Updated: Air India to lease in 42 aircraft (320/321/777LR/W)

sfojvjets · Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:53 am

Looks like AI will be leasing six 777s for a period of two years to help cover the existing US/Canada route network which has seen some delays due to "poor interiors" (I assume this means broken seats, etc). They will arrive in October.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 13369.html

Any idea where these 777s will come from? Would be nice to see a positive change in the AI experience, at least for the hard product.

Edited for clarity

DCA350 · Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:02 am

sfojvjets wrote:
Looks like AI will be leasing six 777s for a period of two years to help cover the existing US/Canada route network which has seen some delays due to "poor interiors" (I assume this means broken seats, etc). They will arrive in October.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 13369.html

Any idea where these 777s will come from? Would be nice to see a positive change in the AI experience, at least for the hard product.

Edited for clarity

There's a lot of 777Ws coming off lease and/or were grounded during the Pandemic. Did anybody pick up EYs? Cathay and EK have also had some come off lease.. I'm sure AI got a great deal..

avier · Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:04 am

sfojvjets wrote:
Looks like AI will be leasing six 777s for a period of two years to help cover the existing US/Canada route network which has seen some delays due to "poor interiors" (I assume this means broken seats, etc). They will arrive in October.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 13369.html

Any idea where these 777s will come from? Would be nice to see a positive change in the AI experience, at least for the hard product.

Edited for clarity

Interesting, that they'd want to expand the 777 type when getting the A350 by next year (likely, and as mentioned in article). They'd need to get more trained crew also then for the existing type.

Regarding from where they coming, my wild guess be on CX or EY birds. Other likely be a big operator like EK's ex-777 birds.
To note; in India the maximum age of aircraft leased for pax ops. should be around 15 years maximum. So based on that, it should be easier to narrow down where the birds be coming from.
https://sarinlaw.com/age-criteria-for-i ... nto-india/

behramjee · Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:46 am

avier wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
Looks like AI will be leasing six 777s for a period of two years to help cover the existing US/Canada route network which has seen some delays due to "poor interiors" (I assume this means broken seats, etc). They will arrive in October.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 13369.html

Any idea where these 777s will come from? Would be nice to see a positive change in the AI experience, at least for the hard product.

Edited for clarity

Interesting, that they'd want to expand the 777 type when getting the A350 by next year (likely, and as mentioned in article). They'd need to get more trained crew also then for the existing type.

Regarding from where they coming, my wild guess be on CX or EY birds. Other likely be a big operator like EK's ex-777 birds.
To note; in India the maximum age of aircraft leased for pax ops. should be around 15 years maximum. So based on that, it should be easier to narrow down where the birds be coming from.
https://sarinlaw.com/age-criteria-for-i ... nto-india/

I would be very surprised if they are CX birds because the B77Ws there have a 4 class cabin layout which is not what AI wants.

AI would want a 3 or 2 class cabin configuration preferably (J/Y).

Note that with 6 B788s + 3 B77Ws due to be back in service by Q1-2023, this too would help greatly in both optimizing + expanding its medium/long haul network.

JerseyFlyer · Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:17 am

Two-year leases seem right to me to support near-term expansion, replaced in a couple of years by early deliveries of a more permanent nature

smi0006 · Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:37 am

behramjee wrote:
avier wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
Looks like AI will be leasing six 777s for a period of two years to help cover the existing US/Canada route network which has seen some delays due to "poor interiors" (I assume this means broken seats, etc). They will arrive in October.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 13369.html

Any idea where these 777s will come from? Would be nice to see a positive change in the AI experience, at least for the hard product.

Edited for clarity

Interesting, that they'd want to expand the 777 type when getting the A350 by next year (likely, and as mentioned in article). They'd need to get more trained crew also then for the existing type.

Regarding from where they coming, my wild guess be on CX or EY birds. Other likely be a big operator like EK's ex-777 birds.
To note; in India the maximum age of aircraft leased for pax ops. should be around 15 years maximum. So based on that, it should be easier to narrow down where the birds be coming from.
https://sarinlaw.com/age-criteria-for-i ... nto-india/

I would be very surprised if they are CX birds because the B77Ws there have a 4 class cabin layout which is not what AI wants.

AI would want a 3 or 2 class cabin configuration preferably (J/Y).

Note that with 6 B788s + 3 B77Ws due to be back in service by Q1-2023, this too would help greatly in both optimizing + expanding its medium/long haul network.

If it’s a short term lease no reason why the W cabin can’t be sold as Y and give to frequent flyers?

Polot · Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:48 am

Or they can just introduce W at AI. Vistara has it on their 787s and I’m sure it is something Tata will explore at AI.

If they keep leased 777s on select routes and have it on incoming A350s introducing it wouldn’t be too much of a hassle.

All theoretical of course, since we don’t know source of the planes.

Spiderguy252 · Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:49 pm

Polot wrote:
Or they can just introduce W at AI. Vistara has it on their 787s and I’m sure it is something Tata will explore at AI.

Vistara has a 3-class product: J, W and Y.

The aircraft in question have 4 classes - F, J, W, Y.

Polot · Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:05 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Or they can just introduce W at AI. Vistara has it on their 787s and I’m sure it is something Tata will explore at AI.

Vistara has a 3-class product: J, W and Y.

The aircraft in question have 4 classes - F, J, W, Y.

I’m aware. People are wondering what AI would do with the W cabin since they currently don’t have one in the fleet. I’m proposing that AI may just end up adding W (to all their long haul aircraft eventually).

I brought up Vistara because since Tata has significant ownership in that airline as well, so it’s not like they are totally anti-W.

SQ22 · Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:12 pm

In order to keep this discussion out of the narrowbody thread I have moved the respective posts into a new dedicated thread.

Link to narrowbody thread:

Air India considering order for 300 narrow-body planes : Reports

rt23456p · Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:56 pm

behramjee wrote:
avier wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
Looks like AI will be leasing six 777s for a period of two years to help cover the existing US/Canada route network which has seen some delays due to "poor interiors" (I assume this means broken seats, etc). They will arrive in October.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 13369.html

Any idea where these 777s will come from? Would be nice to see a positive change in the AI experience, at least for the hard product.

Edited for clarity

Interesting, that they'd want to expand the 777 type when getting the A350 by next year (likely, and as mentioned in article). They'd need to get more trained crew also then for the existing type.

Regarding from where they coming, my wild guess be on CX or EY birds. Other likely be a big operator like EK's ex-777 birds.
To note; in India the maximum age of aircraft leased for pax ops. should be around 15 years maximum. So based on that, it should be easier to narrow down where the birds be coming from.
https://sarinlaw.com/age-criteria-for-i ... nto-india/

I would be very surprised if they are CX birds because the B77Ws there have a 4 class cabin layout which is not what AI wants.

AI would want a 3 or 2 class cabin configuration preferably (J/Y).

Note that with 6 B788s + 3 B77Ws due to be back in service by Q1-2023, this too would help greatly in both optimizing + expanding its medium/long haul network.

I think likely EK birds, as EK 77W have the exact same business class as AI 777s, not good passenger experience though.. Flying angle flat for 13hrs+.

jbs2886 · Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:25 pm

rt23456p wrote:
behramjee wrote:
avier wrote:
Interesting, that they'd want to expand the 777 type when getting the A350 by next year (likely, and as mentioned in article). They'd need to get more trained crew also then for the existing type.

Regarding from where they coming, my wild guess be on CX or EY birds. Other likely be a big operator like EK's ex-777 birds.
To note; in India the maximum age of aircraft leased for pax ops. should be around 15 years maximum. So based on that, it should be easier to narrow down where the birds be coming from.
https://sarinlaw.com/age-criteria-for-i ... nto-india/

I would be very surprised if they are CX birds because the B77Ws there have a 4 class cabin layout which is not what AI wants.

AI would want a 3 or 2 class cabin configuration preferably (J/Y).

Note that with 6 B788s + 3 B77Ws due to be back in service by Q1-2023, this too would help greatly in both optimizing + expanding its medium/long haul network.

I think likely EK birds, as EK 77W have the exact same business class as AI 777s, not good passenger experience though.. Flying angle flat for 13hrs+.

3 posts above says the planes at issue are 4 class, which EK doesn’t have.

vxg · Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:27 pm

Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper for them to just fix or refurbish the "poor" interiors?
How bad are they that it ends up being more economical to lease 6 airframes instead of getting some local talent with mechanical ingenuity (not hard to find in India) to just fix them?

VxG.

jbs2886 · Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:34 pm

vxg wrote:
Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper for them to just fix or refurbish the "poor" interiors?
How bad are they that it ends up being more economical to lease 6 airframes instead of getting some local talent with mechanical ingenuity (not hard to find in India) to just fix them?

VxG.

How do they continue the flights if they put those planes in through refurbishment, which will undoubtedly take some time?

Further, they're planning on getting rid of the LRs so why spend the money on refurbishment to only replace them shortly - short term leases seem better financially.

890345809 · Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:24 pm

Air India does have a lot of potential if they fix there operational issues permanently. I haven't heard of another airline having this issue happen on a such a frequent basis.

avier · Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:27 am

behramjee wrote:
I would be very surprised if they are CX birds because the B77Ws there have a 4 class cabin layout which is not what AI wants.

AI would want a 3 or 2 class cabin configuration preferably (J/Y).

For the CX ones, how difficult it be to put some Y seats in place of the W and some J in the F space, while leaving the rest of cabin untouched?

Also, regarding EY, I believe they're 10- abreast, so it may be inconsistent with rest of AI fleet.

LaunchDetected · Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:09 am

Am I the only one surprised by the "faulty seats" issue ?
What kind of defect is there to justify the leasing of 6 B777 ?

AngMoh · Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:31 am

I am wondering if they are going to get 6 of the older SQ 77W's which are still stored. SIA Engineering is servicing one AI 77W at the moment (what I heard no cabin refresh which was mentioned earlier in this forum) and would have the parts to maintain that cabin configuration. SQ and Tata group are still working together and have submitted to the CAAS that AI, SQ and Vistara collaborate on BOM/DEL-SIN flights.

Spiderguy252 · Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:36 am

AngMoh wrote:
I am wondering if they are going to get 6 of the older SQ 77W's which are still stored. SIA Engineering is servicing one AI 77W at the moment (what I heard no cabin refresh which was mentioned earlier in this forum) and would have the parts to maintain that cabin configuration. SQ and Tata group are still working together and have submitted to the CAAS that AI, SQ and Vistara collaborate on BOM/DEL-SIN flights.

I believe that aircraft is VT-ALS which is now back in service?

smi0006 · Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:01 am

LaunchDetected wrote:
Am I the only one surprised by the "faulty seats" issue ?
What kind of defect is there to justify the leasing of 6 B777 ?

I’m sure it’s not faulty seats - I’d say that’s poor journalism that’s connecting dots that don’t exist. At most they maybe taking their current 777 out of service for a full refurb and this is to cover most likely this is a capacity increase, and a reshuffle of flying/network. But I doubt that again would be due to faulty seats, and not simply updating to a competitive product.

A lease is rather expensive there isn’t simple lease costs but regulatory, training, digital, insurance and organisational costs - far more expensive than repairing/replacing or deep cleaning cabins.

It does show how bad AIs reputation and organisational management must have been to allow faulty seats to continue to a point where it snowballed into media attention and brand damage. Just block off the faulty seats, and repair them! Same with cleaning - given the cost of labour in India - a super deep clean at intervals, and regular nightly deep cleaning schedules shouldn’t be hard.

VTORD · Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:27 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
AngMoh wrote:
I am wondering if they are going to get 6 of the older SQ 77W's which are still stored. SIA Engineering is servicing one AI 77W at the moment (what I heard no cabin refresh which was mentioned earlier in this forum) and would have the parts to maintain that cabin configuration. SQ and Tata group are still working together and have submitted to the CAAS that AI, SQ and Vistara collaborate on BOM/DEL-SIN flights.

I believe that aircraft is VT-ALS which is now back in service?

Yes it was VT-ALS.

As A.Net member yashk pointed out in the Indian AV thread, AI should be sitting on the seats taken out of the 2 B77Ws that went to VIP service so that makes sense to put those in the grounded if seats are indeed (one of) the problems.

lightsaber · Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:42 pm

smi0006 wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
Am I the only one surprised by the "faulty seats" issue ?
What kind of defect is there to justify the leasing of 6 B777 ?

I’m sure it’s not faulty seats - I’d say that’s poor journalism that’s connecting dots that don’t exist. At most they maybe taking their current 777 out of service for a full refurb and this is to cover most likely this is a capacity increase, and a reshuffle of flying/network. But I doubt that again would be due to faulty seats, and not simply updating to a competitive product.

A lease is rather expensive there isn’t simple lease costs but regulatory, training, digital, insurance and organisational costs - far more expensive than repairing/replacing or deep cleaning cabins.

It does show how bad AIs reputation and organisational management must have been to allow faulty seats to continue to a point where it snowballed into media attention and brand damage. Just block off the faulty seats, and repair them! Same with cleaning - given the cost of labour in India - a super deep clean at intervals, and regular nightly deep cleaning schedules shouldn’t be hard.

Something is deeply wrong with having the parked aircraft and having to lease. It could be seats. If one part wasn't stockpiled in today's supply chains, it would be an issue.

Yes, deep cleaning should be cheap, but if you read online reviews of AI over the years, they weren't doing it. I have work experience on an ex-AI aircraft that was hauling around literally tons of extra caked on food (we needed a cheap demo, non-flying airframe). So it is very easy to believe they didn't buy enough of some part for seats and are now discovering supply chain issues.

One hopes AI can be reformed and quickly. While an interior refresh is required, it is one step among many to turn around the airline.

Lightsaber

yashk · Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:29 pm

lightsaber wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
Am I the only one surprised by the "faulty seats" issue ?
What kind of defect is there to justify the leasing of 6 B777 ?

I’m sure it’s not faulty seats - I’d say that’s poor journalism that’s connecting dots that don’t exist. At most they maybe taking their current 777 out of service for a full refurb and this is to cover most likely this is a capacity increase, and a reshuffle of flying/network. But I doubt that again would be due to faulty seats, and not simply updating to a competitive product.

A lease is rather expensive there isn’t simple lease costs but regulatory, training, digital, insurance and organisational costs - far more expensive than repairing/replacing or deep cleaning cabins.

It does show how bad AIs reputation and organisational management must have been to allow faulty seats to continue to a point where it snowballed into media attention and brand damage. Just block off the faulty seats, and repair them! Same with cleaning - given the cost of labour in India - a super deep clean at intervals, and regular nightly deep cleaning schedules shouldn’t be hard.

Something is deeply wrong with having the parked aircraft and having to lease. It could be seats. If one part wasn't stockpiled in today's supply chains, it would be an issue.

Yes, deep cleaning should be cheap, but if you read online reviews of AI over the years, they weren't doing it. I have work experience on an ex-AI aircraft that was hauling around literally tons of extra caked on food (we needed a cheap demo, non-flying airframe). So it is very easy to believe they didn't buy enough of some part for seats and are now discovering supply chain issues.

One hopes AI can be reformed and quickly. While an interior refresh is required, it is one step among many to turn around the airline.

Lightsaber

This article: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 407118.cms states that Air India is working with Boeing to get 10 grounded wide body aircraft back in service and eta is early 2023. I wonder why is it taking over a year to source parts to get the planes ready? AI plans on using both the currently grounded planes and the leased ones and the only way to get extra lift asap is to lease so i am not sure how is this deeply wrong since they have no other choice.

Polot · Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:32 pm

yashk wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
smi0006 wrote:

I’m sure it’s not faulty seats - I’d say that’s poor journalism that’s connecting dots that don’t exist. At most they maybe taking their current 777 out of service for a full refurb and this is to cover most likely this is a capacity increase, and a reshuffle of flying/network. But I doubt that again would be due to faulty seats, and not simply updating to a competitive product.

A lease is rather expensive there isn’t simple lease costs but regulatory, training, digital, insurance and organisational costs - far more expensive than repairing/replacing or deep cleaning cabins.

It does show how bad AIs reputation and organisational management must have been to allow faulty seats to continue to a point where it snowballed into media attention and brand damage. Just block off the faulty seats, and repair them! Same with cleaning - given the cost of labour in India - a super deep clean at intervals, and regular nightly deep cleaning schedules shouldn’t be hard.

Something is deeply wrong with having the parked aircraft and having to lease. It could be seats. If one part wasn't stockpiled in today's supply chains, it would be an issue.

Yes, deep cleaning should be cheap, but if you read online reviews of AI over the years, they weren't doing it. I have work experience on an ex-AI aircraft that was hauling around literally tons of extra caked on food (we needed a cheap demo, non-flying airframe). So it is very easy to believe they didn't buy enough of some part for seats and are now discovering supply chain issues.

One hopes AI can be reformed and quickly. While an interior refresh is required, it is one step among many to turn around the airline.

Lightsaber

This article: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 407118.cms states that Air India is working with Boeing to get 10 grounded wide body aircraft back in service and eta is early 2023. I wonder why is it taking over a year to source parts to get the planes ready? AI plans on using both the currently grounded planes and the leased ones and the only way to get extra lift asap is to lease so i am not sure how is this deeply wrong since they have no other choice.

The aviation industry just like basically everyone else is facing supply chain issues. If AI did not properly plan with replacement parts it’s entirely possible to take that long to get new ones.

avier · Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:54 am

Polot wrote:
The aviation industry just like basically everyone else is facing supply chain issues. If AI did not properly plan with replacement parts it’s entirely possible to take that long to get new ones.

There was no way they could plan anything in advance, as they were going through privatisation and everything was stalled - getting new planes, employees, MX parts/repairs etc. The new owners were left to figure what they'd do with the airline and its resources.
With global supply chain issues, it seems about right they'd get their grounded planes flying, in the said time frame of next year.

Also, they've put out a tender to sell their 3 77L's, which would need an immediate one to one replacement. So their need for leasing some aircraft isn't something odd.

lightsaber · Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:02 pm

Polot wrote:
yashk wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Something is deeply wrong with having the parked aircraft and having to lease. It could be seats. If one part wasn't stockpiled in today's supply chains, it would be an issue.

Yes, deep cleaning should be cheap, but if you read online reviews of AI over the years, they weren't doing it. I have work experience on an ex-AI aircraft that was hauling around literally tons of extra caked on food (we needed a cheap demo, non-flying airframe). So it is very easy to believe they didn't buy enough of some part for seats and are now discovering supply chain issues.

One hopes AI can be reformed and quickly. While an interior refresh is required, it is one step among many to turn around the airline.

Lightsaber

This article: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 407118.cms states that Air India is working with Boeing to get 10 grounded wide body aircraft back in service and eta is early 2023. I wonder why is it taking over a year to source parts to get the planes ready? AI plans on using both the currently grounded planes and the leased ones and the only way to get extra lift asap is to lease so i am not sure how is this deeply wrong since they have no other choice.

The aviation industry just like basically everyone else is facing supply chain issues. If AI did not properly plan with replacement parts it’s entirely possible to take that long to get new ones.

Different airlines had different skill planning ahead "When the tide goes out, it exposes who was skinny-dipping." (I believe Warren Buffett said that.)

An easy way to look better financially is to stop buying spare parts.

However, the supply chain is improving fast. Now commercial aviation will suffer from the production ramp up straining vendors, but it isn't nearly as bad as it was 3 months ago, judging by how many purchase orders I have being fulfilled early while 3 months ago, the typical PO was fulfilled 2 months late... In fact, I have parts coming in for October due dates! :faint:

Not all POs by any means, but for the first time in 2022, nothing is trending late; this change happened about a month ago.

And since we went back to inventorying parts... (like everyone else) I think AI will be able to recover soon.

Lightsaber

A late edit, a link quantifying the improvement in the supply chain:
https://www.axios.com/2022/08/08/supply ... es-economy

vhtje · Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:24 pm

How is leasing new aircraft cheaper and quicker than refurbishing existing aircraft?

flee · Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:38 pm

vhtje wrote:
How is leasing new aircraft cheaper and quicker than refurbishing existing aircraft?

It is a short term thing before they receive brand new aircraft. Refurbishing may not generate enough ROI.

airboss787 · Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:19 pm

vhtje wrote:
How is leasing new aircraft cheaper and quicker than refurbishing existing aircraft?

From what I have heard, they are doing both. Refurbishing the grounded fleet and adding more as well. For expansion.

oceanvikram · Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:36 pm

smi0006 wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
Am I the only one surprised by the "faulty seats" issue ?
What kind of defect is there to justify the leasing of 6 B777 ?

I’m sure it’s not faulty seats - I’d say that’s poor journalism that’s connecting dots that don’t exist. At most they maybe taking their current 777 out of service for a full refurb and this is to cover most likely this is a capacity increase, and a reshuffle of flying/network. But I doubt that again would be due to faulty seats, and not simply updating to a competitive product.

A lease is rather expensive there isn’t simple lease costs but regulatory, training, digital, insurance and organisational costs - far more expensive than repairing/replacing or deep cleaning cabins.

I agree it’s click bait journalism:
[url]https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/air-india-to-lease-six-aircraft-as-poor-interiors-delay-flights-to-north-america-101659931113369.html[url]

Quote:
The aircraft will be leased for two years and be used for flight operations within three months. “The aircraft are set to arrive by October and will be operated in addition to the current aircraft...” the official said.

Title thread should be changed to AI leasing 6 x 777s.

yashk · Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:29 pm

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 715370.cms

Air India plans on taking Delta's 6 777-200 on lease and the planes will arrive by October

behramjee · Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:42 pm

yashk wrote:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/tata-group-plans-to-lease-aircraft-to-scale-up-air-india-air-india-express/articleshow/93715370.cms

Air India plans on taking Delta's 6 777-200 on lease and the planes will arrive by October

so these are 6 B772LRs as its supposed to fly from South India to USA nonstop.

Polot · Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:50 pm

I’m guessing they still have DL’s basically brand new cabins in them. Comfortable ride.

jbs2886 · Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:35 pm

behramjee wrote:
yashk wrote:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/tata-group-plans-to-lease-aircraft-to-scale-up-air-india-air-india-express/articleshow/93715370.cms

Air India plans on taking Delta's 6 777-200 on lease and the planes will arrive by October

so these are 6 B772LRs as its supposed to fly from South India to USA nonstop.

I would think its the LRs based on distances discussed, but I thought those were all purchased by Mammoth. This article says leasing from Delta, which would mean the ERs that don't have buyers. The article could be wrong and these are not leased directly from Delta.

The bigger news to me here is Air India Express getting A320neos.

890345809 · Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:38 pm

With Air India increasing its fleet (and bringing back planes to service), I wonder how soon new North American routes will take.

Air India cut service to MAD, VIE, MXP, FCO, CPH, and ARN during the pandemic. Any chances of those flights returning or new destinations being launched perhaps?

airboss787 · Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:22 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
yashk wrote:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/tata-group-plans-to-lease-aircraft-to-scale-up-air-india-air-india-express/articleshow/93715370.cms

Air India plans on taking Delta's 6 777-200 on lease and the planes will arrive by October

so these are 6 B772LRs as its supposed to fly from South India to USA nonstop.

I would think its the LRs based on distances discussed, but I thought those were all purchased by Mammoth. This article says leasing from Delta, which would mean the ERs that don't have buyers. The article could be wrong and these are not leased directly from Delta.

The bigger news to me here is Air India Express getting A320neos.

If you reread the article, it says the NEOs are for AI and AIX will get Vistara's 737s (ex-9W). So AIX will remain a 737 operator at least for now.

The ERs are also not owned by DL anymore. So leasing from Delta is wrong regardless of which variant they go for. But the media isn't known for accuracy anyway, so we can give them a break. :roll:

One of the reasons I hope it is the LRs is because they are younger than the ERs and so just have more life in them. The ERs are closer to 25 years old and may not be worth it. I will believe it when I see them. Plus, with DLs RR engines, I am not sure they are capable of the India-US nonstops unlike UAs with the GEs.

FlyHPN · Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:53 pm

airboss787 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
behramjee wrote:

so these are 6 B772LRs as its supposed to fly from South India to USA nonstop.

I would think its the LRs based on distances discussed, but I thought those were all purchased by Mammoth. This article says leasing from Delta, which would mean the ERs that don't have buyers. The article could be wrong and these are not leased directly from Delta.

The bigger news to me here is Air India Express getting A320neos.

If you reread the article, it says the NEOs are for AI and AIX will get Vistara's 737s (ex-9W). So AIX will remain a 737 operator at least for now.

The ERs are also not owned by DL anymore. So leasing from Delta is wrong regardless of which variant they go for. But the media isn't known for accuracy anyway, so we can give them a break. One of the reasons I hope it is the LRs is because they are younger than the ERs and so just have more life in them. The ERs are closer to 25 years old and may not be worth it. I will believe it when I see them. Plus, with DLs RR engines, I am not sure they are capable of the India-US nonstops unlike UAs with the GEs.

The LRs would make sense when considering these would be short term lift until AI can place their strategic WB order and have them delivered, whenever that may be. Mammoth recently said they’re not expecting FAA design approval until next year and STC issued until 2024, so to try and get some money out of these frames while they’d otherwise be sitting around seems logical.

https://www.aircargonews.net/services/f ... conversion

C777ER · Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:15 pm

Will this help AI open new US routes?

Polot · Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:32 pm

C777ER wrote:
Will this help AI open new US routes?

Considering this lease is allegedly due to the poor state of the cabins of the current fleet, and that they have offered their current 77Ls for sale, this is likely to maintain current operations until they can get enough A350s on property ready for US ops.

behramjee · Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:34 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
yashk wrote:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/tata-group-plans-to-lease-aircraft-to-scale-up-air-india-air-india-express/articleshow/93715370.cms

Air India plans on taking Delta's 6 777-200 on lease and the planes will arrive by October

so these are 6 B772LRs as its supposed to fly from South India to USA nonstop.

I would think its the LRs based on distances discussed, but I thought those were all purchased by Mammoth. This article says leasing from Delta, which would mean the ERs that don't have buyers. The article could be wrong and these are not leased directly from Delta.

The bigger news to me here is Air India Express getting A320neos.

B772ER with AI's 2 piece baggage policy wont be able to fly from India to USA nonstop without a payload limitation hence I would be really surprised if it indeed ended up being the -200ERs. Note that this lease deal is for 2 years only so maybe Mammoth postponed the retro fit of these 6 birds by two years?

jbs2886 · Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:46 pm

behramjee wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
behramjee wrote:

so these are 6 B772LRs as its supposed to fly from South India to USA nonstop.

I would think its the LRs based on distances discussed, but I thought those were all purchased by Mammoth. This article says leasing from Delta, which would mean the ERs that don't have buyers. The article could be wrong and these are not leased directly from Delta.

The bigger news to me here is Air India Express getting A320neos.

B772ER with AI's 2 piece baggage policy wont be able to fly from India to USA nonstop without a payload limitation hence I would be really surprised if it indeed ended up being the -200ERs. Note that this lease deal is for 2 years only so maybe Mammoth postponed the retro fit of these 6 birds by two years?

I'd agree that seems most likely (that Mammoth is leasing these for 2 years).

VTORD · Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:29 am

behramjee wrote:

B772ER with AI's 2 piece baggage policy wont be able to fly from India to USA nonstop without a payload limitation hence I would be really surprised if it indeed ended up being the -200ERs. Note that this lease deal is for 2 years only so maybe Mammoth postponed the retro fit of these 6 birds by two years?

What I don't understand is if these are to be LRs, why would AI open a tender to sell their owned 3xLRs and then lease 6? Their owned LRs are probably 12 years old. I think these might be ERs which could take over their LHR routes and leave the 77Ws available for the North America routes.

avier · Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:33 am

I read an article which stated that DL retired their 777's (both LR and ER) with newly refurbished interiors. So could AI use those new interiors and seats of DL? Or would they be DL IP rights, so be stripped off to remove DL trademark?

avier · Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:38 am

VTORD wrote:
behramjee wrote:

B772ER with AI's 2 piece baggage policy wont be able to fly from India to USA nonstop without a payload limitation hence I would be really surprised if it indeed ended up being the -200ERs. Note that this lease deal is for 2 years only so maybe Mammoth postponed the retro fit of these 6 birds by two years?

What I don't understand is if these are to be LRs, why would AI open a tender to sell their owned 3xLRs and then lease 6? Their owned LRs are probably 12 years old. I think these might be ERs which could take over their LHR routes and leave the 77Ws available for the North America routes.

The cost of refurbishing their 77L would be too high, that to if they plan to keep them for just another year or so. They must have got a great deal with well kept interiors in these new leased birds.
Regarding their LHR ops, it's all on 788's now. So those 772ER would make no sense in freeing up any 77W's, as they are all used for NA ops already.

Qantas94Heavy · Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:52 am

avier wrote:
For the CX ones, how difficult it be to put some Y seats in place of the W and some J in the F space, while leaving the rest of cabin untouched?

Also, regarding EY, I believe they're 10- abreast, so it may be inconsistent with rest of AI fleet.

According to their website CX has 3 class (J/W/Y) 77Ws as well: https://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_HK/ ... 7/300.html (77K)
CX is also 10 abreast on their 777s; they had retrofitted the fleet a few years back.

Given it's a temporary lease I doubt 9 or 10 abreast Y will be a big issue, especially compared to the tired broken interiors on their own aircraft.

killswitch13 · Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:07 am

The 8 Delta B777-200ER's are twenty plus years old and do not fit the criteria laid down by the DGCA for leasing an aircraft. Unless Mammoth which acquired the remaining 10 -200LR's for cargo conversion have changed their mind, this does not add up.

behramjee · Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:23 am

killswitch13 wrote:
The 8 Delta B777-200ER's are twenty plus years old and do not fit the criteria laid down by the DGCA for leasing an aircraft. Unless Mammoth which acquired the remaining 10 -200LR's for cargo conversion have changed their mind, this does not add up.

Correct and in comparison, DL's B772LRs were made between 2008-2010. The cabin layout is 28J + 48W + 212Y so 288 seats in total.

The last 6 B77Ls of DL were delivered in 2009 (4) and 2010 (2) respectively.

Source: https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Del ... d-b777.htm

Polot · Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:21 am

avier wrote:
I read an article which stated that DL retired their 777's (both LR and ER) with newly refurbished interiors. So could AI use those new interiors and seats of DL? Or would they be DL IP rights, so be stripped off to remove DL trademark?

Obviously AI wouldn’t be able to use DL trademarks, but simple new seat/headrest covers and removing any branding from bulkhead eliminates that issue. DL doesn’t have exclusive rights to the seats, and I believe all were sold with cabins intact (since DL had no use for them as they don’t fit in any of their other fleet).

DL777200LR · Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:33 am

killswitch13 wrote:
The 8 Delta B777-200ER's are twenty plus years old and do not fit the criteria laid down by the DGCA for leasing an aircraft. Unless Mammoth which acquired the remaining 10 -200LR's for cargo conversion have changed their mind, this does not add up.

The last ER built for delta is now flying the Arizona Cardinals. The other 7 have been sold and the 3 remaining in storage will be departing soon. I’m assuming the 6 to AI and the last to someone else.

manny · Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:49 pm

So if they are planning to absorb these new frame by October, when will they realistically be announcing the new routes ?

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