Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
3D101CA
Topic Author
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:50 am

Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:13 am

I have always found it kind of strange how there are daytime flights from North America to Europe (only to LHR though). BA/VS have early morning departures from JFK that arrive at night in LHR. Even AC has daytime YYZ-LHR as well.

Otherwise, you have AA and UA operating JFK/EWR-LHR daytime departures, UA flying IAD-LHR daytime, along with AA from ORD-LHR daytime.

Why does only LHR have these daytime North America flight arrivals? I wonder if any other major city in Europe such as AMS, CDG, FRA for example would have carriers flying daytime flights.
Last edited by 3D101CA on Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 3191
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:20 am

JFK-CDG has had daytime flights before.

Jeremy
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6316
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:27 am

I dunno but I can’t stand flying overnight.
 
ShamrockBoi330
Posts: 381
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:28 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:29 am

EI had EWR - DUB for 2 summers i think pre-covid i think
 
B747forever
Posts: 13976
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:31 am

32andBelow wrote:
I dunno but I can’t stand flying overnight.


Especially from US East Coast to Western Europe. Some of those overnight flights are barley 6 hours, which means you can at most get 3-4 hours of sleep before facing a full day at your destination.
 
Planes4you
Posts: 389
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:35 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:33 am

Because of Connections
 
USAirALB
Posts: 3161
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:46 am

The eastbound transatlantic daylight flight is quite possibly the most civilized way to travel to Europe IMO.

Unfortunately, eastbound flights have to depart North America early enough to permit connections in Heathrow, and to ensure the flight arrives well ahead of Heathrow's curfew. This basically precludes any departure past 1045am (AA's JFK departure is the latest at 10:40am). Even then, the connections available at Heathrow are few and far (if any) between that late in the evening.

The early departure time necessary for these flights restricts them to the Northeast/Midwest. Also, because these flights depart the US quite early, connections at their US departure point usually aren't possible and the flights tend to rely on O/D traffic between that departure point and London only.

For the most part, these flights tend to be lower-yielding. Business travelers prefer the overnight flights so they don't lose a day of productivity. They are also somewhat of a waste of aircraft for airlines, as the planes either have to remain overnight in London, or remain overnight at their US departure point(or UK carriers), versus compared to a standard transatlantic schedule, where a plane can just fly back/forth between North America and Europe consistently without remaining overnight anywhere.

As such, eastbound daylight flights are restricted to five airports that have consistently high levels of traffic to London:

-JFK: 1 daylight flight each on AA, BA, VS
-Dulles: 1 daylight flight on UA
-Newark: 1 daylight flight each on BA and UA
-Boston: 1 daylight flight on BA
-Chicago: 1 daylight flight on AA (I think it is seasonal)

The schedule has been drastically reduced over the years. BA used to offer their own Dulles daylight flight, VS used to offer one from Boston, DL used to offer one from JFK to London, as did AC from YYZ. IIRC, UA may have operated an ORD-LHR daylight flight before, and I seem to recall them running one from JFK back in the day. US also ran PHL-LHR daylight for a season after the AA merger was announced with a 752.

Years back, Air France attempted a JFK-Paris daylight flight that failed pretty quickly. I could be imagining things, but I vaguely recall LH doing a JFK-FRA daylight flight briefly as well.
 
User avatar
spinkid
Posts: 1978
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:59 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:58 am

SESGDL wrote:
JFK-CDG has had daytime flights before.

Jeremy


I was gonna say, because some people prefer to fly during the day. It is mostly P2P travel as you get off the plane at night and your body feels tired, it might be an early bedtime for some but at least you can get into your hotel room. Or go home as the case may be.

Also, it shortens the connection time on a connecting overnight flight. I believe a lot of African Connections would be timed well to connect, Russian destinations as well when they where flying.
 
Ionosphere
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:46 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:04 am

TWA flew a JFK-CDG daytime flight in the '90's I think

It's so nice getting to Europe at night and not arriving exhausted. I flew the AA daytime BOS-LHR in 2006 on the 772 and BA's in 2003
 
Ellofiend
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:13 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:18 am

Why is it so uncommon? I hate travelling SYD-HKG/SIN/BKK/DXB/AUH/DOH-LHR overnight and then propping my eyes open with matchsticks for the full day in London. I suppose lie-flats don't sell as well during the day as at night .
 
Airplanebrain
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:32 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:29 am

I flew the Concorde on a day flight from JFK to Paris on Air France in 2000. It left JFK around mid-morning. For some reason, the flight left me unusually jet-lagged at the time.
 
aviatorcraig
Posts: 607
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:14 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:36 am

Bring back Concorde!
 
IADFCO
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:38 am

Personally, if I can't do IAD-FCO nonstop, it would be fantastic to be able to do it during the day. Unfortunately the last LHR-FCO flight always departs before IAD-LHR arrives, so it would require spending the night at LHR. I don't know how my body would react, jet lag-wise. I know that with the usual night flight (nonstop or one-stop) I'm a zombie all day.
 
Chemist
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:19 am

The same reason there are day flights from US west coast to east coast. If no connection, don't have to try and sleep on a plane. Go to bed when you get to the destination.
 
N101TV
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:09 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:11 am

I'm booked on the AC dayflight YYZ-LHR next year, can't wait to enjoy it! I was booked 1st Class NYC-LON with BA before US COVID travel restrictions were lifted but had to amend it sadly. I flew overnight in First instead which was the best sleep I've ever had, albeit for 4 hours
 
User avatar
TK787
Posts: 5027
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:43 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:18 am

TK has JFK-IST that leaves around noon, which get me to Istanbul around 5-6am.
I really like this flight because getting to JFK is easy, no traffic, JFK has less traffic around noon time.
Same situation at IST, even though the airport is always busy, getting to the city is a lot easier and after a quick nap I am ready for an afternoon meeting.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:05 am

TK787 wrote:
TK has JFK-IST that leaves around noon, which get me to Istanbul around 5-6am.
I really like this flight because getting to JFK is easy, no traffic, JFK has less traffic around noon time.
Same situation at IST, even though the airport is always busy, getting to the city is a lot easier and after a quick nap I am ready for an afternoon meeting.


What you described is an overnight flight, not daytime flight.

AA has 2 day time flight to London (JFK and ORD), both are better suited for early morning departure from LHR. For instance, one aircraft turn around time is about 2 hours 30 mins. For 7:50am departure from LHR, AA has to schedule arrival at 5:30am the latest. And that arriving slots are hard to get. If the departure is 7:30am, it would be impossible.

So airlines like AA and UA that has very early departure from LHR, the only way is to have a day time fright from US to LHR and leave the aircraft overnight.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 3346
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:13 am

IIRC AF tried a morning JFK-CDG flight twice and both were suspended very quickly. The last time the flight was also aimed at African connection traffic. Because of time zone differences (remember Europe is an extra hour ahead of UK) most morning transatlantic flights don't work- you need to depart the East Coast too early. NYC-LON morning flights survive purely on very high O&D traffic although they're the least popular fights.
 
eicvd
Posts: 1499
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:11 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:23 am

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
EI had EWR - DUB for 2 summers i think pre-covid i think

That was overnight, they did have a JFK-DUB daytime flight, Norwegian had a SWF-DUB daytime flight too.
 
etchasketch
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:51 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:39 am

I was a regular commuter BOS-LHR and a day flight on Sunday was the way to go to actually have a productive work week. Otherwise the night flights can leave too early to fall asleep (7pm), arriving on no sleep (6 hr flight) and expected to report to the office.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 5225
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:48 am

Sorry but it's not about connections, quite the contrary. The daytime flight exists on London terminating traffic in the most part, it's THE most civilised way to fly Eastbound transatlantic if you're not time critical. If you have to connect beyond LHR, the daytime flight isn't the one for you.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 13657
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:18 am

Ellofiend wrote:
Why is it so uncommon? I hate travelling SYD-HKG/SIN/BKK/DXB/AUH/DOH-LHR overnight and then propping my eyes open with matchsticks for the full day in London. I suppose lie-flats don't sell as well during the day as at night .

Because it poor for connections and unpopular with business traffic.

With day flight you lose an entire work day from traveling. With the overnight flight you can work some during the day, head to the airport late afternoon/ evening, fly overnight, and arrive in the morning at your destination and work some there that day. It absolutely sucks, especially if you are not flying business class, but it maximizes worker productivity.

Daylight flights are heavily reliant on O&D and most popular with leisure pax. Only London and sometimes Paris can really fill those flights from the US, as obviously those are the two biggest O&D markets in Europe from the US.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 2242
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:18 pm

One VERY unusual daylight flight in the 1970s was Seaboard World JFK-FRA, using the bubble of their 747-200Fs. Passengers checked in at the AA terminal, and were bussed to the cargo terminal.

This flight was pretty innovative, because it used space in the otherwise empty upper deck; the only expense was one flight attendant, food and beverages, and the weight of the seats and passengers. Unfortunately, the service ended when Flying Tiger took over Seaboard.
 
User avatar
BA744PHX
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:42 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:51 pm

Daytime flights from the East Coast are more ideal than overnight flights, NYC/BOS are barely 6-7 hours from DUB/LHR, take into consideration dinner/breakfast meal service, you are barely going to sleep 4 hours if that.

I prefer the morning UA EWR-LHR flight, you get into LHR around 8PMish, into your hotel around 10PM, get a proper full nights rest and straight to work the following morning. The over night flights just don't make much sense, you land anywhere from 06:00AM-12:00PM with lack of sleep then you have to wait for your hotel check-in from 03:00PM onwards.

I wish there were more European flights that had morning departures
 
slinky09
Posts: 666
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:03 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:01 pm

Why? Because some passengers find it convenient, because it means that aircraft don't sit on the ground in the US for 24hrs (say if they arrive late in the evening) and most of all because LHR has enough O&D traffic to make it workable without the need for mass onward connections. I have taken the VS day time flight many times, I find it more comfortable, better on the body and arriving home to relax and sleep much better to pick up productivity the next day. Other cities don't have the O&D volume Heathrow has, I guess even Paris ...
 
skipness1E
Posts: 5225
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:01 pm

Polot wrote:
Ellofiend wrote:
Why is it so uncommon? I hate travelling SYD-HKG/SIN/BKK/DXB/AUH/DOH-LHR overnight and then propping my eyes open with matchsticks for the full day in London. I suppose lie-flats don't sell as well during the day as at night .

Because it poor for connections and unpopular with business traffic.
With day flight you lose an entire work day from traveling.

This hasn't been true since the dawn of inflight WiFi and it is perfectly possible to work offline on board. Loads of time to complete the deck or crunch the numbers IMHO. The connections part is true, but the sheer size of the London P2P market is still enough to carry it.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 13657
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:19 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Polot wrote:
Ellofiend wrote:
Why is it so uncommon? I hate travelling SYD-HKG/SIN/BKK/DXB/AUH/DOH-LHR overnight and then propping my eyes open with matchsticks for the full day in London. I suppose lie-flats don't sell as well during the day as at night .

Because it poor for connections and unpopular with business traffic.
With day flight you lose an entire work day from traveling.

This hasn't been true since the dawn of inflight WiFi and it is perfectly possible to work offline on board. Loads of time to complete the deck or crunch the numbers IMHO. The connections part is true, but the sheer size of the London P2P market is still enough to carry it.

Just because you can work on the aircraft doesn’t mean it is ideal and that people like to work on the aircraft (and businesses know this). This is especially true if sensitive information is involved.
Last edited by Polot on Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11447
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:20 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
I wish there were more European flights that had morning departures


Me, too. Flights to the continent add the extra hour of time change plus the extra flight duration and this just kills it. Depatures need to be too early (travelers would have to leave their homes at 3AM to head to JFK) or they would be getting to their hotels in MAD/FCO/ZRH etc. after midnight.

The OP's sentiment also gets expressed with some U.S. to Asia travel, showing disdain that anyone would want to leave the U.S. in the day to arrive in the evening +1, versus leaving late at night to arrive morning +2 and go to work. (Because I want to get a good night's sleep --which I can't get on a plane-- and a shower and change of clothes before I start a day of work.) Same with daytime travel to Europe.
 
samuelx88
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:16 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:30 pm

Air Saint-Pierre also sells a daytime transatlantic flight from FSP to CDG (10h30 - 20h05) during the summer. It is operated by ASL Airlines on a 737-700.

https://onemileatatime.com/news/air-saint-pierre/
 
DFW17L
Posts: 402
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:53 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:48 pm

NATS-OTS defines the times are direction for flights crossing the North Atlantic.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5573
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:50 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
TWA flew a JFK-CDG daytime flight in the '90's I think

It's so nice getting to Europe at night and not arriving exhausted. I flew the AA daytime BOS-LHR in 2006 on the 772 and BA's in 2003


TWA did, for a brief time, and AF also had a daylight service for a period of time, though I don't remember when exactly, on JFK-CDG.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5573
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:53 pm

3D101CA wrote:
I have always found it kind of strange how there are daytime flights from North America to Europe (only to LHR though). BA/VS have early morning departures from JFK that arrive at night in LHR. Even AC has daytime YYZ-LHR as well.

Otherwise, you have AA and UA operating JFK/EWR-LHR daytime departures, UA flying IAD-LHR daytime, along with AA from ORD-LHR daytime.

Why does only LHR have these daytime North America flight arrivals? I wonder if any other major city in Europe such as AMS, CDG, FRA for example would have carriers flying daytime flights.


Daytime flights to Europe from the US only work generally to London as it is a major O&D station (from the US East Coast + ORD ). A few airlines have tried other markets, like CDG, in the past, but there are few if any meaningful connecting opportunities and to make that worthwhile, the flights would have to depart early in the US East Coast morning. Daytime flights to London in particular are a pleasant way to travel there, given that it is often a short overnight flight from places like JFK/EWR and IAD. Doubt FRA, AMS or even CDG again will see that type of service in the future. It also requires a foreign flag carrier frame to park at at US airport overnight, which may or may not add operational cost/expenses to the route and limit its profitability.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3666
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:15 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Sorry but it's not about connections, quite the contrary. The daytime flight exists on London terminating traffic in the most part, it's THE most civilised way to fly Eastbound transatlantic if you're not time critical. If you have to connect beyond LHR, the daytime flight isn't the one for you.

They aren't talking about connecting in LHR, but connecting in the US onwards to LHR.
 
bennett123
Posts: 11316
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:21 pm

There are probably restrictions on landing times at the European end.

People in London don't want streams of flights arriving in the early hours.
 
User avatar
BWIAirport
Posts: 1256
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:29 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:38 pm

There are advantages and disadvantages to both daytime and redeye eastbound transatlantic flights:
Redeye
Pros:
Maximize connection opportunities. You have all day to connect into your departure airport, and/or you arrive in Europe before most short-haul flights leave
You don't waste a day in the air, and you can have a full day at both your origin and destination while sacrificing a night of sleep. That works for some people, not all.
Cons:
The last "pro" is also a con. You basically have to go two full days with at most a 4-hour nap in between. And if you don't sleep on planes, you're out of luck.
Assuming your body clock is adjusted to your origin time zone, by the time you're deplaned and through customs your body clock probably has between 3-5am and you are absolutely wiped out. Again, some people can handle this better than others.

Daytime
Pros:
You can get a full nights sleep in a real bed on both ends of the flight. When you land, it'll be probably 10pm before you're out of the airport, and you can go right to bed and sleep off as much jet lag as possible.
Cons:
No real connection opportunities on either end because of the early departure and late arrival. These flights are catered almost exclusively to O&D passengers, which is why they only work in massive markets such as NYC-LON.
You "waste" a full day in the air. This is probably less of a big deal for a vacationing family and a bigger deal for those flying for business. But you can write off your travel day entirely.

I'm sure I missed some points but there's good reason for both to exist.
 
User avatar
AVLAirlineFreq
Posts: 1693
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:31 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:41 pm

Three? I wish there were a hundred.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10873
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:44 pm

3D101CA wrote:
Why does only LHR have these daytime North America flight arrivals? I wonder if any other major city in Europe such as AMS, CDG, FRA for example would have carriers flying daytime flights.

Because they are awesome! :D
Seriously. for me personally there is no better way to fly TATL than to take the daytime flight.
Polot wrote:
Because it poor for connections and unpopular with business traffic.

This is a myth, IMO. Less demand yes, unpopular no. If it was unpopular for business traffic the fares would be lower and yet, they're not. A daytime flight also has very poor aircraft utilization as the airplane needs to RON in the U.S. and a parked plane doesn't make money. In order for a daytime flight to be successful it has to make good money and you can't make good money without strong business traffic, especially when the airplane is parked for 8 hours or more. Lack of connections and a curfew is likely the main reason why there are fewer flights.

London has the advantage of a large, strong O&D market and a timezone that is 1 hour early than most continental Europe. I've taken this flight a few times and connected in LHR with an overnight at an airport hotel. I arrive at my destination just as early as I would if I had taken the overnight but I'm fresh as a cucumber and never have jetlag to deal with. Once someone experiences the daytime flight they don't usually want to fly any other way.
AF used to offer a daytime flight too and they offered late night connections to Asia and Africa. Unfortunately the ME3+TK ate away that traffic.
 
ChasChandler
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 11:00 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:48 pm

I took the family on an overnight to LHR and it was miserable for everyone. Everyone was up all day and then caught the evening flight to LHR. Nobody could sleep and when we landed it was very early the next day. You can't check into your hotel yet so we walked around all day. The whole family was dragging by mid afternoon. Give me early morning departures any day of the week.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 5225
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:52 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Sorry but it's not about connections, quite the contrary. The daytime flight exists on London terminating traffic in the most part, it's THE most civilised way to fly Eastbound transatlantic if you're not time critical. If you have to connect beyond LHR, the daytime flight isn't the one for you.

They aren't talking about connecting in LHR, but connecting in the US onwards to LHR.

So the argument works both ways, Toronto, New York and Washington are all strong enough at the North American end to make the flight work well enough without a need for feed to fill a London bound aeroplane at a profitable price point.
 
alan3
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:34 pm

I know most of the comments are related to East Coast, and I agree East Coast daytime flights can be good because you arrive just in time for bed

But just to give a comparison I just took a West Coast to Germany flight that left around midday and arrived at around 9pm West Coast time but early morning Germany time.

It was the worst of all worlds: the departure day (pre-flight) was pretty much wasted; it was a daytime flight so we didn't sleep; and we arrived just at bedtime West Coast time but morning Europe time, which meant for a strange arrival day where you had a full day to fill on jetlagged no sleep. West Coast to Europe flight should NOT leave before late afternoon at the earliest IMO!
 
ScottB
Posts: 7871
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:17 pm

etchasketch wrote:
I was a regular commuter BOS-LHR and a day flight on Sunday was the way to go to actually have a productive work week. Otherwise the night flights can leave too early to fall asleep (7pm), arriving on no sleep (6 hr flight) and expected to report to the office.


This may well be true, but you also sacrificed one of your weekend days for the benefit of your employer. Part of a second as well considering that you really can't stay out too late on Saturday if you're going to make that morning BOS-LHR departure on Sunday.

alan3 wrote:
But just to give a comparison I just took a West Coast to Germany flight that left around midday and arrived at around 9pm West Coast time but early morning Germany time.

It was the worst of all worlds: the departure day (pre-flight) was pretty much wasted; it was a daytime flight so we didn't sleep; and we arrived just at bedtime West Coast time but morning Europe time, which meant for a strange arrival day where you had a full day to fill on jetlagged no sleep. West Coast to Europe flight should NOT leave before late afternoon at the earliest IMO!


But for people who might need to connect at FRA or MUC, the morning arrival is optimal because it allows access to onward connecting flights.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 3346
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:21 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
One VERY unusual daylight flight in the 1970s was Seaboard World JFK-FRA, using the bubble of their 747-200Fs. Passengers checked in at the AA terminal, and were bussed to the cargo terminal.

This flight was pretty innovative, because it used space in the otherwise empty upper deck; the only expense was one flight attendant, food and beverages, and the weight of the seats and passengers. Unfortunately, the service ended when Flying Tiger took over Seaboard.

And who exactly were these pax- airline/interline staff? S.W. was a cargo airline- they didn't have pax authority. Also around this time the bubble was only just being allowed to be certified to carry pax instead of a lounge.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 9100
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:00 am

A lot of talk of connections but London is one of the biggest O&D destinations in the world, it’s not Charlotte or Abu Dhabi. That said these flights are great if you’re flying from the west coast of the Americas, take a red eye out of California into New York at dawn (or from BC to YYZ) and take the daytripper to arrive in London at bedtime. Have done that several times and it’s a sure fire way to cover nine times zones (and eastbound which is usually particularly horrendous), and experience little to no jetlag.

Concorde was always daylight eastbound, the only red eye it ever operated was SQ/BA300 BAH 2235 SIN 0710+1. (Full Singapore schedule was LHR 1530 BAH 2135, BAH to SIN as above, SIN 1130 BAH 1055, BAH 1145 LHR 1405.)

WA707atMSP wrote:
One VERY unusual daylight flight in the 1970s was Seaboard World JFK-FRA, using the bubble of their 747-200Fs. Passengers checked in at the AA terminal, and were bussed to the cargo terminal.

This flight was pretty innovative, because it used space in the otherwise empty upper deck; the only expense was one flight attendant, food and beverages, and the weight of the seats and passengers. Unfortunately, the service ended when Flying Tiger took over Seaboard.

And the westbound was a red eye, dep FRA 0200 arr JFK 0500, if you had a home to go to in New York that’s actually pretty civilised, beat the morning rush and home by 0700 and get a four hour sleep cycle done by midday.

All of my recent posts on here have been deleted despite taking the effort to share decent intel like this. Have been posting on here since the 90s and overzealous mods have always been its Achilles heel but seems worse than ever lately. Let’s see how long this one lasts.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 3174
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:03 am

Only UK, Eire and Portugal are 5 hours ahead of North America’s East Coast.
LON (LHR) works well either year-around or seasonal daytime eastbound from BOS, NYC (EWR/JFK), PHL, WAS (IAD), YYZ and YUL.
DUB may only work seasonal from BOS and NYC, YYZ very iffy; same for LIS plus LON from YHZ.
And seasonal meaning once of twice per week (weekends) only summer high season and peak Xmas - New Year.

As for the other way around.. Given LON-NYC is such a big O/D market, Why no LON (must be STN - no curfew) - EWR/JFK red-eyes? A 0100 departure would land the westbound plane in NYC 0430.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 3346
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:43 am

cedarjet wrote:
A lot of talk of connections but London is one of the biggest O&D destinations in the world, it’s not Charlotte or Abu Dhabi. That said these flights are great if you’re flying from the west coast of the Americas, take a red eye out of California into New York at dawn (or from BC to YYZ) and take the daytripper to arrive in London at bedtime. Have done that several times and it’s a sure fire way to cover nine times zones (and eastbound which is usually particularly horrendous), and experience little to no jetlag.

Concorde was always daylight eastbound, the only red eye it ever operated was SQ/BA300 BAH 2235 SIN 0710+1. (Full Singapore schedule was LHR 1530 BAH 2135, BAH to SIN as above, SIN 1130 BAH 1055, BAH 1145 LHR 1405.)

WA707atMSP wrote:
One VERY unusual daylight flight in the 1970s was Seaboard World JFK-FRA, using the bubble of their 747-200Fs. Passengers checked in at the AA terminal, and were bussed to the cargo terminal.

This flight was pretty innovative, because it used space in the otherwise empty upper deck; the only expense was one flight attendant, food and beverages, and the weight of the seats and passengers. Unfortunately, the service ended when Flying Tiger took over Seaboard.

And the westbound was a red eye, dep FRA 0200 arr JFK 0500, if you had a home to go to in New York that’s actually pretty civilised, beat the morning rush and home by 0700 and get a four hour sleep cycle done by midday.

All of my recent posts on here have been deleted despite taking the effort to share decent intel like this. Have been posting on here since the 90s and overzealous mods have always been its Achilles heel but seems worse than ever lately. Let’s see how long this one lasts.


And it seems I found the answer to my question- as I correctly commented above- these flights weren't for the general public- only military:
https://www.seaboardairlines.org/misc/captains_deck.htm
 
User avatar
adambrau
Posts: 415
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:16 am

Pan Am 100 flew JFK-LHR (B747) continuing onto FRA on a 727 arriving around midnight, for many years.

Morning departures from East Coast to London is a jet-lag buster. LHR also offers late night connections onward to various destinations.

London has an advantage with the 5 hour time zone difference, versus 6 hours for AMS/FRA/CDG. O/D is strong for LON but there is also a bit of connecting services versus for Continental hubs that just doesn't really work.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 1231
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:54 am

cedarjet wrote:
A lot of talk of connections but London is one of the biggest O&D destinations in the world, it’s not Charlotte or Abu Dhabi. That said these flights are great if you’re flying from the west coast of the Americas, take a red eye out of California into New York at dawn (or from BC to YYZ) and take the daytripper to arrive in London at bedtime. Have done that several times and it’s a sure fire way to cover nine times zones (and eastbound which is usually particularly horrendous), and experience little to no jetlag.


Strong O&D is one reason.

But another reason, like I mentioned above, was the need for airlines like AA/UA to have aircrafts in LHR for the early morning departure.

For instance, AA90 ORD-LHR dep 08:30 and arrive in 22:00 to LHR. It will turn around as AA99 LHR to ORD next morning, dep from LHR at 07:30
The first arrive into LHR by AA is AA50/AA100 from DFW/JFK, both scheduled at 6am. Neither is able to turn around in 90 minutes to fly AA99. Because LHR's strict early morning arrive restrictions, AA or for this matter other airlines flying transatlantic routes can not schedule any arrives before 6am, hence impossible to turn around the flight for any departure earlier than 8am (due to the nature of flight I would say 8:25am). So it is absolutely crucial to have AA90 day time flight in order to have the aircraft in LHR for next morning's early departure.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3581
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:51 am

bennett123 wrote:

People in London don't want streams of flights arriving in the early hours.


On top if the stream of flights already arriving in the early hours.

The day time flights work for me, honestly if I have work to do it gets done, I eat, relax, watch a movie, get in to LHR, deal with the mess there, then off to a hotel for sleep.

Sure for some its a wasted day, but, at least for me, I get in after an overnight flight, I'm a zombie anyways, nothing productive is getting done on arrival.
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1667
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:24 am

@chonetsao,
A 90 min turn for a wide body is easily doable at LHR for AA.
They choose not to do it, but it IS achievable .
 
twicearound
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Why are there daytime flights from North America to Europe?

Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:05 am

One of the FI BOS-KEF is run during the day leaving Logan around noon and arriving in KEF around 10PM. This flight is supported by local O&D and live cargo. If Boston wasn’t the strongest US market for Icelandair I doubt they’d run it.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos