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727glasair
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737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:27 pm

My close friend is a Captain for Alaska Airlines. He told me exact details of an event 2 days ago. He was in command of Alaska flight # 145, flying PSP to SEA. 737-700 model.

Approaching SEA, in clear weather, 73 degrees F, the flaps would not deploy. He and his F.O. went through the checklist. They continued in and did a go-around on runway 34r. Then they circled once while checking everything, still no flaps. Procedures forced them to declare emergency and fire/rescue equipment was dispatched.

They landed smoothly on 34r, which is nearly 12,000' in length. He said touchdown was exactly 187 mph rather than the usual 138 mph. He used full reverse and a good amount of braking....no problems. He stated he was GLAD this was not Burbank, CA airport in the rain....
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:42 pm

You'd have to come in fast with no flaps. Flaps 0 is the setting that provides the lowest point of lift but allows for the highest speed. That's why you can do a comfortable landing at 130ish knots with flaps 20ish.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:42 pm

To be fair, if this was at Burbank when it happened, they most likely would have diverted to LAX for the longer runway.
 
D L X
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:47 pm

727glasair wrote:
He stated he was GLAD this was not Burbank, CA airport in the rain....

I presume if they had been destined for BUR, they would have diverted to LAX.
 
orlandocfi
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:49 pm

727glasair wrote:
My close friend is a Captain for Alaska Airlines. He told me exact details of an event 2 days ago. He was in command of Alaska flight # 145, flying PSP to SEA. 737-700 model.

Approaching SEA, in clear weather, 73 degrees F, the flaps would not deploy. He and his F.O. went through the checklist. They continued in and did a go-around on runway 34r. Then they circled once while checking everything, still no flaps. Procedures forced them to declare emergency and fire/rescue equipment was dispatched.

They landed smoothly on 34r, which is nearly 12,000' in length. He said touchdown was exactly 187 mph rather than the usual 138 mph. He used full reverse and a good amount of braking....no problems. He stated he was GLAD this was not Burbank, CA airport in the rain....


Not to diminish the event, but this happens on a fairly regular basis on all commercial aircraft. It is also a requirement to demonstrate proficiency with this maneuver for the type rating. I’ve personally had to land with no flaps, and I’d say the majority of pilots I know have as well. All in a days work!
 
AviationLuver
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:52 pm

727glasair wrote:
My close friend is a Captain for Alaska Airlines. He told me exact details of an event 2 days ago. He was in command of Alaska flight # 145, flying PSP to SEA. 737-700 model.

Approaching SEA, in clear weather, 73 degrees F, the flaps would not deploy. He and his F.O. went through the checklist. They continued in and did a go-around on runway 34r. Then they circled once while checking everything, still no flaps. Procedures forced them to declare emergency and fire/rescue equipment was dispatched.

They landed smoothly on 34r, which is nearly 12,000' in length. He said touchdown was exactly 187 mph rather than the usual 138 mph. He used full reverse and a good amount of braking....no problems. He stated he was GLAD this was not Burbank, CA airport in the rain....


Thanks for sharing. Fascinating for sure.

However, if destined for BUR or any other airport with a short runway, they would have diverted elsewhere.
 
727glasair
Topic Author
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Tue Jul 12, 2022 11:06 pm

Yes....I have heard that when BUR has a wet runway, the braking action is relatively poor..
 
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FlySail2015
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Tue Jul 12, 2022 11:10 pm

Yikes, does he know you posted this?? Crews are always strongly advised not to publicly post details about events like this until all the paperwork has been processed and reviewed, investigations/studies get taken place, etc. If you didn't already, you should remove this until you ask him if it's okay to share on a public forum like this. With the date and specific details of the event, you make it very easy for him to be personally identified and could cause issues for his career.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:44 am

How would the autobrakes be set for situations like this? Would it be set to max or would it be off because the pilots would rather us their own braking level as they feel is needed?
 
ASMVPGOLD
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:00 am

I had this happen on a SEA-NRT flight on a DL a330. We were on final and went around, then went into a hold for an hour over the ocean. Zero announcements made from the crew and flight attendants had no idea what was going on (I am sure the pilots were busy.) Never felt we were in danger, situation seemed to be under control. Eventually we released from the hold for another approach. zero flaps, very high speed (relative to a normal approach), Full emergency response waiting for us. Touched down, exited and taxied to the gate. Pilots never made an announcement. I was up front, so I asked them about it when they came out or the cockpit. I got a simple response of "issues with the flaps". Most people on the plane probably didn't notice anything different and just thought we went around and were holding to due to traffic (unless they saw the entire fire brigade following us.) Really wasn't a big deal, but I thought it was a pretty interesting experience.
 
ASMVPGOLD
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:03 am

FlySail2015 wrote:
Yikes, does he know you posted this?? Crews are always strongly advised not to publicly post details about events like this until all the paperwork has been processed and reviewed, investigations/studies get taken place, etc. If you didn't already, you should remove this until you ask him if it's okay to share on a public forum like this. With the date and specific details of the event, you make it very easy for him to be personally identified and could cause issues for his career.

I'm not sure I would even classify this as an "event". It was a landing that followed procedures. Sounds like they flew the plane by the book and everything went exactly how it should have. This sounds like a rather benign event that pilots train for.
 
ASMVPGOLD
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:06 am

 
orlandocfi
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:50 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
How would the autobrakes be set for situations like this? Would it be set to max or would it be off because the pilots would rather us their own braking level as they feel is needed?


Autobrakes are used “as required” depending on dry or contaminated runway and according to the non-normal landing data.
 
jetskipper
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:05 am

orlandocfi wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
How would the autobrakes be set for situations like this? Would it be set to max or would it be off because the pilots would rather us their own braking level as they feel is needed?


Autobrakes are used “as required” depending on dry or contaminated runway and according to the non-normal landing data.


The Non-Normal Landing Configuration Table in the 737 is assumed to be using Max Manual Braking, which is interpreted to me MAX autobrakes and transitioned to max manual braking, there is an allowance to select Autobrakes 3 and transition to max manual braking with an 800 foot penalty.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:51 am

While not ideal, flap lockouts happen on a regular basis. The airplane has protective features to stop the flaps from moving if something is wrong. Landing at flaps 0 is safer than landing with asymmetric or skewed flaps. The plane is designed to land fast at flaps 0, but a skew can cause asymmetric lift which is much more challenging for a pilot to handle since it induces roll that must be countered during approach. Depending in the skew or asymmetry, the induced roll may not be able to be trimmed out and thus require control wheel input during the approach, which can make a crosswind landing difficult.
 
Flow2706
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:22 am

These things are happening from time to time, systems are quite sensitive to avoid any asymmetric/uncommanded deployment which could be worse than landing with no flap. Happened to me a couple of years ago (on an A320) on a shortish runway (2300m) but we were very light. We run the numbers and it turned out we didn’t need to divert and we stopped with some runway to spare. If we were heavier we would have probably diverted.
I am not familiar with the system used on the 737, but do you know if both flaps and slats didn’t deploy? On the Airbus the protection systems for these systems are separated so if you have a problem with the flaps you would still have slats (that was the case during the event I described above).
 
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vhtje
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:35 am

Well done to your close friend. Did he say if he needed clean underwear after the landing?
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:51 pm

Witnessed a no flaps (LE slats only?) landing for the first time last week. Diverted from OGG to HNL. It was ultimately a non-event, these things happen. But I was struck by how noticeably fast it was on final. An inconvenience for the airline and passengers but interesting to see first-hand.
 
se210
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:04 pm

727glasair wrote:
...He said touchdown was exactly 187 mph rather than the usual 138 mph. He used full reverse and a good amount of braking....no problems

ASMVPGOLD wrote:

Yes, this was the flight. According to the ADS-B Exchange website, here is the approach speed for AS145 (N607AS B737-790) over SEA runway 34R on 7/10/22 at 22:11 PDT.
https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a7e151&lat=47.441&lon=-122.309&zoom=15.0&showTrace=2022-07-11&leg=2&trackLabels&timestamp=1657516299

After flight AS145, N607AS was taxied from the North Satellite Gate N11 to the AS Maintenance Hanger around 23:30 PDT on 7/10/22. N607AS taxied back to the SEA North Satellite Gate N10 late the next morning (7/11/22) around 11:45 PDT and left Gate N10 as AS810 SEA-SNA at 13:00 PDT.

N607AS B737-790 shown in MLS Soccer Portland Timbers paint scheme and since repainted to the regular AS paint scheme in January, 2021
 
kiowa
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:12 pm

D L X wrote:
727glasair wrote:
He stated he was GLAD this was not Burbank, CA airport in the rain....

I presume if they had been destined for BUR, they would have diverted to LAX.



They were in SEA, nowhere near BUR. ??
 
amcnd
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:33 pm

Not sure why any Captain would elect to land in BUR with a “flap fail” rather then divert to LAX or ONT…. Not sure what the max tire speed on the 737’s are. Most AC seem to be in the 185 range. (Ground speed). Doubt they would fail right at 185. But max break temp and blowing the fuse plugs would be the only worry.. 12,000 feet is plenty. The CRJ900 and E175 need about 7000 feet landing distance at max landing weight zero flaps
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:00 pm

amcnd wrote:
Not sure why any Captain would elect to land in BUR with a “flap fail” rather then divert to LAX or ONT…. Not sure what the max tire speed on the 737’s are. Most AC seem to be in the 185 range. (Ground speed). Doubt they would fail right at 185. But max break temp and blowing the fuse plugs would be the only worry.. 12,000 feet is plenty. The CRJ900 and E175 need about 7000 feet landing distance at max landing weight zero flaps


Tire capability margins are usually designed so the airplane can land at Maximum landing weight with zero flaps. There is additional margin over the guidance in the flight Ops documents
 
SBAer
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:58 pm

kiowa wrote:
D L X wrote:
727glasair wrote:
He stated he was GLAD this was not Burbank, CA airport in the rain....

I presume if they had been destined for BUR, they would have diverted to LAX.



They were in SEA, nowhere near BUR. ??


There was a comment in OP's post about Burbank
 
KCaviator
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:30 pm

727glasair wrote:
My close friend is a Captain for Alaska Airlines. He told me exact details of an event 2 days ago. He was in command of Alaska flight # 145, flying PSP to SEA. 737-700 model.

Approaching SEA, in clear weather, 73 degrees F, the flaps would not deploy. He and his F.O. went through the checklist. They continued in and did a go-around on runway 34r. Then they circled once while checking everything, still no flaps. Procedures forced them to declare emergency and fire/rescue equipment was dispatched.

They landed smoothly on 34r, which is nearly 12,000' in length. He said touchdown was exactly 187 mph rather than the usual 138 mph. He used full reverse and a good amount of braking....no problems. He stated he was GLAD this was not Burbank, CA airport in the rain....


I would hope your "Captain friend" wouldn't land in Burbank in the rain in that scenario, given all the other better options in the area...
 
hiflyeras
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:01 pm

Alaska Airlines pilots are the best! They’re trained to land on short runways in horrible conditions. If you can land a plane in Sitka, Alaska in the middle of a winter storm then you can land about anywhere!
 
Planetalk
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:20 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Not sure why any Captain would elect to land in BUR with a “flap fail” rather then divert to LAX or ONT…. Not sure what the max tire speed on the 737’s are. Most AC seem to be in the 185 range. (Ground speed). Doubt they would fail right at 185. But max break temp and blowing the fuse plugs would be the only worry.. 12,000 feet is plenty. The CRJ900 and E175 need about 7000 feet landing distance at max landing weight zero flaps


Tire capability margins are usually designed so the airplane can land at Maximum landing weight with zero flaps. There is additional margin over the guidance in the flight Ops documents


And worth remembering that at high altitude airports aircraft are routinely taking off at these kind of ground speeds, sometimes even higher. On a recent flight from MEX to MAD we lifted off at 213mph on an A350 per the moving map. 747s and 777s will be faster since the newer widebodies have considerably lower take-off speeds due to improved wings.

I've landed at Cusco (10,000 feet) at just over 200mph, and then there's La Paz....! The main thing the pilots have to deal with is the increased descent rate.
 
se210
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:18 pm

FYI, according to the FAA SDRS Website (Service Difficulty Reporting System), N607AS B737-790 MSN #29751 had a "stuck flap" incident last year on 5/16/2021:

FAA-SDRS wrote:
  • Unique Control #: ASAA2021051634835
  • Difficulty Date: 05/16/2021
  • Registration #: 607AS / Manufacturer: BOEING / Model: 737790 / Serial Number: 29751
  • Total Time (Hours): 66735 / Cycles: 33002
  • Part Name: FLAP SYSTEM
  • Part Condition: MALFUNCTIONED
  • Problem Description: TE FLAP PROBLEM - ON APPROACH TE FLAPS STUCK AT F25 - WOULD NOT RETRACT OR EXTEND LUT OF F25 POSITION NOTE: ON GROUND FLAPS EXTEND AND RETRACT ALL POSITIONS NORMALLY. GROUNDED - YES. EMERGENCY DECLARED FOR LANDING - PERFORMED T/E FLAPS SYS TEST CONFIRMED NO EXISTING FAULTS ON FSEU, PERFORMED T/E LOAD RELIEF SYS BITE TEST B737-700 MM 27-51-00, NO DEFECTS FOUND. PERFORMED T/E FLAP ASYMMETRY SKEW SYS BITE REF MM 27-51-00; NO DEFECTS NOTED. ALL SYS TESTS PASS, OPS TEST T/E FLAP SYS NORMAL.


Assuming the N607AS "no flaps" incident on 7/10/2022 will be reported/available in the FAA SDRS Website eventually.
 
floridaflyboy
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:42 pm

The CR2 was known for no-flaps situations. In 2 years as a flight attendant on it, I had over half a dozen no-flaps landings (about once a quarter). Our pilots were well-trained for it and it just felt like a very fast landing. The fact that they usually rolled the trucks as a precaution alarmed some customers, but other than that, it was really pretty routine. Thank goodness for quality training. I've also been a passenger on no-flaps landings on the A333, B764 and B744. All were executed beautifully. It is definitely not what a pilot hopes for when they set out in the morning, but they're more than well-trained for it.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Thu Jul 14, 2022 3:16 am

Broken wing issues do seem to be more type specific as time goes on. Good job to the crew for text book management of the emergency to an uneventful landing.
 
32andBelow
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:09 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
Broken wing issues do seem to be more type specific as time goes on. Good job to the crew for text book management of the emergency to an uneventful landing.

Username checks out
 
LAOCA
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:58 pm

727glasair wrote:
My close friend is a Captain for Alaska Airlines. He told me exact details of an event 2 days ago. He was in command of Alaska flight # 145, flying PSP to SEA. 737-700 model.

Approaching SEA, in clear weather, 73 degrees F, the flaps would not deploy. He and his F.O. went through the checklist. They continued in and did a go-around on runway 34r. Then they circled once while checking everything, still no flaps. Procedures forced them to declare emergency and fire/rescue equipment was dispatched.

They landed smoothly on 34r, which is nearly 12,000' in length. He said touchdown was exactly 187 mph rather than the usual 138 mph. He used full reverse and a good amount of braking....no problems. He stated he was GLAD this was not Burbank, CA airport in the rain....


It's really bad practice to publicly post what a close friend told you publicly like that. You have enough detail here to identify him too. You should delete, or at least redact most that post. If you do, I'll delete mine here with the quote in it.
 
Chemist
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:49 pm

Along the short runway question lines, are there cases where the destination airport has a short runway and there are no alternates with longer runways? I'm thinking something like United's island hopper in the Pacific. If you are heading to an island with a short runway and you have a stuck 0 flap situation, if all alternates have short runways as well, what do you do? Or do they specifically load lots of extra fuel for a very long diversion due to this? Or perhaps there aren't really any cases where this sort of "multiple short runways only" situation occurs in a geographic area?
 
iamlucky13
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:07 pm

Are there published takeoff / landing runway length requirements for this scenario, or is it factored into the margins for the normal runway length and overrun area requirements?

Looking at the airport planning manual, I only see requirements for with flaps, but I assume no flaps was considered in the safety assessments.
 
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zeke
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:53 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Are there published takeoff / landing runway length requirements for this scenario, or is it factored into the margins for the normal runway length and overrun area requirements?

Looking at the airport planning manual, I only see requirements for with flaps, but I assume no flaps was considered in the safety assessments.


Yes in the QRH, there is published procedures for this. For example a landing distance for a flaps up landing on 737-800 would be 4020 ft at 60,000 kg. This base number is then adjusted.

See http://www.737ng.co.uk/737-800%20Quick% ... df#page282
 
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FlySail2015
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:23 am

ASMVPGOLD wrote:
FlySail2015 wrote:
Yikes, does he know you posted this?? Crews are always strongly advised not to publicly post details about events like this until all the paperwork has been processed and reviewed, investigations/studies get taken place, etc. If you didn't already, you should remove this until you ask him if it's okay to share on a public forum like this. With the date and specific details of the event, you make it very easy for him to be personally identified and could cause issues for his career.

I'm not sure I would even classify this as an "event". It was a landing that followed procedures. Sounds like they flew the plane by the book and everything went exactly how it should have. This sounds like a rather benign event that pilots train for.


It is benign and it was handled correctly. But, as an airline pilot, I'm just sharing what we are generally taught regarding sharing on media after something "interesting" happens.
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1581
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:29 am

zeke wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
Are there published takeoff / landing runway length requirements for this scenario, or is it factored into the margins for the normal runway length and overrun area requirements?

Looking at the airport planning manual, I only see requirements for with flaps, but I assume no flaps was considered in the safety assessments.


Yes in the QRH, there is published procedures for this. For example a landing distance for a flaps up landing on 737-800 would be 4020 ft at 60,000 kg. This base number is then adjusted.

See http://www.737ng.co.uk/737-800%20Quick% ... df#page282


Thank you. Looks like about 40% longer distance than flaps 40 with maximum braking, but actually almost 20% shorter distance than flaps 40 with "Autobrake 3."

So I get the impression the runway length isn't a big deal if the runway is dry and you aren't landing heavy, but it can put a lot of extra wear on the brakes. On the other hand, looking at the reduced braking performance pages, the distances go up significantly.

Interesting to see that no flaps has less impact on landing distance than anti-skid inoperative with flaps 40.
 
filejw
Posts: 356
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Re: 737 NO FLAP landing @ SEA

Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:20 pm

I did at least two of these in my 38 years at DAL .Not a big deal...

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