made it with more Y+ at that seat count. And with fewer seats than an A321, they do not need more than 4 lavs. So what is taking up the space? Delta is extremely astute in managing capacity. There is a method to the madness. That is why I suspect a larger galley. I would not be surprised to see these aircraft flying routes like west coast to Hawaii.


I was surprised too. Like the 321neo, I think delta has made their newest interiors a minimum of 31” pitch in main cabin and 34” (not changed) for Comfort +. Other narrow body aircraft have had a couple of rows at 30” pitch for main cabin. That extra inch makes a big difference for me! Will be a nice ride. Hopefully we see a next generation economy Class seat this time too.
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 9263
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Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:06 pm

USAirKid wrote:
(I looked up the IATA code for the 737-10, its B3XM, although I did get a kick out of someone up thread having it as the 7MX, which just seems to be a recipe to have all of your 737 MAX 10s be hanger queens.) :duck:


B3XM is the ICAO code. The IATA code is 7MJ.
 
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LH748
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Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:23 pm

Delta had been and remains to be a fleet mess. I guess they grab anything with wings if they think it's a good deal. At least it keeps the industry interesting and I guess it's so many frames that it still makes some economic sense
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4346
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:31 pm

LH748 wrote:
Delta had been and remains to be a fleet mess. I guess they grab anything with wings if they think it's a good deal. At least it keeps the industry interesting and I guess it's so many frames that it still makes some economic sense


DL’s fleet is not a mess. You act like they operate every type aircraft and multiple layouts and engine types. That is hardly the case. A simple look at fleet pages on Wiki shows this. All of the big 3 legacies have MAX and Neos on order. DL is a massive carrier that is diversifying manufactures and aircraft to best suit its needs. Yes, it’s done used acquisitions, as have AA and UA in order to balance capex with fleet needs.
 
LAOCA
Posts: 50
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Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:51 pm

AdEd wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
We can finally update the title.

With the engine deal, DL's MRO arm will now service every next generation engine platform.

Maybe flat beds on the initial ones?

Definitely cannot be comparable. With Alaskas 321neo having 190 seats and the max10 having 189 seats.

So I’m guessing the initial ones will have flat beds and probably at the 2025 period, some 321NEOs will be coming with flat beds as well. That’s the only thing that makes sense to me


Flat beds are only coming to the A321neo with 148 seats, a singular fleet for TCON that will replace the current 168-seater 752s with flat beds. I don't see the need for another sub-fleet of 7MX with flat beds.


Sure it is. 2 rows, 12 seats longer.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9556
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Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:14 pm

LH748 wrote:
Delta had been and remains to be a fleet mess. I guess they grab anything with wings if they think it's a good deal. At least it keeps the industry interesting and I guess it's so many frames that it still makes some economic sense

In a decade from now the following fleet types will be gone:
CR2
717
738
319, 320
752, 753
763
764
(not to mention the MD88, MD90, 73G, B77L, B77E that were all retired during the pandemic)

In ~2032 they will have the following:
CR7/9 (DCI)
E70/5 (DCI)
A220: A221, A223
B737: B739, MAX-10
A32X: A321CEO, A321 NEO
A330: A332, A333, A339
A350: A359

At mainline they will be simplified down to 5 major categories / platforms.
They are going to run out their current fleet types through their full usable life but a lot of the legacy fleet types from the 90s/early 2000s and pre-merger era will be retired over the next decade.
 
questions
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Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:57 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
In a decade from now the following fleet types will be gone:
CR2
717
738
319, 320
752, 753
763
764
(not to mention the MD88, MD90, 73G, B77L, B77E that were all retired during the pandemic)

In ~2032 they will have the following:
CR7/9 (DCI)
E70/5 (DCI)
A220: A221, A223
B737: B739, MAX-10
A32X: A321CEO, A321 NEO
A330: A332, A333, A339
A350: A359

At mainline they will be simplified down to 5 major categories / platforms.
They are going to run out their current fleet types through their full usable life but a lot of the legacy fleet types from the 90s/early 2000s and pre-merger era will be retired over the next decade.


Does this suggest DL will not need the Boeing NMA to replace the 763?
 
USAirKid
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Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:12 am

LH748 wrote:
Delta had been and remains to be a fleet mess. I guess they grab anything with wings if they think it's a good deal. At least it keeps the industry interesting and I guess it's so many frames that it still makes some economic sense


As others mentioned, its not that complicated of a mess.

The general thought of "simplified fleet" comes from the LCC world where yes, the overriding trend and business experience is to have fleet of a single type, if not a single specific model. That makes sense when you've got a fleet of 285 like JetBlue, but when like United, you have a fleet of 812, of which 655 are narrow bodies, you can run fleets of different types. Plus it allows you to use each fleet in the best possible way.

This also has the advantage of helping get a better deal out of the OEMs, because they know you're actually willing and able to operate a fleet by the other manufacturer.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11437
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Updated: DL ordering up to 130 737 MAX 10

Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:28 am

gonnagetbumpy wrote:
meh130 wrote:
I expect Delta will "roll down" 738s to some A319 routes as the A319s retire, and 739s to 738 routes, and 737 MAX 10s to 739 routes. I also expect A321s will replace 752s.

I still don't get the LOPA. They could have made it with more Y+ at that seat count. And with fewer seats than an A321, they do not need more than 4 lavs. So what is taking up the space? Delta is extremely astute in managing capacity. There is a method to the madness. That is why I suspect a larger galley. I would not be surprised to see these aircraft flying routes like west coast to Hawaii.


I was surprised too. Like the 321neo, I think delta has made their newest interiors a minimum of 31” pitch in main cabin and 34” (not changed) for Comfort +. Other narrow body aircraft have had a couple of rows at 30” pitch for main cabin. That extra inch makes a big difference for me! Will be a nice ride. Hopefully we see a next generation economy Class seat this time too.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I interpret 31" pitch on 321neos and 220-300s as a practical matter of cabin lengths and exit positions. They couldn't squeeze in another coach row so we get 31". They were happy to take 321ceos and 220-100s at a min of 30", as with the 739s. Trying to get the right mix of Comfort+ to Y is another constraint.
 
randomdude83
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:52 pm

Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:38 am

I think delta ordered all the narrow body aircraft it needs to replace older generation a320/738/319/757.

I still believe there is room for the 787 in deltas fleet. A good 788 size configured like zip air configuration will be very profitable for delta. Add a GE Mro deal for genx and it will be a win all around.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4346
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:43 am

randomdude83 wrote:
I think delta ordered all the narrow body aircraft it needs to replace older generation a320/738/319/757.

I still believe there is room for the 787 in deltas fleet. A good 788 size configured like zip air configuration will be very profitable for delta. Add a GE Mro deal for genx and it will be a win all around.
.


How does that math work? DL has fewer narrowbody aircraft on order than those combined fleets. DL has further specifically stated some of the MAX order is for growth. So, no, they haven’t.

Why would DL configure a 788 like Zip, a low cost carrier? Pay any attention to DL earnings and strategy discussions and it is clear premium is their plan - not a dense 788. Moreover, a 788 just simply isn’t as efficient as a 789.
 
randomdude83
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:52 pm

Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:08 am

jbs2886 wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
I think delta ordered all the narrow body aircraft it needs to replace older generation a320/738/319/757.

I still believe there is room for the 787 in deltas fleet. A good 788 size configured like zip air configuration will be very profitable for delta. Add a GE Mro deal for genx and it will be a win all around.
.


How does that math work? DL has fewer narrowbody aircraft on order than those combined fleets. DL has further specifically stated some of the MAX order is for growth. So, no, they haven’t.

Why would DL configure a 788 like Zip, a low cost carrier? Pay any attention to DL earnings and strategy discussions and it is clear premium is their plan - not a dense 788. Moreover, a 788 just simply isn’t as efficient as a 789.


I speculate The 739 and current a321 ceo will be used to push the 738 and a320 out. The a220 is perfect to take over a319 and 717 routes. The upcoming 737 max and 321neo to replace the current 757-200 and perform routes done by 739/321ceo now as well.

I’m guessing the 753 will not get a direct replacement since there isn’t any.

As for the 788. I only mentioned zip air config for seat count as that seems to be the sweet spot to make it operational cost profitable. I’m sure delta can fit a premium product even in that seat count configuration.

The 789 is even more perfect but then that is the a339 territory and might as well get the cheaper a339.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4346
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:19 am

randomdude83 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
I think delta ordered all the narrow body aircraft it needs to replace older generation a320/738/319/757.

I still believe there is room for the 787 in deltas fleet. A good 788 size configured like zip air configuration will be very profitable for delta. Add a GE Mro deal for genx and it will be a win all around.
.


How does that math work? DL has fewer narrowbody aircraft on order than those combined fleets. DL has further specifically stated some of the MAX order is for growth. So, no, they haven’t.

Why would DL configure a 788 like Zip, a low cost carrier? Pay any attention to DL earnings and strategy discussions and it is clear premium is their plan - not a dense 788. Moreover, a 788 just simply isn’t as efficient as a 789.


I speculate The 739 and current a321 ceo will be used to push the 738 and a320 out. The a220 is perfect to take over a319 and 717 routes. The upcoming 737 max and 321neo to replace the current 757-200 and perform routes done by 739/321ceo now as well.

I’m guessing the 753 will not get a direct replacement since there isn’t any.

As for the 788. I only mentioned zip air config for seat count as that seems to be the sweet spot to make it operational cost profitable. I’m sure delta can fit a premium product even in that seat count configuration.

The 789 is even more perfect but then that is the a339 territory and might as well get the cheaper a339.


Your math doesn’t work on any of this. DL still doesn’t have enough on order to do what you say (you even added in the 717 in this post, which wasn’t in your original, further exacerbating the issue). DL also specifically said the MAX 10 will replace the 738, so not the 739 and A321. DL is just not going to replace the 753 because there is no direct replacement? Never mind airlines don’t necessarily do one-for-one replacement, but DL has stated it intends to grow so factually your speculation is wrong.

With respect to the 788, how can you say a configuration is a sweet spot and then say they can fit in premium seats? That’s impossible - premium seats take a lot of space (look at KLM adding premium economy and dropping dozens of seats on many aircraft to fit in that class). Moreover, on what basis is the Zip config the sweet spot? Zip has barely been operating so it’s hardly a basis for making such a strong assertion. Finally, there are many reasons to get a 789 over an A339, including capability (not to mention you’re assuming the A339 will be cheaper).
 
TW870
Posts: 1497
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:04 am

itripreport wrote:
Also, does anyone know if the current new A321neo first class seats will fit in the fuselage of the MAX 10?


I've asked that a couple times in the fleet thread. There are some pretty knowledgeably people on there, and no one has replied. So I think that decision is yet to be made. While it would probably be possible to put the 321N seats in the front of the Max, the Boeing fuselage tapers much more gradually. Therefore, the aisle seats on the front couple of rows would be quite close together, which could create a bottleneck as passengers would have to squeeze through a tight space due to the tall seatbacks. They might be able to mitigate that by staggering the rows and putting the first class closet aft of the forward entry door (to push the seats aft into the wider part of the cabin). Also, Delta has a ton of relatively short routes. I am not sure they need a premium domestic F seat on 90 minute bounces out of ATL, which is much of what this plane is going to do.

PS your YouTube channel is great. Well shot and concise!
 
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1337Delta764
Posts: 6206
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:22 am

TW870 wrote:
itripreport wrote:
Also, does anyone know if the current new A321neo first class seats will fit in the fuselage of the MAX 10?


I've asked that a couple times in the fleet thread. There are some pretty knowledgeably people on there, and no one has replied. So I think that decision is yet to be made. While it would probably be possible to put the 321N seats in the front of the Max, the Boeing fuselage tapers much more gradually. Therefore, the aisle seats on the front couple of rows would be quite close together, which could create a bottleneck as passengers would have to squeeze through a tight space due to the tall seatbacks. They might be able to mitigate that by staggering the rows and putting the first class closet aft of the forward entry door (to push the seats aft into the wider part of the cabin). Also, Delta has a ton of relatively short routes. I am not sure they need a premium domestic F seat on 90 minute bounces out of ATL, which is much of what this plane is going to do.

PS your YouTube channel is great. Well shot and concise!


From what I heard DL plans to install these seats in some 738s (the ones that currently feature the old smaller Panasonic IFE screens), so I expect the 737 MAX 10s will get them as well.
 
AdEd
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 6:05 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:54 am

LAOCA wrote:
AdEd wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Maybe flat beds on the initial ones?

Definitely cannot be comparable. With Alaskas 321neo having 190 seats and the max10 having 189 seats.

So I’m guessing the initial ones will have flat beds and probably at the 2025 period, some 321NEOs will be coming with flat beds as well. That’s the only thing that makes sense to me


Flat beds are only coming to the A321neo with 148 seats, a singular fleet for TCON that will replace the current 168-seater 752s with flat beds. I don't see the need for another sub-fleet of 7MX with flat beds.


Sure it is. 2 rows, 12 seats longer.


United's 737 MAX 10 will fit 189, just one extra row, with ordinary recliner F seats.

How is it so hard to fathom that DL would simply put in a few extra inches in F and perhaps in Y as well to get to 182? If you know how space works, then you'd know 20 flat beds simply would not fit in that configuration.

It is just a difference of one row compared to other airlines.
 
pdxplanes837362
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:40 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:47 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
itripreport wrote:
Also, does anyone know if the current new A321neo first class seats will fit in the fuselage of the MAX 10?


I've asked that a couple times in the fleet thread. There are some pretty knowledgeably people on there, and no one has replied. So I think that decision is yet to be made. While it would probably be possible to put the 321N seats in the front of the Max, the Boeing fuselage tapers much more gradually. Therefore, the aisle seats on the front couple of rows would be quite close together, which could create a bottleneck as passengers would have to squeeze through a tight space due to the tall seatbacks. They might be able to mitigate that by staggering the rows and putting the first class closet aft of the forward entry door (to push the seats aft into the wider part of the cabin). Also, Delta has a ton of relatively short routes. I am not sure they need a premium domestic F seat on 90 minute bounces out of ATL, which is much of what this plane is going to do.

PS your YouTube channel is great. Well shot and concise!


From what I heard DL plans to install these seats in some 738s (the ones that currently feature the old smaller Panasonic IFE screens), so I expect the 737 MAX 10s will get them as well.

If this is Deltas plan, I’m not arguing with it since i don’t know nearly as much as the people making these decisions, but can someone explain for those of us that are confused why Delta is planning on installing these new F seats particularly on the 738? Wasn’t part of the Max 10 order to more promptly offload these planes as they are more fuel efficient, I’m aware they will still be flying for a few years but if they are doing the 738’s, why aren’t they going to do the 739’s? Sure they are newer planes with more recent seats but as far as i’m concerned the 739’s will be here for a fair bit longer that -8’s.
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 987
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 100 737 MAX 10 Deal At Farnborough

Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:37 pm

pdxplanes837362 wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
TW870 wrote:

I've asked that a couple times in the fleet thread. There are some pretty knowledgeably people on there, and no one has replied. So I think that decision is yet to be made. While it would probably be possible to put the 321N seats in the front of the Max, the Boeing fuselage tapers much more gradually. Therefore, the aisle seats on the front couple of rows would be quite close together, which could create a bottleneck as passengers would have to squeeze through a tight space due to the tall seatbacks. They might be able to mitigate that by staggering the rows and putting the first class closet aft of the forward entry door (to push the seats aft into the wider part of the cabin). Also, Delta has a ton of relatively short routes. I am not sure they need a premium domestic F seat on 90 minute bounces out of ATL, which is much of what this plane is going to do.

PS your YouTube channel is great. Well shot and concise!


From what I heard DL plans to install these seats in some 738s (the ones that currently feature the old smaller Panasonic IFE screens), so I expect the 737 MAX 10s will get them as well.

If this is Deltas plan, I’m not arguing with it since i don’t know nearly as much as the people making these decisions, but can someone explain for those of us that are confused why Delta is planning on installing these new F seats particularly on the 738? Wasn’t part of the Max 10 order to more promptly offload these planes as they are more fuel efficient, I’m aware they will still be flying for a few years but if they are doing the 738’s, why aren’t they going to do the 739’s? Sure they are newer planes with more recent seats but as far as i’m concerned the 739’s will be here for a fair bit longer that -8’s.

The most immediate need is to replace the aging A320s; some of which are older than the newest of the mad dogs that are already retired, 88s not 90s. Also I would bet the 738s are probably due for heavy checks and thus have the necessary down time to replace the first class seats which are VERY long in tooth.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9556
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:15 am

The 738s are still going to be around for another ~6 years. They will be going through their last HMV cycle and ultimately get up to 28-30 years in service. Doubt you will really see any 738s go out before 2027-2028. The 73H has the most inferior product hence the need for a refresh to bring them up to in line with the current narrow body interiors. If you are going to do new F seats might as well put in the latest and greatest one
 
DLATL
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:15 am

Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:02 pm

I couldn’t help but notice that in the article, it is said the the new MAX 10s will be used basically at every other hub except Salt Lake City. Do you think that SLC was just simply not mentioned? Or is there some sort of performance issue that may sway them away from using them there? I know that SLC is a hot & high airport, so especially in the summer months, DL tends to have to block some seats for some transcons, but I don’t know how the MAX 10 performs so is that possibly their concern?
 
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ikolkyo
Posts: 3775
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:21 am

DLATL wrote:
I couldn’t help but notice that in the article, it is said the the new MAX 10s will be used basically at every other hub except Salt Lake City. Do you think that SLC was just simply not mentioned? Or is there some sort of performance issue that may sway them away from using them there? I know that SLC is a hot & high airport, so especially in the summer months, DL tends to have to block some seats for some transcons, but I don’t know how the MAX 10 performs so is that possibly their concern?


Who is saying this? I haven't read anything about that from DL. If the -900ER is operating out of SLC I don't see why the -10 woouldn't.
 
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1337Delta764
Posts: 6206
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Updated #2: DL ordered 100 737 MAX 10 + 30 options

Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:50 am

BTW, the new domestic F seats are made by Recaro/FactoryDesign. For years it seems like for domestic F DL has used Weber/Zodiac/Safran almost exclusively. Y has historically been split between Weber/Zodiac/Safran and BE/Collins Aerospace (mostly the latter in recent years).
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