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LAXintl
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Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:47 pm

Senator Lindsey Graham (SC) and Representatives Chip Roy (TX) today introduced the “Let Experienced Pilots Fly Act,” meant to help alleviate the pilot shortage by raising the mandatory commercial pilot retirement age.

The Let Experienced Pilots Fly Act raises the mandatory retirement age for commercial airline pilots from 65 to 67. Outside of raising the retirement age by two years, the bill does not make any major changes to the current law governing pilot retirements.

The bill's House cosponsors include Reps Clay Higgins (LA), Dusty Johnson (SD), Mary Miller (IL), Adrian Smith (NE), and Lauren Boebert (CO).

Copy of bill
https://roy.house.gov/sites/evo-subsite ... _FINAL.pdf

=

Let see how this goes.
ALPA and other unions have publicly stated they would oppose such efforts, while DOT Secretary Buttigieg opinioned such a move was unlikely to help much.
Last edited by LAXintl on Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
777luver
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:55 pm

Why not fly until you’re 75? *sarcasm* the real question is, do pilots really want to fly until they are 67? It’s only 2 years from 65 but even 65 seems to be pushing it. Having said that I’m sure there are pilots who would be more than willing to continue flying, and don’t want to stop.
 
Babyshark
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:01 pm

Supposedly the FAA wants cognitive and stress testing now for everyone over 60 if the age goes to 67… so you’ll lose more pilots then you keep.

Just being honest


Also training departments would also agree that the older pilots are problematic. Training a motivated 27 year old versus a not motivated 64 year old is incredibly different.

They also go out on sick leave more.

So you’re not gaining much and both alpa and airlines know that

If age 67 happened I would do it. But I’d drop half my trips. And not be very productive at all but I would retain the ability to go get some cash if I wanted to. Which I won’t want to do that. But I’ll reserve the right. Id also refuse to go to initial qual on anything over the age of 60.
 
Max Q
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:12 pm

Don’t see a problem


If you can pass a medical and all the required training/ checkrides etc 67 is not a big deal, pilot retirement age is already 68 in Japan and Australia has no age limit for their commercial pilots who fly domestically



And if you’re going to stipulate cognitive testing you’d have to include it for all, regardless of age !
 
johns624
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:17 pm

If they really want to get rid of the "pilot shortage", they lower the stupid 1500hr rule. Politicians think that everyone has an easy job like theirs and wants to work forever.
 
United1
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:27 pm

Babyshark wrote:
Supposedly the FAA wants cognitive and stress testing now for everyone over 60 if the age goes to 67… so you’ll lose more pilots then you keep.

Just being honest


Also training departments would also agree that the older pilots are problematic. Training a motivated 27 year old versus a not motivated 64 year old is incredibly different.

They also go out on sick leave more.

So you’re not gaining much and both alpa and airlines know that

If age 67 happened I would do it. But I’d drop half my trips. And not be very productive at all but I would retain the ability to go get some cash if I wanted to. Which I won’t want to do that. But I’ll reserve the right. Id also refuse to go to initial qual on anything over the age of 60.


I'm generally in favor of dropping age caps in exchange for an enhanced medical clearances and ability testing. Not just in aviation but in general because while statistically you are prone to more medical issues as you age it's important to remember that "mileage" can be far more of a contributing factor to your overall health.

I know a number of folks in their 60/70s who are in a heck of a lot better shape (physically/mentally) than some 40 year olds are. I also know a number of 20 somethings who I would never attach the term "motivated" to. It's important to look at the entirety of an individual when deciding if they are capable of doing something...not just their age.

Can't tell you one way or the other on whether dropping the age cap would increase the number of qualified pilots but I do think it's worth a look.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:28 pm

Wait, this is mandatory retirement age right? I don't think that some people are going to want to fly until age 67 unless they're REALLY passionate. And even then, the not great job security already induces stress and you have to be on your toes essentially, so is this really a good thing? All the stresses of the profession are extended to an older age? I think the best way of overcoming the shortage is getting the next generation interested in aviation but I don't know.
 
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Boiler905
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:33 pm

johns624 wrote:
If they really want to get rid of the "pilot shortage", they lower the stupid 1500hr rule. Politicians think that everyone has an easy job like theirs and wants to work forever.


Completely agree with the first sentence.

Leave it to politicians to try to fix a problem that merely just kicks the can down the road further instead of fixing the root of the issue.

I'm not saying raising the retirement age is bad, but it's not the solution.

Not impressed.
 
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UPlog
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:38 pm

As a pilot, I don't see the issue of allowing folks the opportunity to continue flying for additional years so long as they maintain their medicals.

Ton of professionals work past 65, and even the full retirement age for Social Security is now 67 as well, and likely to rise further in the future.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:40 pm

It’s not, for the 100th time, a “1500 hour rule”; it’s an Airline Transport Pilot certificate rule. If you’re a Pilot flying Airline Transport, having an ATP would seem to be a baseline requirement.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:41 pm

Why not 70 if the pilot meets all the medical and training requirements. Maybe reduce the allowed hours to fly each month to 75%.

A new apprentice pilot category is needed, starting out co-pilots can be the 1st officer on 19 seat flights starting at 250 hours provided the pilot has 2,000 or more hours. First officer apprentice OK with 750 hours provided the pilot is instructor rated for larger airplanes up until the 1,500 hour point. Should be a specific training program including simulator time for all aspects. How much does a 1st officer learn when the plane is on autopilot for hours.

A nice bill to slip in the certification change from "certified by 12-31-22" to "applied for certification by 8-1-22" to fix their issue created by the previous bill about the Max.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:45 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s not, for the 100th time, a “1500 hour rule”; it’s an Airline Transport Pilot certificate rule. If you’re a Pilot flying Airline Transport, having an ATP would seem to be a baseline requirement.

But you would need to have 1500 hours in order to get your ATP, would you not.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:51 pm

No, you would not, it depends on your training. See FAA Part 61 Section 160. Even so, where else would we accept 9 months work experience where hundreds of lives are at stake. Even 1500 hours is slim work experience.
 
johns624
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:00 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, you would not, it depends on your training. See FAA Part 61 Section 160. Even so, where else would we accept 9 months work experience where hundreds of lives are at stake. Even 1500 hours is slim work experience.
How many hours did you have when you first started flying transports in the military?
 
aviatorcraig
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:04 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Why not 70 if the pilot meets all the medical and training requirements.


Sounds like a good age to retire. Then you could have a few years off work before running for president! :lol:
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:28 pm

johns624 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, you would not, it depends on your training. See FAA Part 61 Section 160. Even so, where else would we accept 9 months work experience where hundreds of lives are at stake. Even 1500 hours is slim work experience.
How many hours did you have when you first started flying transports in the military?


Total? About 7,000 including about 2,000 hours as an airline flight engineer. Prior to that I had UPT, 1200 hours of fighter time as military time only. C-5 at the time was a “second weapon system” assignment.
Besides, the military is an entirely different environment than any civilian time. 250 hours of 172 isn’t prep for 121 flying.
 
hivue
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:45 pm

LAXintl wrote:
while DOT Secretary Buttigieg opinioned such a move was unlikely to help much.


And how much might it cost the airlines? A few weeks ago on CNBC Scott Kirby, when asked about raising pilot retirement age to help with the shortage, said that at United on any given day 36% of age 64 pilots are out with a short or long term medical issue. The problem is that a class 1 medical is a pretty rigorous challenge for folks past age 60 or so.
 
johns624
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:53 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
johns624 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, you would not, it depends on your training. See FAA Part 61 Section 160. Even so, where else would we accept 9 months work experience where hundreds of lives are at stake. Even 1500 hours is slim work experience.
How many hours did you have when you first started flying transports in the military?


Total? About 7,000 including about 2,000 hours as an airline flight engineer. Prior to that I had UPT, 1200 hours of fighter time as military time only. C-5 at the time was a “second weapon system” assignment.
Besides, the military is an entirely different environment than any civilian time. 250 hours of 172 isn’t prep for 121 flying.
Who said anything about 250 hours? There's a big gap between 250 and 1500.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:58 am

The comparison is going back to the heyday of wet commercial pilots getting hired at regionals with the minimum of 250 hours. Yes, a big gap filled by the restricted ATP in Part 61. And, yes, the majors hired lots of low-time pilots in the 60s, usually not very good, I flew with many of them.
 
DualQual
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:02 am

johns624 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, you would not, it depends on your training. See FAA Part 61 Section 160. Even so, where else would we accept 9 months work experience where hundreds of lives are at stake. Even 1500 hours is slim work experience.
How many hours did you have when you first started flying transports in the military?


How much was the ticket cost each troop paid?
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:10 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, you would not, it depends on your training. See FAA Part 61 Section 160. Even so, where else would we accept 9 months work experience where hundreds of lives are at stake. Even 1500 hours is slim work experience.


We will be seeing the 1500 hour rule double pilot compensation from where it would have otherwise been, and where it was, in a fairly similar world 10 or 12 years ago.

Of course, this is a sensitive point, so people don’t like hearing about it. But I can remember when the same people were quite focused on RJ FO wages, and how it was such a problem that too many people were being hired and trained, at too low a wage. Something had to be done.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:11 am

I guess the question is, what /can't/ a medical catch as far as fitness at such a senior age?



I'll tell you a serious danger: flying becoming too expensive or their flight gets cancelled that people choose to drive to their destination.
Last edited by CarlosSi on Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s not, for the 100th time, a “1500 hour rule”; it’s an Airline Transport Pilot certificate rule. If you’re a Pilot flying Airline Transport, having an ATP would seem to be a baseline requirement.


How is it that American airlines can't take fresh pilots and train them to get an ATP, like many other overseas airlines?
 
orlandocfi
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:50 am

hivue wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
while DOT Secretary Buttigieg opinioned such a move was unlikely to help much.


And how much might it cost the airlines? A few weeks ago on CNBC Scott Kirby, when asked about raising pilot retirement age to help with the shortage, said that at United on any given day 36% of age 64 pilots are out with a short or long term medical issue. The problem is that a class 1 medical is a pretty rigorous challenge for folks past age 60 or so.


I think this is a key reason why there isn’t much support from airline leadership, among others. If they aren’t already on STD or LTD, two years is just enough time to call off sick for one trip per month and burn through that sick time. So there may be a short-term net boost in staffing, but it will cost companies a pretty penny to kick that staffing can just a tad further down the road.
 
Selfmade92
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:58 am

AirKevin wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s not, for the 100th time, a “1500 hour rule”; it’s an Airline Transport Pilot certificate rule. If you’re a Pilot flying Airline Transport, having an ATP would seem to be a baseline requirement.

But you would need to have 1500 hours in order to get your ATP, would you not.


No. 750h for Military pilots. 1000h for Bachelors 141, 1250 for Associates 141.

Also requires other certain milestones like PIC, X-Country Time etc.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:25 am

Babyshark wrote:
Supposedly the FAA wants cognitive and stress testing now for everyone over 60 if the age goes to 67… so you’ll lose more pilots then you keep.

Just being honest


Also training departments would also agree that the older pilots are problematic. Training a motivated 27 year old versus a not motivated 64 year old is incredibly different.

They also go out on sick leave more.

So you’re not gaining much and both alpa and airlines know that

If age 67 happened I would do it. But I’d drop half my trips. And not be very productive at all but I would retain the ability to go get some cash if I wanted to. Which I won’t want to do that. But I’ll reserve the right. Id also refuse to go to initial qual on anything over the age of 60.

That sounds like a fair summary. Stress testing won't be fun.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:58 am

777luver wrote:
Why not fly until you’re 75? *sarcasm* the real question is, do pilots really want to fly until they are 67? It’s only 2 years from 65 but even 65 seems to be pushing it. Having said that I’m sure there are pilots who would be more than willing to continue flying, and don’t want to stop.

the Social Security age about now is 67 soot as a It would not be out of the ordinary for the retirement age to increase to 67. Going past 70? I would think NOT as an a Passenger airline Captain. Though as a freighter Captain? I could see that with Semi annual Medical exams and a semi annual sim Procedure check.
 
airlinepeanuts
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:06 am

The guys that almost crashed AA300 had tens of thousands of flight hours. Does it really matter?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:40 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s not, for the 100th time, a “1500 hour rule”; it’s an Airline Transport Pilot certificate rule. If you’re a Pilot flying Airline Transport, having an ATP would seem to be a baseline requirement.


How is it that American airlines can't take fresh pilots and train them to get an ATP, like many other overseas airlines?


The US has traditionally had both a large general aviation and military pool of pilots to recruit from, usually highly trained and experienced. This idea of shortage is very recent. For generations, the US “problem” has been a supply of pilots larger than the demand for them. For the 50 years I’ve watched or been in the “game” pilots were required to have an ATP, thousands of hours, 50% or more were ex-military, many of the civilians has thousands of corporate or charter jet time. I went to UPT with over 1200 hours. A friend went to UPT, with 3000 hours of piston twin time, got out of UPT (ANG) went into flying jet cargo, got on with DL in his 20svwith over 5,000 hours of time. That’s not an unusual resume here. It’s unique to the US and the history is hard to overcome. UA and TW tried that plan in the 60s and it failed. Will they be forced to now, perhaps.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:42 am

johns624 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, you would not, it depends on your training. See FAA Part 61 Section 160. Even so, where else would we accept 9 months work experience where hundreds of lives are at stake. Even 1500 hours is slim work experience.
How many hours did you have when y Probably about 300TT. when he got his wings and another 800-1000 Hours before becoming a plane commander on a transport of Freighter. unless he was in a fighter or Attack squadron where the number of flights counted more as fighters cannot fly more than 2-2.5 hours without refueling, though with inflight refueling? they can fly until the Pilot runs out of steam. I know one squadron of A-6B's that flew from MCAS El Toro non Stop to Mildenhall AB England being in flight refueled by Marine C130's. I was the F/E in the Navy P-3C that was Guiding them at 125 Nmi as they didn't have the inertial guidance at that time to do it themselves so we had them on our aft Radar until Lossiemouth Scotland. where they turned final for RAF Mildenhall. We then landed refueled and headed for NAS Jacksonville. Spent the night and then led a flight just crossing the North Atlantic to NAS Whidbey Island, Washington before returning to NAS Moffett Field CA. I got 10 days off for it . today? They would NOT have needed our help as they would probably have SATNAV.. were the A-6 still flying, because the P-3 isn't in frontline service either, and Moffett isn't even a NAS anymore.
 
avier
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:58 am

airlinepeanuts wrote:
The guys that almost crashed AA300 had tens of thousands of flight hours. Does it really matter?

That's one thing most would conveniently ignore in this thread. If it were an FO with low hours in that incident, the tone and reaction to it would have been very different.
 
planecane
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:10 am

777luver wrote:
Why not fly until you’re 75? *sarcasm* the real question is, do pilots really want to fly until they are 67? It’s only 2 years from 65 but even 65 seems to be pushing it. Having said that I’m sure there are pilots who would be more than willing to continue flying, and don’t want to stop.


Some surgeons operate well into their 70's. I know they are only responsible for one life at a time but, if there is sufficient medical (physical and mental) evaluation done, I don't really see a huge difference pushing the age to 67. I'm not sure if the arrival at 65 was science based or just picked because it coincided with Medicare eligibility.

More importantly to me would be a requirement that a pilot above a certain age can only fly with a pilot below a certain age. I do not have the background nor the knowledge of studies to know what those two age metrics should be.
 
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Vio
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:36 am

I have mixed feelings on this.

I've been flying professionally for just over a decade and, if I maintain my medical, I have another 24 years of flying ahead of me until I turn 65 (That's still the retirement age where I work).

Until this year, I didn't even entertain the idea of working past 60. What changed? This year the plane I was flying was retired and I ended up staying home, with full pay, for a number of months, until I started my new type rating. At first it was okay, but then I got extremely bored. (Winter is not fun in Canada). I told myself, "If this is what retirement is like, I don't want it". Fortunately, I hold a EU passport as well as Canadian, so I plan on spending summers in Canada and winters Greece, Southern Italy or Spain. I'll even learn to fish!

Joke aside, I think this "raising of age to 67" in order to keep your workforce is not the best way to go about it. There are many things airlines can do to attract qualified pilots. Higher pay is definitely an attracting factor, but there are other incentives. For example, they could have programs in place, where crews start and finish their shifts in cities of their choice (served by their airline obviously), or have "confirmed travel" to their hub. A lot of pilots are commuters, myself included. The attraction to living in smaller cities is not just a financial one. I for one, love where live. It's a perfect little city to raise a family. It's clean, quiet, historic and... almost 3 hours by car (40 mins by plane) from my place of work.

On the flip side, I think it's a bit discriminatory to force someone out of their job because of age. There are 65 year olds that are much healthier than 50 year olds. This should be decided by aviation medical examiners based on individual cases, not a random blanket policy.
 
johns624
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:40 am

planecane wrote:
I'm not sure if the arrival at 65 was science based or just picked because it coincided with Medicare eligibility.

The age was 60 until 2008.
 
zuckie13
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:28 pm

Just needs to be set up so it's no forced work until 67. Just make sure that pilots can retire with full pension at 65 and the extra two years are up to them.
 
Airbuser
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:37 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
Just needs to be set up so it's no forced work until 67. Just make sure that pilots can retire with full pension at 65 and the extra two years are up to them.


What pension? They are gone for all but a few pilots in the USA.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:05 pm

Airbuser wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
Just needs to be set up so it's no forced work until 67. Just make sure that pilots can retire with full pension at 65 and the extra two years are up to them.


What pension? They are gone for all but a few pilots in the USA.


Carrier contributions to Money Purchase Plans (often called Money Purchase Pension Plans) can be very generous relative to private employer pension plans in other industries - think 16% of earnings up to $58K versus a max 4% 401(k) match.

hivue wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
while DOT Secretary Buttigieg opinioned such a move was unlikely to help much.


And how much might it cost the airlines? A few weeks ago on CNBC Scott Kirby, when asked about raising pilot retirement age to help with the shortage, said that at United on any given day 36% of age 64 pilots are out with a short or long term medical issue. The problem is that a class 1 medical is a pretty rigorous challenge for folks past age 60 or so.


That's a very interesting statistic. Happen to know the value for another age cohort, say, the age 35-39 pilots?

I'm not sure what interested parties want a raise to the retirement age. Not carriers (at least not UA). Not the DOT. The Globe and Mail quoted Buttigieg:

Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg has not come out in favour of the hike in pilots’ retirement age, and he told Fox News earlier this month that the regulation is in place “for safety reasons. I haven’t seen any piece of information or data that would suggest that the reasoning has changed.”

Some pilots? Pilots don't set safety policy - they adhere to safety policy.
 
btfarrwm
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:13 pm

I can't imagine the airlines are too enthusiastic about this. The bottom line is that they would keep their highest pay-scale and least-productive pilots around for two more years.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:36 pm

UPlog wrote:
As a pilot, I don't see the issue of allowing folks the opportunity to continue flying for additional years so long as they maintain their medicals.

Ton of professionals work past 65, and even the full retirement age for Social Security is now 67 as well, and likely to rise further in the future.


Absolutely. The medical is the key.
 
910A
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:41 pm

These bills are DOA in this session of Congress. Chip Roy is one of the most hated members of the House and being a member of the Freedom Caucus, I can't see the Speaker pushing this bill.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:31 pm

There is a sort of "industrial-political complex" to all of this. A shortage brings about better contractual leverage, does it not? Raising the age for those who are medically capable is at least a promising short-term remedy breaking through on the political side. Why not embrace it?
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:49 pm

Didn't EASA recently decide not to raise the pilot retirement age above 65? And unless ICAO is onboard, raising the age in the US will do more harm to the industry than good.

The cascading training nightmare that would result from all the over 65 wide body pilots displacing back to domestic narrow body would overwhelm most airlines already maxed out training departments.

I also doubt many of the people who are used to senior wide body schedules and pay would stick around very long after getting a taste of the narrow body life, and the pay cut.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:14 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
Supposedly the FAA wants cognitive and stress testing now for everyone over 60 if the age goes to 67… so you’ll lose more pilots then you keep.

Just being honest


Also training departments would also agree that the older pilots are problematic. Training a motivated 27 year old versus a not motivated 64 year old is incredibly different.

They also go out on sick leave more.

So you’re not gaining much and both alpa and airlines know that

If age 67 happened I would do it. But I’d drop half my trips. And not be very productive at all but I would retain the ability to go get some cash if I wanted to. Which I won’t want to do that. But I’ll reserve the right. Id also refuse to go to initial qual on anything over the age of 60.

That sounds like a fair summary. Stress testing won't be fun.


I have had stress testing due to a heart issue every few years. It's not really that hard to go through.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:18 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
777luver wrote:
Why not fly until you’re 75? *sarcasm* the real question is, do pilots really want to fly until they are 67? It’s only 2 years from 65 but even 65 seems to be pushing it. Having said that I’m sure there are pilots who would be more than willing to continue flying, and don’t want to stop.

the Social Security age about now is 67 soot as a It would not be out of the ordinary for the retirement age to increase to 67. Going past 70? I would think NOT as an a Passenger airline Captain. Though as a freighter Captain? I could see that with Semi annual Medical exams and a semi annual sim Procedure check.


So are you saying it's safer for the public for a old person to fly a freighter vs passenger airframe as passengers are the risk issue. There are a large number of people in an EU country that would dispute that. After all a 747 freighter into an apartment building can obviously kill many as well!
 
traindoc
Posts: 381
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:59 pm

Amazing all the people dissing us older individuals! I am 74, and still work in the ER about 6 shifts (12 hours) per month. I maintain by Board Certification with annual online training and testing. In September, I will do a 2 day emergency procedure course, with cadavers, at a Medical School. (I do this every 2 years.) I enjoy what I do and strive to stay both current and also competent. The feedback from both patients and coworkers, is that I am still doing a good job. Likewise, there are many excellent pilots who are still flying, and are age 60+. Remember Al Haynes, who landed a DC-10, with no hydraulics? His age and experience saved hundreds of lives!
 
EssentialBusDC
Posts: 266
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:19 pm

traindoc wrote:
Amazing all the people dissing us older individuals! I am 74, and still work in the ER about 6 shifts (12 hours) per month. I maintain by Board Certification with annual online training and testing. In September, I will do a 2 day emergency procedure course, with cadavers, at a Medical School. (I do this every 2 years.) I enjoy what I do and strive to stay both current and also competent. The feedback from both patients and coworkers, is that I am still doing a good job. Likewise, there are many excellent pilots who are still flying, and are age 60+. Remember Al Haynes, who landed a DC-10, with no hydraulics? His age and experience saved hundreds of lives!


And is 6 shifts a month a full time job or just part time in comparison to others in the ER?

Yes Al Haynes had experience, and a lot of help from the other pilots in that cockpit that saved many on 232. And he was under 60.
 
Natflyer
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:11 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
Didn't EASA recently decide not to raise the pilot retirement age above 65? And unless ICAO is onboard, raising the age in the US will do more harm to the industry than good.

The cascading training nightmare that would result from all the over 65 wide body pilots displacing back to domestic narrow body would overwhelm most airlines already maxed out training departments.

I also doubt many of the people who are used to senior wide body schedules and pay would stick around very long after getting a taste of the narrow body life, and the pay cut.


And why would they go back to narrowbodies? Did not happen when retirement age was changed to 65.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:34 pm

A couple of things:

1) If you look at the name who are authors and co-sponsors of this bill, this bill will not have bi-partisan support. I don't see this bill getting out of House Transportation Committee.

2) The longer pilots go past age 60, the tougher it is to keep a FAA Class I Medical. While there will always be outliers, typically the older people get, things just start breaking down physically. For this reason, even if the age limit were bumped up to 67, I don't think it would solve the flight deck crew staffing problems airlines are facing.
 
EssentialBusDC
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:06 am

Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:39 pm

Natflyer wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
Didn't EASA recently decide not to raise the pilot retirement age above 65? And unless ICAO is onboard, raising the age in the US will do more harm to the industry than good.

The cascading training nightmare that would result from all the over 65 wide body pilots displacing back to domestic narrow body would overwhelm most airlines already maxed out training departments.

I also doubt many of the people who are used to senior wide body schedules and pay would stick around very long after getting a taste of the narrow body life, and the pay cut.


And why would they go back to narrowbodies? Did not happen when retirement age was changed to 65.

Because if ICAO doesn’t also change their age limit then over 65 can’t fly in international airspace. When the USA changed their age limit from 60 to 65, ICAO had already changed it to 65.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Bill introduced in U.S. Congress to raise pilot retirement age to 67

Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:30 pm

I don't see the problem in lifting the age to 67 if the medical is fine.

But it will have consequences. Other places in the world has done this already, and what happened was that the airlines also delay their pension age. So you have pilots that started their career in the mid 80s, having been promised 58, 60, 62 years or similar pension age, that keeps getting pushed out. This saves the airline in pension costs, but it's also not fair to the pilots that have been contributing to the pension for decades.

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