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United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:40 pm

US investigators are examining a United Airlines Boeing 737 Max 9’s flight-management computer after an incident in which the system’s displays apparently blanked before the aircraft inadvertently landed on the wrong runway at Pittsburgh.


https://africapearl.com/2022/07/05/unit ... -news.html
 
 
freakyrat
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:32 pm

Whatwver happened to Handflying to the correct Runway if the automation fails like it obviously did here and then discuss what happened in the ramp area?
 
WorldFlier
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:35 pm

freakyrat wrote:
Whatwver happened to Handflying to the correct Runway if the automation fails like it obviously did here and then discuss what happened in the ramp area?



Handflying? LOL! You sound old.


(Seriously though, what happened to handflying and awareness!)
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:42 pm

They must have pulled the recorders and computers at base and replaced them because the aircraft was never out of service for a period of time since this incident.
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:10 pm

I guess I’m old school. I was taught - even as a single engine land IFR ( I Follow Roads ) student pilot that I am responsible for where my aircraft goes and what it does.

For the pilot of an airliner: the gadgets act up, SHUT THEM OFF AND FLY THE AIRPLANE.
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:11 pm

One more thing: would this have even been a noteworthy event had the aircraft been anything but a MAX?
 
EssentialBusDC
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:21 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
One more thing: would this have even been a noteworthy event had the aircraft been anything but a MAX?



Landing on a wrong runway is noteworthy, regardless of aircraft type. Ask Delta about landing a 767 on the taxiway in ATL.
 
Cdydatzigs
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:25 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
One more thing: would this have even been a noteworthy event had the aircraft been anything but a MAX?

Probably not, but the scrutiny the MAX is currently under is not only warranted, but isn't going a way for a while. So for the foreseeable future, whenever minor events like this happen with the MAX, they need to be handled swiftly and responsibly.
 
orlandocfi
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:25 pm

The FMCs aren’t necessary to complete a visual approach. But they can definitely be a distraction when (unskillfully) reprogrammed close in and the fix sequencing gets screwed up. I can definitely see how task saturation led up to this event, but it’s better to fess up than try to blame the automation.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:30 pm

Cdydatzigs wrote:
WesternDC6B wrote:
One more thing: would this have even been a noteworthy event had the aircraft been anything but a MAX?

Probably not, but the scrutiny the MAX is currently under is not only warranted, but isn't going a way for a while. So for the foreseeable future, whenever minor events like this happen with the MAX, they need to be handled swiftly and responsibly.


Sorry, this makes no sense. How many unique autopilot components does the MAX have? As far as the publicly available information reveals, this incident has zero to do with the particular aircraft and everything to do with bad piloting.
Last edited by Cubsrule on Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:34 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Cdydatzigs wrote:
WesternDC6B wrote:
One more thing: would this have even been a noteworthy event had the aircraft been anything but a MAX?

Probably not, but the scrutiny the MAX is currently under is not only warranted, but isn't going a way for a while. So for the foreseeable future, whenever minor events like this happen with the MAX, they need to be handled swiftly and responsibly.


Sorry, this makes no sense. How many unique autopilot components does the MAX have? As far as the publicly available information reveals, this incident has zero to do with aircraft your and everything to do with bad piloting.


I agree the pilots are required to make a safe legal landing if possible. But it appears there was an aircraft issue here also. Or was it clear user error?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:37 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Cdydatzigs wrote:
Probably not, but the scrutiny the MAX is currently under is not only warranted, but isn't going a way for a while. So for the foreseeable future, whenever minor events like this happen with the MAX, they need to be handled swiftly and responsibly.


Sorry, this makes no sense. How many unique autopilot components does the MAX have? As far as the publicly available information reveals, this incident has zero to do with aircraft your and everything to do with bad piloting.


I agree the pilots are required to make a safe legal landing if possible. But it appears there was an aircraft issue here also. Or was it clear user error?


My point isn’t that there was no aircraft issue. It seems possible if not likely that there was. But there are a lot of common FMC/autopilot components between the MAX and other aircraft (actually, between all transport category aircraft) and it does not appear likely that this was a “MAX issue.”
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:39 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
One more thing: would this have even been a noteworthy event had the aircraft been anything but a MAX?


Probably not considering a competing aircraft at AA had a pretty serious incident after departure with multiple system failures including displays. It is what it is at this point, I’m sure every DC-10 incident was talked about for awhile after its grounding
 
Babyshark
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:43 pm

Probably will just be a human factors type safety investigation and this is the last the public will hear about it. But if done right they’ll try to find what was the primary causes of this and then adjust training.

It won’t be because they were not hand flying or overly reliant on automation. You want to go bigger than that. What was briefed? What was communicated? What was happening with monitoring? Workload management?

That’s the stuff that makes a difference. Figure it out and the rest falls into place.
 
hpff
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:52 pm

Cdydatzigs wrote:
WesternDC6B wrote:
One more thing: would this have even been a noteworthy event had the aircraft been anything but a MAX?

Probably not, but the scrutiny the MAX is currently under is not only warranted, but isn't going a way for a while. So for the foreseeable future, whenever minor events like this happen with the MAX, they need to be handled swiftly and responsibly.


Yes - a plane landed on a runway that it wasn't authorised to land on, because of multiple system failures and human errors. I think the Pittsburgh center may have stopped them if there had been a problem, but I'm surprised the controller seemed to have said nothing (based on the avherald article)
 
kiowa
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:54 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Cdydatzigs wrote:
Probably not, but the scrutiny the MAX is currently under is not only warranted, but isn't going a way for a while. So for the foreseeable future, whenever minor events like this happen with the MAX, they need to be handled swiftly and responsibly.


Sorry, this makes no sense. How many unique autopilot components does the MAX have? As far as the publicly available information reveals, this incident has zero to do with aircraft your and everything to do with bad piloting.


I agree the pilots are required to make a safe legal landing if possible. But it appears there was an aircraft issue here also. Or was it clear user error?



A third factor is ATC.

According to the inquiry, the controller had noticed the misalignment just before touchdown but decided that, given the aircraft’s height, allowing it to land was “more appropriate”. Traffic volume was light at the time. None of the 174 occupants was injured and the jet (N37513) was undamaged.
 
btfarrwm
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:57 pm

Poor piloting in VFR conditions for sure. However, in the article it says the controller decided to "let them land". Did they receive clearance to land on 28L instead of 28C? I didn't know a controller had authority to "allow" a wrong runway landing, and that seems questionable to me. Assuming their flight instruments were displaying the proper info and the airport was under VFR conditions, there is really no defense the pilots can make for this type of mistake. I'm sure they will have a very uncomfortable meeting with their chief pilot and receive remedial training, but with no injuries or damage to the airplane I'm sure they will fly again.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:00 pm

No defense, of course. But might this be a case of pulling up and going around was more hazardous than "allowing" them to land on a runway that was suitable anyway?
 
dstblj52
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:10 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
Poor piloting in VFR conditions for sure. However, in the article it says the controller decided to "let them land". Did they receive clearance to land on 28L instead of 28C? I didn't know a controller had authority to "allow" a wrong runway landing, and that seems questionable to me. Assuming their flight instruments were displaying the proper info and the airport was under VFR conditions, there is really no defense the pilots can make for this type of mistake. I'm sure they will have a very uncomfortable meeting with their chief pilot and receive remedial training, but with no injuries or damage to the airplane I'm sure they will fly again.

I suppose the control decided as that runway was empty at the time letting them land would screw up the pattern less then preventing them landing
 
2eng2efficient
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:13 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
No defense, of course. But might this be a case of pulling up and going around was more hazardous than "allowing" them to land on a runway that was suitable anyway?


Agreed, if ATC had informed them of the misalignment, then perhaps they could have declared an emergency (on the basis of losing navigational equipment) and proceeded to land on 28L with permission. Then again, 2 mile final is not a lot of time for communicating and decision making.
 
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PITingres
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:15 pm

It would be interesting to hear the ATC tape. Was there ever an acknowledgement from either side that "hey, I'm / you're landing on the wrong runway, should I proceed / you may proceed anyway?"

I'm certainly no pilot, but I do have to wonder whether I would just silently land anyway once I noticed that I was landing on an L not a C.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:41 pm

The FMC is a relatively old computer, technology wise. Sometimes it can be slow and a bit unresponsive. I wonder if that's what happened when it "blanked" after changing approach multiple times.
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:16 pm

As far as the tower controller not questioning them about the runway they were lined up with, there is plenty of time to do that even on a mile final. So that leads me to question if the controller had all the extended runway centerlines up on the video map for the tower display? If they were displayed then it is very very easy to tell they are on final for the wrong runway regardless of how close 28C is, unless the display range was set at a distance of 20 or 25 miles and even then it should have still be pretty obvious.

So yes as someone mentioned previously, ATC is a third party in this incident and the MAX had nothing to do with it.
 
freakyrat
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:22 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
Whatwver happened to Handflying to the correct Runway if the automation fails like it obviously did here and then discuss what happened in the ramp area?



Handflying? LOL! You sound old.


(Seriously though, what happened to handflying and awareness!)


I'm and old steamguage guy who hasn't flown in quite sometime but I have some time in an A320 Simulator which I mosty hand flown. It seems with all the automation pilots forget about basic airmanship skills.
 
freakyrat
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:26 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
I guess I’m old school. I was taught - even as a single engine land IFR ( I Follow Roads ) student pilot that I am responsible for where my aircraft goes and what it does.

For the pilot of an airliner: the gadgets act up, SHUT THEM OFF AND FLY THE AIRPLANE.


I've talked to many Old Skool Airline Pilots who like to handfly their respective airplanes.
 
freakyrat
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:36 pm

Babyshark wrote:
Probably will just be a human factors type safety investigation and this is the last the public will hear about it. But if done right they’ll try to find what was the primary causes of this and then adjust training.

It won’t be because they were not hand flying or overly reliant on automation. You want to go bigger than that. What was briefed? What was communicated? What was happening with monitoring? Workload management?

That’s the stuff that makes a difference. Figure it out and the rest falls into place.


Agreed, I was once riding jumpseat on a CRJ200 into SWF from CVG and because of some military areas being active ATC gave the crew a reroute during our descent. Well this is when they had to copy it down and bring out the IFR charts to figure it out before typing it into the FMS. Well the FO couldn't find the reroute or something on the IFR chart and the Captain being and old hat at it told him just ask for direct to this certain fix and it would clear the military area in question which the FO asked ATC for and got it and then it was typed in the FMS and all was well. So Automation is great but it sometimes increases the pilot workload like in the CRJ flight I was on and in the above case with the 739MAX.
 
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Moose135
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:45 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
For the pilot of an airliner: the gadgets act up, SHUT THEM OFF AND FLY THE AIRPLANE.


"Old school" pilots without all the gadgets have landed on the wrong runway before too...
 
DualQual
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:59 pm

PITingres wrote:
It would be interesting to hear the ATC tape. Was there ever an acknowledgement from either side that "hey, I'm / you're landing on the wrong runway, should I proceed / you may proceed anyway?"

I'm certainly no pilot, but I do have to wonder whether I would just silently land anyway once I noticed that I was landing on an L not a C.


If a pilot notices they’re not landing on the correct runway they should go around. I can think of maybe 2 circumstances where I’d consider landing anyway. 1 involves low fuel. In that case I’m doing the carpet dance anyway for how I got myself into such a predicament. The other might be if I got a predictive windshear alert in the missed approach path. In either event I’ve hopefully reviewed the NOTAMS to make sure the runway isn’t closed for stuff like construction equipment on it to fill in the giant hole in the concrete of the left runway which is why I was cleared to land on the center. And it doesn’t mean I would land, just I’ve got to make the quick decision of what is the safer course of action.

In any case this would be a noteworthy event in any airframe due to landing on the incorrect runway and the FMC’s going blank. Both events will warrant an investigation into the “why” so as to understand what went wrong. Because this is a MAX it will generate a 4 page thread that will probably devolve into a pissing match between various fanboys about why the MAX sucks and the NEO would be the choice of the resurrected Jesus. In any event yes, there is what should have happened which is FMC or not, the pilots should’ve proceeded to the correct runway. Losing a major system such as the FMC is a distracting event. Couple that with doing a visual to an airport that neither pilot may have been really familiar with. Sometimes the visual cues just aren’t obvious even to pros with thousands of hours. The crew will be debriefed, retrained as needed, and sent back to work. The FMC issue will be investigated to try and determine the glitch and see if a software update needs to be forthcoming or a procedure tweaked.

As for the controller it simply sounds like they utilized their experience and judgement. They absolutely could’ve cancelled the landing clearance and sent the airplane around. However it sounds like when considering all the factors the controller didn’t see any danger in allowing the aircraft to proceed to land on the incorrect runway. Basically a late wave off from the controller might’ve led to a bigger issue than just letting the airplane land. Like I alluded to earlier, the controller felt that was the safer course of action given the conditions at the time.
 
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ADent
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:21 pm

From the ATC playback the pilot did get a pilot deviation report and a phone number to call.

https://youtu.be/01lAEbsnH_A


The pilot did say 28 center four times.
 
32andBelow
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:12 pm

2eng2efficient wrote:
IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
No defense, of course. But might this be a case of pulling up and going around was more hazardous than "allowing" them to land on a runway that was suitable anyway?


Agreed, if ATC had informed them of the misalignment, then perhaps they could have declared an emergency (on the basis of losing navigational equipment) and proceeded to land on 28L with permission. Then again, 2 mile final is not a lot of time for communicating and decision making.

Or they could do none of they and just say runway 28l cleared to land and go on with their day
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:55 pm

EssentialBusDC wrote:
WesternDC6B wrote:
One more thing: would this have even been a noteworthy event had the aircraft been anything but a MAX?



Landing on a wrong runway is noteworthy, regardless of aircraft type. Ask Delta about landing a 767 on the taxiway in ATL.

:checkmark: :checkmark: Wrong surface landings are a big deal, and has been an emphasis from the FAA in safety briefings for controllers for the past several years.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:02 am

kiowa wrote:
A third factor is ATC.

According to the inquiry, the controller had noticed the misalignment just before touchdown but decided that, given the aircraft’s height, allowing it to land was “more appropriate”. Traffic volume was light at the time. None of the 174 occupants was injured and the jet (N37513) was undamaged.

I'm not really sure what your point is here. Yes it's a wrong surface landing, but if the controller made the determination that allowing the landing to proceed on the wrong surface was safe (rather than issuing a clearance to go around), then ATC isn't really a factor here. It is still a runway, even if it wasn't the assigned runway. As long as the runway was in operation and without obstruction, then I see nothing wrong with the decision to allow the landing to continue.
 
D L X
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:23 am

PITingres wrote:
It would be interesting to hear the ATC tape. Was there ever an acknowledgement from either side that "hey, I'm / you're landing on the wrong runway, should I proceed / you may proceed anyway?"

https://youtu.be/01lAEbsnH_A

No, the ATC let them land, and then gave them a number to call.
 
SFOT
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:28 am

I retired from SFO tower in 2008, at that time we had ADE/AMASS that would issue an alarm if the aircraft was tagged for certain runway but lining up on the another runway. In this cause I would have made it legal and issued a landing clearance to the runway his is lined up for. Never had this happen to me but a tower controller does make plans based on the assigned runway, I couldn’t imagine a case where I would let a pilot do sometime wrong just because.
 
SFOT
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:29 am

Sorry, i should have said ASDE/AMASS
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:29 am

D L X wrote:
PITingres wrote:
It would be interesting to hear the ATC tape. Was there ever an acknowledgement from either side that "hey, I'm / you're landing on the wrong runway, should I proceed / you may proceed anyway?"

https://youtu.be/01lAEbsnH_A

No, the ATC let them land, and then gave them a number to call.

Yeah, there's not much chance of avoiding a Brasher after a wrong surface landing. For whatever reason the controller didn't want to reissue the clearance for 28L (the article said they were mowing, so maybe they'd released the runway to ops? I'm not a tower guy, so I don't know how that stuff works), but still found it preferable to sending him around. All the controller can do is issue a Brasher at that point...there's really no other choice. Controller fills out an ATSAP, the supe does an MOR, and the pilot does an ASAP. Unfortunately these things happen, but the goal is to find out why and learn from it so that it's less likely to happen again.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:55 am

ADent wrote:
From the ATC playback the pilot did get a pilot deviation report and a phone number to call.

https://youtu.be/01lAEbsnH_A


The pilot did say 28 center four times.


Here's the RNAV & ILS approaches to PIT:

https://flightaware.com/resources/airpo ... /RNAV+(RNP)+Z+RWY+28C/pdf

While this was a visual approach, I imagine that United's SOP could be to put an ILS or RNAV approach into the FMS as a backup. I'm wondering if in their initial approach the PM originally had the RNAV 32 in the box, then when approach control had them change to 28C the PM incorrectly entered the RNAV 28L approach in the box by mistake? I guess the FDR and CVR data downloaded will help explain this?
 
SPREE34
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:27 am

btfarrwm wrote:
... I didn't know a controller had authority to "allow" a wrong runway landing, and that seems questionable to me.


"seems questionable" to you? Refer to FAAH 7110.65, multiple sections/paragraphs.
 
Avgeek21
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:18 am

What could happen is that the FMS computer & all it’s components will be looked at. They’ll get details from the crew and try and replicate the error in a sim. Down to every key stroke that was made. Pending the outcome Boeing will maybe send a Boeing Bulletin out to operators if it warrants it something noteworthy until a fix can be implemented. The MAX has about 15 or so bulletins on various minor stuff. Same as NG. I’m sure Airbus works the same. Over time a fix or solution will be implemented and the bulletin revoked.
 
Flow2706
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:54 am

Not sure about the Boeing FMCS but on the Airbus FMGC resets are quite common. Most of the time it’s an automatic reset and the system recovers by itself after a few seconds. Sometimes a manual reset becomes necessary. Therefore I wouldn’t consider the FMC problem as a major issue. The wrong runway landing however is a major issue. I can understand how ATC decided not to order a go around if the runway is clear and the mistake is only noticed at low altitude.
 
USAirKid
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:01 am

kiowa wrote:

A third factor is ATC.

According to the inquiry, the controller had noticed the misalignment just before touchdown but decided that, given the aircraft’s height, allowing it to land was “more appropriate”. Traffic volume was light at the time. None of the 174 occupants was injured and the jet (N37513) was undamaged.


Speaking of human factors issues, that red text is difficult to read. I usually see people use bold around here for emphasis.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:47 am

Does the MAX use the same 1996 FMS Computer from the NG series, or did Boeing actually upgrade it?
 
Avatar2go
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:12 am

SEAorPWM wrote:
Does the MAX use the same 1996 FMS Computer from the NG series, or did Boeing actually upgrade it?


Hardware is the same, but has additional memory and software updates to include some new features. It's been continually upgraded throughout its life.

The Motorola CPU family for the 737 FMC is still in wide use within embedded processor systems, and still manufactured, after 40 years.

Consumers used to the continual upgrades of smartphone and personal devices, often see these older processors as archaic, but in fact they are more than adequate for their functions, and have the highly prized property of reliability and completely known behaviors, after billions of hours of aggregate use. Which makes them ideal for critical control functions, and enables them to obtain certification.

You couldn't take the lastest generation processor and slap it into a commercial aircraft as an upgrade. In fact there is very little reason to upgrade, once an embedded system is certified. Anything new can usually be done in software.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:00 am

Looking at the PIT layout…. If you are landing on 28C there is concrete to your left and right, but 28L has nothing to the left. If you are landing on a C runway, you are going to have concrete left and right… but if there is no concrete to your side, you are not on a C runway… thankfully this is a non event
 
Amiga500
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:15 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
One more thing: would this have even been a noteworthy event had the aircraft been anything but a MAX?


If you don't know why the failure occurred - and therefore the potential envelope of failure, then yep. Its newsworthy.

If there was, and just pulling something out of thin air here, some kind of hacked together pitch augmentation on the MAX, and a failure of the computer ended up locking a subsystem, lets say, airspeed monitoring... and the hacked together pitch system used the airspeed monitoring, then how could that play out?

But of course, the great and mighty Boeing wouldn't hack together systems affecting primary flight controls with single points of failure... would they?
 
KCaviator
Posts: 423
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:42 pm

Oh boy, this is embarrassing, especially for a MAINLINE crew. How about just looking outside and flying the plane, like pilots should. Simple fix to a simple situation. The very obvious issue here is too much heads down time trying to program the FMS. As a check airman, I always teach my students to FLY THE AIRPLANE when you can't get the automation to do what you want it to do. You're a pilot, right? Cool, fly the airplane.
 
ILS28ORD
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Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:56 pm

Agree with others saying its a piloting issue. Look up and fly the plane like you were taught in flight training. If it was IMC conditions and the FMS goes out, I could MAYBE see this happening, but the NAV radios with the ILS freqs aren't tied to the FMS as far as I know, so still, not too many excuses here other than the pilots screwed up.
 
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Aesma
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Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:02 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
Poor piloting in VFR conditions for sure. However, in the article it says the controller decided to "let them land". Did they receive clearance to land on 28L instead of 28C? I didn't know a controller had authority to "allow" a wrong runway landing, and that seems questionable to me. Assuming their flight instruments were displaying the proper info and the airport was under VFR conditions, there is really no defense the pilots can make for this type of mistake. I'm sure they will have a very uncomfortable meeting with their chief pilot and receive remedial training, but with no injuries or damage to the airplane I'm sure they will fly again.


I don't know the rules at play here, I'm surprised like you.

If the pilots had asked a last minute runway change, and the runway is clear, then OK, but here ?

And ATC isn't supposed to know or care if the aircraft can actually land on that runway (enough length ?) but conversely shouldn't presume it can, I would think.

What if the runway is long enough but has a staggered threshold compared to the other runway, and the pilots are on the wrong glidescope, touching down in the middle of the runway ?
 
ObadiahPlainman
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: United 737 Max computer examined after ‘blanking’ precedes wrong-runway landing

Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:04 pm

Nothing beats stick and rudder skills.

Nothing can ultimately replace basic airmanship. This is why pilots are compensated so well...earn it.

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