First post after years and years of being here.
Hope to learn something.

I’m very curious to know — within the entire corporate structure of AC, what is the point of their Rouge brand?
Is it meant to be holiday airline competition à la AirTransat? Is it meant to be low cost carrier competition à la WestJet? And if it is meant to be a holiday airline, LCC or so, how is it that AC doesn’t place much emphasis on brand seperation in the same way that for instance AF/KL does to HV or LH does to EW (or did to DE at one point)? (e.g. Rouge uses AC’s flight code). I noticed also Rouge operates some standard/business routes it would appear (e.g. YUL-YYZ).. it is somewhat reminiscent of AF’s Joon. Could it be a labour strategy to place employees on a lower wage contract or so?

Keen to read your opinions.

CR

Pre-pandemic, Rouge used otherwise retired mainline aircraft that were densified to provide competition in leisure markets where Air Canada historically struggled against Westjet and Air Transat. The 767s were particularly useful, as they rotated between Europe in the summer and sun destinations in the winter. You would typically never see both Rouge and AC operate the same route, although Rouge aircraft, especially the 767, were sometimes used to cover for mainline flight cancellations because of their 282-seat capacity.

Post-pandemic, the aim of Rouge doesn't seem as clear, especially given the retirement of the 767s. AC operated its widebodies on many leisure routes this winter, with routes like FLL, PUJ, CUN, and MBJ switching back to Rouge narrow bodies for the summer. It is unlikely that the cost advantage Rouge had still applies now that AC has dense and fuel efficient 737MAXs and A220s on property. My prediction is that you'll have Rouge flying reduced over time as the A319s age out without replacement. It wouldn't be surprising to see the A320s/321s join AC's fleet once most Rouge aircraft have been retired.

Thank you, Thomaas for that summary.

I'm am curious as to the labour strategy as well. Are the staff on separate contracts and rosters? Do they flow back and forth to/from "mainline" and if so what is the point of the labour scheme?

trueblew wrote:

Thank you, Thomaas for that summary.

I'm am curious as to the labour strategy as well. Are the staff on separate contracts and rosters? Do they flow back and forth to/from "mainline" and if so what is the point of the labour scheme?

I believe the flight attendants are (were?) separate completely from the AC mainline grouping, however recently I came across a posting from some "mainline" FAs who were working to re-start Rouge so that is less clear now.

The pilots for sure are part of the mainline pilot group and the Rouge flying is an equipment bid.

Congratulations on your first post. I hope this adds some information for your question. Although it does not answer what market AC is after with Rouge, I do notice, that in your examples the companies where either set up as LCC ( Westjet, Flair, etc) and the other two (Eurowings and HV) were separate airlines what were purchased by the larger. In Rouge's case, it is an "airline within an airline" model. This may point to more along the lines of rouge being an "Air Canada Lite" type environment. Interesting question as it looks at the model of the airline vs. the market it serves.

dmanonice wrote:

trueblew wrote:

Thank you, Thomaas for that summary.

I'm am curious as to the labour strategy as well. Are the staff on separate contracts and rosters? Do they flow back and forth to/from "mainline" and if so what is the point of the labour scheme?

I believe the flight attendants are (were?) separate completely from the AC mainline grouping, however recently I came across a posting from some "mainline" FAs who were working to re-start Rouge so that is less clear now.

The pilots for sure are part of the mainline pilot group and the Rouge flying is an equipment bid.

Interesting. It would seem the sole cost advantage over mainline Rouge offers is the densified cabins on their fleet?

trueblew wrote:

dmanonice wrote:

trueblew wrote:

Thank you, Thomaas for that summary.

I'm am curious as to the labour strategy as well. Are the staff on separate contracts and rosters? Do they flow back and forth to/from "mainline" and if so what is the point of the labour scheme?

I believe the flight attendants are (were?) separate completely from the AC mainline grouping, however recently I came across a posting from some "mainline" FAs who were working to re-start Rouge so that is less clear now.

The pilots for sure are part of the mainline pilot group and the Rouge flying is an equipment bid.

Interesting. It would seem the sole cost advantage over mainline Rouge offers is the densified cabins on their fleet?

The product/service offering is also different. Rouge does not have the in-seat entertainment system. There some minor differences in catering etc. The also do not have international business class products on the Rouge aircraft. Seating is more dense in economy. However there is interlining between AC mainline and Rouge. This is in sharp contract to WestJet and Swoop where they are separate ticketing.

I think post-pandemic AC has been struggling getting the correct aircraft on the correct route. This past year Rouge has been doing things that were never intendent due to lack of aircraft in the correct configuration. Over time I suspect those things will get sorted out.

Thomaas wrote:

Pre-pandemic, Rouge used otherwise retired mainline aircraft that were densified to provide competition in leisure markets where Air Canada historically struggled against Westjet and Air Transat. The 767s were particularly useful, as they rotated between Europe in the summer and sun destinations in the winter. You would typically never see both Rouge and AC operate the same route, although Rouge aircraft, especially the 767, were sometimes used to cover for mainline flight cancellations because of their 282-seat capacity.

Post-pandemic, the aim of Rouge doesn't seem as clear, especially given the retirement of the 767s. AC operated its widebodies on many leisure routes this winter, with routes like FLL, PUJ, CUN, and MBJ switching back to Rouge narrow bodies for the summer. It is unlikely that the cost advantage Rouge had still applies now that AC has dense and fuel efficient 737MAXs and A220s on property. My prediction is that you'll have Rouge flying reduced over time as the A319s age out without replacement. It wouldn't be surprising to see the A320s/321s join AC's fleet once most Rouge aircraft have been retired.

This is very good summary of the current situation. At the moment, AC is using Rouge as best they can, but often there is no rhyme or reason to this. We occasionally see Rouge and Mainline operating on the same domestic sector. Currently, YQM is served by Rouge to YYZ, but sometimes the route is operated by Air Canada Regional. As for "sun" destinations, CUN, for example, is served by both, as are other destinations according to the need (MIA sees both Rouge and Mainline). Before the pandemic, there was, it seems, more of a logical distinction between the brands.

Canadian commercial aviation is just like Canadian telecom. Lots of flanker brands to offer the illusion of competition. Rouge is Air Canada's Fido.

Rouge is looking more like the failed Tango at the moment, but I suspect it will go back to it's pre-pandemic place of covering most sun flying in competition with Transat/Sunwing/Westjet. The bigger question is if AC tries to re-establish a rouge long-haul fleet which really seemed to work pre-pandemic or if they'll go the mainline route on different equipment like the new 321s with longer range. Route allowed them to operate to a lot of secondary European markets and drew a lot of US feed it seemed. Retiring the 767s during the pandemic allowed them to quickly pivot when needed, but now they need to pivot again to position for the post-pandemic years. Perhaps they're waiting for a looming recession to pass..

I wouldn't shed a tear Rouge went away

INFINITI329 wrote:

I wouldn't shed a tear Rouge went away

And Swoop, and Flair, and Lynx, and Allegiant, and Spirit, etc etc etc. But as long as these companies continue to deliver what the customer wants, filling airplanes … they will exist.

CrewBunk wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

I wouldn't shed a tear Rouge went away

And Swoop, and Flair, and Lynx, and Allegiant, and Spirit, etc etc etc. But as long as these companies continue to deliver what the customer wants, filling airplanes … they will exist.

Air Canada could deliver what these customers want without a separate brand. Nothing stopping AC from flying all Y airplanes or ripping out IFE in Y.

First off.....welcome and excellent question.

In a few weeks I am flying an Air Canada Rouge A321, connecting to an Air Canada mainline A321. I am curious to see the difference in aircraft and service - if there is any.

TObound wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

I wouldn't shed a tear Rouge went away

And Swoop, and Flair, and Lynx, and Allegiant, and Spirit, etc etc etc. But as long as these companies continue to deliver what the customer wants, filling airplanes … they will exist.

Air Canada could deliver what these customers want without a separate brand. Nothing stopping AC from flying all Y airplanes or ripping out IFE in Y.

That is what they are doing but at the same time trying to shed some costs associated with that venture by having a separate brand, while also trying to preserve premium pricing/image on mainline.

TObound wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

I wouldn't shed a tear Rouge went away

And Swoop, and Flair, and Lynx, and Allegiant, and Spirit, etc etc etc. But as long as these companies continue to deliver what the customer wants, filling airplanes … they will exist.

Air Canada could deliver what these customers want without a separate brand. Nothing stopping AC from flying all Y airplanes or ripping out IFE in Y.

Except what about their cabin attendant wages?

casperCA wrote:

The product/service offering is also different. Rouge does not have the in-seat entertainment system. There some minor differences in catering etc. The also do not have international business class products on the Rouge aircraft. Seating is more dense in economy. However there is interlining between AC mainline and Rouge. This is in sharp contract to WestJet and Swoop where they are separate ticketing.

On a recent flight I flew AC Rouge from MCO-YUL. As I had Premium Economy for my YUL-LHR sector this gave me a business seat on Rouge. The seat was roomy and we were given iPads to watch films, etc, with good food as well. So I would suggest the Business class offering is on a par with mainline.
Shame about the ground portion at both MCO and YUL!

cirrusdragoon wrote:

TObound wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

And Swoop, and Flair, and Lynx, and Allegiant, and Spirit, etc etc etc. But as long as these companies continue to deliver what the customer wants, filling airplanes … they will exist.

Air Canada could deliver what these customers want without a separate brand. Nothing stopping AC from flying all Y airplanes or ripping out IFE in Y.

Except what about their cabin attendant wages?

Nothing stops them from paying flight attendants less, except the prevailing job market.

TObound wrote:

cirrusdragoon wrote:

TObound wrote:

Air Canada could deliver what these customers want without a separate brand. Nothing stopping AC from flying all Y airplanes or ripping out IFE in Y.

Except what about their cabin attendant wages?

Nothing stops them from paying flight attendants less, except the prevailing job market.

Their union collective agreement is in place , there is no way they would allow a regression in their wages for mainline.

Of course, Air Canada could have made a denser cabin and reduced IFE for a leisure operation. Both Air Canada and Canadian Airlines did that in the past. And yes, that would have reduced unit costs, (and did).

The intent of Rouge goes far deeper than that though.

I have my (somewhat informed) opinions why that is. But, it would be improper to cite those opinions on a public forum. However, look around us. We have a large group of well informed individuals here, with enough inside information, I’m sure you could figure it out.

I’ll give you a hint …. Look at the cost savings of Rouge over Air Canada, or Swoop over Westjet that went beyond wages. I’ll give you another hint …. the main reason the 767 Rouge operation was wound down was because Air Canada didn’t need it any more.

CrewBunk wrote:

Of course, Air Canada could have made a denser cabin and reduced IFE for a leisure operation. Both Air Canada and Canadian Airlines did that in the past. And yes, that would have reduced unit costs, (and did).

The intent of Rouge goes far deeper than that though.

I have my (somewhat informed) opinions why that is. But, it would be improper to cite those opinions on a public forum. However, look around us. We have a large group of well informed individuals here, with enough inside information, I’m sure you could figure it out.


I’ll give you a hint …. Look at the cost savings of Rouge over Air Canada, or Swoop over Westjet that went beyond wages. I’ll give you another hint …. the main reason the 767 Rouge operation was wound down was because Air Canada didn’t need it any more.

Genuinely curious, why was the 767 no longer needed at Rouge?

canyonblue17 wrote:

First off.....welcome and excellent question.

In a few weeks I am flying an Air Canada Rouge A321, connecting to an Air Canada mainline A321. I am curious to see the difference in aircraft and service - if there is any.

The Rouge A321 are newer but the seats are so uncomfortable with terrible leg room. The mainline A321 have dated interiors with legacy seat back IFE but have much more comfortable seats. From my experience the service in economy is much the same.

Rouge was always more of leisure based airline, they flew more seasonal flights or routes that are more holiday based such as YYJ-YYZ versus YVR-YYZ, etc.

Flown Rouge many times pre-pandemic, they had a decent product other than the lack of leg room. Upgrading to Rouge Plus was affordable compared to the mainline counterpart.

CrewBunk wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

I wouldn't shed a tear Rouge went away

And Swoop, and Flair, and Lynx, and Allegiant, and Spirit, etc etc etc. But as long as these companies continue to deliver what the customer wants, filling airplanes … they will exist.

I wouldn't...the reason we have $232 roundtrip AC YYZ-YVR fares is BECAUSE of competition from these airlines, particularly Flair.

Scoreboard wrote:

casperCA wrote:

The product/service offering is also different. Rouge does not have the in-seat entertainment system. There some minor differences in catering etc. The also do not have international business class products on the Rouge aircraft. Seating is more dense in economy. However there is interlining between AC mainline and Rouge. This is in sharp contract to WestJet and Swoop where they are separate ticketing.

On a recent flight I flew AC Rouge from MCO-YUL. As I had Premium Economy for my YUL-LHR sector this gave me a business seat on Rouge. The seat was roomy and we were given iPads to watch films, etc, with good food as well. So I would suggest the Business class offering is on a par with mainline.
Shame about the ground portion at both MCO and YUL!

Rouge Business class and Air Canada narrow-body business class are basically the same product. Similar seat, similar catering etc. Similar to premium economy on the widebody fleet.

What Rouge does not offer is the International Business class (what AC brands as "Signature class") where every seat is a little cubicle that opens up into a flat bed.

CrewBunk wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

I wouldn't shed a tear Rouge went away

And Swoop, and Flair, and Lynx, and Allegiant, and Spirit, etc etc etc. But as long as these companies continue to deliver what the customer wants, filling airplanes … they will exist.

Not sure why it needs to be pointed out, but despite the similarities in the hard product, Rouge was never in the same category as ULCCs when it came to prices.

Pre-COVID, it charged mainline prices, and quite clearly represented one of the worst - if not the worst - value-for-money propositions in the world at those prices. Not sure where it’s at now, but hearing non-Canadians who’d experienced it talk about it was cringe-level embarrassing (just find an Aussie on the west coast who made the mistake of flying Rouge, for example).

And to be fair, Lynx, F8 etc are all 30” pitch types, so objectively superior to the 29” being peddled on the Rouge narrow bodies.

Just to complement or augment what's already been discussed with a couple of anecdotal observations and experiences; the first I'd seen of Rouge was when it briefly replaced mainline AC on the YVR-SFO route, but maintained the same fares AC was charging originally despite a downgraded product whether in the seats in the front or the back. It wasn't very well-received (but neither was Rouge in general seemingly enough, with customers' mainline AC flights wary of being "Rouged"), and I want to say within a couple of seasons was back to mainline AC, with AC Express mixed in at a later time which would also operate routes such as YVR-SJC or YEG-SFO. I also remember Rouge serving YVR-LAX and possibly LAS as well if not from other airports in Canada, but don't have as many if any details as I do with SFO.

The long-haul routes with the 767s may be where some of the value/low-fare comments may be based on, though I suppose I don't have the "best" example; some years ago one of my friends planned to visit the US starting with an event in PIT, flying WAW-YYZ-PIT, with WAW-YYZ operated by Rouge and YYZ-PIT on AC Express, which would indicate the interlining within AC mentioned previously. SFO-YYZ-WAW was the planned return flight with mainline AC operating SFO-YYZ, and layovers in either direction were on the long side, but the $1000 USD fare it was sounds a lot more reasonable when the booking was only for a week in advance in the middle of summer, and the WAW-YYZ segment was in Premium, which was curiously cheaper than Y. Although it would turn out that the fare was only available to a US cardholder like myself, since on my friend's card/billing address it would quote a price in euros that would convert to almost $1300. Oh well. Maybe the fares still weren't teriffic, but perhaps part of that was the cost of interlining with mainline AC and AC Express which as noted one does not get with WS/WO.

mooseofspruce wrote:

Just to complement or augment what's already been discussed with a couple of anecdotal observations and experiences; the first I'd seen of Rouge was when it briefly replaced mainline AC on the YVR-SFO route, but maintained the same fares AC was charging originally despite a downgraded product whether in the seats in the front or the back. It wasn't very well-received (but neither was Rouge in general seemingly enough, with customers' mainline AC flights wary of being "Rouged"), and I want to say within a couple of seasons was back to mainline AC, with AC Express mixed in at a later time which would also operate routes such as YVR-SJC or YEG-SFO. I also remember Rouge serving YVR-LAX and possibly LAS as well if not from other airports in Canada, but don't have as many if any details as I do with SFO.

The long-haul routes with the 767s may be where some of the value/low-fare comments may be based on, though I suppose I don't have the "best" example; some years ago one of my friends planned to visit the US starting with an event in PIT, flying WAW-YYZ-PIT, with WAW-YYZ operated by Rouge and YYZ-PIT on AC Express, which would indicate the interlining within AC mentioned previously. SFO-YYZ-WAW was the planned return flight with mainline AC operating SFO-YYZ, and layovers in either direction were on the long side, but the $1000 USD fare it was sounds a lot more reasonable when the booking was only for a week in advance in the middle of summer, and the WAW-YYZ segment was in Premium, which was curiously cheaper than Y. Although it would turn out that the fare was only available to a US cardholder like myself, since on my friend's card/billing address it would quote a price in euros that would convert to almost $1300. Oh well. Maybe the fares still weren't teriffic, but perhaps part of that was the cost of interlining with mainline AC and AC Express which as noted one does not get with WS/WO.

I'm not sure Rouge was intended to lower fares as much as it was intended to provide point to point service on routes that don't have much in the way of premium traffic such as European secondary destinations in the summer, sun frequency, etc. The fares don't go down that much in economy, but selling more seats allows to make up for the cost of not having a true premium cabin. It was working quite well for a while. Of course a route like YVR-SFO marginally works on Rouge, but YYZ-ZAG wouldn't necessarily make sense without it. It also allowed significant frequency on routes like YYZ/YUL-RSW. Passengers like to complain, but it seemed to work really well for them until the pandemic means they had to pretty much go back to core operations and start to rebuild marginal routes again over the coming years.

yzfElite wrote:

mooseofspruce wrote:

Just to complement or augment what's already been discussed with a couple of anecdotal observations and experiences; the first I'd seen of Rouge was when it briefly replaced mainline AC on the YVR-SFO route, but maintained the same fares AC was charging originally despite a downgraded product whether in the seats in the front or the back. It wasn't very well-received (but neither was Rouge in general seemingly enough, with customers' mainline AC flights wary of being "Rouged"), and I want to say within a couple of seasons was back to mainline AC, with AC Express mixed in at a later time which would also operate routes such as YVR-SJC or YEG-SFO. I also remember Rouge serving YVR-LAX and possibly LAS as well if not from other airports in Canada, but don't have as many if any details as I do with SFO.

The long-haul routes with the 767s may be where some of the value/low-fare comments may be based on, though I suppose I don't have the "best" example; some years ago one of my friends planned to visit the US starting with an event in PIT, flying WAW-YYZ-PIT, with WAW-YYZ operated by Rouge and YYZ-PIT on AC Express, which would indicate the interlining within AC mentioned previously. SFO-YYZ-WAW was the planned return flight with mainline AC operating SFO-YYZ, and layovers in either direction were on the long side, but the $1000 USD fare it was sounds a lot more reasonable when the booking was only for a week in advance in the middle of summer, and the WAW-YYZ segment was in Premium, which was curiously cheaper than Y. Although it would turn out that the fare was only available to a US cardholder like myself, since on my friend's card/billing address it would quote a price in euros that would convert to almost $1300. Oh well. Maybe the fares still weren't teriffic, but perhaps part of that was the cost of interlining with mainline AC and AC Express which as noted one does not get with WS/WO.

I'm not sure Rouge was intended to lower fares as much as it was intended to provide point to point service on routes that don't have much in the way of premium traffic such as European secondary destinations in the summer, sun frequency, etc. The fares don't go down that much in economy, but selling more seats allows to make up for the cost of not having a true premium cabin. It was working quite well for a while. Of course a route like YVR-SFO marginally works on Rouge, but YYZ-ZAG wouldn't necessarily make sense without it. It also allowed significant frequency on routes like YYZ/YUL-RSW. Passengers like to complain, but it seemed to work really well for them until the pandemic means they had to pretty much go back to core operations and start to rebuild marginal routes again over the coming years.

It wasn’t, and the fares reflected it (which is why comparisons with NK etc work only up to a degree - yes, it was an NK type ULCC hard product, but at AC prices).

I wouldn’t read too much into the high uptake - that’s a function of demand and supply imbalances. ACr was filling its planes during the same period that WS was pretending to be a national FSC. That market appears to have evolved, partly due to the pandemic, partly due to the arrival of actual ULCCs.

Rouge will be re-deployed again to take on the ULCCs (and it would be eminently sensible), but whether it’ll be able to command the same price points (“success”) remains to be seen.

I think it’s going to be an important part of AC’s overall firepower - especially on leisure routes, but I somehow doubt it’ll be as profitable as it was pre-pandemic. The price will likely have to start reflecting the ULCC nature of the product in the next few years.