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Someone83
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SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:27 am

SAS has filed for chapter 11, on order to continue their restructuring

https://www.sasgroup.net/newsroom/press ... e-process/

SAS initiates court-supervised process in the United States by a Chapter 11 filing to implement key elements of SAS FORWARD Plan and will continue to serve its customers throughout the process
 
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NYPECO
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:17 am

Knowing nothing about how this legal process works, why is it filled in the United States when the company is based in Sweden?
 
drmlnr1
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:57 am

NYPECO wrote:
Knowing nothing about how this legal process works, why is it filled in the United States when the company is based in Sweden?

The United States is one of the most business friendly nations
 
beachroad
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:15 am

NYPECO wrote:
Knowing nothing about how this legal process works, why is it filled in the United States when the company is based in Sweden?


From what I understand it's because they will have US creditors and operations in the US.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:37 am

 
magtje
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:11 am

This was a long time coming when we look back on SAS action with the first hiring of CityJet and when creation of SAS Connect (former SAS Ireland) and SAS Link. Both created only to dismantle their employees salary and working conditions.
That SAS filed for CH 11 the first day after strike breakout just prove IMO it was the final and intended soulution by the SAS management.
Who to blame is difficult to answer but I think both parties has to be blamed.
Both parties has believed that they lived in a protected state where the gov of NO,SE and DK wil come to the rescue (always) and simultaneous somehow believed they could continue being an LCC (with frills) with high operating cost, debt and pension obligations.

What the future of SAS will be will be interesting to watch, but IMO SAS as today is not substantial.
Last edited by magtje on Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Petri70
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:14 am

This article goes into fair deal of detail on why international airlines have chosen the US Chapter 11. https://www.davispolk.com/sites/default ... r%20II.pdf
 
Vicenza
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:57 am

NYPECO wrote:
Knowing nothing about how this legal process works, why is it filled in the United States when the company is based in Sweden?


Because Chapter 11 bankruptcy in the US is not actually bankruptcy as it would be in Europe.
 
Flyingsottsman
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:52 am

How many airlines through out the years, that is an airline that represents 3 or more countries have ended up in failure, I can think of 3, East African, Air Afrique, MSA Malaysia Singapore Airlines, in today's world I am not surprised SAS is filing for Chapter 11 it must be next to impossible for an airline to represent 3 countries, how do you decide which countries gets the most services do Sweden, Norway and Denmark have different working practices to each other different pay scales or different cost of living between the 3 countries. I hope they manage to stick around as they have been a big part of the European aviation scene, but it must be very hard for one airline to represent 3 countries these days.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:56 am

Ryanair manages to represent the whole of Europe, and makes huge profits at the same time. They even fly domestic routes within Scandinavia
 
usflyer msp
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:09 am

Their CEO has great experience with using US bankruptcy laws to restructure foreign carriers; Aeromexico, Avianca and now SAS...and that is just within the last 30 months or so. The writing was on the wall.
 
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capshandler
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:24 am

Since its Spanair adventure, SAS restructuring is long overdue.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:43 am

Flyingsottsman wrote:
How many airlines through out the years, that is an airline that represents 3 or more countries have ended up in failure, I can think of 3, East African, Air Afrique, MSA Malaysia Singapore Airlines, in today's world I am not surprised SAS is filing for Chapter 11 it must be next to impossible for an airline to represent 3 countries, how do you decide which countries gets the most services do Sweden, Norway and Denmark have different working practices to each other different pay scales or different cost of living between the 3 countries. I hope they manage to stick around as they have been a big part of the European aviation scene, but it must be very hard for one airline to represent 3 countries these days.


Well, despite some troubles, it has worked for Norway, Sweden and Denmark for 75 years. Norwegian, Swedes and Danes work well together and has many of the same views. Basically Denmark has the main airport, Sweden has the head office, Norway has a lot of domestic flights. The Norwegian government is not really an official owner anymore, but I believe we still own a bit of stock through our pension fund and oil fund, but far from what the Swedes and Danes do.
 
ltbewr
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:00 pm

Apparently a toxic mix of issues led to this filing in the USA. Financial issues from the Pandemic and long before it. Internal labor issues, including failing since Nov. 2021 to come to agreements with raises and adjustments in working conditions with key unions.Huge pension and benefits costs. Hiring new pilots for its subsidiaries instead of rehiring pilots laid-off during the Pandemic. . It will be interesting to see how this works out, but like many here, hope it doesn't destroy the airline nor hurt its workers. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... li=BBnb7Kz
 
PB26
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:32 pm

IMHO, since Nineties SAS has been struggled, unable to fit with new conditions of Europe skies. They gradually became smaller and smaller, divested stakes in Continental, Spanair, British Midland and LanChile, focusing in Europe more and more, trying to be relevant and independent.

Maybe is time to join Lufthansa's system? I don't know, really, but I hope the best SAS, with good memories of this great and pionnering airline, with a tri-national pool which run sucessfully the airline for 50 years.
 
magtje
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:25 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Ryanair manages to represent the whole of Europe, and makes huge profits at the same time. They even fly domestic routes within Scandinavia

Ryanair can't be compared with SAS.
Ryanair is a pretty young airline (compared with SAS) and has always been an private company with focus on lean and small admin and operation.
SAS is a much older company with a lot of debt and pension obligations.
In additional it has been a state owned company from the beginning. Not 1 state but 3 state which complicates the whole thing. Are the any multi state owned airline who has been successful? That SAS has survived so long with it's condition is nothing but amazing.
The main problem with a state own airline is that other issues takes priority over running a efficient and economical airline. Jobs, route network, international relationship and social services/ structure are often a top priority for an state airline like SAS.
Eventhru SAS looks like an well integrated airline with one goal, it has always been struggling with 3 nations wanting the same.
Having the main hub in their country. HQ, jobs, biggest route network etc in their country.

That worked well before the deregulation, but not now there anybody can fly everywhere and to that prices they want to/ can afford to.
Ryanair was established when EU was deregulated and therefore doesn't have big baggage of obligation inherent from the time airlines was protected by the governments.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:39 pm

Is Chapter 11 a bankruptcy protection? If so maybe it's good for the protection of the pensions for people who have worked in SAS for 30-40 years.
 
M564038
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:54 pm

Why make a second thread about the SAS troubles? This is just a strategic subset of the pilot strike, which is again just a subset of the employer hostile restructuring.
The major thing is that SAS will never survive if they have a leadership of outsiders spending more time being at war with the employers and scandinavian work culture. Ie. they are at war with their own image as a solid, safe and trustworthy scandinavian company. Maybe the SAS leadership should be working with the rest of SAS strategizing and restructuring for the future, making an attractive product, rayher than tear down their entire value and image?

SAS needs to find their place in the market again, they need a new Carlzon, restructuring while retainig central values and it’s scandinavian core.
 
magtje
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:57 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Is Chapter 11 a bankruptcy protection? If so maybe it's good for the protection of the pensions for people who have worked in SAS for 30-40 years.

I cant answer for the Danish and Swedish employees, but in Norway the company has to pay in to the government a certain % of the monthly salary.
Then you retire the government will pay out the amount the company has paid in pension for you. You are guaranteed 66% payout each month based on your last paycheck. This system is not company based but takes into account all jobs you have had in Norway and payed taxes for, regardless of how many times you changes industries or companies.
If you have worked and payed taxes for a min yrs you are guarantee a min pension by the Norwegian gov.
 
Airbuser
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:14 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Is Chapter 11 a bankruptcy protection? If so maybe it's good for the protection of the pensions for people who have worked in SAS for 30-40 years.


My pension was wiped out in chapter 11 bankruptcy in US.
 
seansasLCY
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:15 pm

M564038 wrote:
Why make a second thread about the SAS troubles? This is just a strategic subset of the pilot strike, which is again just a subset of the employer hostile restructuring.
The major thing is that SAS will never survive if they have a leadership of outsiders spending more time being at war with the employers and scandinavian work culture. Ie. they are at war with their own image as a solid, safe and trustworthy scandinavian company. Maybe the SAS leadership should be working with the rest of SAS strategizing and restructuring for the future, making an attractive product, rayher than tear down their entire value and image?

SAS needs to find their place in the market again, they need a new Carlzon, restructuring while retainig central values and it’s scandinavian core.


Out of interest are you employed by SAS? This is the exact line being used by the pilots union. Perhaps look at it differently, maybe SAS won’t survive if it’s pilots believe they are defending a business culture which has moved on elsewhere. The public are not willing to pay more for “Scandinavian values”. They chose Norwegian or Ryanair and thus SAS is uncompetitive paying Bjorn and Pernilla higher salaries than their rivals.
 
braniff2hav
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:18 pm

I hope that the employees see the handwriting on the wall and can find positions at other jobs/careers - because SAS certainly has no interest in their employees/staff. Find a culture that cares about the employees and customers. SAS lost its way years ago and recently their management/board has proven they are ruthless and have not a care for what makes any company prosper -- employees and customers. Good riddance is all I can think right now.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:23 pm

braniff2hav wrote:
I hope that the employees see the handwriting on the wall and can find positions at other jobs/careers - because SAS certainly has no interest in their employees/staff. Find a culture that cares about the employees and customers. SAS lost its way years ago and recently their management/board has proven they are ruthless and have not a care for what makes any company prosper -- employees and customers. Good riddance is all I can think right now.


Do you prefer to have Ryanair instead of the current SAS ? I do not think Michael O'Leary has much interest in employees/staff. MOL has proven he is ruthless
 
3D101CA
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:44 pm

Why do foriegn companies declare bankruptcy in the US? What does the United states offer that something in Europe can't? Other international airlines (like LATAM) have done the same thing, but it does confuse me to why this can't be done in there home countries.
 
M564038
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:47 pm

The scandi-countries doesn’t have an equivalent to chapter 11. If you declare bankrupcy, it is over.
3D101CA wrote:
Why do foriegn companies declare bankruptcy in the US? What does the United states offer that something in Europe can't? Other international airlines (like LATAM) have done the same thing, but it does confuse me to why this can't be done in there home countries.
 
M564038
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:57 pm

I am not employed by SAS.
There are other ways to make your business attractive, increase efficiency and income than having an outright war within the company. You can cut cost without outsourcing and moving «Scandinavian jobs in Scandinavia» abroad. Many comparisons with Norwegian here, but one of the offers presented by the pilots and rejected by the sas administration/leadership was an outright copy of Norwegian’s terms. They want to go below. This is a clash of cultures, and since there is a solid political and societal backlash against temporary employment, contract work and outsourcing in Scandinavia at the moment, (Form of employ made a huge difference for the economic outcome of the pandemic for most people) Van der Werff couldn’t be more out of step with popular opinion.

seansasLCY wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Why make a second thread about the SAS troubles? This is just a strategic subset of the pilot strike, which is again just a subset of the employer hostile restructuring.
The major thing is that SAS will never survive if they have a leadership of outsiders spending more time being at war with the employers and scandinavian work culture. Ie. they are at war with their own image as a solid, safe and trustworthy scandinavian company. Maybe the SAS leadership should be working with the rest of SAS strategizing and restructuring for the future, making an attractive product, rayher than tear down their entire value and image?

SAS needs to find their place in the market again, they need a new Carlzon, restructuring while retainig central values and it’s scandinavian core.


Out of interest are you employed by SAS? This is the exact line being used by the pilots union. Perhaps look at it differently, maybe SAS won’t survive if it’s pilots believe they are defending a business culture which has moved on elsewhere. The public are not willing to pay more for “Scandinavian values”. They chose Norwegian or Ryanair and thus SAS is uncompetitive paying Bjorn and Pernilla higher salaries than their rivals.
 
J343
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:05 pm

What would a Finnair take over look like? SAS entering oneworld maybe?
 
Indy
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:34 pm

NYPECO wrote:
Knowing nothing about how this legal process works, why is it filled in the United States when the company is based in Sweden?


I wondered the same. The first thought that came to mind is that U.S. bankruptcy courts have a history of allowing companies to default on obligations to the workers. Europe is more labor friendly. I wonder if someone can confirm or deny this with evidence. Do European bankruptcy courts typically allow an airline to default on pension programs or whatever the European equivalent of that would be? Do European courts allow airlines out of labor contracts and do they impose new wages?
 
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Mortyman
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:43 pm

SAS's largest unsecured creditors ( IN NORWEGIAN KRONER )

1 Danish and Swedish states' two hybrid loans combined* 5 982 255 037
2 Private players' hybrid loans together 1 610 407 086
3 Danish state unsecured loan 1 539 658 943
4 Norwegian state unsecured loan 1 504 313 012
5 Swedish state unsecured loan 1 492 871 049
6 Bond loan issued in Switzerland 1 336 694 541
7 København Lufthavne AS (Copenhagen airport) 255 098 031
8 Avinor AS (Norwegian airport operator) 140 942 100
9 Eurocontrol 118 040 324
10 Swedavia 78 324 318
11 JAI Aviation Fund 2016‐01 LLC 62 635 997
12 Rolls Royce PLC 50 687 182
13 Lufthansa Technik AG 47 555 117
14 Regional Jet OU (Xfly) 46 463 821
15 CityJet 42 651 908
16 Jin Shan 7 Ireland Company Limited 38 878 527
17 Tata Consultancy Services Sverige AB 37 244 541
18 Geodis Denmark A/S 36 779 833
19 Workforce Logiq Sweden AB 35 084 602
20 Altuna Hangar KB 34 525 390

27 Select Service Partner Norge AS 14 298 758
28 Widerøe Ground Handling AS 14 078 551



* Dollar exchange rate ISK 9.98
**** The Danish state accounts for 58 percent and the Swedish state accounts for 42 percent of this hybrid loan
Source: SAS's application for Chapter 11

https://e24.no/naeringsliv/i/JxjogX/sas ... Fwww.vg.no
 
Toinou
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:45 pm

Indy wrote:
NYPECO wrote:
Knowing nothing about how this legal process works, why is it filled in the United States when the company is based in Sweden?


I wondered the same. The first thought that came to mind is that U.S. bankruptcy courts have a history of allowing companies to default on obligations to the workers. Europe is more labor friendly. I wonder if someone can confirm or deny this with evidence. Do European bankruptcy courts typically allow an airline to default on pension programs or whatever the European equivalent of that would be? Do European courts allow airlines out of labor contracts and do they impose new wages?

On most issues, European companies cannot default on their obligations to workers. In case of bankruptcy, workers are the first to be paid. Pensions is especially protected as it is either handled by government or it has to be completely separated of the company finances.
Anyway, SAS is not bankrupt in the European meaning of it, so I don't think that this procedure will have any impact on those aspects. It probably is the same about contracts: there are not of US jurisdiction, so I don't see how this procedure could affect them.
 
jamesontheroad
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:48 pm

J343 wrote:
What would a Finnair take over look like? SAS entering oneworld maybe?


Finnair don't take need to take over. They have plenty of surplus fleet capacity right now, and already a small long-haul base at ARN. If they are nimble, they could easily expand in Norway, Sweden and Denmark without having to engage with SK.
 
Kikko19
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:53 pm

jamesontheroad wrote:
J343 wrote:
What would a Finnair take over look like? SAS entering oneworld maybe?


Finnair don't take need to take over. They have plenty of surplus fleet capacity right now, and already a small long-haul base at ARN. If they are nimble, they could easily expand in Norway, Sweden and Denmark without having to engage with SK.

Finnair has it's own problems. Their "shortest way to Asia" model is dead in the water. They better clean their own house before venturing in acquisitions. I would rather see BT venturing and opening a base in Stockholm and CPH.
 
THS214
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:04 pm

Vicenza wrote:
NYPECO wrote:
Knowing nothing about how this legal process works, why is it filled in the United States when the company is based in Sweden?


Because Chapter 11 bankruptcy in the US is not actually bankruptcy as it would be in Europe.


Some European countries have such proceeding but not all.
 
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ADent
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:08 pm

In general in the US pensions are protected. There are accounting standards to ‘ensure’ they are properly funded.

If it turns out the company didn’t fund things and the pension is totally messed up the PBGC can take over. The PBGC only guarantees up to a modest amount per year.

If the pension is short, but not totally wrecked then the employees take a cut.

Not sure how many fall into the cracks and get totally lost.

It seems like very few US companies offer true pensions now - it’s all 401k accounts in my part of the business world.
 
luckyone
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:12 pm

Mortyman wrote:
SAS's largest unsecured creditors ( IN NORWEGIAN KRONER )

1 Danish and Swedish states' two hybrid loans combined* 5 982 255 037
2 Private players' hybrid loans together 1 610 407 086
3 Danish state unsecured loan 1 539 658 943
4 Norwegian state unsecured loan 1 504 313 012
5 Swedish state unsecured loan 1 492 871 049
6 Bond loan issued in Switzerland 1 336 694 541
7 København Lufthavne AS (Copenhagen airport) 255 098 031
8 Avinor AS (Norwegian airport operator) 140 942 100
9 Eurocontrol 118 040 324
10 Swedavia 78 324 318
11 JAI Aviation Fund 2016‐01 LLC 62 635 997
12 Rolls Royce PLC 50 687 182
13 Lufthansa Technik AG 47 555 117
14 Regional Jet OU (Xfly) 46 463 821
15 CityJet 42 651 908
16 Jin Shan 7 Ireland Company Limited 38 878 527
17 Tata Consultancy Services Sverige AB 37 244 541
18 Geodis Denmark A/S 36 779 833
19 Workforce Logiq Sweden AB 35 084 602
20 Altuna Hangar KB 34 525 390

27 Select Service Partner Norge AS 14 298 758
28 Widerøe Ground Handling AS 14 078 551



* Dollar exchange rate ISK 9.98
**** The Danish state accounts for 58 percent and the Swedish state accounts for 42 percent of this hybrid loan
Source: SAS's application for Chapter 11

https://e24.no/naeringsliv/i/JxjogX/sas ... Fwww.vg.no

Not to nitpick, but I believe ISK is Icelandic kroner. NOK is Norwegian kroner.
 
luckyone
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:14 pm

ADent wrote:
It seems like very few US companies offer true pensions now - it’s all 401k accounts in my part of the business world.

Which in the long run is better for employees in either case because either company goes bust or they find a way to reneg on their pension obligations. IMHO pensions in the private sector are just a Ponzi scheme.
 
bar1
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:20 pm

Chapter 11 bankruptcy because most of the leasing companies are US based (or has HQ there). In general, US law has no jurisdiction in Europe or Scandinavia, so Chapter 11 bankruptcy means nothing for creditors based in Europe.
 
THS214
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:21 pm

luckyone wrote:
ADent wrote:
It seems like very few US companies offer true pensions now - it’s all 401k accounts in my part of the business world.

Which in the long run is better for employees in either case because either company goes bust or they find a way to reneg on their pension obligations. IMHO pensions in the private sector are just a Ponzi scheme.


As this thread is about SAS, we should talk about pension in Scandinavia. I doubt the US pension laws and chapter 11 mean anything for pensions in Scandinavia.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:30 pm

luckyone wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
SAS's largest unsecured creditors ( IN NORWEGIAN KRONER )

1 Danish and Swedish states' two hybrid loans combined* 5 982 255 037
2 Private players' hybrid loans together 1 610 407 086
3 Danish state unsecured loan 1 539 658 943
4 Norwegian state unsecured loan 1 504 313 012
5 Swedish state unsecured loan 1 492 871 049
6 Bond loan issued in Switzerland 1 336 694 541
7 København Lufthavne AS (Copenhagen airport) 255 098 031
8 Avinor AS (Norwegian airport operator) 140 942 100
9 Eurocontrol 118 040 324
10 Swedavia 78 324 318
11 JAI Aviation Fund 2016‐01 LLC 62 635 997
12 Rolls Royce PLC 50 687 182
13 Lufthansa Technik AG 47 555 117
14 Regional Jet OU (Xfly) 46 463 821
15 CityJet 42 651 908
16 Jin Shan 7 Ireland Company Limited 38 878 527
17 Tata Consultancy Services Sverige AB 37 244 541
18 Geodis Denmark A/S 36 779 833
19 Workforce Logiq Sweden AB 35 084 602
20 Altuna Hangar KB 34 525 390

27 Select Service Partner Norge AS 14 298 758
28 Widerøe Ground Handling AS 14 078 551



* Dollar exchange rate ISK 9.98
**** The Danish state accounts for 58 percent and the Swedish state accounts for 42 percent of this hybrid loan
Source: SAS's application for Chapter 11

https://e24.no/naeringsliv/i/JxjogX/sas ... Fwww.vg.no

Not to nitpick, but I believe ISK is Icelandic kroner. NOK is Norwegian kroner.



Don't know how that ISK got in there. It is not in the article. Discard that. It is NOK
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:48 pm

Airbuser wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Is Chapter 11 a bankruptcy protection? If so maybe it's good for the protection of the pensions for people who have worked in SAS for 30-40 years.


My pension was wiped out in chapter 11 bankruptcy in US.


Wow, I'm sorry to hear that.

magtje wrote:
I cant answer for the Danish and Swedish employees, but in Norway the company has to pay in to the government a certain % of the monthly salary.
Then you retire the government will pay out the amount the company has paid in pension for you. You are guaranteed 66% payout each month based on your last paycheck. This system is not company based but takes into account all jobs you have had in Norway and payed taxes for, regardless of how many times you changes industries or companies.
If you have worked and payed taxes for a min yrs you are guarantee a min pension by the Norwegian gov.


That makes sense. I think you're right about this. But I believe SAS has a lot of pension obligations also, which would be on top of the govt. guaranteed pension?
 
Someone83
Topic Author
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:14 pm

Most companies in Norway are over on "401k"s anyway, together with a public part, and assume its similar in Sweden and Denmark?
 
jbs2886
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:31 pm

bar1 wrote:
Chapter 11 bankruptcy because most of the leasing companies are US based (or has HQ there). In general, US law has no jurisdiction in Europe or Scandinavia, so Chapter 11 bankruptcy means nothing for creditors based in Europe.


Not really, a lot have that has moved to Ireland. Ch. 11 absolutely does mean things for creditors in Europe - it means something to *every* creditor. It is not just US-based creditors impacted, but all. The US Ch. 11 process always business to continue largely as normal, but to restructure.
 
BoeingG
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:34 pm

So the union would rather its pilots be jobless than negotiate reasonable terms? Surely it isn’t oblivious to SAS’s dire financial state.

Seems a callous choice.
 
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GlobalAirways
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Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:39 pm

bar1 wrote:
Chapter 11 bankruptcy because most of the leasing companies are US based (or has HQ there). In general, US law has no jurisdiction in Europe or Scandinavia, so Chapter 11 bankruptcy means nothing for creditors based in Europe.


The United States has the most experience with Bankruptcy. Foreign companies with only minimal ties to the United States can benefits from this experience. Perhaps the most important and significant key benefit is that while a chapter 11 case is pending in the United States there is a worldwide stay of actions against the debtor and management often retains control of the company in contrast to many other jurisdictions.
 
bar1
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:59 pm

Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:52 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Not really, a lot have that has moved to Ireland. Ch. 11 absolutely does mean things for creditors in Europe - it means something to *every* creditor. It is not just US-based creditors impacted, but all. The US Ch. 11 process always business to continue largely as normal, but to restructure.


US law doesn't reach that far, unless stated in leasing/loan contract.
If the contract states that disagreements should be settled in US then, yes.
 
M564038
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:54 pm

Seems like the right thing to do, yes.

BoeingG wrote:
So the union would rather its pilots be jobless than negotiate reasonable terms? Surely it isn’t oblivious to SAS’s dire financial state.

Seems a callous choice.
 
bar1
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:59 pm

Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:03 pm

GlobalAirways wrote:
...Perhaps the most important and significant key benefit is that while a chapter 11 case is pending in the United States there is a worldwide stay of actions against the debtor and management often retains control of the company in contrast to many other jurisdictions.


The worldwide stay of actions is 100% voluntary (outside US) and not regulated by any European law... If a large Norwegian/Danish/Swedish creditor want to drag SAS to the local bankruptcy process, they are free to do that (if credit agreement is broken by debtor).
Chapter 11 process is often preferred as it is more "flexible" and could provide better long term solution for creditor and debtor.
Last edited by bar1 on Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 14180
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:27 pm

Indy wrote:
NYPECO wrote:
Knowing nothing about how this legal process works, why is it filled in the United States when the company is based in Sweden?


I wondered the same. The first thought that came to mind is that U.S. bankruptcy courts have a history of allowing companies to default on obligations to the workers. Europe is more labor friendly. I wonder if someone can confirm or deny this with evidence. Do European bankruptcy courts typically allow an airline to default on pension programs or whatever the European equivalent of that would be? Do European courts allow airlines out of labor contracts and do they impose new wages?


I don’t know how it works in Denmark or Sweden but the pension my Norwegian employer pays into is with a Norwegian provider under my name, the company could go tits up but they can’t touch the money they have already paid into my account.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4873
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:39 pm

Airbuser wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Is Chapter 11 a bankruptcy protection? If so maybe it's good for the protection of the pensions for people who have worked in SAS for 30-40 years.


My pension was wiped out in chapter 11 bankruptcy in US.


Yep, lost out when United went 11, and US Airways went 11. They were able to wipe out a majority of what I had in stock and retirement. Pennies on the dollar unfortunately.

I do hope SAS is able to get through this and come out stronger!
 
fessor
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: SAS files for chapter 11

Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:11 pm

M564038 wrote:
The scandi-countries doesn’t have an equivalent to chapter 11. If you declare bankrupcy, it is over.
3D101CA wrote:
Why do foriegn companies declare bankruptcy in the US? What does the United states offer that something in Europe can't? Other international airlines (like LATAM) have done the same thing, but it does confuse me to why this can't be done in there home countries.


Denmark actually has but then the company should be registered in Denmark.
It's called rekonstruktion, but is more difficult to use than chapter 11

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