https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... YVKLCRB1Ww

Jon Ostrower confirming that 100 Max 10 deal with Boeing is now imminent

https://theaircurrent.com/scoops/delta- ... x-10-deal/

Deal is is for up to 130 Max 10s

Deliveries begin in 2025 and Iwa expected to be announced at Farnborough

Good news for the MAX 10. This might be the deal that finally sparks international confidence in the model. I wonder how the engine maintenance conflict was resolved.

How will the MAX10 fit into Delta’s network?

What missions is it best suited for within Delta’s network?

MavyWavyATR wrote:

Didn't think Delta would ever order Boeing again after the CSeries/A220 fiasco 6 years ago. Also...why do this when they have tons of A321neos on the books?

Would be quite shortsighted if Delta holds any grudges against Boeing for things in the past. Better to have large fleets from both manufacturers than just depend on a single one.

questions wrote:

How will the MAX10 fit into Delta’s network?

What missions is it best suited for within Delta’s network?

While I do not know how they will use it, it would be a marvelous machine for TransCon flights in the USA, along with heavy trunk routes (i.e. ATL-Florida)

I’m curious if CFM budged on the MRO side of things

questions wrote:

How will the MAX10 fit into Delta’s network?

What missions is it best suited for within Delta’s network?

Those 757s aren't going to be around forever. And for anyone thinking, "A 737-MAX 10 is NOT the same as a 757," you're right, but that's not going to stop them from being put on those routes. Remember, this is the airline that flies 737-900s to Honolulu just for kicks. They push every last atom's worth of value they can get out of an airplane's operating envelope. It's a surprisingly sound policy; if every flight is pressed up against maximum takeoff or landing or zero-fuel weight, then that means that every flight is getting the most it can out of the aircraft. 757-200s rarely fall into that category. They're awesome airplanes, but almost every one which takes off could have carried more weight farther, meaning the airplanes aren't giving the most value they can back to the company.

I can’t come up with a clear boundary or strategy for use of 737-10s and the 321s. So far, all I can surmise is that DL finds value in the largest aircraft of a series and that it’s in DL’s interests to not be beholden to either A or B. As near as I can tell, they’ll be somewhat interchangeable on routes.

I wonder if the refreshed livery will debut on the MAX10.

MavyWavyATR wrote:

Didn't think Delta would ever order Boeing again after the CSeries/A220 fiasco 6 years ago. Also...why do this when they have tons of A321neos on the books?

Of course we would. Remember when Richard Anderson sent Boeing's stock plummeting after claiming to be able to get a 777 for 10 mil (albeit for parts)? Then Boeing tried to tank our 220 deal. Mr. Anderson is of course long gone and Airbus isnt going to give us the best pricing if they think we will never order from Boeing again. Its all business.

MavyWavyATR wrote:

Didn't think Delta would ever order Boeing again after the CSeries/A220 fiasco 6 years ago. Also...why do this when they have tons of A321neos on the books?

Why not? Great deals can heal old wounds! Delta has a number of A320s that are getting old along with 738s. Given their recent proclivity to order larger NBs, this isn't really that big of a surprise.

[threeid][/threeid]

questions wrote:

How will the MAX10 fit into Delta’s network?

What missions is it best suited for within Delta’s network?

They will be used to replace the 320-200 and older 737-800. The operating costs are not a huge difference than the 737-8/9.
I’m personally not the biggest fan of the max but it is best for the shareholders to keep the competition going plus will bring in MRO work for the LEAP.

gaystudpilot wrote:

I wonder if the refreshed livery will debut on the MAX10.

are there any pics out there with the refreshed livery?

Replacing 320s and 738s with Max10s increases capacity without putting any more strain on the pilot shortage.

Their 757s aren't getting any younger neither. DL, along with UA, were pretty vocal about a MoM aircraft. The industry/market trend dictates upgauging and DL isn't dumb enough to not act on that. Also, ATL isn't getting any less busier and LGA/JFK aren't gaining new slots any time soon. This order makes total sense.

I'm a UA fanboy but DL is showing to have the perfect fleet spread from the A220 to A350 and literally every size plane in between for mainline.

It wouldn't surprise me if their next order is the A321XLR, provided Boeing hasn't launched a MoM/737 replacement.

TWA772LR wrote:

It wouldn't surprise me if their next order is the A321XLR, provided Boeing hasn't launched a MoM/737 replacement.

Based on their comments about long haul narrow body economics and their crew costs, I wouldn’t hold my breath. DL is not aboard that hype train.

DL wants larger than A321 but smaller than A339 (that is much lighter than A338).

B747forever wrote:

MavyWavyATR wrote:

Didn't think Delta would ever order Boeing again after the CSeries/A220 fiasco 6 years ago. Also...why do this when they have tons of A321neos on the books?

Would be quite shortsighted if Delta holds any grudges against Boeing for things in the past. Better to have large fleets from both manufacturers than just depend on a single one.

Its only on Anet where we read these "grudge" stories. Far from reality of the corporate world.

The max rumor has been brewing for several years and most recently got hit a few months ago back in March / April when there was article published that to the like a deal was close.

The reality is that the MAX at DL has always been a matter or “when” and not “if”.
The need to maintain large narrow body fleets of scale from both OEMs, NEO slots / timing is getting full, DL has a significant amount of frames / capacity coming due for replacement by end of decade.

The role of a MAX10 is essentially just doing more of what the NEO, A321CEO, and 739s are doing today. There is ample ability to upgauge across the network and push smaller gauge down to backfill retirement of older and smaller gauge aircraft. Then put lesser fuel efficient aircraft on shorter stage lengths.
A320 are doing a lot of former MD88 flying out of ATL currently. I see than transitioning to more 738/739 as the A320 ahead out.

We shall see, making announcements at events like Farnborough isn’t really DL’s style. However, Boeing maybe made it part of the “deal” so to speak.

ikolkyo wrote:

I’m curious if CFM budged on the MRO side of things

In my opinion, this kept the MAX out of DL's fleet for years. This is great work for techops.

To others:
I personally look forward to this addition at DL. On Monday I fly a DL 739 that needs an upgauge and then return on another upgaugable flight (but not as dire a need). In two weeks I fly another 739ER that needs an upgauge and more frequency and the return flight is always overbooked with a standby list. DL needs to expand, not just replace. Yield seems"good enough" based on fares I paid in advance.

Lightsaber

Not the biggest MAX fan but these should perform great for Delta, they always seems to run a very high LF on their domestic flights.. I wonder does Delta convert some of the NEOs to XLRs to finally replace the 757s..

747-600X wrote:

questions wrote:

How will the MAX10 fit into Delta’s network?

What missions is it best suited for within Delta’s network?

Those 757s aren't going to be around forever. And for anyone thinking, "A 737-MAX 10 is NOT the same as a 757," you're right, but that's not going to stop them from being put on those routes.

No it's not the same as a 757; it's much more efficient.

zkojq wrote:

747-600X wrote:

questions wrote:

How will the MAX10 fit into Delta’s network?

What missions is it best suited for within Delta’s network?

Those 757s aren't going to be around forever. And for anyone thinking, "A 737-MAX 10 is NOT the same as a 757," you're right, but that's not going to stop them from being put on those routes.

No it's not the same as a 757; it's much more efficient.

That's one way to put it...

Not to put a fork in this deal, but what happens if the FAA does not certify the Max 10 by the end of the year? Is the deal contingent on this? There is a lot of speculation out there, if Boeing does not get the waiver, the program will be cancelled due to excessive cost increases and delays for the new certification.

lightsaber wrote:

On Monday I fly a DL 739 that needs an upgauge and then return on another upgaugable flight (but not as dire a need). In two weeks I fly another 739ER that needs an upgauge and more frequency and the return flight is always overbooked with a standby list. DL needs to expand, not just replace. Yield seems"good enough" based on fares I paid in advance.

Lightsaber

Upgauged to what?

questions wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

On Monday I fly a DL 739 that needs an upgauge and then return on another upgaugable flight (but not as dire a need). In two weeks I fly another 739ER that needs an upgauge and more frequency and the return flight is always overbooked with a standby list. DL needs to expand, not just replace. Yield seems"good enough" based on fares I paid in advance.

Lightsaber

Upgauged to what?

The MAX 10. The purpose of this thread and the introductory sentence of the paragraph you omitted.

flyabr wrote:

gaystudpilot wrote:

I wonder if the refreshed livery will debut on the MAX10.

are there any pics out there with the refreshed livery?

Where did talk of a refreshed livery come from?

Great news for Boeing. Delta committing to such a sizable order certainly seems to indicate that they’re confident that regulatory hurtles should be cleared in a timely fashion, which makes me wonder if we can expect additional orders/conversions at Farnborough or later this year. The 757 replacement aspect of this order has been mentioned, and I do suspect that we’ll see DL use a mix of these aircraft and the A321s for those missions.

questions wrote:

How will the MAX10 fit into Delta’s network?

What missions is it best suited for within Delta’s network?

Delta tries to go mixed venders when they can to make them fight for the order & prevent 1 venders products crippling the operation.

NLINK wrote:

[threeid][/threeid]

questions wrote:

How will the MAX10 fit into Delta’s network?

What missions is it best suited for within Delta’s network?

They will be used to replace the 320-200 and older 737-800. The operating costs are not a huge difference than the 737-8/9.
I’m personally not the biggest fan of the max but it is best for the shareholders to keep the competition going plus will bring in MRO work for the LEAP.

MRO work only if CFM caved in.

DL has been using 757's on routes like RIC-ATL and ORF-ATL where a 737-10 MAX would have similar capacity but vastly better economics. Based on data I have seen the MAX 10 would be ideal on truck routes from the Northeast or Midwest to Florida or ATL while the A321Neo might be better suited transcon.

In any case, if true, a huge win for Boeing and the MAX program.

flyabr wrote:

gaystudpilot wrote:

I wonder if the refreshed livery will debut on the MAX10.

are there any pics out there with the refreshed livery?

Wait - refreshed livery? Hasn't this one been around since only 2008 or so?

crownvic wrote:

Not to put a fork in this deal, but what happens if the FAA does not certify the Max 10 by the end of the year? Is the deal contingent on this? There is a lot of speculation out there, if Boeing does not get the waiver, the program will be cancelled due to excessive cost increases and delays for the new certification.

Indeed. That *is* the question imo.

Any deal done now will have clauses about certification. DL may well have their eyes on another Boeing frame at a crazy price if it all falls apart.

william wrote:

B747forever wrote:

MavyWavyATR wrote:

Didn't think Delta would ever order Boeing again after the CSeries/A220 fiasco 6 years ago. Also...why do this when they have tons of A321neos on the books?

Would be quite shortsighted if Delta holds any grudges against Boeing for things in the past. Better to have large fleets from both manufacturers than just depend on a single one.

Its only on Anet where we read these "grudge" stories. Far from reality of the corporate world.

They can exist, but are usually exaggerated here. In both directions. Some people have a tendency to also think some airlines and OEMs are much closer than they actually are. DL is one of the largest airlines in the world and makes sure that the OEMs know it. Airbus and DL are not so chummy that DL will buy whatever Airbus is selling (metaphorically speaking). There are other airlines out there that are like that (Boeing has those customers too).

ElroyJetson wrote:

DL has been using 757's on routes like RIC-ATL and ORF-ATL where a 737-10 MAX would have similar capacity but vastly better economics. Based on data I have seen the MAX 10 would be ideal on truck routes from the Northeast or Midwest to Florida or ATL while the A321Neo might be better suited transcon.

In any case, if true, a huge win for Boeing and the MAX program.

I would think this order is also covering the A320's.

SEAorPWM wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

DL has been using 757's on routes like RIC-ATL and ORF-ATL where a 737-10 MAX would have similar capacity but vastly better economics. Based on data I have seen the MAX 10 would be ideal on truck routes from the Northeast or Midwest to Florida or ATL while the A321Neo might be better suited transcon.

In any case, if true, a huge win for Boeing and the MAX program.

I would think this order is also covering the A320's.

The ex-NW A319s and A320s are aging and need to exit at some point. I think this is just a capacity augment

The play here is where they're using the 752 on routes that don't play to its competitive advantage. DL is flying the 757 in high capacity high frequency domestic markets - an ideal replacement would be Boeing's shockingly "common" potentially certified, or something else entirely, stretch two frames too far which will be totally fine. Totally.

Seriously... how do they do it? Shilling 737s these days has got to feel like selling someone a Datsun, even if it's a MAX.

Does anyone have an idea on seat capacity for Max 10 in Dl config.
Thanks in advance.

Still think Delta is eventually going to order the 787, 787-9.

It's amazing that A&B make any money at all the way that some posters talk about all these airlines getting great deals and basically getting everything dirt cheap.

Capn wrote:

Does anyone have an idea on seat capacity for Max 10 in Dl config.
Thanks in advance.

The -10 is ~64” longer than the -9, so DL can fit 2 more rows of Y in. That’s 192 seats total. For comparison their A321ceo seat 191, Neos 194, all (739ER/-10/A321) have 20F.

Depending on how fuselage spacing is DL might be able to make row 20 on the 739ER (one of the overwing exit rows) 6 abreast like the 738 and 757s (with overwing exits) instead of its current 4 abreast. That would bring it up to 194 identical to the A321neo.

Polot wrote:

Capn wrote:

Does anyone have an idea on seat capacity for Max 10 in Dl config.
Thanks in advance.

The -10 is ~64” longer than the -9, so DL can fit 2 more rows of Y in. That’s 192 seats total. For comparison their A321ceo seat 191, Neos 194, all (739ER/-10/A321) have 20F.

Depending on how fuselage spacing is DL might be able to make row 20 on the 739ER (one of the overwing exit rows) 6 abreast like the 738 and 757s (with overwing exits) instead of its current 4 abreast. That would bring it up to 194 identical to the A321neo.

Thanks great info

Will the max 10 have the same T/O field length as A321neo?

As many have said, the 737 Max 10 can take over any domestic 757 mission at greatly improved route economics, not least because it is 25 tonnes lighter for a similar passenger load.

Anyone ordering anything is excellent news for many folks. Regardless of the hat you’re wearing. Yes there might be some patriotism involved but who cares. You think it’s any different elsewhere?

Personally they must know something regarding the MAX 10 certification and could either accept a delay or have build something into the clause to convert to another Boeing product. They would have covered all their basis for sure. They are here to make money. Not bake sweet cookies.

I expect DL to block the extra aft exit like on the B739ER which means capacity will be maximum 189 seats, which is a 10-seat capacity increase over the B739ER. Cool if they order 100 MAX 10 - a good sized order for Boeing, for sure.

What is this talk of a refreshed livery???

Assuming DL Techops wins service rights on the engines, this is a great addition for Delta. The more I think about it, the more I desire the MAX-10 in DL's fleet. My next six flights on DL would be well served by the -10 MAX. Combined with the massive 739ER fleet, this allows DL great economics of scale.

AndrewJM70 wrote:

As many have said, the 737 Max 10 can take over any domestic 757 mission at greatly improved route economics, not least because it is 25 tonnes lighter for a similar passenger load.

OEW B757 58.44 metric tons, 3915nm range
OEW MAX-10 , 3300 nm range (I would estimate about a 49 metric ton OEW). So less empty weight (while 9.4 tons is significant, just not 25), this is more airframe and engine efficiency.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX

Since the 747 has significantly more range thanks to much more fuel capacity, I wouldn't consider the higher MTOW a bad thing.

That said, 3300 nm range is enough to add Hawaii from the US West coast and easily due any TCON

To those worried about short field performance, those few routes that care will be flown by something else in the DL fleet. A small cut in seats isn't a big deal. Heck, 2x A220 is an option as the customer I would prefer.

Lightsaber

Generally I prefer the inside of an airbus narrowbody due to the width. But I'd like to see this MAX order happen so we have more variety.

micstatic wrote:

What is this talk of a refreshed livery???

Perhaps the refreshed livery is the cockpit windows painted black and the larger DELTA titles as shown on the A321 NEOS. What else could be the refreshes?

sspontak wrote:

micstatic wrote:

What is this talk of a refreshed livery???

Perhaps the refreshed livery is the cockpit windows painted black and the larger DELTA titles as shown on the A321 NEOS. What else could be the refreshes?

The black windows are a Airbus thing, not sure what he is referencing.