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socaljoeyb
Topic Author
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 2:29 am

Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:27 am

I remember passing through LAS 5 years ago or so and remember seeing either Concourse A or B mothballed while walking through the airport. Now it's bursting at the seams and seems most gates are being used. Is there a chance for an expansion of more gates and further growth?
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 2260
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:39 am

socaljoeyb wrote:
I remember passing through LAS 5 years ago or so and remember seeing either Concourse A or B mothballed while walking through the airport. Now it's bursting at the seams and seems most gates are being used. Is there a chance for an expansion of more gates and further growth?


I don't know if the master plan includes provisions for gate expansion where the former Terminal 2 existed. I'm thinking a similar layout to Concourse C where a train could service the expansion from the Terminal 1 landside building.
 
dmanonice
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:09 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:42 am

It would seem the county believes there is not further room for expansion at LAS hence why they have planned the Ivanpah Valley Airport as a reliever for LAS. This mind you has been on the table since 2010 with no real movement.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 544
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:59 pm

Ivanpah…. There is no way I would fly there if I was going to Las Vegas… adds another hour at least
 
midway7
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:24 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:52 pm

I remember talk of a replacement airport out in the desert in the 1990's. McCarran is land locked and PRIME real estate if they ever considered an outright replacement. However, I do not see it happening.
 
AAPilot48Heavy
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:50 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:58 pm

midway7 wrote:
I remember talk of a replacement airport out in the desert in the 1990's. McCarran is land locked and PRIME real estate if they ever considered an outright replacement. However, I do not see it happening.


I also do not see that happening, for the reason you mentioned. It's perfectly located and SO convenient for The Strip. I love LAS and wouldn't want it to be completely rebuilt elsewhere.

If they wanted to open a 2nd feeder airport of sorts, fine, but LAS isn't going anywhere.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2230
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:09 pm

LAS is landlocked.
Henderson is now all but locked in due to planned growth to the south, which is now filling in most of the south valley, and moving into the hills. Was amazed a few months ago at how far south it has gone, even into and over Railroad Pass. (I remember when there was NOTHING but a gas station and a small casino at Blue Diamond Road).

High dollar homes with grass yards built around a lush, green golf course in Boulder City, how insane is that?

Ivanpah makes sense, perhaps even retasking Indian Lake?
But for any new airport on higher elevations around LAS, density altitude is going to be a real issue. Even 700-1000 feet higher is going to make a huge difference to takeoff weights in the Vegas heat.

Going out to Jean seems like a better alternative in my mind. The growth has not reached that far south yet, and it keeps air traffic out of the bowl that is the Las Vegas Valley. No more circling approaches or departures.
 
dmanonice
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:09 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:15 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
LAS is landlocked.
Henderson is now all but locked in due to planned growth to the south, which is now filling in most of the south valley, and moving into the hills. Was amazed a few months ago at how far south it has gone, even into and over Railroad Pass. (I remember when there was NOTHING but a gas station and a small casino at Blue Diamond Road).

Ivanpah makes sense, perhaps even retasking Indian Lake?
But for any new airport on higher elevations around LAS, density altitude is going to be a real issue. Even 700-1000 feet higher is going to make a huge difference to takeoff weights in the Vegas heat.

Going out to Jean seems like a better alternative in my mind. The growth has not reached that far south yet, and it keeps air traffic out of the bowl that is the Las Vegas Valley. No more circling approaches or departures.


The Ivanpah location is between Jean and Primm about 5 minles southwest of Jean. The Jean airport likely to be closed and it's activities re-located to the new reliever facility if the plan ever goes through.
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:16 pm

Surely doesn't matter how far the airport is because it will be connected by underground Teslas!
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2230
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:18 pm

dmanonice wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
LAS is landlocked.
Henderson is now all but locked in due to planned growth to the south, which is now filling in most of the south valley, and moving into the hills. Was amazed a few months ago at how far south it has gone, even into and over Railroad Pass. (I remember when there was NOTHING but a gas station and a small casino at Blue Diamond Road).

Ivanpah makes sense, perhaps even retasking Indian Lake?
But for any new airport on higher elevations around LAS, density altitude is going to be a real issue. Even 700-1000 feet higher is going to make a huge difference to takeoff weights in the Vegas heat.

Going out to Jean seems like a better alternative in my mind. The growth has not reached that far south yet, and it keeps air traffic out of the bowl that is the Las Vegas Valley. No more circling approaches or departures.


The Ivanpah location is between Jean and Primm about 5 minles southwest of Jean. The Jean airport likely to be closed and it's activities re-located to the new reliever facility if the plan ever goes through.

Roach Lake, in the pass?
 
UWPAviation
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:36 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:31 pm

Concourse C, the WN gates, that concourse is so outdated and cramped. I cant believe WN hasn't done something. But I guess the question is what?
 
dmanonice
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:09 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:52 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
dmanonice wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
LAS is landlocked.
Henderson is now all but locked in due to planned growth to the south, which is now filling in most of the south valley, and moving into the hills. Was amazed a few months ago at how far south it has gone, even into and over Railroad Pass. (I remember when there was NOTHING but a gas station and a small casino at Blue Diamond Road).

Ivanpah makes sense, perhaps even retasking Indian Lake?
But for any new airport on higher elevations around LAS, density altitude is going to be a real issue. Even 700-1000 feet higher is going to make a huge difference to takeoff weights in the Vegas heat.

Going out to Jean seems like a better alternative in my mind. The growth has not reached that far south yet, and it keeps air traffic out of the bowl that is the Las Vegas Valley. No more circling approaches or departures.


The Ivanpah location is between Jean and Primm about 5 minles southwest of Jean. The Jean airport likely to be closed and it's activities re-located to the new reliever facility if the plan ever goes through.

Roach Lake, in the pass?


I am not sure, it's supposed to go between I15 and the Union Pacific line. Looking at the documents here https://goed.nv.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Roben-Armstrong.-James-Chrisely-SNSA-GOED-Infrastructure-Development-Working-Group-06.24.2021.pdf it looks like that is the general area that they are looking at.
 
BMan1000
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:00 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:07 pm

Brightline West is due to begin construction within the next couple years. They are running right down the I-15 Right away, so you have to imagine Ivanpah Valley would get a station. Brightline West is expected to be a higher speed train, marketed as running at 180MPH. Now will that happen? Is anyone's guess right now, they bought land on the South Strip, but were also supposed to start construction in 2020. That being said, Brightline falls through, this shows that there is willingness by Nevada to allow trains down the I-15 corridor, so should an airport be built in Jean, a train connection would pretty much have to be guaranteed for it to work. It's about a 40 minute drive without traffic down to Ivanpah, but say a 20 minute train ride was advertised, I'm sure the airport become much more attractive.

As for current LAS, apart from where the old T2 was, which is now basically parking for Allegiant planes, there isn't much more space for expansion at LAS. There's always the possibility of turning North LV into a reliever airport, but the infrastructure around it would need a lot of work. Seems like if Brightline gets off the ground, the Ivanpah project ball begins to seriously start rolling.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:31 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:31 pm

All you need to know about Brightline is going on in Florida right now. Years behind. Odd plan that goes from miami up the coast to make a 90 turn toward Orlando.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5770
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Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:34 pm

LAS is a rather ugly airport. Hopefully they fix it a little bit. I was there a few months ago and we waited in line for take off for at least 45 minutes.

Why not built a low cost airport somewhere out in the open where fees would be dirt cheap. It could attract some airlines like Frontier, Allegiant and so on.
 
AAPilot48Heavy
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:50 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:03 pm

Blerg wrote:
LAS is a rather ugly airport. Hopefully they fix it a little bit. I was there a few months ago and we waited in line for take off for at least 45 minutes.

Why not built a low cost airport somewhere out in the open where fees would be dirt cheap. It could attract some airlines like Frontier, Allegiant and so on.


I agree that it isn't overly attractive, but it works.

Why not build (d) it? Because it costs money and there has to be a return on investment. I like the idea of another airport, but I don't know that it makes financial sense.
 
mga707
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:08 pm

Blerg wrote:
LAS is a rather ugly airport. Hopefully they fix it a little bit. I was there a few months ago and we waited in line for take off for at least 45 minutes.

Why not built a low cost airport somewhere out in the open where fees would be dirt cheap. It could attract some airlines like Frontier, Allegiant and so on.


Allegiant has a major operation at LAS. they're not going to move unless the airport closes, which isn't going to happen. And how is current LAS 'rather ugly'? Not my perception at all. Even the 1960s 'banjos' look fine to me.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:21 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
LAS is landlocked.
Henderson is now all but locked in due to planned growth to the south, which is now filling in most of the south valley, and moving into the hills. Was amazed a few months ago at how far south it has gone, even into and over Railroad Pass. (I remember when there was NOTHING but a gas station and a small casino at Blue Diamond Road).

High dollar homes with grass yards built around a lush, green golf course in Boulder City, how insane is that?

Ivanpah makes sense, perhaps even retasking Indian Lake?
But for any new airport on higher elevations around LAS, density altitude is going to be a real issue. Even 700-1000 feet higher is going to make a huge difference to takeoff weights in the Vegas heat.

Going out to Jean seems like a better alternative in my mind. The growth has not reached that far south yet, and it keeps air traffic out of the bowl that is the Las Vegas Valley. No more circling approaches or departures.


They can’t and won’t grow Boulder City on account of the ground asbestos.
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 2260
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:31 pm

mga707 wrote:
And how is current LAS 'rather ugly'? Not my perception at all. Even the 1960s 'banjos' look fine to me.


I agree. The 2019 renovations to the banjos really elevates their appearance while keeping that classic old-school "Vegas" look.
 
mga707
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:47 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
mga707 wrote:
And how is current LAS 'rather ugly'? Not my perception at all. Even the 1960s 'banjos' look fine to me.


I agree. The 2019 renovations to the banjos really elevates their appearance while keeping that classic old-school "Vegas" look.


Haven't seen the 're-do'. Last flight in/out of LAS was Xmas 2016. All subsequent Vegas visits have been by vehicle. Glad the kept the classic look. Many a late-night America West connection through those banjos in the '80s and '90s.
 
Western727
Posts: 2386
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:53 pm

I flew in and out of LAS on WN last week, and I agree it's cramped. TSA Pre or CLEAR are highly recommended.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5338
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:56 pm

If brightline every actually opens that would surely free up alot of space. So cal is the number one market from las by far. If there is a high speed train open you will see alot do that over flying. It’s definitely an if but that could free up a lot of space at LAS.

No there is definitely no reason to build a second airport. Las is in the perfect location and still has lots of capacity.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5338
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:00 pm

Western727 wrote:
I flew in and out of LAS on WN last week, and I agree it's cramped. TSA Pre or CLEAR are highly recommended.


The southwest sort is cramped because they like to be close. The rest of the airport is quite spacious and is not at capacity restricted. The newer parts have much larger walkways, larger waiting areas, and just way more space. A lot of Southwest by their own choosing to be close is in a very old crammed area, doesn’t represent the airport as a whole well at all.
 
Western727
Posts: 2386
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:14 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Western727 wrote:
I flew in and out of LAS on WN last week, and I agree it's cramped. TSA Pre or CLEAR are highly recommended.


The southwest sort is cramped because they like to be close. The rest of the airport is quite spacious and is not at capacity restricted. The newer parts have much larger walkways, larger waiting areas, and just way more space. A lot of Southwest by their own choosing to be close is in a very old crammed area, doesn’t represent the airport as a whole well at all.


You raise a valid point. I went to D to spend time in the Centurion Lounge before my return flight out of there and I had forgotten (thanks, COVID) that it's far superior to C.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11447
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:20 pm

AAPilot48Heavy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
LAS is a rather ugly airport. Hopefully they fix it a little bit. I was there a few months ago and we waited in line for take off for at least 45 minutes.

Why not built a low cost airport somewhere out in the open where fees would be dirt cheap. It could attract some airlines like Frontier, Allegiant and so on.


I agree that it isn't overly attractive, but it works.

Why not build (d) it? Because it costs money and there has to be a return on investment.


That's the thing. A new airport can't be cheap because all of the infrastructure would be new. Not all of it would be rolled into carrier fees but there would be vast spending on duplicate infrastucture - terminals, runways, rental car facilities, freeways connections...
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2709
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:29 pm

Western727 wrote:
I flew in and out of LAS on WN last week, and I agree it's cramped. TSA Pre or CLEAR are highly recommended.

Or they could just re-open the pre-check for the A/B gates that they quietly permanently closed.
 
cschleic
Posts: 1933
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:29 pm

Seems that some of the older gate facilities could be replaced with more efficient use of the space. The newer satellite and T-3 are great.

A number of years ago I saw a presentation by airport management that noted that the airport determines the number of gates based on the projected number of hotel rooms in the city. That's been a difficult one lately but overall likely that hotel rooms will increase over time.
 
dmanonice
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:09 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:13 pm

cschleic wrote:
Seems that some of the older gate facilities could be replaced with more efficient use of the space. The newer satellite and T-3 are great.

A number of years ago I saw a presentation by airport management that noted that the airport determines the number of gates based on the projected number of hotel rooms in the city. That's been a difficult one lately but overall likely that hotel rooms will increase over time.


Indeed there is infact a new hotel being built on the strip essentially right next to the airport called Dream hotel Las Vegas.

If you did an LGA style rebuild of T1 increase the distance from the headhouse to the piers and allow aircraft underneath you may be able to get a few more gates into T1 and T3 & it's satellite could be set up to handle remote gates at what I am assuming is the old T2 apron over by cargo. But onces those options are done/ deemed not an option there really isn't anymore land available to put a terminal.
 
midway7
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:24 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:37 pm

It appears if they came up with some replacement airport for cargo operations, they could expand into the area currently used for this at the NE / E corner of the field. This seems like the only real way for some material commercial facilities expansion.
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 744
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:04 pm

I remember the days at LAS when you could park just about where Davis Memorial Park is and watch all the traffic landing on 26R. Of course those were days of DC-10 and 747-100 traffic. The plan at the time was 3-4 additional terminals parallel to C, all connected by train. Instead they built D, which I think was a mistake.
 
Vctony
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 1999 10:51 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:16 pm

Western727 wrote:
I flew in and out of LAS on WN last week, and I agree it's cramped. TSA Pre or CLEAR are highly recommended.


I live near PHX and do most of my travel to Las Vegas by vehicle but I flew in and out about 2 weeks ago and I have the following observations.

Terminal 3 (and the E gates) are nice but they don't appear to be aging very well. The whole area looks more outdated than DTWs terminals (which are older). There's nothing particularly bad about them but nothing amazing either.

Terminal 1 looks like it's stuck in 1985. I thought I'd stepped onto the set of Stranger Things walking in there. Not to mention the WN gate area where there's a walkway through a security checkpoint (the security lanes are literally next to the walkway) to get from the WN gates on the C concourse to the WN gates on the B banjo. The whole setup seemed like once one gets past security one enters a Vegas casino with sprawling walkways through random areas (I'd also argue WN's gate areas at LAS seem more cramped than the older portions of PHX (the C gates).

I
 
ScottB
Posts: 7871
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:48 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
If brightline every actually opens that would surely free up alot of space. So cal is the number one market from las by far. If there is a high speed train open you will see alot do that over flying. It’s definitely an if but that could free up a lot of space at LAS.


If Brightline ever gets built I think it will still be a market failure outside of some crazy level of taxation being put on flying. The "L.A." end is going to be at Victorville so you still have to drive an hour-plus for an hour-and-a-half train ride -- versus heading to an airport that's probably within 30 to 45 minutes for a flight of similar duration. They don't have a lot of room to underprice flying and it's going to cost a ton of money to build the rail line.
 
Western727
Posts: 2386
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:38 am

Vctony wrote:
Western727 wrote:
I flew in and out of LAS on WN last week, and I agree it's cramped. TSA Pre or CLEAR are highly recommended.


Terminal 1 looks like it's stuck in 1985. I thought I'd stepped onto the set of Stranger Things walking in there. Not to mention the WN gate area where there's a walkway through a security checkpoint (the security lanes are literally next to the walkway) to get from the WN gates on the C concourse to the WN gates on the B banjo. The whole setup seemed like once one gets past security one enters a Vegas casino with sprawling walkways through random areas (I'd also argue WN's gate areas at LAS seem more cramped than the older portions of PHX (the C gates).

I


The Stranger Things analogy is 100% apt! :rotfl:

Joking aside, I'd forgotten about the...interesting...walk between B and C. I was lucky enough to arrive and depart directly from C so the last time I made the B & C walk on a connection was late in the Before Times.
 
dmanonice
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:09 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:48 pm

ScottB wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
If brightline every actually opens that would surely free up alot of space. So cal is the number one market from las by far. If there is a high speed train open you will see alot do that over flying. It’s definitely an if but that could free up a lot of space at LAS.


If Brightline ever gets built I think it will still be a market failure outside of some crazy level of taxation being put on flying. The "L.A." end is going to be at Victorville so you still have to drive an hour-plus for an hour-and-a-half train ride -- versus heading to an airport that's probably within 30 to 45 minutes for a flight of similar duration. They don't have a lot of room to underprice flying and it's going to cost a ton of money to build the rail line.


Not to get too far off topic but Brightline is in the process of planning the extension as far as Rancho Cucamonga which would enable connections to other systems in Metro LA. Still not perfect but much better than the planned Victorville terminus. (note planned extension has a 2026 start date)

Regardless the main issue with the new airport location will be rapid connection to the strip, if not done via Brightline, then some other method will need to take it's place to make this airport as attractive an option as the current LAS.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11447
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:45 pm

Sometime there are no good solutions. The original real estate allocation just didn't anticipate the scope of growth sixty or eighty years later. The city grew up around the airport too fast.

BOS has had no good solutions for decades, hemmed in by the harbor, the Mystic River, and Route 1A, and as a result a lot of aviation growth just went elsewhere.

Montreal figured out that splitting traffic across Dorval and Mirabel wasn't a good solution. It took Tokyo decades, but they figured out that intercon traffic really ought to be permitted at Haneda. Maybe if they had built express rail to NRT (as was done at HKG), NRT would have been more successful.

If you wanted to build facilities for 100 million passengers in the middle of nowhere (as Istanbul did), you'd never build EWR + JFK + LGA instead of something like ATL or DEN.

Real high speed rail at high frequency (as the French, Chinese, and Japanese do it) from SoCal to Las Vegas would take a good bit of pressure off LAS. I won't be an investor, thank you.
 
jplatts
Posts: 5999
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:56 pm

Here is the current breakdown of WN service out of LAS on weekdays (229 daily departures):
3x ABQ, 1x AMA, 1x ATL, 5x AUS, 3x BWI, 1x BLI, 1x BOI, 2x BZN, 11x BUR, 8x MDW, 1x ORD, 3x COS, 2x CMH, 6x DAL, 10x DEN, 2x ELP, 1x EUG, 4x FAT, 2x HNL, 5x HOU, 2x IAH, 2x IND, 2x OGG, 3x MCI, 1x KOA, 1x LIH, 5x LGB, 11x LAX, 1x LBB, 1x MAF, 1x MKE, 3x BNA, 1x MSY, 12x OAK, 2x OKC, 2x OMA, 5x ONT, 10x SNA, 2x PSP, 12x PHX, 1x PIT, 2x PDX, 8x RNO, 11x SMF, 5x SLC, 3x SAT, 14x SAN, 4x SFO, 13x SJC, 3x SBA, 4x SEA, 2x GEG, 4x STL, 3x TUS, 1x TUL

WN also currently has Saturday-only nonstop service to LAS from BUF/CLE/DSM/DTW/SDF/MCO/TPA/ICT.

WN currently operates an average of 9.96 departures per day per gate at LAS on weekdays (229 daily departures out of 23 gates) with WN currently operating 229 daily departures out of 23 gates at LAS.

WN likely still has room to add more flights out of LAS with WN having previously operating an average of more than 11 departures per gate per day out of a few other airports such as AUS, DAL, and LAX.

WN can also move some of its LAS-BUR/DEN/LAX/OAK/SNA/PHX/SMF/SAN/SJC nonstop flights to other airports to free up room at LAS for other adds/resumptions, and WN can also upgauge more of its LAS-BUR/DEN/LAX/OAK/PHX/SMF/SAN/SJC nonstop flights to the 737-800 or 737 MAX 8 if necessary.
 
mga707
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:02 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Sometime there are no good solutions. The original real estate allocation just didn't anticipate the scope of growth sixty or eighty years later. The city grew up around the airport too fast.


81 years. The current airport opened in 1941, replacing the original Western Air Express field (Rockwell Field) located in what is now North Las Vegas.
And you're correct. Las Vegas city population in 1940 was 8,422. Clark County had 16,414. Far smaller than Reno, which had a city population of 21,317 in 1940.
 
Runway765
Posts: 814
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:02 pm

Why would they be gate constrained with no connecting hub? Sure, they have a plethora of focus cities, but it’s not like those need more gates. If they really need to, they could expand T1 onto the site of the former Terminal 2.
 
Vctony
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 1999 10:51 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:42 pm

jplatts wrote:
Here is the current breakdown of WN service out of LAS on weekdays (229 daily departures):
3x ABQ, 1x AMA, 1x ATL, 5x AUS, 3x BWI, 1x BLI, 1x BOI, 2x BZN, 11x BUR, 8x MDW, 1x ORD, 3x COS, 2x CMH, 6x DAL, 10x DEN, 2x ELP, 1x EUG, 4x FAT, 2x HNL, 5x HOU, 2x IAH, 2x IND, 2x OGG, 3x MCI, 1x KOA, 1x LIH, 5x LGB, 11x LAX, 1x LBB, 1x MAF, 1x MKE, 3x BNA, 1x MSY, 12x OAK, 2x OKC, 2x OMA, 5x ONT, 10x SNA, 2x PSP, 12x PHX, 1x PIT, 2x PDX, 8x RNO, 11x SMF, 5x SLC, 3x SAT, 14x SAN, 4x SFO, 13x SJC, 3x SBA, 4x SEA, 2x GEG, 4x STL, 3x TUS, 1x TUL

WN also currently has Saturday-only nonstop service to LAS from BUF/CLE/DSM/DTW/SDF/MCO/TPA/ICT.

WN currently operates an average of 9.96 departures per day per gate at LAS on weekdays (229 daily departures out of 23 gates) with WN currently operating 229 daily departures out of 23 gates at LAS.

WN likely still has room to add more flights out of LAS with WN having previously operating an average of more than 11 departures per gate per day out of a few other airports such as AUS, DAL, and LAX.

WN can also move some of its LAS-BUR/DEN/LAX/OAK/SNA/PHX/SMF/SAN/SJC nonstop flights to other airports to free up room at LAS for other adds/resumptions, and WN can also upgauge more of its LAS-BUR/DEN/LAX/OAK/PHX/SMF/SAN/SJC nonstop flights to the 737-800 or 737 MAX 8 if necessary.


Aren’t all of the gates at LAS technically common use so if WN needed more gates they might be able to access them?
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 961
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:39 pm

Concourses D & E are a ghost town outside the morning & evening rushes... it'd make far more sense to incentive LCC to serve the airport off-peak, than it would be to toss billions into expansion (that cost millions to maintain). People will follow cheap fares...

MIflyer12 wrote:
AAPilot48Heavy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
LAS is a rather ugly airport. Hopefully they fix it a little bit. I was there a few months ago and we waited in line for take off for at least 45 minutes.

Why not built a low cost airport somewhere out in the open where fees would be dirt cheap. It could attract some airlines like Frontier, Allegiant and so on.


I agree that it isn't overly attractive, but it works.

Why not build (d) it? Because it costs money and there has to be a return on investment.


That's the thing. A new airport can't be cheap because all of the infrastructure would be new. Not all of it would be rolled into carrier fees but there would be vast spending on duplicate infrastucture - terminals, runways, rental car facilities, freeways connections...


The Ivanpah Valley Airport (now named Southern Nevada Supplemental Airport) was estimated to cost less than $1B in the mid-1990s, $2B in the early 2000s, $5B in 2004 and $7B in 2007. Clark County already owns the land (purchased from the government for about $6M, with the transfer concluding in 2002), so those costs are pure construction. Using the Turner Building Cost Index, and tossing in a few billion dollars for excess cost due to environmental projects (such project would have to include preservation, solar energy, water recycling systems, etc.), if built today, the price tag would come in around $20B. For a reliever airport that's 30+ miles from the population center.

Historically, population trends and estimates have be inaccurate. Most companies are shying away from WFH, the gaming industry has been stigmatizing, Las Vegas hasn't been able to build any other industry, and real estate has ballooned. Couple that with climate change -- especially the water crisis in the Southwest -- I'd be shocked if Las Vegas reached the population projections being touted. Thus, I'd be surprised if we ever saw the Ivanpah Valley Airport get built.
 
mga707
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:08 am

"Stigmatizing"? Please elaborate--have no clue what you mean here.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11447
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:21 am

mga707 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Sometime there are no good solutions. The original real estate allocation just didn't anticipate the scope of growth sixty or eighty years later. The city grew up around the airport too fast.


81 years. The current airport opened in 1941, replacing the original Western Air Express field (Rockwell Field) located in what is now North Las Vegas.
And you're correct. Las Vegas city population in 1940 was 8,422. Clark County had 16,414. Far smaller than Reno, which had a city population of 21,317 in 1940.


Thanks for the history lesson and some population numbers. There were lots of U.S. airports established around that era - ish.

Some got replaced entirely: Denver Stapleton (1929), Austin Mueller (1930)

Some got substantially supplemented: Chicago Midway (1927), Houston Hobby (city-owned from 1937, although earlier private ops)

Some like PWM (~1930) just soldier on.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 961
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:39 am

mga707 wrote:
"Stigmatizing"? Please elaborate--have no clue what you mean here.


Stagnating. Auto-correct...
 
mga707
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:51 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
mga707 wrote:
"Stigmatizing"? Please elaborate--have no clue what you mean here.


Stagnating. Auto-correct...


Thank you--that makes a lot more sense.
 
mga707
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:01 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Thanks for the history lesson and some population numbers. There were lots of U.S. airports established around that era - ish.


You're welcome. Besides Las Vegas, 1941 also saw the opening of Washington National, replacing Hoover Field (site of the Pentagon) and the still-current Albuquerque Airport, replacing the earlier West Mesa Airport west of the Rio Grande. Some traces of that airfield remained until fairly recently. My home town airport, Tucson International, also dates to 1941, when it opened as a bomber modification facility for Consolidated-Vultee Aircraft. Airline service, though, remained at Davis-Monthan Flying Field (now D-M AFB) until after WW2. Arizona Airways used the current airport for their short-lived 1946-47 scheduled flights, and American moved over from D-M in 1948.

You're correct, many airports date from that immediate pre-war period.
Last edited by mga707 on Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Vctony
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 1999 10:51 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:03 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
mga707 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Sometime there are no good solutions. The original real estate allocation just didn't anticipate the scope of growth sixty or eighty years later. The city grew up around the airport too fast.


81 years. The current airport opened in 1941, replacing the original Western Air Express field (Rockwell Field) located in what is now North Las Vegas.
And you're correct. Las Vegas city population in 1940 was 8,422. Clark County had 16,414. Far smaller than Reno, which had a city population of 21,317 in 1940.


Thanks for the history lesson and some population numbers. There were lots of U.S. airports established around that era - ish.

Some got replaced entirely: Denver Stapleton (1929), Austin Mueller (1930)

Some got substantially supplemented: Chicago Midway (1927), Houston Hobby (city-owned from 1937, although earlier private ops)

Some like PWM (~1930) just soldier on.


PHX (1928) has the same problem as LAS. Although there is an alternative airport with airline service (AZA) in the metro area. If the BRAC ever comes for Nellis (LSV) it would be the perfect alternative airport.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3581
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:23 am

mga707 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Sometime there are no good solutions. The original real estate allocation just didn't anticipate the scope of growth sixty or eighty years later. The city grew up around the airport too fast.


81 years. The current airport opened in 1941, replacing the original Western Air Express field (Rockwell Field) located in what is now North Las Vegas.
And you're correct. Las Vegas city population in 1940 was 8,422. Clark County had 16,414. Far smaller than Reno, which had a city population of 21,317 in 1940.


Just a small correction, Rockwell/Anderson/Western Air Express
was not in North Las Vegas, it was at Sahara and Paradise. Its now employee parking for The Sahara.
 
Toinou
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:21 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:30 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Historically, population trends and estimates have be inaccurate. Most companies are shying away from WFH, the gaming industry has been stigmatizing, Las Vegas hasn't been able to build any other industry, and real estate has ballooned. Couple that with climate change -- especially the water crisis in the Southwest -- I'd be shocked if Las Vegas reached the population projections being touted. Thus, I'd be surprised if we ever saw the Ivanpah Valley Airport get built.

It really is something that needs to be considered. I was wondering exactly the same reading another thread about PHX. Many seem to underestimate what global warming (and the need for a more energy-efficient society) will mean for cities in places with an already hostile climate.
 
mga707
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:54 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
mga707 wrote:
Just a small correction, Rockwell/Anderson/Western Air Express
was not in North Las Vegas, it was at Sahara and Paradise. Its now employee parking for The Sahara.


Didn't know that--thanks. Just checked out the former airfield on the 'Abandoned & Little-Known Airfields' site. Interesting history going way back to 1920. I was confusing it with Alamo Landing Field, which W.A.E. moved to in 1929. That airfield is on the site of what is now Nellis AFB, which is adjacent to N. Las Vegas. Per the site, Anderson Field closed around 1930. So TWA would have also used Alamo when they began serving Las Vegas (and Boulder City as well) in 1938, until the present airport opened in '41.
Again, thank you for the correction.
Last edited by mga707 on Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3306
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Is LAS gate constrained?

Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:58 pm

Even if the D gates were ever to be fully utilized around 7-8 flts/day/gate - there is plenty of redevelopment opportunities in LAS. They are nowhere close to maxxed out.

The high A banjo could be replaced by a dual sided linear concourse stretching into the old T2 area that easily could add an additional 20 gates. The low B banjo could be expanded into a new linear concourse parallel to C which would add another 14-16 gates (assuming dual ADG III taxi lanes between them). Once those projects are done - LAS could do something with the other two banjos but there are a bunch of options for what they do there.

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