melpax wrote:

brucetiki wrote:

How long until the union starts accusing Qantas of wage theft and stealing people's jobs like the time Qantas wanted to put management in terminals over Christmas a few years ago.

A similar situation to how the large retailers get their HQ staff to help out in the stores over Christmas & other busy periods, although usually it's not for a 3 month stretch.

Can't see any exec staff doing a 3 month stretch, wouldn't surprise me if some rank & file HQ staff are 'voluntold' for airport duty.

It's not similar at all. The large retailers didn't illegally sack the floor workers. These head office staff aren't just "helping out" they are taking on the role for 3 months, a role that was performed by staff who were sacked.

Hope these latest developments are used during the ongoing court proceedings.

I wonder if QF would of been better selling off the ground handling business, including equipment and staff rather than just dumping it all and now dealing with the reality of dragged out legal action and contractors who can’t ramp up to meet their demand.

"a role that was performed by staff who were sacked."

Isn't the whole point that there are not enough people to fill the jobs? They are not stealing the job from somebody. there is nobody to fill the job!

There were 2,500 staff who were doing the job and were outsourced to external providers. You now have employees from the company who outsourced the work now doing the job.

Remember QF have stated in court that the company is no longer in the ground handling business and can't reinstate the illegally sacked employees...

a320fan wrote:

Goodbye wrote:

anstar wrote:

I wonder if Bonza also have a 2nd strategy... which is to make all the fuss about secondary routes with the real intention of going onto the main leisure routes... kind of a distraction to QF/JQ. They seem to have a smart bunch of people working there and I just dont see this secondary strategy with 737's working.

I just don't understand how they expect to fill 737s flying from MCY to Albury, Proserpine, Coffs Harbour, Mildura, Port Macquarie and Tamworth (amongst others!) multiple times a week? I know Brisbane is technically part of the catchment but how many people are going to travel from BNE 1 and a half hours up the highway to MCY to take these flights?

Whilst it’s exciting to see some of these smaller cities get new flights I too find it perplexing to think about when considering it further.

Southern Cities like Mildura, Albury, Newcastle would be primarily outbound demand. Bonza is offering Sunshine Coast, which is primarily inbound tourist demand. However these are small cities that won’t have large volumes of passengers travelling specifically to Sunshine Coast, except for maybe school holiday periods. I wonder if operating into BNE could be a better option for most the MCY routes Bonza has announced. Then you’re getting capital city catchment plus being in the middle of two popular leisure locations, the sunshine and Gold Coast. Now you’re better capturing traffic from places like Mildura and Albury going to the whole SEQ region. Passengers going to a Gold Coast holiday would I presume be more favourable to flying into BNE than MCY.

BNE would have a lot high fees to operate into, as opposed to MCY, which possibly could've gotten some financial incentives and subsidies from the Airport operator and the Sunshine Coast Regional Council. Bonza are trying to minimise their startup costs where possible.

In addition the Sunshine Coast isn't the only catchment for the for the Airport, they would also aiming for the Gympie Regional, Noosa Shire and Moreton Bay Region (Northern Brisbane) catchments. Anybody in the BCC or the southern jurisdictions such as Logan City, Ipswich City, etc would be looking at Gold Coast Airport as an alternate as opposed to driving nearly 2 hours to MCY.

Qf648 wrote:

tsurumaru wrote:

Bonza’s model certainly has the potential to work - Allegiant has been in business for over 20 years by connecting similarly-sized towns in the US with tourist hotspots, and there are countless charter airlines doing the same in Europe. What all these have in common though is that a large proportion of ticket sales are in the form of package holidays - flights combined with hotels and other extras.

Although self-organised holidays are becoming more popular, I think Bonza would have a much greater chance of success on these routes if they were able to sell packaged trips. At the right price point, I could see there being a lot of demand for QLD beach holidays in places like MQL and ABX, or long weekend getaways (or even food + wine tours) to various destinations ex-MEL.

To be honest I can see their model working - but I can see them skimming the pool with flights from Adelaide to tourist destinations and from Perth to similar. this should give them a bit of critical mass to make some money

Why do all these third entrants who want to shake up the market go for a 737? Why not go for a smaller jet and have less seats to fill for hopefully similar CASK?

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220808-qfnw22sfo

SFO resumption pushed back further, I think it was 29th October before? QF possibly have delivery dates for the 3 remaining 789s firmed up now? So hopefully no more 787 delays and SFO can resume.

SCFlyer wrote:

a320fan wrote:

Goodbye wrote:

I just don't understand how they expect to fill 737s flying from MCY to Albury, Proserpine, Coffs Harbour, Mildura, Port Macquarie and Tamworth (amongst others!) multiple times a week? I know Brisbane is technically part of the catchment but how many people are going to travel from BNE 1 and a half hours up the highway to MCY to take these flights?

Whilst it’s exciting to see some of these smaller cities get new flights I too find it perplexing to think about when considering it further.

Southern Cities like Mildura, Albury, Newcastle would be primarily outbound demand. Bonza is offering Sunshine Coast, which is primarily inbound tourist demand. However these are small cities that won’t have large volumes of passengers travelling specifically to Sunshine Coast, except for maybe school holiday periods. I wonder if operating into BNE could be a better option for most the MCY routes Bonza has announced. Then you’re getting capital city catchment plus being in the middle of two popular leisure locations, the sunshine and Gold Coast. Now you’re better capturing traffic from places like Mildura and Albury going to the whole SEQ region. Passengers going to a Gold Coast holiday would I presume be more favourable to flying into BNE than MCY.

BNE would have a lot high fees to operate into, as opposed to MCY, which possibly could've gotten some financial incentives and subsidies from the Airport operator and the Sunshine Coast Regional Council. Bonza are trying to minimise their startup costs where possible.

In addition the Sunshine Coast isn't the only catchment for the for the Airport, they would also aiming for the Gympie Regional, Noosa Shire and Moreton Bay Region (Northern Brisbane) catchments. Anybody in the BCC or the southern jurisdictions such as Logan City, Ipswich City, etc would be looking at Gold Coast Airport as an alternate as opposed to driving nearly 2 hours to MCY.

In addition
Some of the southern destination are 1 stop from both BNE and OOL
So Ipswich or Logan to Mildura for example, would be worth the extra hour on the road to MCY

qf2220 wrote:

Qf648 wrote:

tsurumaru wrote:

Bonza’s model certainly has the potential to work - Allegiant has been in business for over 20 years by connecting similarly-sized towns in the US with tourist hotspots, and there are countless charter airlines doing the same in Europe. What all these have in common though is that a large proportion of ticket sales are in the form of package holidays - flights combined with hotels and other extras.

Although self-organised holidays are becoming more popular, I think Bonza would have a much greater chance of success on these routes if they were able to sell packaged trips. At the right price point, I could see there being a lot of demand for QLD beach holidays in places like MQL and ABX, or long weekend getaways (or even food + wine tours) to various destinations ex-MEL.

To be honest I can see their model working - but I can see them skimming the pool with flights from Adelaide to tourist destinations and from Perth to similar. this should give them a bit of critical mass to make some money

Why do all these third entrants who want to shake up the market go for a 737? Why not go for a smaller jet and have less seats to fill for hopefully similar CASK?

What smaller new aircraft could offer a similar CASK to a 737? Of course, it may be possible if you purchased secondhand 14 year old E190s like Alliance has but it would be pretty unlikely with a new aircraft. 777 Partners, the backers of Bonza, have plenty of 737s on order so there really was no choice for them anyway and they have very deep pockets to absorb start-up losses.

ben175 wrote:

IndianicWorld wrote:

Qf648 wrote:

To be honest I can see their model working - but I can see them skimming the pool with flights from Adelaide to tourist destinations and from Perth to similar. this should give them a bit of critical mass to make some money

How many markets would there be from ADL or PER that don’t already have service and can support a 737?

Many of the main markets are already covered by QF, JQ and VA, and anything else would likely be hard work, especially year round.

Australia is not Europe or the US, with many smaller airports to fly to that are in easy reach of cities with large enough catchment areas to make them work. Even some of the smaller cities that Allegiant fly to in the US are hundreds of thousands in population, not tens of thousands in Australia’s case.

The only two unserved transcons to PER I see working would be NTL and MCY.

They could jump on PER-BME, possibly with flights from MEL-BME etc (at least seasonally), airfares to BME in the dry are ridiculous.

However the main issue with all the winter sun spots is accommodation - This winter seems to be worse than ever, literally no accommodation (or extortionately exe) anywhere warm. Adding seats wont provide any extra accommodation on the ground.

a320fan wrote:

I wonder if QF would of been better selling off the ground handling business, including equipment and staff rather than just dumping it all and now dealing with the reality of dragged out legal action and contractors who can’t ramp up to meet their demand.

Who would have bought it? The GSE was old and needed upgrading, the staff were inefficient, disengaged and yet highly laid… I believe Swissport,
Menzies and Dnata have picked up the GSE, but they each have global procurement partnerships much larger than QF, combined with better utilisation to upgrade the kit.

I know QF can’t recruit front of house airport, cabin crew, and many management roles - none of which were outsourced. I wondered if even with an in-house team they still wouldn’t be short staffed? Dnata, Menzies, Swissport are all short without outsourcing. During the pandemic people had to be made redundant, I’d imagine it would be illegal to have eternal stand down ‘timing out’ employees to quit (or accrue leave) to avoid paying redundancy.

It took 80 years to build this industry, capacity, capabilities - can turn it back on in a dime in the middle of a labour crisis.

Flying through LHR - Aussie airports are a breeze! Checkin queue for 4hrs, security for 1.5hrs. Queues for coffee, chaos. Weirdly in contrast LGW was brilliant though - security beat AU hands down.

Changes to security upgrades domestically haven’t helped either.

jrfspa320 wrote:

ben175 wrote:

IndianicWorld wrote:

How many markets would there be from ADL or PER that don’t already have service and can support a 737?

Many of the main markets are already covered by QF, JQ and VA, and anything else would likely be hard work, especially year round.

Australia is not Europe or the US, with many smaller airports to fly to that are in easy reach of cities with large enough catchment areas to make them work. Even some of the smaller cities that Allegiant fly to in the US are hundreds of thousands in population, not tens of thousands in Australia’s case.

The only two unserved transcons to PER I see working would be NTL and MCY.

They could jump on PER-BME, possibly with flights from MEL-BME etc (at least seasonally), airfares to BME in the dry are ridiculous.

However the main issue with all the winter sun spots is accommodation - This winter seems to be worse than ever, literally no accommodation (or extortionately exe) anywhere warm. Adding seats wont provide any extra accommodation on the ground.

I think this winter will be an outlier - pent up demand due to Covid lockdowns last winter and o/s travel not having bounced back. Next winter is likely to be different.

NTLDaz wrote:

jrfspa320 wrote:

ben175 wrote:

The only two unserved transcons to PER I see working would be NTL and MCY.

They could jump on PER-BME, possibly with flights from MEL-BME etc (at least seasonally), airfares to BME in the dry are ridiculous.

However the main issue with all the winter sun spots is accommodation - This winter seems to be worse than ever, literally no accommodation (or extortionately exe) anywhere warm. Adding seats wont provide any extra accommodation on the ground.

I think this winter will be an outlier - pent up demand due to Covid lockdowns last winter and o/s travel not having bounced back. Next winter is likely to be different.

International demand'll probably spike. Which makes me hope that the 78s come in soon.

smi0006 wrote:

I know QF can’t recruit front of house airport, cabin crew, and many management roles - none of which were outsourced. I wondered if even with an in-house team they still wouldn’t be short staffed? Dnata, Menzies, Swissport are all short without outsourcing. During the pandemic people had to be made redundant, I’d imagine it would be illegal to have eternal stand down ‘timing out’ employees to quit (or accrue leave) to avoid paying redundancy.

They had a workforce that was admittedly relatively inefficient compared to the outsourced vendors, but - crucially - they had a workforce. Long serving staff who have been doing the job for a decade or more, and who earn relatively good pay and conditions, are generally not particularly motivated to leave. Even after JobKeeper ended there were targeted assistance packages with airline staff who were stood down, so it’s not like they would have been forced to quit. Even if half came back (and I expect that it would have actually been higher than that) then that’s better than starting from zero, plus it would be easier to hire onto a Qantas contract than Swissport. Qantas would have had all of the Swissport, Menzies, Dnata staff lining up for a permanent contract. Instead, Swissport can’t hire anyone when they offer casual employment, working split shifts, for barely more than minimum wage. That relatively inefficient workforce is much more desirable than the chronic issues that are now been experienced, and once the outsourced vendors inevitably start raising wages in a competitive labour market the savings will start to quickly evaporate.

As for cabin crew, it is completely baffling how Jetstar and National Jet Systems think they stand any chance of attracting employees in this current market when they only offer casual employment, through a labour hire intermediary, with five weeks unpaid training.* If they offered permanent contracts with reasonable pay and conditions then they would find it much easier to recruit staff. You can offer relatively poor pay and conditions when unemployment is over 5% (as it was for over a decade before the pandemic) but don’t then complain when you can’t get away with offering the same pay and conditions when unemployment is 3%. This isn’t complex, it’s basic supply and demand.

(* There is a $1500 ‘bonus’ paid retrospectively on successful completion of training. That still amounts to only $300 per week, less than half of minimum wage and less than JobSeeker, and you get nothing for five weeks if you don’t pass training)

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220809-ci4q22auoz

CI changes to Australia/NZ including the return of BNE-AKL service.

Experienced ground staff like QF had, are only deemed inefficient because the cost to maintain them compared to the cheap outside hires was deemed too much, well at least to the almighty corporate dollar chasers. It's only when they're gone you realise that the job they performed isn't that easy. You simply can't throw anybody off the street in and expect them to perform to anywhere near the same level, especially when the amount being paid will never attract the most suitable candidates. The reality is, it is a shit job and the conditions you need to work in are appalling and what is being offered to fill these positions is an insult.

Those deemed inefficient 2 years ago, would be a god send to airlines now, now that their true value can be recognised and appreciated.

Does anyone know which QF 73H is erroneously appearing on FR24 as Jetstar A321 VH-VWY currently inbound to BNE as QF668 from ADL.

The funny thing is that particular A321 is now VH-ULY with EFA and also inbound to BNE on a Qantas Frieght flight from MEL.

I just looked up Altara, and didn’t realise that Qantas (mainline) is also recruiting through them, still on casual labour hire. Qantas is a nine week unpaid training course, for which you get $2500 ‘bonus’.

I also discovered that while Jetstar is $1500, NJS is $500 plus another $500 after six months.

In this market, who do they think is going to sign up for several weeks (or several months for QF) unpaid labour followed by casual labour hire? Of course they can’t find staff if that’s what they’re offering.

RyanairGuru wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

I know QF can’t recruit front of house airport, cabin crew, and many management roles - none of which were outsourced. I wondered if even with an in-house team they still wouldn’t be short staffed? Dnata, Menzies, Swissport are all short without outsourcing. During the pandemic people had to be made redundant, I’d imagine it would be illegal to have eternal stand down ‘timing out’ employees to quit (or accrue leave) to avoid paying redundancy.

They had a workforce that was admittedly relatively inefficient compared to the outsourced vendors, but - crucially - they had a workforce. Long serving staff who have been doing the job for a decade or more, and who earn relatively good pay and conditions, are generally not particularly motivated to leave. Even after JobKeeper ended there were targeted assistance packages with airline staff who were stood down, so it’s not like they would have been forced to quit. Even if half came back (and I expect that it would have actually been higher than that) then that’s better than starting from zero, plus it would be easier to hire onto a Qantas contract than Swissport. Qantas would have had all of the Swissport, Menzies, Dnata staff lining up for a permanent contract. Instead, Swissport can’t hire anyone when they offer casual employment, working split shifts, for barely more than minimum wage. That relatively inefficient workforce is much more desirable than the chronic issues that are now been experienced, and once the outsourced vendors inevitably start raising wages in a competitive labour market the savings will start to quickly evaporate.

As for cabin crew, it is completely baffling how Jetstar and National Jet Systems think they stand any chance of attracting employees in this current market when they only offer casual employment, through a labour hire intermediary, with five weeks unpaid training.* If they offered permanent contracts with reasonable pay and conditions then they would find it much easier to recruit staff. You can offer relatively poor pay and conditions when unemployment is over 5% (as it was for over a decade before the pandemic) but don’t then complain when you can’t get away with offering the same pay and conditions when unemployment is 3%. This isn’t complex, it’s basic supply and demand.

(* There is a $1500 ‘bonus’ paid retrospectively on successful completion of training. That still amounts to only $300 per week, less than half of minimum wage and less than JobSeeker, and you get nothing for five weeks if you don’t pass training)

You just summed it up perfectly! The labour market is much more mobile and dynamic since covid and most people frankly won't put up with poor work conditions in the current environment.

They won’t even give them a raincoat, so when it rains, no one shows up. Would you?

Truth is the aviation industry in Australia has spent much of the last 2 decades reducing working conditions, pays, job security, outsourcing, removing benefits etc.

Is it really a surprise nobody wants to work in the industry anymore?

I find it quite interesting that it seems like pay and benefits for cabin crew are becoming less and less enticing, however, in QFs defence I believe they have actually increased their benefits for new customer service agents. A friend of mine recently started in PER and received staff travel benefits immediately including business class (you used to have to wait something like 5-7 years beforehand for J).

vhebb wrote:

Truth is the aviation industry in Australia has spent much of the last 2 decades reducing working conditions, pays, job security, outsourcing, removing benefits etc.

Is it really a surprise nobody wants to work in the industry anymore?

Qantas has spent the past decade testing the elasticity of what levels of service they could offer their customers and get away with it and, on the other side, how much they could trim staff benefits and get away with it.

By and large they have got away with more than they probably thought possible when they started out but it appears they may have found their limits. They are unable to attract good staff and maintain staff morale at the current levels and customers have a reasonable expectation of a level of service from a so-called premium carrier that QF are currently unable to meet.

The new link between T3 and T4 has opened with all T3 pax now directed through the security checks at the northern end of T4.. I assume this means the security lanes at the start of Concourse E are now removed.....they won't be missed. VA and MEL have posted a video and maps of the new arrangement on their websites https://www.melbourneairport.com.au/VirginAustralia

tullamarine wrote:

vhebb wrote:

Truth is the aviation industry in Australia has spent much of the last 2 decades reducing working conditions, pays, job security, outsourcing, removing benefits etc.

Is it really a surprise nobody wants to work in the industry anymore?

Qantas has spent the past decade testing the elasticity of what levels of service they could offer their customers and get away with it and, on the other side, how much they could trim staff benefits and get away with it.

By and large they have got away with more than they probably thought possible when they started out but it appears they may have found their limits. They are unable to attract good staff and maintain staff morale at the current levels and customers have a reasonable expectation of a level of service from a so-called premium carrier that QF are currently unable to meet.

While it’s questionable whether they would have dared trying to outsource all ground handling and threaten to terminate the cabin crew EBA without the pandemic, they could have got away with the constant cuts to pay and conditions if its wasn’t for the pandemic and ensuing labour market disruption.

Many companies, not just Qantas, were caught with their pants down once unemployment fell to its lowest levels ever since the advent of modern labour and monetary policy. It’s still too early to tell whether this is a long term trend, especially once immigration start returning to pre-pandemic levels, but in the current moment the pandemic has reshaped the labour market in ways that most would never have expected. Continued degradation of pay and conditions is not feasible in this market, instead the complete opposite.

It’s not true that nobody wants to work for an airline anymore, there are thousands of cabin crew, ground crew, mechanics etc. working at Rex, Alliance, Link, Air North, Skytrans etc, plus Swissport, Dnata, Menzies, not to mention Jetstar and Virgin. In the past Qantas was the company everyone aspired to work for, and they would have had large numbers of staff at those other companies lining up for a job. Even if there was a tight labour market in the airline industry, Qantas would always be fine as they would just raid all of their competitors’ employees. Now, however, Qantas have devalued their employment terms so much that they can no longer rely on goodwill and aspiration to pull them through.

tullamarine wrote:

The new link between T3 and T4 has opened with all T3 pax now directed through the security checks at the northern end of T4.. I assume this means the security lanes at the start of Concourse E are now removed.....they won't be missed. VA and MEL have posted a video and maps of the new arrangement on their websites https://www.melbourneairport.com.au/VirginAustralia

Looking forward to trying it next week. Finally the lounge being airside is a good thing. The Premium Exit worked well but was only open during peak times, and I had more T4 departures lately than from the T3 pier.

Assuming they have also increased the number of security checkpoints at T4 then?

WIth mishandled bags being a constant problem for QF, The Australian is today reporting that QF management has decided to make the minimum domestic to international connection time 90 minutes, up from 60 minutes.

As someone who regularly does this transfer, let me say that even 90 minutes is pretty optimistic and I always go for about 2 hours. It is not just luggage that is the problem, it is sitting off the domestic terminal waiting for a gate and then the truly dire terminal transfer arrangement. On my last trip, the transfer was closed for 60 minutes due to lunch breaks and I ended up sharing a cab with other stranded passengers to get around to T1.

tullamarine wrote:

The new link between T3 and T4 has opened with all T3 pax now directed through the security checks at the northern end of T4.. I assume this means the security lanes at the start of Concourse E are now removed.....they won't be missed. VA and MEL have posted a video and maps of the new arrangement on their websites https://www.melbourneairport.com.au/VirginAustralia

Interesting, I was only in T4 yesterday and it still looked like a construction site. Though I was arriving so I didn’t go into the landside security area.

ben175 wrote:

I find it quite interesting that it seems like pay and benefits for cabin crew are becoming less and less enticing, however, in QFs defence I believe they have actually increased their benefits for new customer service agents. A friend of mine recently started in PER and received staff travel benefits immediately including business class (you used to have to wait something like 5-7 years beforehand for J).

Have you ever travelled on standby… Yes the perks of being eligible to travel in J/C are appealing but leading up to that upgrade is no walk in the park… Even once upgraded your treated like a 3rd class citizen & let me tell you better off travelling Y/C…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Very interesting reading the news and opinions about Bonza. I, like many others cant possibly see how they are going to make some of those routes work. The thing that strikes me though this is not Aussie Bob who owns a corner shop opening an airline business. 777 partners are well backed firm with many interests and businesses, one of them being "Flair" a LCC in Canada. They come across as people who know what they are doing. I find the whole thing bizarre it really is like they know something we all don't. Reading their website they are very confident people in themselves. Their front page reads "777 Partners are a private investment firm that creates long term value for our portfolio companies and stakeholders by applying proprietary capital, underwriting expertise, technology and data analytics to generate superior returns and mitigate risk". How is flying a 737 between Sunshine Coast and Albury not risky or going to generate superior returns?

P.S no offence to Aussie Bob!

On another note having flown out of Sunshine Coast airport a few times in the last year it really will be interesting to see how that airport handles the arrival of Bonza. Just seems very busy now after covid. Admittingly last time I flew out of there it was during school holidays and the Air NZ flight was also in. Its not check in or security it just seems to be a lack of floor space in the actual terminal itself once you are past security. I know in the master plan a new terminal is proposed nearer to the new runway but not sure whether this has been funded or not. It would be interesting to hear from someone who travels through there more regularly than me and their opinion.

EK413 wrote:

ben175 wrote:

I find it quite interesting that it seems like pay and benefits for cabin crew are becoming less and less enticing, however, in QFs defence I believe they have actually increased their benefits for new customer service agents. A friend of mine recently started in PER and received staff travel benefits immediately including business class (you used to have to wait something like 5-7 years beforehand for J).

Have you ever travelled on standby… Yes the perks of being eligible to travel in J/C are appealing but leading up to that upgrade is no walk in the park… Even once upgraded your treated like a 3rd class citizen & let me tell you better off travelling Y/C…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed standby travel is extremely stressful, and chances of an upgrade these days are near zero. But if you do get one - hardly treated 3rd class and hardly better off in Y - so you get last meal choice, hardly end of the world. Spent me entire life traveling on staff travel my parents and my own, always been looked after phenomenally we’ll be crews, in all cabins and all airlines!! Most ground staff have been amazing too. Just harder/impossible these days due to full flights!

They could jump on PER-BME, possibly with flights from MEL-BME etc (at least seasonally), airfares to BME in the dry are ridiculous.

However the main issue with all the winter sun spots is accommodation - This winter seems to be worse than ever, literally no accommodation (or extortionately exe) anywhere warm. Adding seats wont provide any extra accommodation on the ground.

I agree on Broome, definitely could do with a LCC. But makes me think there are many other places like Broome that could also do with a LCC. One of them is Alice Springs. Places like this with ridiculously high airfares make me wonder if introducing a LCC with low enough airfares will generate demand. I know the friends I see in Alice would travel more if the airfares weren't in the 500+ bracket everytime they went to fly. When airfares are that high a trip to Sydney for a long weekend isn't feasible. I know Bonza hasn't announced Alice Springs but maybe this is the angle Bonza is looking at generating demand through low fares at these kind of places.

tullamarine wrote:

WIth mishandled bags being a constant problem for QF, The Australian is today reporting that QF management has decided to make the minimum domestic to international connection time 90 minutes, up from 60 minutes.

As someone who regularly does this transfer, let me say that even 90 minutes is pretty optimistic and I always go for about 2 hours. It is not just luggage that is the problem, it is sitting off the domestic terminal waiting for a gate and then the truly dire terminal transfer arrangement. On my last trip, the transfer was closed for 60 minutes due to lunch breaks and I ended up sharing a cab with other stranded passengers to get around to T1.

Ha! At the rate they’re going they’ll be cancelling all connections. On my last Qantas/Jetstar trip 3 weeks ago I connected at Sydney I had a 4 hour layover and they still lost my bags. It seemed everyone who was on my flight who connected had their bags lost. When arriving in Queenstown the ground handler mentioned in passing it was normal for at least 2 passengers bags to be to be lost on each flight to Queenstown especially if they’ve connected.

I wonder the money saved by outsourcing has been negated because of the amount of money spent having to pay compensation for peoples lost luggage each flight.

EK413 wrote:

ben175 wrote:

I find it quite interesting that it seems like pay and benefits for cabin crew are becoming less and less enticing, however, in QFs defence I believe they have actually increased their benefits for new customer service agents. A friend of mine recently started in PER and received staff travel benefits immediately including business class (you used to have to wait something like 5-7 years beforehand for J).

Have you ever travelled on standby… Yes the perks of being eligible to travel in J/C are appealing but leading up to that upgrade is no walk in the park… Even once upgraded your treated like a 3rd class citizen & let me tell you better off travelling Y/C…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Uh yes, I have frequently travelled on standby recently and have never been “treated like a 3rd class citizen”, in fact I would say the majority of times I’ve been incredibly well looked after (sometimes given extra perks from the crew if in Y). Upgrade rate has been about 50% on my domestic travel this year, and I got one on the way back from Indonesia too a few weeks ago. You just have to be savvy and willing to be slightly flexible.

OffTheRails wrote:

Very interesting reading the news and opinions about Bonza. I, like many others cant possibly see how they are going to make some of those routes work. The thing that strikes me though this is not Aussie Bob who owns a corner shop opening an airline business. 777 partners are well backed firm with many interests and businesses, one of them being "Flair" a LCC in Canada. They come across as people who know what they are doing. I find the whole thing bizarre it really is like they know something we all don't. Reading their website they are very confident people in themselves. Their front page reads "777 Partners are a private investment firm that creates long term value for our portfolio companies and stakeholders by applying proprietary capital, underwriting expertise, technology and data analytics to generate superior returns and mitigate risk". How is flying a 737 between Sunshine Coast and Albury not risky or going to generate superior returns?

P.S no offence to Aussie Bob!

On another note having flown out of Sunshine Coast airport a few times in the last year it really will be interesting to see how that airport handles the arrival of Bonza. Just seems very busy now after covid. Admittingly last time I flew out of there it was during school holidays and the Air NZ flight was also in. Its not check in or security it just seems to be a lack of floor space in the actual terminal itself once you are past security. I know in the master plan a new terminal is proposed nearer to the new runway but not sure whether this has been funded or not. It would be interesting to hear from someone who travels through there more regularly than me and their opinion.

Does some of the departure space in MCY, get reduced with moving walls when NZ is in? Like how OOL’s current setup works.

With the range of the 78M, I would of thought they would gone after the DPS traffic. But would think there current ownership setup, might make it hard to get traffic rights on that route?

zkncj wrote:

OffTheRails wrote:

Very interesting reading the news and opinions about Bonza. I, like many others cant possibly see how they are going to make some of those routes work. The thing that strikes me though this is not Aussie Bob who owns a corner shop opening an airline business. 777 partners are well backed firm with many interests and businesses, one of them being "Flair" a LCC in Canada. They come across as people who know what they are doing. I find the whole thing bizarre it really is like they know something we all don't. Reading their website they are very confident people in themselves. Their front page reads "777 Partners are a private investment firm that creates long term value for our portfolio companies and stakeholders by applying proprietary capital, underwriting expertise, technology and data analytics to generate superior returns and mitigate risk". How is flying a 737 between Sunshine Coast and Albury not risky or going to generate superior returns?

P.S no offence to Aussie Bob!

On another note having flown out of Sunshine Coast airport a few times in the last year it really will be interesting to see how that airport handles the arrival of Bonza. Just seems very busy now after covid. Admittingly last time I flew out of there it was during school holidays and the Air NZ flight was also in. Its not check in or security it just seems to be a lack of floor space in the actual terminal itself once you are past security. I know in the master plan a new terminal is proposed nearer to the new runway but not sure whether this has been funded or not. It would be interesting to hear from someone who travels through there more regularly than me and their opinion.

Does some of the departure space in MCY, get reduced with moving walls when NZ is in? Like how OOL’s current setup works.

With the range of the 78M, I would of thought they would gone after the DPS traffic. But would think there current ownership setup, might make it hard to get traffic rights on that route?

VA have long proven that actual ownership realistically doesn’t affect access to international traffic rights. However such a setup likely proves a bit too complex for a new ULCC startup.

smi0006 wrote:

a320fan wrote:

I wonder if QF would of been better selling off the ground handling business, including equipment and staff rather than just dumping it all and now dealing with the reality of dragged out legal action and contractors who can’t ramp up to meet their demand.

Who would have bought it? The GSE was old and needed upgrading, the staff were inefficient, disengaged and yet highly laid… I believe Swissport,
Menzies and Dnata have picked up the GSE, but they each have global procurement partnerships much larger than QF, combined with better utilisation to upgrade the kit.

I know QF can’t recruit front of house airport, cabin crew, and many management roles - none of which were outsourced. I wondered if even with an in-house team they still wouldn’t be short staffed? Dnata, Menzies, Swissport are all short without outsourcing. During the pandemic people had to be made redundant, I’d imagine it would be illegal to have eternal stand down ‘timing out’ employees to quit (or accrue leave) to avoid paying redundancy.

It took 80 years to build this industry, capacity, capabilities - can turn it back on in a dime in the middle of a labour crisis.

Flying through LHR - Aussie airports are a breeze! Checkin queue for 4hrs, security for 1.5hrs. Queues for coffee, chaos. Weirdly in contrast LGW was brilliant though - security beat AU hands down.

Changes to security upgrades domestically haven’t helped either.

In addition to the GSE, I think the major challenge with selling the business is that the purchaser also inherits the legacy employment contracts and conditions which, I suspect, is the main reason the business was 'exited'. I can't see any other practical way to achieve the same outcome (lower ground handling expenses) without needing mass redundancies.

smi0006 wrote:

EK413 wrote:

ben175 wrote:

I find it quite interesting that it seems like pay and benefits for cabin crew are becoming less and less enticing, however, in QFs defence I believe they have actually increased their benefits for new customer service agents. A friend of mine recently started in PER and received staff travel benefits immediately including business class (you used to have to wait something like 5-7 years beforehand for J).

Have you ever travelled on standby… Yes the perks of being eligible to travel in J/C are appealing but leading up to that upgrade is no walk in the park… Even once upgraded your treated like a 3rd class citizen & let me tell you better off travelling Y/C…


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Agreed standby travel is extremely stressful, and chances of an upgrade these days are near zero. But if you do get one - hardly treated 3rd class and hardly better off in Y - so you get last meal choice, hardly end of the world. Spent me entire life traveling on staff travel my parents and my own, always been looked after phenomenally we’ll be crews, in all cabins and all airlines!! Most ground staff have been amazing too. Just harder/impossible these days due to full flights!

Don't miss staff travel one iota but was grateful for the opportunity to see many parts of the world and have some amazing experiences relatively inexpensively (Concorde between LHR & JFK for $200 in the mid 90's was one of them) and often in the big seats and more often than not, with great service.

But that was ~20 years ago and it (and I) were different. I just wouldn't go through the stress of sub load travel anymore and I would not consider it a 'perk' like I did then.
I remember someone saying to me early on that you always need to put yourself out when travelling sub load and we lived by that when it came to staff travel - don't travel during peak times, don't complain when you've spent the whole day trying to get on a flight on Easter Friday/Boxing Day that is going to cost you $10 - I never understood it. We were offloaded only twice domestically and had some 'creative' connections in SIN on the way back home and reckon we had a 90% strike rate on travelling J but it was stressful. Would I do that again - no way!

News report on the changes to T3 security screening & connection to T4 in MEL. And finally, T1 will be shown some love, first stage of the T1 works to be open by Christmas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCI8ugp44ls

melpax wrote:

News report on the changes to T3 security screening & connection to T4 in MEL. And finally, T1 will be shown some love, first stage of the T1 works to be open by Christmas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCI8ugp44ls

Calling what is going on in MEL T1 a massive overhaul may be a bit excessive. A large part of what is being done in it relates to updated retail concessions and toilets. There will also be the upgrade to the screening equipment but, as far as I can tell, that is about it.

News from Link Airways now an earning partner of Virgin Australia's Velocity Frequent Flyer program.

https://www.linkairways.com/book/veloci ... uent-flyer

ben175 wrote:

EK413 wrote:

ben175 wrote:

I find it quite interesting that it seems like pay and benefits for cabin crew are becoming less and less enticing, however, in QFs defence I believe they have actually increased their benefits for new customer service agents. A friend of mine recently started in PER and received staff travel benefits immediately including business class (you used to have to wait something like 5-7 years beforehand for J).

Have you ever travelled on standby… Yes the perks of being eligible to travel in J/C are appealing but leading up to that upgrade is no walk in the park… Even once upgraded your treated like a 3rd class citizen & let me tell you better off travelling Y/C…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Uh yes, I have frequently travelled on standby recently and have never been “treated like a 3rd class citizen”, in fact I would say the majority of times I’ve been incredibly well looked after (sometimes given extra perks from the crew if in Y). Upgrade rate has been about 50% on my domestic travel this year, and I got one on the way back from Indonesia too a few weeks ago. You just have to be savvy and willing to be slightly flexible.

My personal experience has never been pleasant and always wonder if it’s worth all the stress standing at a counter til -45mins and then having to rush through customs, security and off to your gate…

That to me is what I refer to and if seats have been wide open in Y/C I’ve always told the counter just book me a seat if it means not standing around…

Is the experience up front far more superior than Y/C, yes, I won’t deny it but at least treat us like the other pax. I’ve been on a flight’s where my partner was spoken down to like she wasn’t entitled to be there and had to bite her tongue on several occasions…


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MEL really does need major works to the piers themselves. Even T1’s newest pier from the early 2000’s is not a great design, but atleast it has more light and is a better passenger experience.

The older piers in T1, T2 and T3 could do with some significant work to:
* increase ceiling height
* Larger windows to let in more natural light
* widen the passenger concourse
* improve the facilities

It will be a hard task to do that while terminals are still operational, and whether the piers themselves can be widened much given the required gate clearances to the taxiways in between, but they shouldn’t be left forever as they are.

I know that the airport had plans to rebuild T1 and T3 to include international swing gates which would need a rebuild of those areas, but just seems that some projects are left for a long time with only minor cosmetic updates to cover over the cracks.

RyanairGuru wrote:

As for cabin crew, it is completely baffling how Jetstar and National Jet Systems think they stand any chance of attracting employees in this current market when they only offer casual employment, through a labour hire intermediary, with five weeks unpaid training.* If they offered permanent contracts with reasonable pay and conditions then they would find it much easier to recruit staff. You can offer relatively poor pay and conditions when unemployment is over 5% (as it was for over a decade before the pandemic) but don’t then complain when you can’t get away with offering the same pay and conditions when unemployment is 3%. This isn’t complex, it’s basic supply and demand.

(* There is a $1500 ‘bonus’ paid retrospectively on successful completion of training. That still amounts to only $300 per week, less than half of minimum wage and less than JobSeeker, and you get nothing for five weeks if you don’t pass training)

JQ had direct entry recruitment earlier this year onto perm contracts.

eta unknown wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

EK413 wrote:

Have you ever travelled on standby… Yes the perks of being eligible to travel in J/C are appealing but leading up to that upgrade is no walk in the park… Even once upgraded your treated like a 3rd class citizen & let me tell you better off travelling Y/C…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed standby travel is extremely stressful, and chances of an upgrade these days are near zero. But if you do get one - hardly treated 3rd class and hardly better off in Y - so you get last meal choice, hardly end of the world. Spent me entire life traveling on staff travel my parents and my own, always been looked after phenomenally we’ll be crews, in all cabins and all airlines!! Most ground staff have been amazing too. Just harder/impossible these days due to full flights!

I have the same background as you. I can tell by your comments a large portion of your flights weren't on BA- if they were you would definitely know what being treated like a 3rd class citizen is like.

Intriguing experiences on this thread… but I’ve never had a bad experience on staff travel.
Some of my best flights were on BA (even had a few cockpit visits whilst on the ground with BA) and always treated well across oneworld airlines - QF, BA, MH, JL, RJ, CX. Last used my privileges about 10 yrs ago though so things may have gone downhill since. I do think it usually depends on the crew operating… but almost 95% of the time they have always been extremely welcoming and treated us like ‘family’.. maybe I’ve just been lucky…

What's everyones opinion on a possible EMB-120 replacement for Airnorth? Those birds are over 33 years old, with the oldest at 37 (???) with no public info on what they are planning yet. The shortest runway they operate into would be Milingimbi at around 1300m long. Although it's a 62% jump in capacity (18 more seats) over the EMB-120, is the ATR42 the obvious pick?

Fuling wrote:

What's everyones opinion on a possible EMB-120 replacement for Airnorth? Those birds are over 33 years old, with the oldest at 37 (???) with no public info on what they are planning yet. The shortest runway they operate into would be Milingimbi at around 1300m long. Although it's a 62% jump in capacity (18 more seats) over the EMB-120, is the ATR42 the obvious pick?

There is no obvious replacement. It is the same problem that REX will have when it eventually admits that it needs to replace its SAABs. SAAB and Embraer no longer produce anything this small and the smaller Dash 8s are also no longer produced which means the ATS42 is the obvious candidate even if, as you admit, it is actually not a one-for-one replacement either.

OffTheRails wrote:

On another note having flown out of Sunshine Coast airport a few times in the last year it really will be interesting to see how that airport handles the arrival of Bonza. Just seems very busy now after covid. Admittingly last time I flew out of there it was during school holidays and the Air NZ flight was also in. Its not check in or security it just seems to be a lack of floor space in the actual terminal itself once you are past security. I know in the master plan a new terminal is proposed nearer to the new runway but not sure whether this has been funded or not. It would be interesting to hear from someone who travels through there more regularly than me and their opinion.

Yep MCY is quite short on terminal capacity - it's my local airport and I flew out of there a few months ago and there was standing room only as my departure was in a peak period with JQ flights to Sydney and Melbourne, a QF flight to Sydney and my VA flight to Melbourne all departing around the same time. God knows what it will be like with 2 or 3 Bonza aircraft on the ground as well and ANZ now!