Hawaiian Airlines 787 Update?

SXDFC · Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:14 am

With the 787 deliveries likely to restart again, does anyone know the revised date for the Hawaiian 787 to be delivered? To my knowledge there’s only one that’s rolled out in full HA colors. Could they still cancel the 787 and revert back to the 330 if they wanted to?

XRadar98 · Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:47 am

I think they originally deferred their first delivery to Sept. 2022 with Covid as a reason. So it would seem everything is on track for them.

crownvic · Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:30 am

I say the deal is dead and they go back to Airbus for the A338N (the aircraft they initially wanted). I am sure with the delivery delays, HA maybe able to get out of the 789 deal. Just a guess on my part

JohanTally · Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:25 am

crownvic wrote:
I say the deal is dead and they go back to Airbus for the A338N (the aircraft they initially wanted). I am sure with the delivery delays, HA maybe able to get out of the 789 deal. Just a guess on my part

The aircraft HA ordered and wanted was the A350-800 as did US but Airbus cancelled the smallest variant while subsequently launching the A330NEO. HA has had quite the roller coaster of a time regarding their future long haul fleet.

TWA772LR · Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:49 am

Are the 787s going to be A330 replacements or will they complement them and we'll see new routes added?

sfojvjets · Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:06 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Are the 787s going to be A330 replacements or will they complement them and we'll see new routes added?

From what I've heard, it's a mix. When they were ordered, there were talks of London or other continental European destinations (maybe FRA, lots of Germans who visit Hawaii) happening. Obviously the 787 is a very flexible plane and while it would have the capability to fly these kinds of routes, in today's day and age of fuel costs, etc, 13+ hr leisure routes likely aren't the best option–but who knows, maybe they'll venture further west to try routes like HNL-SIN. Bottom line, my guess is that 787s take over the longer/more premium heavy/trunk routes across the US/Asia/Australia while the A330s are left to the less premium markets where they don't really need the big product or range upgrade. It's probably also important to mention that the 789 is a significant capacity increase over the 332, I think about 30ish seats in HA's configuration. Last I recall their 789 will seat ~289.

As an example, I find it hard to believe that airports like LAS/PDX/PHX/SMF which all see the 330 would get the 789. At the same time, SFO/LAX/JFK/BOS within the US and perhaps NRT/HND/KIX/ICN/SYD are likely 789 candidates since they are more premium, are trunk routes, or long enough for the 789's efficiency to significantly matter. Eventually though, with 330s aging, who knows what happens–given that there's no MoM, in a future without 330s, my guess is that we'll see HA split the current 330 markets between 321LR or XLR and 789 depending on the factors I already highlighted, as well as cargo.

I don't want to completely hijack this 787 thread but given that we are talking about the future of HA's fleet, along with the 787, I think this is where the A321XLR comes into play. Hawaiian could easily split its existing 330 routes between the 789 and the A321XLR–plus, the XLR could allow for significant expansion across the globe. Using 4100 nmi as a conservative estimate for range... here are some options for expansion and A330 replacement by A321XLR... leave the XLR for these lower-yield, lower-demand routes, throw the 789 at the sexier trunk destinations.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=hnl-ppt%2F ... U=nm&E=180

I wouldn't be surprised if many of these potential routes aren't feasible whether it's a range/configuration/demand issue (even when relying on the full scope/potential of HA's connecting network). Another option for HA is to get the LR instead of the XLR, which allows for a more typically conservative HA approach to expansion... MCO and AUS have been very unorthodox and AUS would probably perform better with a narrowbody.

frmrCapCadet · Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:11 pm

I suspect that a 'heavy' is always going to be able to max out takeoff/range weight with freight going to Hawaii, and if that state could develop flower and specialty agriculture products do the same flying back to the mainland. The 321 is not going to be freight hauler - by design - but when available it obviously could have a place.

MIflyer12 · Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:15 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
if that state could develop flower and specialty agriculture products...

OT, but it won't. Labor cost is far too high relative to Peru, Colombia, Chile, etc.

Anybody have details on actual HA A330 load weights from West Coast to Hawaii?

MO11 · Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:35 pm

SXDFC wrote:
With the 787 deliveries likely to restart again, does anyone know the revised date for the Hawaiian 787 to be delivered? To my knowledge there’s only one that’s rolled out in full HA colors. Could they still cancel the 787 and revert back to the 330 if they wanted to?

Hawaiian first quarter 10Q:

In October 2020, the Company entered into an amendment related to its Boeing 787-9 purchase agreement referenced above, which, amongst other things,
provides for a change in the Company's aircraft delivery schedule to between 2022 and 2026, with the first delivery scheduled in the third quarter of 2022.
In December 2021, the Company received notification from Boeing of further delivery delays of the first two aircraft from the scheduled delivery at the end of 2022.
At this time a firm delivery date has not been determined. The remainder of the Boeing 787-9 aircraft delivery schedule has not changed...

DKNEF · Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:25 pm

Could we ever see HA expand to Canada or even Mexico? Lots of Mexicans travel to Hawaii from MEX and GDL. A lot of Hawaiian locals love to visit GDL aswell.

hz747300 · Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:28 pm

I would love it if they started HNL-HKG.

Tack · Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:37 pm

hz747300 wrote:
I would love it if they started HNL-HKG.

HKG is an airline wasteland with their draconian COVID rules. I can't see HA wasting a jet there.

x1234 · Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:40 pm

The 2 routes I wish HA would start is HNL-GUM (give UA competiton) and HNL-SIN. Both GUM and SIN have US military prsence. Maybe also launch MEL, the 2nd most populous city in Australia.

USAirALB · Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:59 pm

hz747300 wrote:
I would love it if they started HNL-HKG.

x1234 wrote:
The 2 routes I wish HA would start is HNL-GUM (give UA competiton) and HNL-SIN. Both GUM and SIN have US military prsence. Maybe also launch MEL, the 2nd most populous city in Australia.

HNL is quite far from both HKG and SIN, at 5568 and 6711 miles, respectively. I am not sure if any carrier has ever tried HKG-HNL (I don't believe so) but SQ served HNL years ago and TR tried SIN-HNL via KIX. I doubt you would ever see HA in either city.

Travelers from HKG/SIN overwhelmingly prefer Thailand, Indonesia, the Philippines, Australia, and the Seychelles for their beach vacations, with HKG folk also frequenting Guam, which allows visa-free access to those from HKG unlike Hawaii and the Mainland USA.

I could see MEL at one point.

sfojvjets · Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:21 pm

DKNEF wrote:
Could we ever see HA expand to Canada or even Mexico? Lots of Mexicans travel to Hawaii from MEX and GDL. A lot of Hawaiian locals love to visit GDL aswell.

I looked at this on Great Circle mapper... my thoughts are that it's very very unlikely (at least with regards to Mexico, I'm sure Canada is much more feasible).

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=hnl-mex%0D ... =wls&DU=nm

HNL-MEX is around 8 hours in flying time (3299 nmi) which is significant. Additionally, with MEX being a "hot and high" airport, that definitely messes with aircraft performance.

So this would probably require at the very least the A321XLR, and most likely it calls for a widebody, not even demand-wise but performance-wise.

A similar airport pair is SFO-BOG (3291 nmi), with BOG also having major issues with elevation like MEX. I do not have statistics to back this up but it seems that SFO-BOG is a significantly larger market than HNL-MEX and it connects two Star Alliance partner hubs. Avianca almost started BOG-SFO on an A330 but the route never ended up launching. So I would say that HNL-MEX's chances are probably a lot worse... slim to none, even factoring in HA's connecting network. It would likely be a demand and aircraft performance issue.

With regards to Canada, the only reason I can think of why HA is not there yet is that they do not like to enter competitive, legacy-dominated markets (they do not fly to YVR/YYZ/ORD/DFW/IAH/DEN etc) and also because point of sale is likely 100% Canadian, all the Canadian carriers have a significant advantage. It's probably a market they do not feel is worth pursuing/investing in.

strfyr51 · Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:06 pm

crownvic wrote:
I say the deal is dead and they go back to Airbus for the A338N (the aircraft they initially wanted). I am sure with the delivery delays, HA maybe able to get out of the 789 deal. Just a guess on my part

Boeing came in and made HA a pretty good deal to get them to turn their heads away from Airbus. Airbus cancelled the airplane they agreed to build and opened the door for Boeing. So? Now? HA should just drop Boeing and go Airbus? Really?? Is the A330-800 going to be built in Alabama? No! It's Not going to BE Built at all!
but the 787 is going to be built in -800/-900 and now the 1000 So? Boeing will DO what they said they would Do.

JohanTally · Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:12 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
crownvic wrote:
I say the deal is dead and they go back to Airbus for the A338N (the aircraft they initially wanted). I am sure with the delivery delays, HA maybe able to get out of the 789 deal. Just a guess on my part

Boeing came in and made HA a pretty good deal to get them to turn their heads away from Airbus. Airbus cancelled the airplane they agreed to build and opened the door for Boeing. So? Now? HA should just drop Boeing and go Airbus? Really?? Is the A330-800 going to be built in Alabama? No! It's Not going to BE Built at all!
but the 787 is going to be built in -800/-900 and now the 1000 So? Boeing will DO what they said they would Do.

The A330-800 is certified and has delivered a handful of frames but it's not selling because the A339 is much more capable than the old A333. The A350-800 was the plane originally sold to HA and development was later cancelled.

strfyr51 · Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:25 pm

I can see the A330's flying HNL-LAS as many Hawaiians love Vegas as a playground. and they could fly them to other parts of the country as well as 1 more stop to Europe from the east coast. Many years ago Hawaiian had a HUB on the east coast so it's NOT like there aren't cities in the east that might welcome them back.
Hawaiian used to own Hangars in Macon GA. So I know they have the chops to do it again. I've seen their Airplanes at the Delta Hangars at ATL.

WayexTDI · Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:05 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
crownvic wrote:
I say the deal is dead and they go back to Airbus for the A338N (the aircraft they initially wanted). I am sure with the delivery delays, HA maybe able to get out of the 789 deal. Just a guess on my part

Boeing came in and made HA a pretty good deal to get them to turn their heads away from Airbus. Airbus cancelled the airplane they agreed to build and opened the door for Boeing. So? Now? HA should just drop Boeing and go Airbus? Really?? Is the A330-800 going to be built in Alabama? No! It's Not going to BE Built at all!
but the 787 is going to be built in -800/-900 and now the 1000 So? Boeing will DO what they said they would Do.

How many A330s are/were built in Alabama? And how many are still built and find their way into the US?
US-built A330s is not a requirement for HA, or for any other airlines for that matter; the only one that cared was the USAF for the KC-X and that went to Boeing.

ua2162 · Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:08 pm

sfojvjets wrote:
DKNEF wrote:
Could we ever see HA expand to Canada or even Mexico? Lots of Mexicans travel to Hawaii from MEX and GDL. A lot of Hawaiian locals love to visit GDL aswell.

With regards to Canada, the only reason I can think of why HA is not there yet is that they do not like to enter competitive, legacy-dominated markets (they do not fly to YVR/YYZ/ORD/DFW/IAH/DEN etc) and also because point of sale is likely 100% Canadian, all the Canadian carriers have a significant advantage. It's probably a market they do not feel is worth pursuing/investing in.

I know for a fact AQ served YVR for a very short time but I seem to remember HA flying there when the 763 came into the network in the early 2000’s. Or am I mistaken?

crownvic · Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:01 am

strfyr51 wrote:
I can see the A330's flying HNL-LAS as many Hawaiians love Vegas as a playground. and they could fly them to other parts of the country as well as 1 more stop to Europe from the east coast. Many years ago Hawaiian had a HUB on the east coast so it's NOT like there aren't cities in the east that might welcome them back.
Hawaiian used to own Hangars in Macon GA. So I know they have the chops to do it again. I've seen their Airplanes at the Delta Hangars at ATL.

Huh? East coast hub? Those were solely MAC charter contracts with the USAF. Cargo operated with L-188s and military charters operated with DC-8-62s. The only scheduled passenger flying HA did on the east coast was with Allegheny when DC-9-30s were leased to them in full HA colors and a small Allegheny sticker on the forward fuselage.

TWA772LR · Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:20 am

I'd like to see HNL-PER and IAH started. Perth is the main market for Houston to Australia for the energy sector but current aircraft can't fly that far. Plus the HNL stop over is almost the same length as IAH-PER. But my gut feeling is DFW ould be HAs next Texas market as they have an interline with AA and AA seems the weakest of the US3 in the Hawaiian market (I have no data to base that on though).

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=iah-per,+per-hnl-iah

Australia is pretty well open now and we've seen UA double down on down under. It would be cool to see HA start getting aggressive. For a while they were the only US airline flying to BNE before they cut it in favor of SYD.

And if things start getting as they really were precovid, London or Frankfurt seem like they could be worth a shot on a 3x weekly basis. Yeah I know Europeans have closer beaches than a long flight to HNL, but HNL vacationers aren't exactly the cheapskate crowd. Americans also have nice beach destinations nearby (hell Hawaii is a domestic market for us!) but still doesn't stop us from going to Thailand. The difference is it's the cheap Americans going there.

rbavfan · Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:31 am

strfyr51 wrote:
I can see the A330's flying HNL-LAS as many Hawaiians love Vegas as a playground. and they could fly them to other parts of the country as well as 1 more stop to Europe from the east coast. Many years ago Hawaiian had a HUB on the east coast so it's NOT like there aren't cities in the east that might welcome them back.
Hawaiian used to own Hangars in Macon GA. So I know they have the chops to do it again. I've seen their Airplanes at the Delta Hangars at ATL.

Please post proof on Hawaiian having an east coast hub. It's not on any historical pages the airline or others have run. Delta has done maintenance for Hawaii from day 1 for their A330's. So yes you may have seen the planes there.

ZK-NBT · Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:01 am

TWA772LR wrote:
I'd like to see HNL-PER and IAH started. Perth is the main market for Houston to Australia for the energy sector but current aircraft can't fly that far. Plus the HNL stop over is almost the same length as IAH-PER. But my gut feeling is DFW ould be HAs next Texas market as they have an interline with AA and AA seems the weakest of the US3 in the Hawaiian market (I have no data to base that on though).

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=iah-per,+per-hnl-iah

Australia is pretty well open now and we've seen UA double down on down under. It would be cool to see HA start getting aggressive. For a while they were the only US airline flying to BNE before they cut it in favor of SYD.

And if things start getting as they really were precovid, London or Frankfurt seem like they could be worth a shot on a 3x weekly basis. Yeah I know Europeans have closer beaches than a long flight to HNL, but HNL vacationers aren't exactly the cheapskate crowd. Americans also have nice beach destinations nearby (hell Hawaii is a domestic market for us!) but still doesn't stop us from going to Thailand. The difference is it's the cheap Americans going there.

Are you targeting PER-IAH via HNL? Seems quite far fetched. HNL-PER would be 14ish hrs, I am not convinced many from PER would go to HNL when DPS is 4hrs away.

DaCubbyBearBar · Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:06 am

x1234 wrote:
The 2 routes I wish HA would start is HNL-GUM (give UA competiton) and HNL-SIN. Both GUM and SIN have US military prsence. Maybe also launch MEL, the 2nd most populous city in Australia.

HNL-GUM… YES PLEASE!!
I would like to see HA do a 3X weekly HNL-STL and a 4X weekly ORD. Just my $0.02

sunking737 · Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:16 pm

Hawaiian A330 are in MSP for checks.

MO11 · Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:58 pm

rbavfan wrote:

Please post proof on Hawaiian having an east coast hub. It's not on any historical pages the airline or others have run.

Hawaiian Air Cargo had an air cargo operation using Electras in the late 1970s. Based in in Macon GA, it was eventually sold to Zantop. That was the extent of it.

See "From-1976-1979": https://newsroom.hawaiianairlines.com/blog/flyback-friday-u-s-cargo-certificate

TWA772LR · Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:53 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
I'd like to see HNL-PER and IAH started. Perth is the main market for Houston to Australia for the energy sector but current aircraft can't fly that far. Plus the HNL stop over is almost the same length as IAH-PER. But my gut feeling is DFW ould be HAs next Texas market as they have an interline with AA and AA seems the weakest of the US3 in the Hawaiian market (I have no data to base that on though).

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=iah-per,+per-hnl-iah

Australia is pretty well open now and we've seen UA double down on down under. It would be cool to see HA start getting aggressive. For a while they were the only US airline flying to BNE before they cut it in favor of SYD.

And if things start getting as they really were precovid, London or Frankfurt seem like they could be worth a shot on a 3x weekly basis. Yeah I know Europeans have closer beaches than a long flight to HNL, but HNL vacationers aren't exactly the cheapskate crowd. Americans also have nice beach destinations nearby (hell Hawaii is a domestic market for us!) but still doesn't stop us from going to Thailand. The difference is it's the cheap Americans going there.

Are you targeting PER-IAH via HNL? Seems quite far fetched. HNL-PER would be 14ish hrs, I am not convinced many from PER would go to HNL when DPS is 4hrs away.

Not necessarily for the beaches, but to connect to Houston for the energy market

DKNEF · Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:53 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
I can see the A330's flying HNL-LAS as many Hawaiians love Vegas as a playground. and they could fly them to other parts of the country as well as 1 more stop to Europe from the east coast. Many years ago Hawaiian had a HUB on the east coast so it's NOT like there aren't cities in the east that might welcome them back.
Hawaiian used to own Hangars in Macon GA. So I know they have the chops to do it again. I've seen their Airplanes at the Delta Hangars at ATL.

HA already flies into LAS 3 times daily with the A330 and 1 daily A321 to OGG. Its a beautiful view next the D50s when United operates from.

SFOtoORD · Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:03 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
I'd like to see HNL-PER and IAH started. Perth is the main market for Houston to Australia for the energy sector but current aircraft can't fly that far. Plus the HNL stop over is almost the same length as IAH-PER. But my gut feeling is DFW ould be HAs next Texas market as they have an interline with AA and AA seems the weakest of the US3 in the Hawaiian market (I have no data to base that on though).

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=iah-per,+per-hnl-iah

Australia is pretty well open now and we've seen UA double down on down under. It would be cool to see HA start getting aggressive. For a while they were the only US airline flying to BNE before they cut it in favor of SYD.

And if things start getting as they really were precovid, London or Frankfurt seem like they could be worth a shot on a 3x weekly basis. Yeah I know Europeans have closer beaches than a long flight to HNL, but HNL vacationers aren't exactly the cheapskate crowd. Americans also have nice beach destinations nearby (hell Hawaii is a domestic market for us!) but still doesn't stop us from going to Thailand. The difference is it's the cheap Americans going there.

Are you targeting PER-IAH via HNL? Seems quite far fetched. HNL-PER would be 14ish hrs, I am not convinced many from PER would go to HNL when DPS is 4hrs away.

Not necessarily for the beaches, but to connect to Houston for the energy market

Connecting in HNL for business travel isn’t desirable. HA isn't in a major alliance either. If United’s IAH-SYD comes back that would be the best option connecting to Virgin Aus.

FLALEFTY · Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:40 pm

Back to the matter at hand.

HA ordered 10 B789s in 2018, with an (unexercised) option for 10 more. The first one is N780HA which came off the assembly line at CHS a little over a year ago and is now painted up and ready for delivery once the FAA paperwork clears. It has been speculated that HA got an amazing deal from Boeing for these Dreamliners. The actual per-unit price for HA's B789s ended up just slightly above Boeing's production costs for the plane. Even if HA wanted to cancel the B789s and switch to A330NEOs, they would have to take a very costly hit in their CAPEX plans.

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/enlwgo

HA has a fleet of 24 fairly-young A332s that will gradually be replaced with B789s as some of the A332 leases start to expire. However, I seem to remember that when they announced the B789 order, HA was intending to use them to expand their Pacific Rim route network, while the A332s would continue to be used mostly on high-demand HNL/OGG to US mainland routes.

CBBW · Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:47 pm

I believe they selected the Adient Ascent for their 787 business class seat. I think they were actually the first airline to order it, though Qatar was the first to put it in to service.

SEAorPWM · Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:29 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
Back to the matter at hand.

HA ordered 10 B789s in 2018, with an (unexercised) option for 10 more. The first one is N780HA which came off the assembly line at CHS a little over a year ago and is now painted up and ready for delivery once the FAA paperwork clears. It has been speculated that HA got an amazing deal from Boeing for these Dreamliners. The actual per-unit price for HA's B789s ended up just slightly above Boeing's production costs for the plane. Even if HA wanted to cancel the B789s and switch to A330NEOs, they would have to take a very costly hit in their CAPEX plans.

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/enlwgo

HA has a fleet of 24 fairly-young A332s that will gradually be replaced with B789s as some of the A332 leases start to expire. However, I seem to remember that when they announced the B789 order, HA was intending to use them to expand their Pacific Rim route network, while the A332s would continue to be used mostly on high-demand HNL/OGG to US mainland routes.

That was before almost $4.00/gal. jet fuel. Those A330's must be expensive to operate with modern options available (XLR and 787).

c933103 · Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:53 pm

sfojvjets wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Are the 787s going to be A330 replacements or will they complement them and we'll see new routes added?

From what I've heard, it's a mix. When they were ordered, there were talks of London or other continental European destinations (maybe FRA, lots of Germans who visit Hawaii) happening. Obviously the 787 is a very flexible plane and while it would have the capability to fly these kinds of routes, in today's day and age of fuel costs, etc, 13+ hr leisure routes likely aren't the best option–but who knows, maybe they'll venture further west to try routes like HNL-SIN. Bottom line, my guess is that 787s take over the longer/more premium heavy/trunk routes across the US/Asia/Australia while the A330s are left to the less premium markets where they don't really need the big product or range upgrade. It's probably also important to mention that the 789 is a significant capacity increase over the 332, I think about 30ish seats in HA's configuration. Last I recall their 789 will seat ~289.

As an example, I find it hard to believe that airports like LAS/PDX/PHX/SMF which all see the 330 would get the 789. At the same time, SFO/LAX/JFK/BOS within the US and perhaps NRT/HND/KIX/ICN/SYD are likely 789 candidates since they are more premium, are trunk routes, or long enough for the 789's efficiency to significantly matter. Eventually though, with 330s aging, who knows what happens–given that there's no MoM, in a future without 330s, my guess is that we'll see HA split the current 330 markets between 321LR or XLR and 789 depending on the factors I already highlighted, as well as cargo.

I don't want to completely hijack this 787 thread but given that we are talking about the future of HA's fleet, along with the 787, I think this is where the A321XLR comes into play. Hawaiian could easily split its existing 330 routes between the 789 and the A321XLR–plus, the XLR could allow for significant expansion across the globe. Using 4100 nmi as a conservative estimate for range... here are some options for expansion and A330 replacement by A321XLR... leave the XLR for these lower-yield, lower-demand routes, throw the 789 at the sexier trunk destinations.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=hnl-ppt%2F ... U=nm&E=180

I wouldn't be surprised if many of these potential routes aren't feasible whether it's a range/configuration/demand issue (even when relying on the full scope/potential of HA's connecting network). Another option for HA is to get the LR instead of the XLR, which allows for a more typically conservative HA approach to expansion... MCO and AUS have been very unorthodox and AUS would probably perform better with a narrowbody.

HNL to Europe have to face the problem of Russia air space. Although going polar route shouldn't take too much more additional time for them.

jeffrey1970 · Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:55 pm

Once they start receiving their 787's would they consider expanding their service to other east coast cities, or coming back to Orlando?

sfojvjets · Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:04 pm

c933103 wrote:
HNL to Europe have to face the problem of Russia air space. Although going polar route shouldn't take too much more additional time for them.

From what I can tell Russian airspace should not be a problem.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=hnl-lhr%2Ffra&MS=wls&DU=mi

ahj2000 · Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:47 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
I'd like to see HNL-PER and IAH started. Perth is the main market for Houston to Australia for the energy sector but current aircraft can't fly that far. Plus the HNL stop over is almost the same length as IAH-PER. But my gut feeling is DFW ould be HAs next Texas market as they have an interline with AA and AA seems the weakest of the US3 in the Hawaiian market (I have no data to base that on though).

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=iah-per,+per-hnl-iah

Australia is pretty well open now and we've seen UA double down on down under. It would be cool to see HA start getting aggressive. For a while they were the only US airline flying to BNE before they cut it in favor of SYD.

And if things start getting as they really were precovid, London or Frankfurt seem like they could be worth a shot on a 3x weekly basis. Yeah I know Europeans have closer beaches than a long flight to HNL, but HNL vacationers aren't exactly the cheapskate crowd. Americans also have nice beach destinations nearby (hell Hawaii is a domestic market for us!) but still doesn't stop us from going to Thailand. The difference is it's the cheap Americans going there.

Are you targeting PER-IAH via HNL? Seems quite far fetched. HNL-PER would be 14ish hrs, I am not convinced many from PER would go to HNL when DPS is 4hrs away.

Not necessarily for the beaches, but to connect to Houston for the energy market

Doesn’t AirNZ do that?

YEGFlyer · Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:01 am

ua2162 wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
DKNEF wrote:
Could we ever see HA expand to Canada or even Mexico? Lots of Mexicans travel to Hawaii from MEX and GDL. A lot of Hawaiian locals love to visit GDL aswell.

With regards to Canada, the only reason I can think of why HA is not there yet is that they do not like to enter competitive, legacy-dominated markets (they do not fly to YVR/YYZ/ORD/DFW/IAH/DEN etc) and also because point of sale is likely 100% Canadian, all the Canadian carriers have a significant advantage. It's probably a market they do not feel is worth pursuing/investing in.

I know for a fact AQ served YVR for a very short time but I seem to remember HA flying there when the 763 came into the network in the early 2000’s. Or am I mistaken?

YVR could work for them quite well. I would also suggest YEG and YYC in Canada. YYC has a lot of capacity on the route from WS due to YYC being their hub, though, so that might be a tough market to enter.

890345809 · Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:40 am

I don't really see Hawaiian Airlines doing anything special with the 787 if it's delivered.

The airline only serves Japan and South Korea in Asia. Besides that, every other country market they served in Asia was dropped. Service to PEK, TPE, and MNL were all flown at one point but ended later on. Southeast Asia (except MNL on PR) is unserved. China Airlines served TPE-HNL before the pandemic, don't know if it's resumed or not.

No airline flies nonstop between Hawaii and Europe, and I doubt it will happen for Hawaiian Airlines. Too long and low yielding.

Why is a large part of HNL-Asia so unserved? China has no service now, EVA Air used to serve HNL a long time ago before leaving the market, HKG is unserved, and SIN isn't served either. I would assume the market from those countries to Hawaii isn't big at all I guess.

ZK-NBT · Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:38 am

ahj2000 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

Are you targeting PER-IAH via HNL? Seems quite far fetched. HNL-PER would be 14ish hrs, I am not convinced many from PER would go to HNL when DPS is 4hrs away.

Not necessarily for the beaches, but to connect to Houston for the energy market

Doesn’t AirNZ do that?

Air NZ do do that sort of, certainly a portion of their North America traffic is from Australia. PER given the longer sector time is more difficult to time year round to connect in both directions, demand is higher in NW where they did offer an additional 3 weekly service which connected PER-North America.

NTLDaz · Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:28 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

Are you targeting PER-IAH via HNL? Seems quite far fetched. HNL-PER would be 14ish hrs, I am not convinced many from PER would go to HNL when DPS is 4hrs away.

Not necessarily for the beaches, but to connect to Houston for the energy market

Connecting in HNL for business travel isn’t desirable. HA isn't in a major alliance either. If United’s IAH-SYD comes back that would be the best option connecting to Virgin Aus.

I certainly hope it comes back as I'm booked on it in November.

ZK-NBT · Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:31 am

NTLDaz wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Not necessarily for the beaches, but to connect to Houston for the energy market

Connecting in HNL for business travel isn’t desirable. HA isn't in a major alliance either. If United’s IAH-SYD comes back that would be the best option connecting to Virgin Aus.

I certainly hope it comes back as I'm booked on it in November.

What are you booked on? The morning PER-AKL? Or AKL-IAH? IAH is already back, haven’t noticed the second PER-AKL in the system.

NTLDaz · Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:50 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

Connecting in HNL for business travel isn’t desirable. HA isn't in a major alliance either. If United’s IAH-SYD comes back that would be the best option connecting to Virgin Aus.

I certainly hope it comes back as I'm booked on it in November.

What are you booked on? The morning PER-AKL? Or AKL-IAH? IAH is already back, haven’t noticed the second PER-AKL in the system.

IAH - SYD

ZK-NBT · Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:59 am

NTLDaz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:

I certainly hope it comes back as I'm booked on it in November.

What are you booked on? The morning PER-AKL? Or AKL-IAH? IAH is already back, haven’t noticed the second PER-AKL in the system.

IAH - SYD

Right. It’s meant to restart again end of October.

NTLDaz · Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:01 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

What are you booked on? The morning PER-AKL? Or AKL-IAH? IAH is already back, haven’t noticed the second PER-AKL in the system.

IAH - SYD

Right. It’s meant to restart again end of October.

Yep and given they are selling seats on it I reckon it's a solid chance of returning. Got to be honest and say I'm not looking forward to the flight but used Velocity points for it.

sxf24 · Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:19 am

3D101CA wrote:
I don't really see Hawaiian Airlines doing anything special with the 787 if it's delivered.

The airline only serves Japan and South Korea in Asia. Besides that, every other country market they served in Asia was dropped. Service to PEK, TPE, and MNL were all flown at one point but ended later on. Southeast Asia (except MNL on PR) is unserved. China Airlines served TPE-HNL before the pandemic, don't know if it's resumed or not.

No airline flies nonstop between Hawaii and Europe, and I doubt it will happen for Hawaiian Airlines. Too long and low yielding.

Why is a large part of HNL-Asia so unserved? China has no service now, EVA Air used to serve HNL a long time ago before leaving the market, HKG is unserved, and SIN isn't served either. I would assume the market from those countries to Hawaii isn't big at all I guess.

HA serves SYD, BNE and AKL. Those flights, plus JFK and BOS would benefit from 787 as the A330 can be payload limited. JFK also has strong premium demand.

superbizzy73 · Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:32 am

I wish I could remember where I read it, but I recall an interview with Ingram where he stated that HA wanted the 787 not for it range (at least initially), but for its efficiency. It seems like all the 330 routes could conceivably be 787 routes. I'll do some digging and see if I can find the article. Just for my own sake, I sure hope they do the SEA-HNL run with the 787!

superbizzy73 · Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:42 am

Found it. It was actually Brent Overbeek, the Senior Vice President of Revenue Management and Network Planning for HA. Scroll down to the heading "Range was not a deciding factor".

https://simpleflying.com/hawaiian-airli ... nt-overbe/

DocLightning · Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:44 am

sfojvjets" It's probably also important to mention that the 789 is a significant capacity increase over the 332, I think about 30ish seats in HA's configuration. Last I recall their 789 will seat ~289.[/quote]

I confess I hadn't been keeping up, but wasn't HA interested in the 788 for exactly this reason? That's why they dropped the A330-NEO when Airbus canceled the A338 and before that the A350 when Airbus canceled the A358.

It is unfortunate that they fully canceled the A330 deal with Airbus. Perhaps they could have twisted Airbus's arm and gotten them to sell them A339s for the price they negotiated for the A338. But spilled milk...

[quote="3D101CA wrote:
No airline flies nonstop between Hawaii and Europe, and I doubt it will happen for Hawaiian Airlines. Too long and low yielding.

Indeed, but one wonders if they might use ANC as a stopover for this. It's almost directly on the GC path. They could use SFO or SEA instead, but those add almost an hour in the air for Europe vs. ANC.

foxalphazulu · Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:47 am

HA to YVR got me laughing. Won’t happen.

AC and WS both operate narrowbodies. This is with (presumed) feed from other cities. YVR by itself is low yielding and price conscious so no I don’t think YEG would happen.

Now YYC, there’s a fair chance. This is a premium market and they could make OGG-YYC work. But again, a lack of partnership with mileage program will make people think. YYC could work for HA if they really wanted Canada. And if they did they would need a wide body.

I don’t think Canada is part of their plans. Like someone else said on here, I don’t think they will do anything interesting with these planes.

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