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reidar76
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Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:41 am

Previously there have only been rumours, but now it's confirmed: Airbus is moving ahead with plans of reshaping the A350 cabin wall lining, so the walls are slimmed down, in order to provide additional interior width.

Flightglobal.com quotes Airbus chief commercial officer Christian Scherer: https://www.flightglobal.com/farnboroug ... 42.article (open in a incognito tab, if you don't have a subscription).

Going from 9 to 10 abreast seating will add about 30 seats. Seat width will probably be very similar to Boeing's standard seat width. Flightglobal.com reports "the new standard provides increased volume inside the cabin which allows the airframer to very comfortably put a 10-abreast layout in economy". This doesn't sound like it's for LCC only. LCC already fly the A350 at 10 abreast.

Initial aircraft featuring the new standard will be entering service shortly, says Christian Scherer to Flightglobal.com.

Airbus following Boeing's long haul densification of economy class? I remember when almost all 777 where at 9 abreast in Y.
 
Opus99
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:44 am

reidar76 wrote:
Previously there have only been rumours, but now it's confirmed: Airbus is moving ahead with plans of reshaping the A350 cabin wall lining, so the walls are slimmed down, in order to providing additional interior width.

Flightglobal.com quotes Airbus chief commercial officer Christian Scherer: https://www.flightglobal.com/farnboroug ... 42.article (open in a incognito tab, if you don't have a subscription).

Going from 9 to 10 abreast seating will add about 30 seats. Seat width will probably be very similar to Boeing's standard seat width. Flightglobal.com reports "the new standard provides increased volume inside the cabin which allows the airframer to very comfortably put a 10-abreast layout in economy".

Initial aircraft featuring the new standard will be entering service shortly, says Christian Scherer to Flightglobal.com.

Airbus following Boeing's long haul densification of economy class? I remember when almost all 777 where at 9 abreast in Y.

It won’t match 777. It will be tighter
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:23 am

This from the FG link above:

"Initial aircraft featuring the new standard will be entering service shortly."

I guess these will remain 9 abreast or we would have seen interior mock-ops. The change may not add to sales to airlines wanting to retain 9-abreast, but it may improve second hand values as it better justifies subsequent conversion to 10-abreast.
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:44 am

It will be more middle seats and less restrooms/pax and travel with centrally dimmed or blocked electronic window blinds. Hopefully the tickets will be cheaper?
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:53 am

Well, more comfortable 10ab is hardly a bad thing, but I do hope it's not enough to tempt the full-service carriers!
 
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reidar76
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:07 pm

From the Dubai airshow it was rumored that Etihad would be the first with 10 abreast, combined with this new wider cabin.

https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2021/11/a ... 3s-happen/
 
NZ321
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:10 pm

Isn't EK pushing for 10 abreast? I smell an enlarged order coming along...
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:16 pm

NZ321 wrote:
Isn't EK pushing for 10 abreast? I smell an enlarged order coming along...


This change should be ready in time for EK's first delivery, if they want it.
 
HTCone
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:22 pm

The seat width itself has never been an issue for me on 10ab 777s, it's the having to share tiny arm rests. This was inevitable I guess. Ho hum.
 
accentra
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:28 pm

There is discussion of this also going on in the Airbus Farn orders thread. An important point is that Scherer was very clear, in the FlightGlobal interview, that they wouldn't be reducing seat width to accommodate the tenth seat. How they're going to do that will be fascinating to see. It would seem there is possibly more afoot than just pushing out the internal walls. But let's see. Although you might wonder why this wasn't offered from the get-go, if they could accommodate ten abreast without reducing seat width?
 
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zeke
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:38 pm

Just want to point out the obvious, Air Caraibes' Airbus A350-1000 already has 10 ab. (3-4-3)
 
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enzo011
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:42 pm

Not great as you will be looking at 787 seats at best and that is not great in Y. But at least for our arguments on here it put the 777X and 787 in a tight spot as more seats mean more efficiency (I know, very simplistic view) so at least it makes for interesting arguments on here.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:56 pm

Will the new cabin also have the infamous dimmable windows, that flight attendants use to ensure passengers can't enjoy the scenery while enroute?
 
luv2cattlecall
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:07 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
Will the new cabin also have the infamous dimmable windows, that flight attendants use to ensure passengers can't enjoy the scenery while enroute?


I thought they already do?

viewtopic.php?t=1465043
 
jetwet1
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:13 pm

I had a couple of flights on BA's 351's last month, wandering back to economy I remember thinking how narrow the aisles were, anyone have a measurement ? And what they will be going to 10 across ?
 
airbazar
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:38 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
I had a couple of flights on BA's 351's last month, wandering back to economy I remember thinking how narrow the aisles were, anyone have a measurement ? And what they will be going to 10 across ?


The aisles shouldn't feel narrow on BA because they only have 17.5" wide seats and the A350 can easily handle 18" wide seats like SQ and DL do.
Air Caraibes needs 16.5 seats to fit 10 abreast. I doubt very much that the thinning of the walls will allow airlines like SQ and DL to squeeze another 18" seat. Most likely we're looking at the likes of LH, BA, etc, who already have narrow seats adopting 10 abreast, and possibly airlines with 18" seats like SQ and DL, going down to narrower seats. Although I fail to see the justification for the latter because a full aircraft seat retrofit is not cheap.
 
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Polot
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:01 pm

airbazar wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
I had a couple of flights on BA's 351's last month, wandering back to economy I remember thinking how narrow the aisles were, anyone have a measurement ? And what they will be going to 10 across ?


The aisles shouldn't feel narrow on BA because they only have 17.5" wide seats and the A350 can easily handle 18" wide seats like SQ and DL do.
Air Caraibes needs 16.5 seats to fit 10 abreast. I doubt very much that the thinning of the walls will allow airlines like SQ and DL to squeeze another 18" seat. Most likely we're looking at the likes of LH, BA, etc, who already have narrow seats adopting 10 abreast, and possibly airlines with 18" seats like SQ and DL, going down to narrower seats. Although I fail to see the justification for the latter because a full aircraft seat retrofit is not cheap.

Do BA’s A350 have wider armrests? Remember the A350 went with narrower than typical armrests (1.5” instead of 2”) to get the advertised 18” seat width.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:04 pm

airbazar wrote:
Air Caraibes needs 16.5 seats to fit 10 abreast.


This is only worth doing if it will allow 10 abreast at 17 inch width.

I don't think that would make it attractive to premium carriers. Perhaps if the plan is to enlarge premium economy cabins, with correspondingly smaller economy cabins at 10 abreast. Same number of Y seats, more Y+ seats.
 
S0Y
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:56 pm

Noshow wrote:
Hopefully the tickets will be cheaper?


My guess is any benefit will flow to higher airline profits
 
JonesNL
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:01 pm

S0Y wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Hopefully the tickets will be cheaper?


My guess is any benefit will flow to higher airline profits


Usually that is not what happens, as there is always competition that will try to undercut you if you have high margins…
 
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par13del
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:23 pm

Wow, just wow, previously we were told that Airbus designed their a/c to ensure that clients could not go 10 abreast........
Is this just for the 1000 or will this also be ported to new build 900's?
 
airbazar
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:39 pm

Polot wrote:
airbazar wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
I had a couple of flights on BA's 351's last month, wandering back to economy I remember thinking how narrow the aisles were, anyone have a measurement ? And what they will be going to 10 across ?


The aisles shouldn't feel narrow on BA because they only have 17.5" wide seats and the A350 can easily handle 18" wide seats like SQ and DL do.
Air Caraibes needs 16.5 seats to fit 10 abreast. I doubt very much that the thinning of the walls will allow airlines like SQ and DL to squeeze another 18" seat. Most likely we're looking at the likes of LH, BA, etc, who already have narrow seats adopting 10 abreast, and possibly airlines with 18" seats like SQ and DL, going down to narrower seats. Although I fail to see the justification for the latter because a full aircraft seat retrofit is not cheap.

Do BA’s A350 have wider armrests? Remember the A350 went with narrower than typical armrests (1.5” instead of 2”) to get the advertised 18” seat width.

No idea. I've only flown on LH and IB A359's and while IB is listed at 18", LH is listed at only 17" on seatguru. I did not notice a difference in the arm rest but the seat width is noticeable. But then again everything on LH is noticeable these days and not for the better :cry:
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:40 pm

par13del wrote:
Wow, just wow, previously we were told that Airbus designed their a/c to ensure that clients could not go 10 abreast........


Told by whom?

There are already operators with 10X A350s.
 
meh130
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:19 pm

The A350 today is 3" narrower than the DC-10, and 10 abreast DC-10 is a miserable experience. The A350 today is 10" narrower than a classic 777, and a 10 abreast classic 777 is barely tolerable.

The outer fuselage diameter of the A350 is 19'7", which matches the interior cabin width of the 777X. There is only so much space that can be carved out of the sidewall. Boeing got a grand total of 4" more cabin width in the 777X.

If Airbus is able to reduce the distance between the outside fuselage and interior cabin wall to 4", that gives them a cabin width of 18'11", which would be the same as the L-1011 (and still 4" narrower than the classic 777). This would provide 6 additional inches, or 1/2 inch added to each seat and each aisle compared with the current A350 10-abreast used by LCCs French Bee and Air Caraibes.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:23 pm

airbazar wrote:
The aisles shouldn't feel narrow on BA because they only have 17.5" wide seats and the A350 can easily handle 18" wide seats like SQ and DL do.


Delta has 17.4” seats. The 18” was a mistake on their website.

https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/airbus/a350

https://web.archive.org/web/20200312004328/https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/airbus/a350
 
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garpd
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:42 pm

10x on a 777 is horrible. I'll never fly AA in Economy again if I can help it.
I can't imagine how 10x on an A350 will be like considering its a good portion of a seat width narrower than the 777!
 
boeingbus
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:48 pm

They just announced the name of this new variant... A350XTS -Extra Tight Seats
 
RvA
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:00 pm

We will all be able to find out. Like with the 777s, this is just a matter of time before A350s already in service get the cabin reshuffle. For me a 10 abreast 777 still felt better than the 9 across 787-9 I flew a few times. If seatguru is right (if) then BAs 789 is already close to their A35K seat width. I could not imagine another row fitting in there and not being horrible.
 
DFW17L
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:07 pm

They’ll hand out pats of butter when you board.
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:16 pm

https://leehamnews.com/2015/09/04/bjorn ... g-dilemma/

Aircraft manufacturers should not be allowed to get away with communicating seat width in stead of “seating width”. Any aviation site, blog, forum or whatever should blast any manufacturer or airline who tries to get away with the narrow armrest trick. it should be not done.

Sure people want the cheapest possible seats, but at least it should be crystal clear what you are getting in terms of seating space.
 
inkjet7
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:01 pm

I'm sure there must have been demand for this version. Airlines choose plane interiors. Airlines buy or lease planes, not passengers...
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:14 pm

Taxi645 wrote:
https://leehamnews.com/2015/09/04/bjorns-corner-the-seating-dilemma/

Aircraft manufacturers should not be allowed to get away with communicating seat width in stead of “seating width”. Any aviation site, blog, forum or whatever should blast any manufacturer or airline who tries to get away with the narrow armrest trick. it should be not done.

Sure people want the cheapest possible seats, but at least it should be crystal clear what you are getting in terms of seating space.

Except that the flying public does not buy a ticket from the aircraft manufacturer, and that the seating configuration is up to each individual airlines. Look at the A330s: many airlines have gone 9ab, some (like DL) have stayed 8ab. Similarly, a lot of (most?) airlines have gone 10ab on the 777s, DL stayed at 9ab.
It is up to the flying public to pick the airline that offer the most comfort; that's much easier than picking which aircraft to fly on.
 
Opus99
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:21 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
I'm sure there must have been demand for this version. Airlines choose plane interiors. Airlines buy or lease planes, not passengers...

There is. It’s in service with LCCs
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:34 pm

More seats mean lower cost per seat. They attack the 777-9.
 
gonnagetbumpy
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:47 pm

I’ve sat in the 10abreast mock-ups. It’s as miserable as you’d think it would be. :(
 
visual8L
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:47 pm

meh130 wrote:
The A350 today is 3" narrower than the DC-10, and 10 abreast DC-10 is a miserable experience. The A350 today is 10" narrower than a classic 777, and a 10 abreast classic 777 is barely tolerable.

The outer fuselage diameter of the A350 is 19'7", which matches the interior cabin width of the 777X. There is only so much space that can be carved out of the sidewall. Boeing got a grand total of 4" more cabin width in the 777X.

If Airbus is able to reduce the distance between the outside fuselage and interior cabin wall to 4", that gives them a cabin width of 18'11", which would be the same as the L-1011 (and still 4" narrower than the classic 777). This would provide 6 additional inches, or 1/2 inch added to each seat and each aisle compared with the current A350 10-abreast used by LCCs French Bee and Air Caraibes.


Is that 3” difference between the A350 and DC-10
accurate? I thought the A350 was wider
 
inkjet7
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:58 pm

Opus99 wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
I'm sure there must have been demand for this version. Airlines choose plane interiors. Airlines buy or lease planes, not passengers...

There is. It’s in service with LCCs


Not the new version however. So more demand if the cabin is a bit wider.
 
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Polot
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:03 pm

visual8L wrote:
meh130 wrote:
The A350 today is 3" narrower than the DC-10, and 10 abreast DC-10 is a miserable experience. The A350 today is 10" narrower than a classic 777, and a 10 abreast classic 777 is barely tolerable.

The outer fuselage diameter of the A350 is 19'7", which matches the interior cabin width of the 777X. There is only so much space that can be carved out of the sidewall. Boeing got a grand total of 4" more cabin width in the 777X.

If Airbus is able to reduce the distance between the outside fuselage and interior cabin wall to 4", that gives them a cabin width of 18'11", which would be the same as the L-1011 (and still 4" narrower than the classic 777). This would provide 6 additional inches, or 1/2 inch added to each seat and each aisle compared with the current A350 10-abreast used by LCCs French Bee and Air Caraibes.


Is that 3” difference between the A350 and DC-10
accurate? I thought the A350 was wider

I think it’s actually 2” but yes the A350 is narrower than the DC-10.

The exterior width of the A350 is actually about the same as the L-1011.
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:08 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Taxi645 wrote:
https://leehamnews.com/2015/09/04/bjorns-corner-the-seating-dilemma/

Aircraft manufacturers should not be allowed to get away with communicating seat width in stead of “seating width”. Any aviation site, blog, forum or whatever should blast any manufacturer or airline who tries to get away with the narrow armrest trick. it should be not done.

Sure people want the cheapest possible seats, but at least it should be crystal clear what you are getting in terms of seating space.

Except that the flying public does not buy a ticket from the aircraft manufacturer, and that the seating configuration is up to each individual airlines. Look at the A330s: many airlines have gone 9ab, some (like DL) have stayed 8ab. Similarly, a lot of (most?) airlines have gone 10ab on the 777s, DL stayed at 9ab.
It is up to the flying public to pick the airline that offer the most comfort; that's much easier than picking which aircraft to fly on.


Hence why I said manyfacturer or airline. ;)

Advertising with seat width rather than seating with makes it close to impossible to judge seating comfort for the general flying public.
 
9Patch
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:19 pm

DFW17L wrote:
They’ll hand out pats of butter when you board.

Or lube...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:28 pm

The majority of customers only care about one thing - the price of their ticket. Even more so if you're talking about a family with a couple of kids. If their fares are £/€/$100 less per ticket, it will mean a lot more to them than an inch less seat width.

If you personally are not happy with 10X on an A350, then fly premium economy or a different airline. Most customers won't care less if the tickets are cheaper.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:30 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Look at the A330s: many airlines have gone 9ab, some (like DL) have stayed 8ab.


Which non-LCC airlines have 9X in economy on A330s?
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:05 pm

I wonder how this discussion would shape if Boeing tried to cram 11X on their 777X.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:12 pm

Like flying on a cattle car with wings.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:25 pm

scbriml wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Look at the A330s: many airlines have gone 9ab, some (like DL) have stayed 8ab.


Which non-LCC airlines have 9X in economy on A330s?

I don't know honestly.
But the discussion remains the same: some airlines went with 9ab on the A330 (vs 8ab for others), 10ab on the 777 (vs 9ab for others).

Similarly, some airlines will go 10ab on the A350 (and already have) while others will stay at 9ab.
It's their business model, Joe Schmoe is free to fly either business model.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
The majority of customers only care about one thing - the price of their ticket. Even more so if you're talking about a family with a couple of kids. If their fares are £/€/$100 less per ticket, it will mean a lot more to them than an inch less seat width.

If you personally are not happy with 10X on an A350, then fly premium economy or a different airline. Most customers won't care less if the tickets are cheaper.

There is usually a steep price increase to go from economy to premium economy; much more than the £/€/$100 you're mentioning.
 
fjhc
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:34 pm

Had my first 10-abrest 777 experience recently, flying to LHR-JFK on BA. I paid to upgrade to premium economy on the way home. Don't think I'd want to try an A350 at 10-abrest. The woman next to me was spilling into my seat- she was a larger lady, but it would have been much better on the old 9-abrest 777 config. I guess I'm just going to have to pony up for Y+.
 
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garpd
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:36 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Similarly, a lot of (most?) airlines have gone 10ab on the 777s, DL stayed at 9ab.


As have BA. Which is why I still fly them when I need to head over to Atlanta or Dallas. At least I did before the pandemic. Not sure what they're flying on those routes now that the A350 is in the fleet.

Found myself on an AA 777 in 2016, despite paying for the premium economy product, they put me right at the back in their 10 abreast economy. Never again!
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:38 pm

Remember all, 1 inch of seat width doesn’t matter if the ticket is cheap or the routing is more direct. This was quite often the message when Boeing’s narrower seats were implemented, so I’m hoping the message is consistent!
 
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garpd
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Re: Airbus reshapes A350 cabin to better accommodate 10 abreast

Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:46 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
Remember all, 1 inch of seat width doesn’t matter if the ticket is cheap or the routing is more direct. This was quite often the message when Boeing’s narrower seats were implemented, so I’m hoping the message is consistent!


For sure, to the mass unwashed SLF, they won't notice. They want value for money.

However, I will say I noticed a significant different in comfort between the BA777 with 9 abreast and the AA777 with 10 abreast I flew home.
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Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos