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scbriml
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:06 am

gensys wrote:
scbriml wrote:

While I doubt that anyone here has all the information, it would certainly appear that Airbus has decided that having QR as a customer simply isn't worth it.


... and to be fair, it would appear the inverse is true as well.


Only if you ignore QR's response to having their planes cancelled by Airbus. :lol:
 
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vhtje
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:20 am

It is interesting reading this, and previous threads about the divide between QR and Airbus. Lots of posts making definitive and emotive statements about the relationship between the two parties in to the future.

I have been in business a long, long time and I can tell you one thing I have learned for sure: sentiment, emotion and history mean absolutely zero. Leaders change, circumstances change, but most of all: money always wins. QR and Airbus will do business together again, once the circumstances are right.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:06 am

Aseem747 wrote:
Great decision when I'm looking at it from a passenger pov, more airlines should give manufacturers the hardest time if there's any flaws.


I agree, more great A350s for airlines I'm more likely to fly than QR !
 
Aseem747
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:25 am

Aesma wrote:
Aseem747 wrote:
Great decision when I'm looking at it from a passenger pov, more airlines should give manufacturers the hardest time if there's any flaws.


I agree, more great A350s for airlines I'm more likely to fly than QR !

If you agree with the 2nd part of my comment too, those A350 that others will get are unlikely to fly for a long time either so good luck
 
mig17
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:27 pm

Aseem747 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Aseem747 wrote:
Great decision when I'm looking at it from a passenger pov, more airlines should give manufacturers the hardest time if there's any flaws.


I agree, more great A350s for airlines I'm more likely to fly than QR !

If you agree with the 2nd part of my comment too, those A350 that others will get are unlikely to fly for a long time either so good luck

Not "any flaws"... Yes in case airworthiness is concerned. But no if it is not.
The judgement is not done yet, but I suspect it will be at QR expense in the end. Both will be find guilty of things, but the balance will fall on QR side. They have gone to far, grounding or not accepting airworthy planes and asking for compensations for the grounding due to a "secondary issue".
 
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zeke
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:43 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:

Well, if you believe the Qatari version of the story the QCAA will gradually remove the remainder of the A350's from service and ground them for safety reasons. Then the aircraft likely will rot away in the desert unless some miracle happens.

The miracle likely being Airbus to buy all these planes back on top of paying a hefty compensation.


One needs to remember that QR does not own most of these aircraft, they are leased.

The aircraft could be placed outside of the QCAA jurisdiction with another carrier by the lessor.
 
LTEN11
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:08 pm

zeke wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:

Well, if you believe the Qatari version of the story the QCAA will gradually remove the remainder of the A350's from service and ground them for safety reasons. Then the aircraft likely will rot away in the desert unless some miracle happens.

The miracle likely being Airbus to buy all these planes back on top of paying a hefty compensation.


One needs to remember that QR does not own most of these aircraft, they are leased.

The aircraft could be placed outside of the QCAA jurisdiction with another carrier by the lessor.


So if QR doesn't own some, or all of the aircraft currently grounded, are QR still paying leasing fees ?

If QR aren't paying leasing fees, then why doesn't the owner repossess the aircraft, repair them and offer them to another customer ?

If the aircraft aren't owned by QR, but QR are paying leasing fees on them, then the argument that QR are trying to cut capacity because they've over ordered (which they're not, as they've returned grounded aircraft to operation and leased other aircraft in) or trying extort money from Airbus as some here seem to believe, just doesn't make sense, never did really. Is it really that hard to believe that QR really do think that the aircraft have deficiencies and that accepting the Airbus current solution is only going to continually involve having to repair aircraft, at significant cost, throughout the life of the airframe.

Having said that, yes I agree that QR have gone about this the wrong way, but in fairness, I really don't think Airbus has acted much better. It's like watching kids throw the toys out of the cot, only on a grand scale, though nothing like China and the tantrum it's throwing at the moment.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:32 pm

gensys wrote:
scbriml wrote:

While I doubt that anyone here has all the information, it would certainly appear that Airbus has decided that having QR as a customer simply isn't worth it.


... and to be fair, it would appear the inverse is true as well.

By that, do you mean it would appear QR has decided that having Airbus as a supplier simply isn't worth it?

OK, but what are they to do? While QR is only one of many Airbus' customers, Airbus is one of only two QR's supplier...
Airbus is losing a customer, QR is losing half of its suppliers.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:36 pm

vhtje wrote:
It is interesting reading this, and previous threads about the divide between QR and Airbus. Lots of posts making definitive and emotive statements about the relationship between the two parties in to the future.

I have been in business a long, long time and I can tell you one thing I have learned for sure: sentiment, emotion and history mean absolutely zero. Leaders change, circumstances change, but most of all: money always wins. QR and Airbus will do business together again, once the circumstances are right.

I don't believe anyone has said QR will never, ever again do business with Airbus; people are saying this will happen as long as AAB is heading QR, which is much more probable.
But, AAB is a human being, his days at the head of QR are not infinite; when he is gone, Airbus and QR will surely kiss and make up, ala AA & Airbus.
 
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zeke
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:49 pm

LTEN11 wrote:
If the aircraft aren't owned by QR, but QR are paying leasing fees on them, then the argument that QR are trying to cut capacity because they've over ordered (which they're not, as they've returned grounded aircraft to operation and leased other aircraft in) or trying extort money from Airbus as some here seem to believe, just doesn't make sense, never did really. Is it really that hard to believe that QR really do think that the aircraft have deficiencies and that accepting the Airbus current solution is only going to continually involve having to repair aircraft, at significant cost, throughout the life of the airframe.


From this thread lease rates for an A350 viewtopic.php?t=1460947
“ A350-900 - $77.0 - 149.0M, $450-1,030,000”

Call it US$1 million a month, they are claiming damages of circa US$200,000 per day per aircraft
 
DartHerald
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:34 pm

zeke wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
If the aircraft aren't owned by QR, but QR are paying leasing fees on them, then the argument that QR are trying to cut capacity because they've over ordered (which they're not, as they've returned grounded aircraft to operation and leased other aircraft in) or trying extort money from Airbus as some here seem to believe, just doesn't make sense, never did really. Is it really that hard to believe that QR really do think that the aircraft have deficiencies and that accepting the Airbus current solution is only going to continually involve having to repair aircraft, at significant cost, throughout the life of the airframe.


From this thread lease rates for an A350 viewtopic.php?t=1460947
“ A350-900 - $77.0 - 149.0M, $450-1,030,000”

Call it US$1 million a month, they are claiming damages of circa US$200,000 per day per aircraft


Presumably the QR claim is for storage costs and loss of earnings, as well as leasing costs?
 
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PW100
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:45 pm

About the safety argument by the Qatar Aviation Authority, grounding QR A350s, would the Authority still allow third country A350s flying into Qatar airspace, or even operating into Doha? And will they then need to undergo "safety inspections" for paint deterioration?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:53 pm

Aseem747 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Aseem747 wrote:
Great decision when I'm looking at it from a passenger pov, more airlines should give manufacturers the hardest time if there's any flaws.


I agree, more great A350s for airlines I'm more likely to fly than QR !

If you agree with the 2nd part of my comment too, those A350 that others will get are unlikely to fly for a long time either so good luck


I don't really agree, no. QR is known to be very nitpicky about the smallest issue, for example with the carpeting. I'm not saying they should accept the aircraft if there is a flaw with it, but they shouldn't make a big fuss/that big a fuss about it.

With the issue/flaw at hand, probably because they were already making a big fuss about small things, they went way overboard.

By comparison other aircraft have been grounded, by reliable regulators, and airlines have of course demanded compensation, but didn't condemn the aircraft. Even after crashes (737MAX). It's of course good business sense, since at the end of the day you will usually get the aircraft in the air and don't want passengers to feel unsafe, but for some reason QR isn't acting in a sensible way.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:52 pm

PW100 wrote:
About the safety argument by the Qatar Aviation Authority, grounding QR A350s, would the Authority still allow third country A350s flying into Qatar airspace, or even operating into Doha? And will they then need to undergo "safety inspections" for paint deterioration?


I suspect nobody knows the answer to those questions because, as far as I know, nobody has ever seen the QCAA's A350 grounding order.
 
Aseem747
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:32 am

Aesma wrote:
Aseem747 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

I agree, more great A350s for airlines I'm more likely to fly than QR !

If you agree with the 2nd part of my comment too, those A350 that others will get are unlikely to fly for a long time either so good luck


I don't really agree, no. QR is known to be very nitpicky about the smallest issue, for example with the carpeting. I'm not saying they should accept the aircraft if there is a flaw with it, but they shouldn't make a big fuss/that big a fuss about it.

With the issue/flaw at hand, probably because they were already making a big fuss about small things, they went way overboard.

By comparison other aircraft have been grounded, by reliable regulators, and airlines have of course demanded compensation, but didn't condemn the aircraft. Even after crashes (737MAX). It's of course good business sense, since at the end of the day you will usually get the aircraft in the air and don't want passengers to feel unsafe, but for some reason QR isn't acting in a sensible way.

Condemning the aircraft itself a bit too much I agree however most of the things Qatar is doing I wouldn't mind if other airlines did for flaws with aircraft. The public "threats" that Emirates gave for example about not taking delivery until the issue is fixed is quite reasonable and if they actually don't take delivery on time assuming that the flaws still exist, it would be a good thing in my eyes.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:41 am

Aseem747 wrote:
The public "threats" that Emirates gave for example about not taking delivery until the issue is fixed is quite reasonable


Is this the same Emirates that now wants its A350s delivered more quickly? :scratchchin:

https://www.thenationalnews.com/busines ... et-delays/
"Emirates is in discussions with Airbus to take delivery of its A350 wide-body aircraft at a faster pace amid continuing delays with Boeing's 777X programme."
 
Aseem747
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:51 am

scbriml wrote:
Aseem747 wrote:
The public "threats" that Emirates gave for example about not taking delivery until the issue is fixed is quite reasonable


Is this the same Emirates that now wants its A350s delivered more quickly? :scratchchin:

https://www.thenationalnews.com/busines ... et-delays/
"Emirates is in discussions with Airbus to take delivery of its A350 wide-body aircraft at a faster pace amid continuing delays with Boeing's 777X programme."

Yep, that's why I said "if they actually don't take delivery on time" I would find it reasonable. I don't think they will but if they do it'll be for the best. Don't know what point your trying to make here.
 
LTEN11
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:52 am

scbriml wrote:
Aseem747 wrote:
The public "threats" that Emirates gave for example about not taking delivery until the issue is fixed is quite reasonable


Is this the same Emirates that now wants its A350s delivered more quickly? :scratchchin:

https://www.thenationalnews.com/busines ... et-delays/
"Emirates is in discussions with Airbus to take delivery of its A350 wide-body aircraft at a faster pace amid continuing delays with Boeing's 777X programme."


He talks about compressing the delivery schedule for later aircraft, not about accelerating the delivery of the early aircraft, which are still nearly 2 years away. The subject of the skin degradation isn't mentioned and whether they would delay delivery if the issue isn't resolved.
 
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PM
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:33 am

According to their July figures, Airbus still have a QR order for 38 -1000s on their books.

Maybe the big cancellation was in the first days of August.

Or maybe it never happened ...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:28 am

PM wrote:
According to their July figures, Airbus still have a QR order for 38 -1000s on their books.

Maybe the big cancellation was in the first days of August.

Or maybe it never happened ...


The news item that started this thread was dated 3rd August and Tim Herper is normally reliable. But, AFAIK, neither Airbus nor QR has confirmed. The lack of outrage from QR/Al Baker is somewhat surprising.
 
Gar1G
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:42 am

scbriml wrote:
PM wrote:
According to their July figures, Airbus still have a QR order for 38 -1000s on their books.

Maybe the big cancellation was in the first days of August.

Or maybe it never happened ...


The news item that started this thread was dated 3rd August and Tim Herper is normally reliable. But, AFAIK, neither Airbus nor QR has confirmed. The lack of outrage from QR/Al Baker is somewhat surprising.


Only increases the likelihood that its due to some mutual agreement between the two as @accentra said in their earlier suggestion. Obviously we have to keep an eye on whenever the order book reflects the change.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:04 am

Tim Clarke was quote a while ago saying that EK wanted the surface issues fixed before delivery of the new frames EK is taking in a couple of years. Suggesting to me that a technical fix is in the pipeline

Maybe Airbus and QR have simply re-scheduled deliveries to a date after the fix is implemented?
 
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zeke
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:36 am

PM wrote:
According to their July figures, Airbus still have a QR order for 38 -1000s on their books.

Maybe the big cancellation was in the first days of August.

Or maybe it never happened ...


Not sure which site you looked at, I didn’t see anything on the Airbus site for the July 22 figures which indicates that any QR A321 or A350s were cancelled, nor any QR deliveries. Absence of evidence….,.

A number of additional court orders came out late July also.
 
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PM
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:53 am

zeke wrote:
PM wrote:
According to their July figures, Airbus still have a QR order for 38 -1000s on their books.

Maybe the big cancellation was in the first days of August.

Or maybe it never happened ...


Not sure which site you looked at, I didn’t see anything on the Airbus site for the July 22 figures which indicates that any QR A321 or A350s were cancelled, nor any QR deliveries. Absence of evidence….,.

A number of additional court orders came out late July also.

I looked at their Excel sheet published yesterday. They still record 38 active orders from QR for the -1000.

... as of 31st July.
 
asdf
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:07 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
gensys wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Airbus is losing a customer, QR is losing half of its suppliers.


thats the point
and with half of its suppliers QR will lose a big part of their special conditions and discounts @ boeing ...
 
LTEN11
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:31 pm

asdf wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
gensys wrote:


thats the point
and with half of its suppliers QR will lose a big part of their special conditions and discounts @ boeing ...


They can still go through leasing companies, that in itself is a competitive market.

Besides, if QR are going to order say, 60 777's or 787's, instead of maybe 30 and 30 350's, they'll still get a nice discount from Boeing.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:42 pm

LTEN11 wrote:
asdf wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:


thats the point
and with half of its suppliers QR will lose a big part of their special conditions and discounts @ boeing ...


They can still go through leasing companies, that in itself is a competitive market.

Besides, if QR are going to order say, 60 777's or 787's, instead of maybe 30 and 30 350's, they'll still get a nice discount from Boeing.

How can you write that? Why should Boeing give then 1 cent discount? They have nowhere else to go! That is exactly the position QR finds itself! "Nice discount" indeed!
 
LTEN11
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:49 pm

sassiciai wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
asdf wrote:

thats the point
and with half of its suppliers QR will lose a big part of their special conditions and discounts @ boeing ...


They can still go through leasing companies, that in itself is a competitive market.

Besides, if QR are going to order say, 60 777's or 787's, instead of maybe 30 and 30 350's, they'll still get a nice discount from Boeing.

How can you write that? Why should Boeing give then 1 cent discount? They have nowhere else to go! That is exactly the position QR finds itself! "Nice discount" indeed!


There is still the leasing option for any aircraft they want. If QR ends up giving Boeing all their business, with no guarantee they will, they will get a discount. It may not be as big as if they were head to head with Airbus, but it will still be there.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:57 pm

LTEN11 wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:

They can still go through leasing companies, that in itself is a competitive market.

Besides, if QR are going to order say, 60 777's or 787's, instead of maybe 30 and 30 350's, they'll still get a nice discount from Boeing.

How can you write that? Why should Boeing give then 1 cent discount? They have nowhere else to go! That is exactly the position QR finds itself! "Nice discount" indeed!


There is still the leasing option for any aircraft they want. If QR ends up giving Boeing all their business, with no guarantee they will, they will get a discount. It may not be as big as if they were head to head with Airbus, but it will still be there.

Convince me that what you just wrote is true! Pixy dust wont cut it!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:32 pm

And of course someone at Boeing will be thinking this is a costly customer to have so no huge discount.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:32 pm

sassiciai wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
How can you write that? Why should Boeing give then 1 cent discount? They have nowhere else to go! That is exactly the position QR finds itself! "Nice discount" indeed!


There is still the leasing option for any aircraft they want. If QR ends up giving Boeing all their business, with no guarantee they will, they will get a discount. It may not be as big as if they were head to head with Airbus, but it will still be there.

Convince me that what you just wrote is true! Pixy dust wont cut it!


How about the fact that QR still holds 50 purchase rights for the 777-9, and 16 for the 777-8F? They're not total fools there you know. The purchase rights for 25 additional 737MAX-10 are probably also still there.

They also will receive 23 more 787-9s the next few years, so I don't think QR is in need for new aircraft purchases very soon.

Eventually the court will come to a ruling, or there will be a settlement. The now grounded A350s will be patched up and flying again, either to the Airbus procedure which all other airlines with similar problems have accepted, or (less likely IMO) to a standard QR demands. And then the QR will have ample capacity again, A380s won't be required anymore.

If the remaining A350 order is indeed cancelled this could be a setback for QR, but they can always continue operating their 787-8s a couple of years longer than planned. Which could even be a good thing, the 787-8s are very useful for QR and their resale value isn't as high as QR had thought. So I think there is merit in an earlier post claiming QR has over ordered - QR did actually tell Boeing during the COVID-19 crisis they would be taking just 40 of the originally 60 ordered 777X passenger jets. Conversion of the 20 777X which moved to ASC606 to 777-8Fs happened at a later stage.
 
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par13del
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:35 pm

sassiciai wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
How can you write that? Why should Boeing give then 1 cent discount? They have nowhere else to go! That is exactly the position QR finds itself! "Nice discount" indeed!


There is still the leasing option for any aircraft they want. If QR ends up giving Boeing all their business, with no guarantee they will, they will get a discount. It may not be as big as if they were head to head with Airbus, but it will still be there.

Convince me that what you just wrote is true! Pixy dust wont cut it!

Why would you assume that any purchase would be a one time purchase, if Boeing charges whatever they want, why would the airline give them any repeat business, one would assume that they would go the leasing route to get competitive pricing.
Strange that this one OEM negativity only applies to one OEM, while the other who has built commonality in the product line is of no concern.
 
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Rifitto
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:30 pm

frigatebird wrote:

QR did actually tell Boeing during the COVID-19 crisis they would be taking just 40 of the originally 60 ordered 777X passenger jets. Conversion of the 20 777X which moved to ASC606 to 777-8Fs happened at a later stage.


Never heard of such thing , can you provide us a link for this claim ?

QR CEO said he is taking the 777X whenever it's ready ,never mentioning any cancellation

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2021/04/11/boeing-qatar-airways-al-baker-777x-launch-customer.html
 
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zeke
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:21 pm

Rifitto wrote:
Never heard of such thing , can you provide us a link for this claim ?


What he was saying is correct

“ To win the freighter order, Boeing agreed to convert a third of Qatar's existing order for 60 777X passenger planes, for which there is currently less demand, to the cargo version.”

From https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-01-31/
 
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Rifitto
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:07 am

zeke wrote:
Rifitto wrote:
Never heard of such thing , can you provide us a link for this claim ?


What he was saying is correct

“ To win the freighter order, Boeing agreed to convert a third of Qatar's existing order for 60 777X passenger planes, for which there is currently less demand, to the cargo version.”

From https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-01-31/


The conversion to the -F is pretty recent , frigatebird stated that QR was intending to take only 40 frames before the -F deal , i'm asking of a source of that claim
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:33 am

At the same time of the QR order for 14x 777-8F plus 20x conversions of 777X to 777-8F, Boeing moved 20x 777X from Asc606 to their list of orders they do expect to deliver..
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:57 am

Rifitto wrote:
zeke wrote:
Rifitto wrote:
Never heard of such thing , can you provide us a link for this claim ?


What he was saying is correct

“ To win the freighter order, Boeing agreed to convert a third of Qatar's existing order for 60 777X passenger planes, for which there is currently less demand, to the cargo version.”

From https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-01-31/


The conversion to the -F is pretty recent , frigatebird stated that QR was intending to take only 40 frames before the -F deal , i'm asking of a source of that claim


You'll have to accept that Boeing doesn't make any of this easy, but the dots are all there - you just have to join them up.
 
TC957
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:07 pm

Surely Boeing will treat dealing with AAB with the utmost caution as a likely difficult demanding client and prices will be negotiated according to this plus not having any competition.
 
accentra
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:03 am

Gar1G wrote:
scbriml wrote:
PM wrote:
According to their July figures, Airbus still have a QR order for 38 -1000s on their books.

Maybe the big cancellation was in the first days of August.

Or maybe it never happened ...


The news item that started this thread was dated 3rd August and Tim Herper is normally reliable. But, AFAIK, neither Airbus nor QR has confirmed. The lack of outrage from QR/Al Baker is somewhat surprising.


Only increases the likelihood that its due to some mutual agreement between the two as @accentra said in their earlier suggestion. Obviously we have to keep an eye on whenever the order book reflects the change.


This hasn't much got comment but FlightGlobal has reported that Airbus has indeed officially cancelled the remaining Qatar A350-1000 orders and removed them from its orderbook.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/a ... 30.article

It's behind a paywall but essentially says:

All the outstanding Airbus A350-1000s for Qatar Airways have been removed from the airline’s backlog, according to the airframer’s latest official monthly figures.

Qatar Airways had 42 A350-1000s on order of which 19 have been delivered.

As previously speculated, the lack of any objection/comment/anger from Qatar Airways/AAB does perhaps suggest that this might have happened by mutual consent between Airbus/Qatar? As it was probably in the interest of both parties that this further complication was removed and the remainder of the dispute decided by the court proceedings? Sometimes, even in the most bitter of disputes, bits of pragmatism do emerge.
 
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PM
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:32 am

accentra wrote:
Gar1G wrote:
scbriml wrote:

The news item that started this thread was dated 3rd August and Tim Herper is normally reliable. But, AFAIK, neither Airbus nor QR has confirmed. The lack of outrage from QR/Al Baker is somewhat surprising.


Only increases the likelihood that its due to some mutual agreement between the two as @accentra said in their earlier suggestion. Obviously we have to keep an eye on whenever the order book reflects the change.


This hasn't much got comment but FlightGlobal has reported that Airbus has indeed officially cancelled the remaining Qatar A350-1000 orders and removed them from its orderbook.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/a ... 30.article

It's behind a paywall but essentially says:

All the outstanding Airbus A350-1000s for Qatar Airways have been removed from the airline’s backlog, according to the airframer’s latest official monthly figures.

Qatar Airways had 42 A350-1000s on order of which 19 have been delivered.

As previously speculated, the lack of any objection/comment/anger from Qatar Airways/AAB does perhaps suggest that this might have happened by mutual consent between Airbus/Qatar? As it was probably in the interest of both parties that this further complication was removed and the remainder of the dispute decided by the court proceedings? Sometimes, even in the most bitter of disputes, bits of pragmatism do emerge.

I don't know any more than you do but it certainly looks like this was agreed by both parties. Makes sense.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:09 am

Agreed cancellation

No likely

More the case due to the legal battle so both sides keeping shut for now is the apting guesses
 
XAMTO
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:28 pm

 
eamondzhang
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Sun Sep 11, 2022 1:35 pm

XAMTO wrote:

I'll never say it's official when it comes out of Simple Flying. However Airbus did remove them from the order book per monthly O&D update, with no explanations given from either side as mentioned above.

Michael
 
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par13del
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:02 pm

So if an airline cancels an order they have to pay a penalty to the OEM, if the OEM cancels, do they have to pay a penalty to the carrier?
Just asking, we know the OEM can incur penalties for delayed delivery and performance metrics and the OEM can force acceptance.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:35 pm

par13del wrote:
So if an airline cancels an order they have to pay a penalty to the OEM, if the OEM cancels, do they have to pay a penalty to the carrier?
Just asking, we know the OEM can incur penalties for delayed delivery and performance metrics and the OEM can force acceptance.

No, if I put a deposit on something, sign a contract then breech that contract I quite likely won’t get my deposit back.

Fred


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Speedy752
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:46 pm

par13del wrote:
So if an airline cancels an order they have to pay a penalty to the OEM, if the OEM cancels, do they have to pay a penalty to the carrier?
Just asking, we know the OEM can incur penalties for delayed delivery and performance metrics and the OEM can force acceptance.


More than likely with this neither side paid or received anything, with silence indicating it’s mutual rather than QR trying to block accepting planes and AB building inventory a customer doesn’t want and potentially dumping it into the market depressing prices for other orders.
 
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par13del
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:36 pm

Does the cancellation of all orders now kill the court case or will it continue to a penalty phase?
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:35 pm

Airbus canceling QR’s remaining A350s is the least surprising headline since Tom Brady unretired.
 
sxf24
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:25 am

par13del wrote:
So if an airline cancels an order they have to pay a penalty to the OEM, if the OEM cancels, do they have to pay a penalty to the carrier?
Just asking, we know the OEM can incur penalties for delayed delivery and performance metrics and the OEM can force acceptance.


Deposits would generally be refunded with cancellation.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Airbus axes remaining A350 jet deal with Qatar -sources

Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:51 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

As for this outcome, I don't think anybody should celebrate it. It demonstrated an inability by Airbus to resolve the issue to QR's satisfaction and retain the customer. (Yes, there's certainly an argument that QR can be difficult - but everybody has known that for years.)


Interesting way of framing. Blaming Airbus instead of QR and downplay the childish behavior of QR because they “can be difficult”. Looking at the facts it’s clear this customer didn’t want to be satisfied and has done as much as possible -including a grounding- to get rid of those planes.


What's the contribution margin (revenue - variable cost) on ~fifty widebodies and ~fifty 321neos that Airbus might not sell to Qatar over the next decade? It was very costly for Airbus to walk away. There is no place else to go. Qatar as a carrier isn't going to disappear. Airbus just handed this margin to Boeing. There is no place else to go.

scbriml wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
As for this outcome, I don't think anybody should celebrate it. It demonstrated an inability by Airbus to resolve the issue to QR's satisfaction and retain the customer.


It takes two to tango, or in this case, not tango. Your interpretation of events will surprise nobody.


No, a decision not to tango can be made unilaterally. If that's what Airbus has done we have to wait to see if Qatar challenges the cancellation in court, then wins, loses, or settles.

the problem might not be ALL of airbus but the A350 in particular. the 787 is a single winding in construction while the A350 is CFRP panels mounted to a frame. Could really be something in the construction like a dissimilar metal reaction. Airbus might need an entirely new paint undercoating formula and testing.

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