smi0006 wrote:

What’s the thinking behind closing the centre runway? Forgive not overly clear on the technical components

Francoflier wrote:

I also predict quite a few 'interesting' moments with that new ILS 25R procedure.

Francoflier wrote:

Considering that most of the flights operating into HKG are freighters, which all park at the southern ramp, taxying to and from the new runway is going to be a right pain in the behind. I also predict quite a few 'interesting' moments with that new ILS 25R procedure.

Ironically, HKG is about as far as it's ever been from needing 3 runways, given its isolationist stance. In fact it has largely gotten by with one runway most of the time for the last 2 and a half years.

Here's to hoping that by the time they have 3 runways operating (which won't be for another 2 at least), they'll have come to their senses. Although by then, who knows how relevant HK will be...

zuckie13 wrote:

Francoflier wrote:

I also predict quite a few 'interesting' moments with that new ILS 25R procedure.

What is it about this procedure that makes you think this? Is it a very abnormal ILS procedure or something?

hongkongflyer wrote:

zuckie13 wrote:

Francoflier wrote:

I also predict quite a few 'interesting' moments with that new ILS 25R procedure.

What is it about this procedure that makes you think this? Is it a very abnormal ILS procedure or something?

https://www.facebook.com/aero320/photos/a.233077757187701/1373640699798062/?type=3

hongkongflyer wrote:

zuckie13 wrote:

Francoflier wrote:

I also predict quite a few 'interesting' moments with that new ILS 25R procedure.

What is it about this procedure that makes you think this? Is it a very abnormal ILS procedure or something?

https://www.facebook.com/aero320/photos/a.233077757187701/1373640699798062/?type=3

GCT64 wrote:

That looks like only (about) 500' clearance over the mountain peak between RUNSU and SAGNI, I'm no expert but that seems to not give too much room for errors.

Francoflier wrote:

Ironically, HKG is about as far as it's ever been from needing 3 runways, given its isolationist stance. I.

Francoflier wrote:

Considering that most of the flights operating into HKG are freighters, which all park at the southern ramp, taxying to and from the new runway is going to be a right pain in the behind. I also predict quite a few 'interesting' moments with that new ILS 25R procedure.

Ironically, HKG is about as far as it's ever been from needing 3 runways, given its isolationist stance. In fact it has largely gotten by with one runway most of the time for the last 2 and a half years.

Here's to hoping that by the time they have 3 runways operating (which won't be for another 2 at least), they'll have come to their senses. Although by then, who knows how relevant HK will be...

zkojq wrote:

GCT64 wrote:

That looks like only (about) 500' clearance over the mountain peak between RUNSU and SAGNI, I'm no expert but that seems to not give too much room for errors.

Sounds like a great place for plane spotting. Been a while since I've hiked the hills behind HK -any trails nearby?

smi0006 wrote:

What’s the thinking behind closing the centre runway? Forgive not overly clear on the technical components

zuckie13 wrote:

What is it about this procedure that makes you think this? Is it a very abnormal ILS procedure or something?

hongkongflyer wrote:

It is only temporary situation where cargo flights are more then passengers flights

zkojq wrote:

Been a while since I've hiked the hills behind HK -any trails nearby?

mdavies06 wrote:

What is the ILS procedure to the west of the airport? that area is shared with 3 other airports MFM, SZX and Zhuhai...

zeke wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

What’s the thinking behind closing the centre runway? Forgive not overly clear on the technical components

I understand making it longer as well as new taxiway exits for traffic to serve the runway to/from the north/south side of the runway. This will also involve a lot of drainage work, and cabling for navigation systems and lights.

zuckie13 wrote:

What is it about this procedure that makes you think this? Is it a very abnormal ILS procedure or something?

The ILS is slightly steeper at 3.1 degrees, as well some terrain further out between 10-15 miles. There is cautions on the chart to not to arm the ILS until closer in as you may not have terrain clearance if you arm it a long way out.

A problem I see for this is the identifier for the new 25R has been recycled from 25C (the original 25R), if someone is infrequent into HKG and remembers that the ILS starts at 14.1 nm it will not end well.

hongkongflyer wrote:

It is only temporary situation where cargo flights are more then passengers flights

Temporary being 2 years.

zkojq wrote:

Been a while since I've hiked the hills behind HK -any trails nearby?

Sure is, few buddies go up there most days on bikes.

mdavies06 wrote:

What is the ILS procedure to the west of the airport? that area is shared with 3 other airports MFM, SZX and Zhuhai...

It isn't really, HKG approach/radar handles both HKG/MFM, Shenzhen airspace is above, and Zhuhai is on the other side of MFM, no factor. The ILS approaches from the west are no factor. There were approaches that took aircraft on the northern side of the airport for a left base onto the old 07L.

J343 wrote:

Just out of curiosity, is there enough land for a new concourse to be build? I was thinking adjacent to the new midfield concourse? Last time I flew in and out of HKG, the 3rd runway was under construction and now its about to be operational. How time flies!

Here's to hoping the government will open HK to the world!

BHRN wrote:

J343 wrote:

Just out of curiosity, is there enough land for a new concourse to be build? I was thinking adjacent to the new midfield concourse? Last time I flew in and out of HKG, the 3rd runway was under construction and now its about to be operational. How time flies!

Here's to hoping the government will open HK to the world!

Look at the map in the first post. The new land created is almost as large as the original island.

hongkongflyer wrote:

Because a new terminal similar to the size of the existing one will be build in that area

Heavierthanair wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

Because a new terminal similar to the size of the existing one will be build in that area

Why on earth would Hongkong need another terminal. With the present political "developments" they will never get back to the former glory precovid

3D101CA wrote:

I doubt HKG will even be near a time of recovery for quite a while. It's not just COVID, but the political problems have only made passenger numbers drop before the pandemic.

Cathay Pacific itself is operating a very tiny schedule compared to what they operated before COVID. Many destinations on there network are still not resumed at the moment.

A third runway really isn't really going to have any benefits now.

hongkongflyer wrote:

The current situation is basically because of the close boarder policies related COVID, which should not be last forever.

classicjets wrote:

Can the title be amended to 08JUL?

zeke wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

The current situation is basically because of the close boarder policies related COVID, which should not be last forever.

Can you please help me understand the scientific basis of that statement.

What situation are you referring to ? what policy are you referring to ? how is this related to COVID ?

Why is so different to the rest of the world ?

zeke wrote:

classicjets wrote:

Can the title be amended to 08JUL?

Should say 16 July, that is when the next database cycle is effective

A0352/22 NOTAMN
Q) VHHK/QMRTT/IV/BO/A/000/999/2219N11355E005
A) VHHH B) 2206160000 C) 2206300000
E) TRIGGER NOTAM-AIP SUP 06/22 (AIRAC) WEF 16 JUN 2022:
-UPDATED INFORMATION OF THE NEW NORTH RUNWAY (RWY 07L/25R) OF HONG
KONG INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT

from https://www.ais.gov.hk/HKAIP/notam.pdf

AIP SUP 06/22 states

"The aerodrome data contained in this AIP Supplement are applicable to the new North Runway. In line with the ICAO
AIRAC procedures, the data published in this AIP Supplement will be effective on 16 June 2022:. The data are
published in advance for operators to ensure their operational readiness when the runway is put into operational use."

from AIP SUP 06/22 06/22 https://www.ais.gov.hk/#SUP1

hongkongflyer wrote:

Planes will begin to land at the new North Runway since 8 Jul

zeke wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

Planes will begin to land at the new North Runway since 8 Jul

I don’t think that will be regular services. The NOTAM for opening is July 16, the runway is not in the database. There is a separate note saying some familiarization flights will happen from July 8, however the data in the AIP data is not to be used. Without published data in the AIP I cannot see how an airline could legally do passenger flights onto that runway.

It might mean for example they will give the opportunity for local operators to do training circuits onto the runway, and to,do,they they would load the next database cycle effective July 16, then switch is back after the flight to the current cycle.

zeke wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

Planes will begin to land at the new North Runway since 8 Jul

I don’t think that will be regular services. The NOTAM for opening is July 16, the runway is not in the database. There is a separate note saying some familiarization flights will happen from July 8, however the data in the AIP data is not to be used. Without published data in the AIP I cannot see how an airline could legally do passenger flights onto that runway.

It might mean for example they will give the opportunity for local operators to do training circuits onto the runway, and to,do,they they would load the next database cycle effective July 16, then switch is back after the flight to the current cycle.

SpoonNZ wrote:

The NOTAM you quoted says June 16, not July.

hongkongflyer wrote:

I believe you know what Airport Authority HK is.

Their press release clearly said that planes will be scheduled to use the newest runway while the centre runway will be closed with effective from 8/7/2022.

zeke wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

What’s the thinking behind closing the centre runway? Forgive not overly clear on the technical components

I understand making it longer as well as new taxiway exits for traffic to serve the runway to/from the north/south side of the runway. This will also involve a lot of drainage work, and cabling for navigation systems and lights.

zuckie13 wrote:

What is it about this procedure that makes you think this? Is it a very abnormal ILS procedure or something?

The ILS is slightly steeper at 3.1 degrees, as well some terrain further out between 10-15 miles. There is cautions on the chart to not to arm the ILS until closer in as you may not have terrain clearance if you arm it a long way out.

A problem I see for this is the identifier for the new 25R has been recycled from 25C (the original 25R), if someone is infrequent into HKG and remembers that the ILS starts at 14.1 nm it will not end well.

hongkongflyer wrote:

It is only temporary situation where cargo flights are more then passengers flights

Temporary being 2 years.

zkojq wrote:

Been a while since I've hiked the hills behind HK -any trails nearby?

Sure is, few buddies go up there most days on bikes.

mdavies06 wrote:

What is the ILS procedure to the west of the airport? that area is shared with 3 other airports MFM, SZX and Zhuhai...

It isn't really, HKG approach/radar handles both HKG/MFM, Shenzhen airspace is above, and Zhuhai is on the other side of MFM, no factor. The ILS approaches from the west are no factor. There were approaches that took aircraft on the northern side of the airport for a left base onto the old 07L.

AviationLuver wrote:

zeke wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

What’s the thinking behind closing the centre runway? Forgive not overly clear on the technical components

I understand making it longer as well as new taxiway exits for traffic to serve the runway to/from the north/south side of the runway. This will also involve a lot of drainage work, and cabling for navigation systems and lights.

zuckie13 wrote:

What is it about this procedure that makes you think this? Is it a very abnormal ILS procedure or something?

The ILS is slightly steeper at 3.1 degrees, as well some terrain further out between 10-15 miles. There is cautions on the chart to not to arm the ILS until closer in as you may not have terrain clearance if you arm it a long way out.

A problem I see for this is the identifier for the new 25R has been recycled from 25C (the original 25R), if someone is infrequent into HKG and remembers that the ILS starts at 14.1 nm it will not end well.

hongkongflyer wrote:

It is only temporary situation where cargo flights are more then passengers flights

Temporary being 2 years.

zkojq wrote:

Been a while since I've hiked the hills behind HK -any trails nearby?

Sure is, few buddies go up there most days on bikes.

mdavies06 wrote:

What is the ILS procedure to the west of the airport? that area is shared with 3 other airports MFM, SZX and Zhuhai...

It isn't really, HKG approach/radar handles both HKG/MFM, Shenzhen airspace is above, and Zhuhai is on the other side of MFM, no factor. The ILS approaches from the west are no factor. There were approaches that took aircraft on the northern side of the airport for a left base onto the old 07L.

How much longer will the 25C Runway be once reconstructed?

zeke wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

I believe you know what Airport Authority HK is.

Their press release clearly said that planes will be scheduled to use the newest runway while the centre runway will be closed with effective from 8/7/2022.

The press release says "operation familiarisation for aircraft taking-off and landing on the Third Runway", "to allow local and overseas stakeholders of the aviation community to familiarise with the related operating procedures and collaborative arrangements in an orderly manner"

The CAD is the issuer of the certification for the runway, and they publish via the AIP the data and charts. The charts I have for 07L/25R all state they are temporary and refer to current NOTAMS.

You can see for yourself the current published AIP cycle has no data or charts for 07L/25R https://www.ais.gov.hk/eaip_20220616/20 ... en-US.html

The charts in the AIP SUP state in red on the top that HKCAD authorisation is required

hongkongflyer wrote:

Traffic landed this morning during the first 30 mins on the new runway include:
CX cargo flights from PVG
PR flight from MNL
DHL flight from BKK
Air HK flight from CTU
HX flight from TPE
A 346 pax-freighter from NBO
CI flight from TPE

No way a familiarity flights for local operators to do training circuits onto the runway

zeke wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

Traffic landed this morning during the first 30 mins on the new runway include:
CX cargo flights from PVG
PR flight from MNL
DHL flight from BKK
Air HK flight from CTU
HX flight from TPE
A 346 pax-freighter from NBO
CI flight from TPE

No way a familiarity flights for local operators to do training circuits onto the runway

What you do and do not know about is what has happened behind the scenes over the last few days.

I don’t think that will be regular services. The NOTAM for opening is July 16, the runway is not in the database. There is a separate note saying some familiarization flights will happen from July 8, however the data in the AIP data is not to be used. Without published data in the AIP I cannot see how an airline could legally do passenger flights onto that runway.

It might mean for example they will give the opportunity for local operators to do training circuits onto the runway, and to,do,they they would load the next database cycle effective July 16, then switch is back after the flight to the current cycle.

hongkongflyer wrote:

I am only replying to your claim about the commencement of operation of the new runway happened today

zeke wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

I am only replying to your claim about the commencement of operation of the new runway happened today

It was correct at time of posting, as I said you have no idea what has transpired since.

hongkongflyer wrote:

No it wasn’t . No flight training conducted between that day and today and the runway is now fully operational.

zeke wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

No it wasn’t . No flight training conducted between that day and today and the runway is now fully operational.

I stated there was no operational approval to use the runway at the time, and I suggested they could use the runway for training as those flights are not considered commercial operations.

Operators did do some training, we had aircraft out using the new taxiways across the centre runways and around 07L/25R.

The data for the runway is still not published in the HKG AIP, and won’t be for the next few cycles (including the the cycle effective in August). Everything is being done from a supplement.

There are known problems with operating into 25R both for takeoff and landing. That has required a number of operational changes to be published.

I will repeat, what I posted was correct at the time, you have no visibility of the changes since then. A broken clock is correct twice a day.

All your statements relied on one press release from the airport authority. They don’t issue the licence for the airport, they don’t approve the runway, they don’t approve or design the operational data, they don’t approve the operators, they don’t issue the NOTAMs, they do not provide control services for the airport.

hongkongflyer wrote:

It is amazed that someone think that the press release (which proved all the information mentioned are correct) issued by the authority who actually responsible for managing the airport is considered unreliable.

zeke wrote:

hongkongflyer wrote:

It is amazed that someone think that the press release (which proved all the information mentioned are correct) issued by the authority who actually responsible for managing the airport is considered unreliable.

The airport authority is no different to the highways department, they are responsible for the infrastructure.

The highways department does not issue licences, they don’t register vehicles, don’t charge people, they don’t make the rules.

The HKIA does not produce the airport procedures, they don’t design the charts, they don’t publish the data, they don’t register aircraft, the don’t issue AOC, they don’t issue licences, they did not do the certification, they don’t issue notams, and they do not provide ATC. They don’t provide weather forecast, they don’t issue the ATIS.

I know where I work we had around 15 new pages pushed to our charts which included various approvals (dated yesterday). We had new performance databases updated on the aircraft and iPads, new training material, and new operational notices.

None of that come from HKIA.

zeke wrote:

[
There are known problems with operating into 25R both for takeoff and landing. That has required a number of operational changes to be published.

hongkongflyer wrote:

But HKIA know when they got the licenses; when the third runway is ready for operation; whether the regulating parties and airlines have all the procedures ready before issuing the press release claiming the new runway will become operational today 8 July, instead, you claimed in the pervious posts that the runway is not ready because next update cycle of those charts and navigations data is few days later.

leader1 wrote:

Just out of curiosity, but what are the issues with operational procedures that runway?