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cledaybuck
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:10 pm

scbriml wrote:
Politics will probably make this a decision in favour of the 787.

If politics are so important and that favors the US (Boeing), why is it A330’s we are talking about replacing?
 
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Polot
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:13 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Politics will probably make this a decision in favour of the 787.

If politics are so important and that favors the US (Boeing), why is it A330’s we are talking about replacing?

Because the A330s are the oldest planes in the passenger fleet and the next ones due for replacement. What do you think they should be replacing?
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:16 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Politics will probably make this a decision in favour of the 787.

If politics are so important and that favors the US (Boeing), why is it A330’s we are talking about replacing?


The A330s were ordered and delivered a fair while ago, when Taiwan's situation wasn't as tumultuous? Also doesn't hurt to be on good terms with European countries.
 
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Polot
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:23 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Politics will probably make this a decision in favour of the 787.

If politics are so important and that favors the US (Boeing), why is it A330’s we are talking about replacing?


The A330s were ordered and delivered a fair while ago, when Taiwan's situation wasn't as tumultuous? Also doesn't hurt to be on good terms with European countries.

And aside from that China Airline’s fleet make up and available options were completely different 20+ years ago when they made decisions on the A330.

Just because the A330 was the best option then doesn’t automatically mean it remains the best option now (both politically and from an actual fleet/operations standpoint).

When doing political appeasement airlines look at recent actions, not decades old actions. CI has given Airbus/Europe a lot of recent orders (A350, A321neo) compared to Boeing/US (77F). That’s why it is thought politics is helping to tilt this towards Boeing.
 
Vicenza
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:12 pm

marcelh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:

This. I don’t buy the “delicate situation” mentioned in the first post. Taiwan needs the US and buying US planes can be used in their favor.


Boeing are certainly not going to turn down an order from China Airlines for fear of upsetting mainland China. :shakehead:

The simple reality is, China is already "punishing" America by not taking deliveries or ordering new planes from Boeing, so they have little to lose by accepting an order from China Airlines.


IMO it is important for Taiwan to gain support for their “cause” in the US. Buying European instead of US built planes won’t help.


Taiwan has already all the support they will ever need in the US, and have for a long time, so that's rather a moot point.
 
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scbriml
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:08 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Politics will probably make this a decision in favour of the 787.

If politics are so important and that favors the US (Boeing), why is it A330’s we are talking about replacing?


Because those are the frames that need replacing? :confused:

My point, which I clarified in a subsequent post, is that even if the A330neo was a marginally better choice for China Airlines, I would understand completely if they selected the 787 for political expediency. I'm really not sure what your point is.
 
GLANKG
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:22 pm

Taiwan needs a hawkish China rather than a handful Boeing 787s to secure US support. Airbus 321 was only chosen recently in favour of current 737.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:35 pm

zeke wrote:
ILikeTrains wrote:

At about 5500nm, the 78X carries ~1-2T more payload than a 251T A339, based on the competing payload-range charts on respective ACAPS. Winds are a different story, but the 78X cruises faster as well. At shorter ranges (<4000nm) the 78X carries ~12T more payload.


Personally I think this is hogwash, people who push this narrative seem to be the ones who use the knowingly false numbers of wiki for the A359 weights (empty weight of 142 tonnes). There is a poster from UA called Jayunited on here that has disclosed the UA 787-10 empty weight, their aircraft have higher OEW than our A359s.

Jayunited has also talked about how the UA 787-10 can basically only do AKL with pax only, no cargo, if they need to carry cargo they use the 777. DL does SYD with the A350-900.

I think they will have their own good idea of the A350 performance as they already operate them.

In any case this is irrelevant for the A330 replacement, they are looking for a regional wide body.
.

No one is talking about the A350.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:50 am

This could go either way, especially since CI chose 777 freighters. The 787-9 would slot in nicely for CI, and could also do thinner long haul too big for the B77W (and maintain a common pilot group), but the A339 and A359 would also be a common pilot group.
 
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zeke
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:53 am

ikolkyo wrote:
No one is talking about the A350.


I stopped counting on the first page of this thread when the number of posts mentioning the A350 went past 12.
 
trex8
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:56 am

BHRN wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
That means Boeing is seen as unlikely to use Pelosi's trip, which has not been formally authorised by the White House, to lobby actively for a 787 deal. "It's a really delicate situation these days," a person familiar with the process said’


If speaker Pelosi's trip could make a difference...

UK MPs are mulling to send a delegation to Taiwan by the end of this year. Then who knows if EU would follow suit...


EU sent MEPs already last year and VP EP this year
https://www.reuters.com/business/cop/ta ... 021-11-03/
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diploma ... irm-taipei
 
ILikeTrains
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:04 am

Zeke, the only time I mentioned the A350 was in engine manufacturer commonality with the A330neo. Performance wise, I was comparing the 787-10 to the A330-900Neo. The only person in this thread emphasizing the A350 is you.

To your later point, I agree regionally that neither aircraft will take a payload hit. If the goal is finding which aircraft could haul the most regionally, the 787-10 handily beats the A330Neo on raw payload (57T vs 46T) (Yes I am aware of Jays posts and I’m using data from the OEMs) and has 4 more pallet positions for belly cargo.

Not sure which aircraft wins on fuel burn, or what kind of deal could be struck with either manufacturer.
 
trex8
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:14 am

I honestly don't see the 789 as being needed, it has too much range, if they need a 300 seat 6000 miler, they got the big Airbus already.
I dont see a 78X needed either, too big, if anything I suspect every Taiwan airline is going to see the sweet spot for aircraft size shrinking with Starlux in the mix and likely more LCCs.
ROC government is not going to pressure them to make a decision contrary to what the airline feels is best financially. They are not going to bail out CI like they may have done the last century. As I have said before the government is no longer a majority shareholder though its still the largest shareholder through the China Aviation Foundation about 25%+, and about 10% by the National Development Fund which is the Taiwan sovereign wealth fund.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:01 am

MrHMSH wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Politics will probably make this a decision in favour of the 787.

If politics are so important and that favors the US (Boeing), why is it A330’s we are talking about replacing?


The A330s were ordered and delivered a fair while ago, when Taiwan's situation wasn't as tumultuous? Also doesn't hurt to be on good terms with European countries.

Taiwan!s situation has never not been tumultuous. If China attacks Taiwan, no one is going to care what planes Air China ordered.
 
trex8
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:58 am

cledaybuck wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
If politics are so important and that favors the US (Boeing), why is it A330’s we are talking about replacing?


The A330s were ordered and delivered a fair while ago, when Taiwan's situation wasn't as tumultuous? Also doesn't hurt to be on good terms with European countries.

Taiwan!s situation has never not been tumultuous. If China attacks Taiwan, no one is going to care what planes Air China ordered.

For the nth time here
China Airlines CI 中華航空 is Taiwanese ie Republic of China
Air China CA 中國國際航空 is from mainland China ie Peoples Republic of China
 
Metchalus
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:18 am

MoonC wrote:
Polot wrote:
MoonC wrote:

While not the flag carrier, politics did not stop Starlux from placing an all-Airbus fleet order, comprising of A321neos, A330-900neos, A350-900s and A350-1000s.

Starlux is a private carrier. China Airlines is state owned.


Sure, but they could still have opted for Boeing, even if for nothing more than as a friendly gesture. An order is an order, regardless who owns you.


An airline that decides which aircraft to order on the basis of being friendly, is not long for this world.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:13 am

trex8 wrote:
I honestly don't see the 789 as being needed, it has too much range, if they need a 300 seat 6000 miler, they got the big Airbus already.
I dont see a 78X needed either, too big, if anything I suspect every Taiwan airline is going to see the sweet spot for aircraft size shrinking with Starlux in the mix and likely more LCCs.
ROC government is not going to pressure them to make a decision contrary to what the airline feels is best financially. They are not going to bail out CI like they may have done the last century. As I have said before the government is no longer a majority shareholder though its still the largest shareholder through the China Aviation Foundation about 25%+, and about 10% by the National Development Fund which is the Taiwan sovereign wealth fund.


How can the 78X be "too big" if there is room for a startup to suceed and sopihen traffic? If the startup is entering the market because there is excess demand, then the best thing China Airlines can do is get the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X. Trying to compete with a low cost startup by going with a "shrink" and increasing your unit costs is sure to cause contraction.

Further, cargo is a big deal in the region and the additional cargo capacity of the 78X should further its advantage. The big question is timeline & availablity.

For what it's worth, the RR-1000-TEN is probably the best engine choice for their mission set from a technical basis as it tends to be more efficient during climb and near-airport operations, which these will spend a lot of their time. This advantage is somewhat small so the GE team can easily make up for it in the commericlal proposal ... but it's worth pointing out.
 
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zeke
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:54 am

Okcflyer wrote:
How can the 78X be "too big" if there is room for a startup to suceed and sopihen traffic? If the startup is entering the market because there is excess demand, then the best thing China Airlines can do is get the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X. Trying to compete with a low cost startup by going with a "shrink" and increasing your unit costs is sure to cause contraction.

Further, cargo is a big deal in the region and the additional cargo capacity of the 78X should further its advantage. The big question is timeline & availablity.

For what it's worth, the RR-1000-TEN is probably the best engine choice for their mission set from a technical basis as it tends to be more efficient during climb and near-airport operations, which these will spend a lot of their time. This advantage is somewhat small so the GE team can easily make up for it in the commericlal proposal ... but it's worth pointing out.


They are looking for a regional WB, if they went with the 339 it would be either the 205/215 W/V with derated engines, they could cover their Asian market with that configuration. I would love to see the numbers that supports the statement "the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X".

If the answer was so clearcut, there simply would be no thread. I really dont think they are so immature of an airline not to have already considered the 787-10 at the time they ordered the A350-900. So the question again is, what supports the statement "the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X".
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:37 am

cledaybuck wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
If politics are so important and that favors the US (Boeing), why is it A330’s we are talking about replacing?


The A330s were ordered and delivered a fair while ago, when Taiwan's situation wasn't as tumultuous? Also doesn't hurt to be on good terms with European countries.

Taiwan!s situation has never not been tumultuous. If China attacks Taiwan, no one is going to care what planes Air China ordered.


There are differing peaks and troughs, around the time of A330s being introduced relations were friendly enough for commercial flights to start.
 
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enzo011
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:45 am

ILikeTrains wrote:
Zeke, the only time I mentioned the A350 was in engine manufacturer commonality with the A330neo. Performance wise, I was comparing the 787-10 to the A330-900Neo. The only person in this thread emphasizing the A350 is you.

To your later point, I agree regionally that neither aircraft will take a payload hit. If the goal is finding which aircraft could haul the most regionally, the 787-10 handily beats the A330Neo on raw payload (57T vs 46T) (Yes I am aware of Jays posts and I’m using data from the OEMs) and has 4 more pallet positions for belly cargo.

Not sure which aircraft wins on fuel burn, or what kind of deal could be struck with either manufacturer.



You have to take into account that the 78X is so much larger when comparing it to the A339. The A339 is comparable to the 789 in length so not sure it is a surprise that the 78X has more capability when it comes to cargo space. So the question then is, will the heavier and larger aircraft positives outweigh the negatives when it comes the comparable aircraft? I mean if you do come to the conclusion you want a bigger aircraft than the A339, then you need to start comparing the A359 to the 78X.

The only reason why we are comparing the 78X against the A339 is that they are both seen as range limited and thus more suitable for regional operations. But the reality is that they are not really competing against each other as they are different aircraft when it comes to capacity.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:00 am

zeke wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
How can the 78X be "too big" if there is room for a startup to suceed and sopihen traffic? If the startup is entering the market because there is excess demand, then the best thing China Airlines can do is get the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X. Trying to compete with a low cost startup by going with a "shrink" and increasing your unit costs is sure to cause contraction.

Further, cargo is a big deal in the region and the additional cargo capacity of the 78X should further its advantage. The big question is timeline & availablity.

For what it's worth, the RR-1000-TEN is probably the best engine choice for their mission set from a technical basis as it tends to be more efficient during climb and near-airport operations, which these will spend a lot of their time. This advantage is somewhat small so the GE team can easily make up for it in the commericlal proposal ... but it's worth pointing out.


They are looking for a regional WB, if they went with the 339 it would be either the 205/215 W/V with derated engines, they could cover their Asian market with that configuration. I would love to see the numbers that supports the statement "the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X".

If the answer was so clearcut, there simply would be no thread. I really dont think they are so immature of an airline not to have already considered the 787-10 at the time they ordered the A350-900. So the question again is, what supports the statement "the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X".


I can be a bit more precise regarding "the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X"

- 78X has lower unit cost (per seat, per m^2, etc)
- 78X has higher revenue potential -- both passenger and cargo due it's extra space
- 78X and A339 operating costs are nearly similiar.

As an aircraft family:

- The 787 family offers both the 789 & 78X. If they truely have routes that cannot take advantage of the revenue potential of the 78X (~10-15%), they can go with a mixed 789/78X fleet with nearly zero additional cost and still take advantage of the X on routes where they can maximze returns
- In contrast, there is no revenue-maximization option for the A330neo. The A339 is as big as it gets.
- Comparing a 789 vs A339, the 789 typically burns a bit less than the A339.

Whether or not Boeing's commercial proposal for the 78X (or 789/78X combo) is "econonmical" is unknown at this point. However, the rumor is is for the 787, which implies a commerically viable proposal that doesn't over value it's core/fundmental advantages over the A330neo.

Given there appears to be market potential (hence new LCC start up), this implies demand is not a problem and therefore the 78X is the most technically suited (assuming demand assumption is true).
 
Opus99
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:09 am

zeke wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
How can the 78X be "too big" if there is room for a startup to suceed and sopihen traffic? If the startup is entering the market because there is excess demand, then the best thing China Airlines can do is get the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X. Trying to compete with a low cost startup by going with a "shrink" and increasing your unit costs is sure to cause contraction.

Further, cargo is a big deal in the region and the additional cargo capacity of the 78X should further its advantage. The big question is timeline & availablity.

For what it's worth, the RR-1000-TEN is probably the best engine choice for their mission set from a technical basis as it tends to be more efficient during climb and near-airport operations, which these will spend a lot of their time. This advantage is somewhat small so the GE team can easily make up for it in the commericlal proposal ... but it's worth pointing out.


They are looking for a regional WB, if they went with the 339 it would be either the 205/215 W/V with derated engines, they could cover their Asian market with that configuration. I would love to see the numbers that supports the statement "the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X".

If the answer was so clearcut, there simply would be no thread. I really dont think they are so immature of an airline not to have already considered the 787-10 at the time they ordered the A350-900. So the question again is, what supports the statement "the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X".

You and nobody here is going reasonably (I hope) to compare the 350-900 to the 787-10 as they excel in two completely different mission profiles, especially at the time when the jet was ordered.

Also the 78X is more efficient than the 339, as is the 789 as the market has made very clear.

Where was the 339 when Singapore ordered the 78X, when Korean ordered the 78X, when Eva ordered the 78X, when Saudia the 78X, when Vietnam ordered the 78X and looks like we might add China airlines to that list. If CX goes for the 78X, then I wonder what it really has to offer. Lufthansa looks very uninterested as they’ve gone 350 and 787-9. What is it’s USP besides being cheap?

All of whom operated the 330-300.

330NEO order book is extremely weak and has basically sold to delta and fringe airlines.

Air Asia X cancelled about a third of the firm order book.

Singapore airlines says the 787-10 gives them a 26% reduction in fuel burn vs the 330-300.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A330neo

Airbus says 14% reduction per seat vs the 330-300

Boeing says 25% reduction per seat vs the 330-300

https://www.flightglobal.com/orders-and ... 10.article

Airbus knows there’s no amount of marketing ploy that can make anything higher than 15% stick
 
Opus99
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:11 am

Anyway, as Dominic gates says as it stands sources indicate the 787 is favoured. Be it politically, be it by it’s own merit, if it comes to fruition it’s another 330 customer lost to the 787, let’s see what other customers do but that trend is becoming clear
 
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zeke
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:14 am

Okcflyer wrote:
I can be a bit more precise regarding "the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X"

- 78X has lower unit cost (per seat, per m^2, etc)
- 78X has higher revenue potential -- both passenger and cargo due it's extra space
- 78X and A339 operating costs are nearly similiar.


Does it have a lower unit cost ?

A330-900 - $90.5 - 110.0M, $550-820,000
B787-10 - $104.0 - 138.5M, $610-1,030,000
viewtopic.php?t=1460947

How much is a 787 simulator, if you can get your hands on one (large backlog for simulators).

How much would it cost to get 787 spares (many spares for the A330-300 work on the A330-900), what is the cost of incorporating a new fleet ?

Revenue potential is a silly comment, it is like the comments people put on here earlier abut using the 787-10 YVR-TPE, that is not what they use their regional widebodiees for. Yes you can put more seats on a 787-10, if you do that you take avaiable cargo space (baggage) and weight away. China Airlines do active management of their regional fleet, they will sub and change types on flights depending on demand, they dont throw the largest aircraft they can find on a city pair and lower ticket prices just to fill seats.

The operating costs would not be the same, the lower W/V on the 339 would provide lower landing and airways fees, they would also put more crew on the 787-10 for more pax.
 
mig17
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:15 am

It is not only the 22 A330ceo but also the 18 747-F that China Airlines is looking to replace :
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-07-28/

It is not explicitly said the A330ceo replacement "is restricted to" 78X and A330neo, while Kao Shing-Hwang (China Airlines president) is stating they are looking at 777-8F and A350-F for the 747-F replacement.
 
harshanajay
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:43 am

CAL's 333s (307 & 313 seat) are mostly utilised on intra-asia routes flying less than 4 hour sectors. 359s (306 seat) can also be observed flying almost these routes in addition to long haul. Their 321neos can also be observed flying sectors close to 4 hours. Could some of 333 routes be replaced by 321? Unlike SIA's regional 359, CAL dont seem to have multiple MTOW 359s (correct me if wrong). In CAL's intra-asia network 359 & 78X seem repetitive unlike SIA. EVA's 78X has 344 seats, which is almost likely for CAL as well. I believe this is too much for CAL's liking. A fairly regional density 788 with around 270 seats is also an option. Therefore if they go in favour of 787, it will be 789 only or 789/788 mix, which will complement 77W & 359 in long haul in addition to intra-asia routes.
 
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zeke
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:43 am

mig17 wrote:
It is not explicitly said the A330ceo replacement "is restricted to" 78X and A330neo


The article is a good find, it explicitly states “He declined to comment on the timing of the planned order and the types under consideration.”

So there is no statement about the A339 or 787.
 
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enzo011
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:06 pm

Opus99 wrote:
You and nobody here is going reasonably (I hope) to compare the 350-900 to the 787-10 as they excel in two completely different mission profiles, especially at the time when the jet was ordered.

Also the 78X is more efficient than the 339, as is the 789 as the market has made very clear.

Where was the 339 when Singapore ordered the 78X, when Korean ordered the 78X, when Eva ordered the 78X, when Saudia the 78X, when Vietnam ordered the 78X and looks like we might add China airlines to that list. If CX goes for the 78X, then I wonder what it really has to offer. Lufthansa looks very uninterested as they’ve gone 350 and 787-9. What is it’s USP besides being cheap?

All of whom operated the 330-300.

330NEO order book is extremely weak and has basically sold to delta and fringe airlines.

Air Asia X cancelled about a third of the firm order book.

Singapore airlines says the 787-10 gives them a 26% reduction in fuel burn vs the 330-300.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A330neo

Airbus says 14% reduction per seat vs the 330-300

Boeing says 25% reduction per seat vs the 330-300

https://www.flightglobal.com/orders-and ... 10.article

Airbus knows there’s no amount of marketing ploy that can make anything higher than 15% stick


Why can the A359 not enter the discussion? Is there a reason why the 78X and the A359 cannot be compared? Does the extra range negate the A359 somehow? You only look at range if you fill the aircraft to its MTOW, and seeing that Zeke mentions some 78X has a higher OEW than the A359 it means you just don't fill the A359 to MTOW. So you would still have the A359 at a capacity disadvantage compared to the 78X, but it is stupid to think they cannot be compared just because it has more advertised range.

Unless you think you can only ever compare aircraft that has a lower range than the 789 and A359 to each other. And somehow it is better to compare an aircraft that seats 330 aircraft compared to one that seats 285 or so and to just ignore the aircraft that seats 315. Why?
 
Opus99
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:49 pm

enzo011 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
You and nobody here is going reasonably (I hope) to compare the 350-900 to the 787-10 as they excel in two completely different mission profiles, especially at the time when the jet was ordered.

Also the 78X is more efficient than the 339, as is the 789 as the market has made very clear.

Where was the 339 when Singapore ordered the 78X, when Korean ordered the 78X, when Eva ordered the 78X, when Saudia the 78X, when Vietnam ordered the 78X and looks like we might add China airlines to that list. If CX goes for the 78X, then I wonder what it really has to offer. Lufthansa looks very uninterested as they’ve gone 350 and 787-9. What is it’s USP besides being cheap?

All of whom operated the 330-300.

330NEO order book is extremely weak and has basically sold to delta and fringe airlines.

Air Asia X cancelled about a third of the firm order book.

Singapore airlines says the 787-10 gives them a 26% reduction in fuel burn vs the 330-300.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A330neo

Airbus says 14% reduction per seat vs the 330-300

Boeing says 25% reduction per seat vs the 330-300

https://www.flightglobal.com/orders-and ... 10.article

Airbus knows there’s no amount of marketing ploy that can make anything higher than 15% stick


Why can the A359 not enter the discussion? Is there a reason why the 78X and the A359 cannot be compared? Does the extra range negate the A359 somehow? You only look at range if you fill the aircraft to its MTOW, and seeing that Zeke mentions some 78X has a higher OEW than the A359 it means you just don't fill the A359 to MTOW. So you would still have the A359 at a capacity disadvantage compared to the 78X, but it is stupid to think they cannot be compared just because it has more advertised range.

Unless you think you can only ever compare aircraft that has a lower range than the 789 and A359 to each other. And somehow it is better to compare an aircraft that seats 330 aircraft compared to one that seats 285 or so and to just ignore the aircraft that seats 315. Why?

In the context of when CI ordered the 350? Why would the 781 be in question when they’re trying to go deep long haul? He said why didn’t CI order the 781 vs the 350. Because the 781 was not considered. Be it more efficient, it cannot perform the stage length required. So why would it be compared and what is the point of the comparisons?

Of course a general comparison can be made. But in the context it is moot.

Secondly, China airlines ordered 350s in 2008 when the 787-10 when it was not offered or on sale.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:53 pm

Opus99 wrote:
You and nobody here is going reasonably (I hope) to compare the 350-900 to the 787-10 as they excel in two completely different mission profiles, especially at the time when the jet was ordered.

Also the 78X is more efficient than the 339, as is the 789 as the market has made very clear.

Where was the 339 when Singapore ordered the 78X, when Korean ordered the 78X, when Eva ordered the 78X, when Saudia the 78X, when Vietnam ordered the 78X and looks like we might add China airlines to that list. If CX goes for the 78X, then I wonder what it really has to offer. Lufthansa looks very uninterested as they’ve gone 350 and 787-9. What is it’s USP besides being cheap?

All of whom operated the 330-300.

330NEO order book is extremely weak and has basically sold to delta and fringe airlines.



Boeing (at least informally?) is offering the 78X with a higher MTOW, so hardly unfair to compare 2 aircraft of similar size and with Boeing seeing increased capability as a worthwhile endeavour.

Not all airlines go for the A339, clearly, but it does have a place. One thing going for it is its cost, another is availability and a last thing is commonality. It's a pretty agile offering as Airbus can deliver them at relatively short notice, if a 787 would be delivered 2 years later then that's 2 years of savings vs older aircraft, and the costs are similar enough to the 789 to make it worthwhile. Seen a handful go down that route already. It's also a reliable aircraft with very minor problems compared to 787s or A350s.

I'm not sure why it's relevant that the A339 sells to 'fringe' airlines (of course you're ignoring that there are some flag and high profile carriers in its portfolio) if it is selling, which it is. It already has 20 operators. A sale of an aircraft is a sale of an aircraft, and it has outsold the 78X despite being launched a year later. And to pre-empt your response about 'blue chip' airlines ordering an aircraft, it's not always relevant, just look at the A380.

Pedant's note: VN only operated a single A333, mostly A332s for them.
 
ILikeTrains
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:19 pm

enzo011 wrote:
ILikeTrains wrote:
Zeke, the only time I mentioned the A350 was in engine manufacturer commonality with the A330neo. Performance wise, I was comparing the 787-10 to the A330-900Neo. The only person in this thread emphasizing the A350 is you.

To your later point, I agree regionally that neither aircraft will take a payload hit. If the goal is finding which aircraft could haul the most regionally, the 787-10 handily beats the A330Neo on raw payload (57T vs 46T) (Yes I am aware of Jays posts and I’m using data from the OEMs) and has 4 more pallet positions for belly cargo.

Not sure which aircraft wins on fuel burn, or what kind of deal could be struck with either manufacturer.



You have to take into account that the 78X is so much larger when comparing it to the A339. The A339 is comparable to the 789 in length so not sure it is a surprise that the 78X has more capability when it comes to cargo space. So the question then is, will the heavier and larger aircraft positives outweigh the negatives when it comes the comparable aircraft? I mean if you do come to the conclusion you want a bigger aircraft than the A339, then you need to start comparing the A359 to the 78X.

The only reason why we are comparing the 78X against the A339 is that they are both seen as range limited and thus more suitable for regional operations. But the reality is that they are not really competing against each other as they are different aircraft when it comes to capacity.


I think size matters less here, as the differences are minor (78X 16ft more length, A339 13ft more wingspan). I’m doubtful CI cares much about the size of aircraft.

The comparison here is between each companies best wide body for regional services. Which also means we should be taking into consideration any regional w/v of the A350 that Airbus could offer as well.
 
Opus99
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:27 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
You and nobody here is going reasonably (I hope) to compare the 350-900 to the 787-10 as they excel in two completely different mission profiles, especially at the time when the jet was ordered.

Also the 78X is more efficient than the 339, as is the 789 as the market has made very clear.

Where was the 339 when Singapore ordered the 78X, when Korean ordered the 78X, when Eva ordered the 78X, when Saudia the 78X, when Vietnam ordered the 78X and looks like we might add China airlines to that list. If CX goes for the 78X, then I wonder what it really has to offer. Lufthansa looks very uninterested as they’ve gone 350 and 787-9. What is it’s USP besides being cheap?

All of whom operated the 330-300.

330NEO order book is extremely weak and has basically sold to delta and fringe airlines.



Boeing (at least informally?) is offering the 78X with a higher MTOW, so hardly unfair to compare 2 aircraft of similar size and with Boeing seeing increased capability as a worthwhile endeavour.

Not all airlines go for the A339, clearly, but it does have a place. One thing going for it is its cost, another is availability and a last thing is commonality. It's a pretty agile offering as Airbus can deliver them at relatively short notice, if a 787 would be delivered 2 years later then that's 2 years of savings vs older aircraft, and the costs are similar enough to the 789 to make it worthwhile. Seen a handful go down that route already. It's also a reliable aircraft with very minor problems compared to 787s or A350s.

I'm not sure why it's relevant that the A339 sells to 'fringe' airlines (of course you're ignoring that there are some flag and high profile carriers in its portfolio) if it is selling, which it is. It already has 20 operators. A sale of an aircraft is a sale of an aircraft, and it has outsold the 78X despite being launched a year later. And to pre-empt your response about 'blue chip' airlines ordering an aircraft, it's not always relevant, just look at the A380.

Pedant's note: VN only operated a single A333, mostly A332s for them.

I’ve already explained the context of the comparison above.

330NEO order book is very week. Currently sits at 272 (including Iran air, excluding Iran air it’s down to about 240 or so for the whole program. 330-900 you’re down to about 230 or so)

Fringe airlines, are we sure their orders are fully firm?

Blue chip doesn’t guarantee success of course. But the 330neos predecessor was built on the back of blue chip customers, many of which have ignored it.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:29 pm

Opus99 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
You and nobody here is going reasonably (I hope) to compare the 350-900 to the 787-10 as they excel in two completely different mission profiles, especially at the time when the jet was ordered.

Also the 78X is more efficient than the 339, as is the 789 as the market has made very clear.

Where was the 339 when Singapore ordered the 78X, when Korean ordered the 78X, when Eva ordered the 78X, when Saudia the 78X, when Vietnam ordered the 78X and looks like we might add China airlines to that list. If CX goes for the 78X, then I wonder what it really has to offer. Lufthansa looks very uninterested as they’ve gone 350 and 787-9. What is it’s USP besides being cheap?

All of whom operated the 330-300.

330NEO order book is extremely weak and has basically sold to delta and fringe airlines.



Boeing (at least informally?) is offering the 78X with a higher MTOW, so hardly unfair to compare 2 aircraft of similar size and with Boeing seeing increased capability as a worthwhile endeavour.

Not all airlines go for the A339, clearly, but it does have a place. One thing going for it is its cost, another is availability and a last thing is commonality. It's a pretty agile offering as Airbus can deliver them at relatively short notice, if a 787 would be delivered 2 years later then that's 2 years of savings vs older aircraft, and the costs are similar enough to the 789 to make it worthwhile. Seen a handful go down that route already. It's also a reliable aircraft with very minor problems compared to 787s or A350s.

I'm not sure why it's relevant that the A339 sells to 'fringe' airlines (of course you're ignoring that there are some flag and high profile carriers in its portfolio) if it is selling, which it is. It already has 20 operators. A sale of an aircraft is a sale of an aircraft, and it has outsold the 78X despite being launched a year later. And to pre-empt your response about 'blue chip' airlines ordering an aircraft, it's not always relevant, just look at the A380.

Pedant's note: VN only operated a single A333, mostly A332s for them.

I’ve already explained the context of the comparison above.

330NEO order book is very week. Currently sits at 272 (including Iran air, excluding Iran air it’s down to about 240 or so for the whole program. 330-900 you’re down to about 230 or so)

Fringe airlines, are we sure their orders are fully firm?

Blue chip doesn’t guarantee success of course. But the 330neos predecessor was built on the back of blue chip customers, many of which have ignored it.


Since the aircraft are in service and flying passengers, I don’t think it’s controversial to say they’re quite firm.

What applied for the A330ceo won’t necessarily apply for the A330neo. If the appeal is an aircraft that is available at short notice, then it won’t be overly surprising that the backlog won’t be large, as the aircraft are in and out of the backlog quickly.

It’s not a huge seller, but you have ignored some fairly high profile carriers, overlooked that it’s a simple re-engine which doesn’t need huge numbers to make money, and it is actually flying with 20 airlines. It’s far from a failure.
 
Theseus
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:28 pm

Opus99 wrote:
I’ve already explained the context of the comparison above.

330NEO order book is very week.


Indeed, you seem to repeat this over and over.
Is repeating this in circle the sole goal of the thread, or is it to discuss the needs of CI ?
 
cledaybuck
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:10 pm

trex8 wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

The A330s were ordered and delivered a fair while ago, when Taiwan's situation wasn't as tumultuous? Also doesn't hurt to be on good terms with European countries.

Taiwan!s situation has never not been tumultuous. If China attacks Taiwan, no one is going to care what planes Air China ordered.

For the nth time here
China Airlines CI 中華航空 is Taiwanese ie Republic of China
Air China CA 中國國際航空 is from mainland China ie Peoples Republic of China

Fine. If China attacks Taiwan, no one is going what planes Air China or China Airlines has ordered. :D
 
Opus99
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:11 pm

Theseus wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I’ve already explained the context of the comparison above.

330NEO order book is very week.


Indeed, you seem to repeat this over and over.
Is repeating this in circle the sole goal of the thread, or is it to discuss the needs of CI ?

It adds to my explanation that airlines generally don’t see it as a good option and it would make sense if CI joined that list
 
ewt340
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:57 pm

They got A350, wouldn't it makes more sense for them to go with A330neo though? They are retiring their B737 for A321neo too. So Adding A330neo would streamline their operations.
 
trex8
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:04 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
trex8 wrote:
I honestly don't see the 789 as being needed, it has too much range, if they need a 300 seat 6000 miler, they got the big Airbus already.
I dont see a 78X needed either, too big, if anything I suspect every Taiwan airline is going to see the sweet spot for aircraft size shrinking with Starlux in the mix and likely more LCCs.
ROC government is not going to pressure them to make a decision contrary to what the airline feels is best financially. They are not going to bail out CI like they may have done the last century. As I have said before the government is no longer a majority shareholder though its still the largest shareholder through the China Aviation Foundation about 25%+, and about 10% by the National Development Fund which is the Taiwan sovereign wealth fund.


How can the 78X be "too big" if there is room for a startup to suceed and sopihen traffic? If the startup is entering the market because there is excess demand, then the best thing China Airlines can do is get the most economical plane, which is undoubtably the 78X. Trying to compete with a low cost startup by going with a "shrink" and increasing your unit costs is sure to cause contraction.

Further, cargo is a big deal in the region and the additional cargo capacity of the 78X should further its advantage. The big question is timeline & availablity.

.

The CI A333s have @310 seats in 2 class, a 78X will likely have mid to high 300s capacity in 2 class. TW is a limited market compared to Korea, Japan. A 3rd full service carrier if successful will undoubtedly steal market share from the existing two. Starlux isnt starting up to cater for excess demand which is unmet, its starting up because the CEO has an ego, his family kicked him out of running BR and he wants revenge! And he's got several hundred million US$ of his own money to waste on this endeavor in addition to whatever banks will lend him as he ran BR fairly well before so some people think he's a good risk.
A 747 was the sweet spot for the TW carriers before, both CI and BR had trouble filling it. BR has trouble making money in their 77Ws. they fly more RPK than CI but fewer passengers, their higher RPKs is not in proportion to a slightly higher total pax revenue. JX running A359/A339 and A35K arent going to help the other two.
If BR/CI could run a 77W/744 before , with JX in the same market, they will need to run something smaller or lose money trying to fill it with cheap seats.
Cargo is a big deal, but CI has such a huge freighter fleet used also on regional routes, any A333 to 78X increased cargo capacity is a pittance.
Also a larger plane has significantly higher capital costs. You can save list 40 million + between a A338 and A339 (and similar 788 to 789) and another 20 mill between a A339 and A359. 40m from a 789 to 78X.

Personally I think they need some 250 seaters (like their old A300s) to fill the gap between their 180 seat A321 and 310 seat A333/A359. They could go 788/9 or A359/A338. If the A333 replacement goes to A then they will pick up a few more 777Fs and order 7778F. I'm not even sure they need a 77W size replacement if JX is successful. They have some planes coming up to the Taiwan CAA 26 year age restriction, I can't see them doing a 4th heavy check on the A333s, even a 3rd one! The two A333s which have been disposed of left at 12 and 15 years age.(not counting their leased VS frames). Many taken first decade this century coming up to 3rd heavy check next 2-3 years, though with reduced covid use maybe they can string it out a little into the future compared to the usual cycle.

Given their historically less than stellar safety record they may want to limit the number of pilot pools they have. When they had A343s, that was a separate pilot pool from the A333s. Possibly the only airline with both types to do that. I dunno what they are doing today with the A333 and A359 pilots.
3 pilot pools ultimately may be most efficient and safe. A321, A330/359, 77F/77W/77XF. The 787 is an odd man out. Given history unlikely they will do 787/777 cross crewing.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:44 am

ikolkyo wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
You do realize the 787 and A350 have comparable range? Either way, China Airlines is looking at the A33neo and 787....so they're adding a new type regardless. The 787-10 is a great regional airplane, contrary to your assertions.

But they currently have A330s, so the A330NEO shouldn't be too much of a new type in the sense that I would think the current A330 pilots could transition to the A330NEO without too much, if any, training.

Plenty of A330 operators did not opt for the A330neo, shouldn't be much of a surprise.

Right, but my main point was that the A330NEO wouldn't be a completely new type in the sense that current A330 pilots would be able to fly both versions as far as I know, whereas the 787 would be a completely new type altogether. Whether the airlines actually choose to purchase the A330NEO, on the other hand, is an entirely different story altogether and isn't really relevant to my point.
 
SueD
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:25 am

I’d counter to suggest the 359 regional as used by neighbours in Japan or the derated ones used by Singapore would be more than suitable for dynasty !
Rather than the 339 or 787-10 , just my opinion
 
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flee
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:50 pm

SueD wrote:
I’d counter to suggest the 359 regional as used by neighbours in Japan or the derated ones used by Singapore would be more than suitable for dynasty !
Rather than the 339 or 787-10 , just my opinion

I think the A359 will be substantially more costly than the A339.
 
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zeke
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:08 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Right, but my main point was that the A330NEO wouldn't be a completely new type in the sense that current A330 pilots would be able to fly both versions as far as I know, whereas the 787 would be a completely new type altogether. Whether the airlines actually choose to purchase the A330NEO, on the other hand, is an entirely different story altogether and isn't really relevant to my point.


This is correct, they have A330-302 with GE CF6-80E1A4 engines, addiding a 339 would be no differnt to adding a 333 with RR Trent 700 engines. The 339 is a basically marketing designation, it is still in reality an A330-300 with Trent 7000 engines. They can basicaly use the majority of the spares for the 333, the ground and flight crew are already trainied on type, and they can use their currrent sim for the 339.

This is somewhat of a moot poot, there is no confirmation that the 339 is actually being considered.
 
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Polot
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:19 pm

zeke wrote:
This is somewhat of a moot poot, there is no confirmation that the 339 is actually being considered.

The A339 is almost certainly being considered. Whether it is seen as one of the front runners is another question.
 
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enzo011
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:19 pm

flee wrote:
SueD wrote:
I’d counter to suggest the 359 regional as used by neighbours in Japan or the derated ones used by Singapore would be more than suitable for dynasty !
Rather than the 339 or 787-10 , just my opinion

I think the A359 will be substantially more costly than the A339.



And the 78X would be more expensive than the A359. So not sure what the point is here. Why do we have the need to only look at the A339 vs the 78X?
 
trex8
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:48 pm

flee wrote:
SueD wrote:
I’d counter to suggest the 359 regional as used by neighbours in Japan or the derated ones used by Singapore would be more than suitable for dynasty !
Rather than the 339 or 787-10 , just my opinion

I think the A359 will be substantially more costly than the A339.

By about 20 million each per 2018 Airbus list prices. Even with say a substantial discount over twenty something frames you are talking potentially several hundred million extra capital costs. Nothing to sniff at. And if you think, which I understand most people here do not, that they need a 250 seater for at least part of this replacement that’s 60 million less for a A338 than A359
https://www.airbus.com/sites/g/files/jl ... s-2018.pdf
But yes a A359 regional would certainly tick off a lot of boxes for them.
 
MRYapproach
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:41 pm

zeke wrote:
behramjee wrote:
Please note that YVR/SEA-TPE block time in winter is 12:30-13:00 and in this season especially departing from North America, the A339Neo would not be able to operate this sector with a full payload. In summer season the block time is 45 minutes shorter.


All this talk of long sectors is nonsense. The A330 is very popular in Asia because they are used within Asia to fly cargo between major cities. Taiwan is an island, wide bodies like the A330 are used for their cargo holds, passengers are somewhat secondary. The speed difference is really nonsense as well in regional role, ATC and airport delays just suck that away, they would have block time in their schedule that would allow them to sub in an A320 series for an A330, or 777. That is already happening today.

There was a time where they would operate them medium haul like to Australia, however that role has already be replaced by the A350.

If they were going to replace the A330 with something I would suggest it will be a low TOW aircraft (to reduce enroute and landing fees), that would give it range easily to go to India, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Korea, Japan, Mainland China.

People are missing the mark here not understanding how they use the aircraft in their fleet.


Yes, exactly. It is hard for Americans to understand the concept of medium haul widebodies. Probably for Europeans too. COVID gave us a reminder of what it used to be like flying widebodies between hubs, but that is starting to go away it seems. In Asia, widebodies do a huge amount of short and medium haul work, at least between the bigger airports. Maybe it's how the FAA regulates (or doesn't regulate) slots at hubs, or maybe it's having the flexibility to run the same plane on routes with wildly varying sector lengths while hauling a bunch of freight.

CI seems happy with their A350s for longer stuff, so the 787 doesn't really make sense there. I remember flying on the CI 77W 5-6 years ago when it was brand new, hard to believe they are already looking to replace them. But my guess there would be more A350s.

For the A330 replacement, my bet is on the A330neo.
 
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Polot
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:11 pm

MRYapproach wrote:
zeke wrote:
behramjee wrote:
Please note that YVR/SEA-TPE block time in winter is 12:30-13:00 and in this season especially departing from North America, the A339Neo would not be able to operate this sector with a full payload. In summer season the block time is 45 minutes shorter.


All this talk of long sectors is nonsense. The A330 is very popular in Asia because they are used within Asia to fly cargo between major cities. Taiwan is an island, wide bodies like the A330 are used for their cargo holds, passengers are somewhat secondary. The speed difference is really nonsense as well in regional role, ATC and airport delays just suck that away, they would have block time in their schedule that would allow them to sub in an A320 series for an A330, or 777. That is already happening today.

There was a time where they would operate them medium haul like to Australia, however that role has already be replaced by the A350.

If they were going to replace the A330 with something I would suggest it will be a low TOW aircraft (to reduce enroute and landing fees), that would give it range easily to go to India, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Korea, Japan, Mainland China.

People are missing the mark here not understanding how they use the aircraft in their fleet.


Yes, exactly. It is hard for Americans to understand the concept of medium haul widebodies. Probably for Europeans too. COVID gave us a reminder of what it used to be like flying widebodies between hubs, but that is starting to go away it seems. In Asia, widebodies do a huge amount of short and medium haul work, at least between the bigger airports. Maybe it's how the FAA regulates (or doesn't regulate) slots at hubs, or maybe it's having the flexibility to run the same plane on routes with wildly varying sector lengths while hauling a bunch of freight.

CI seems happy with their A350s for longer stuff, so the 787 doesn't really make sense there. I remember flying on the CI 77W 5-6 years ago when it was brand new, hard to believe they are already looking to replace them. But my guess there would be more A350s.

For the A330 replacement, my bet is on the A330neo.

The A330neo is not as well optimized for medium haul vs the 787 as many people here think…

You talk about 787 operating longer stuff but A339 range is only about ~500nm less (And A338 max range is a lot higher than 788!). The A330 has a wing similar in size to the 787 that was also designed with long haul flights in mind (A340…), and has similar weights. The 787 is very competitive against the A330neo in medium haul use.
 
oceanvikram
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:50 am

scbriml wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Politics will probably make this a decision in favour of the 787.

If politics are so important and that favors the US (Boeing), why is it A330’s we are talking about replacing?


Because those are the frames that need replacing? :confused:

My point, which I clarified in a subsequent post, is that even if the A330neo was a marginally better choice for China Airlines, I would understand completely if they selected the 787 for political expediency. I'm really not sure what your point is.


Well said.
 
 
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PM
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Re: China Airlines 330CEO Replacement - 330NEO vs 787

Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:37 am

Heavierthanair wrote:

16 to replace 22 A330s? I wonder if we see a split order coming.

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