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Boeing757100
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:56 pm

nickya340 wrote:
747-8? I know it’s old but there’s more capacity than a 777X.


I wish, but new orders for the 747 have been a non starter since about 2020.
 
randomdude83
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:18 am

A Few thoughts:

-if EK is looking for a larger aircraft than the 777X....Why not ask Boeing on that 777-10X concept that Boeing proposed to SQ. It probably can reach 400Pax in the configuration EK wants.

-I'm genuinely genuinely curios what " I think they're beginning to take it a little bit more seriously " means.

Two multi billion dollar CEOS sitting together and if Airbus gives a signal to Tim that warrants him saying "I think they're beginning to take it a little bit more seriously", that sounds to me like Airbus is exploring something to sell to EK? Because they clearly/hopefully see, that EK was able to purchase 120 A380s and that is enough profit to warrant...taking it serious?

or is it the Airbus CEO going " oh yeah Timmy We'll look into it for you, now go away ". Just what does it mean when that is said on that level of negotiations. could also just be Tim putting words in Airbus's mouth.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:46 am

DartHerald wrote:
I seem to recall that in your many posts berating the A380 you routinely drew attention to its lack of freight capacity yet here you are advocating another double deck design!


Simple explanation of the seeming conundrum: Cargo is far less important to passenger airliners than passengers. Notice how many combi's there are? Were cargo preferable to pax, you'd see at least a few airlines ripping out seats and loading boxes. You don't (except during COVID).

When planes are close in performance/efficiency - as A380 was close to 77W - a relatively small factor like cargo can be a difference maker. For a terribly designed double decker like the A380, the absence of cargo hurts it.

For a well designed double decker, the >25% CASM difference can't be overcome by any feasible cargo differential. If it could be overcome, the simple solution would be to rip out 10% of the seats and carry more cargo than any other plane.
 
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flee
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:04 am

One big factor why an A380 successor may not be needed is the growth of high speed railways in Europe and Asia. The French have already started banning flights less than 2½ hours (see https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexledsom ... 948b167618 ) and in countries like China and Japan, high speed railways have taken over as passengers prefer the city centre to city centre rail journeys as they are quicker than short haul flights. As such, the only high capacity routes that are left may be flights that are over 10 hours long - even then, travellers prefer high frequency services. So the prospects for a high demand for the A380 successor does not look good.
 
Metchalus
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:35 am

flee wrote:
One big factor why an A380 successor may not be needed is the growth of high speed railways in Europe and Asia. The French have already started banning flights less than 2½ hours (see https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexledsom ... 948b167618 ) and in countries like China and Japan, high speed railways have taken over as passengers prefer the city centre to city centre rail journeys as they are quicker than short haul flights. As such, the only high capacity routes that are left may be flights that are over 10 hours long - even then, travellers prefer high frequency services. So the prospects for a high demand for the A380 successor does not look good.


A380s aren't usually deployed on the types of routes you're describing. Sure BA were sending them to FRA but that's the exception not the rule.

Many transatlantic routes are under 10 hours long, they aren't going to be replaced by trains.
 
raylee67
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:41 am

No one would be building it, because no one else wants it. The only way EK can get Airbus to build a large aircraft again is to order 1000 of those themselves and pay the full amount for that order up-front. He can say whatever he wants in an interview. Airbus would only react to the money transfer.
 
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flee
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:39 am

Metchalus wrote:
flee wrote:
One big factor why an A380 successor may not be needed is the growth of high speed railways in Europe and Asia. The French have already started banning flights less than 2½ hours (see https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexledsom ... 948b167618 ) and in countries like China and Japan, high speed railways have taken over as passengers prefer the city centre to city centre rail journeys as they are quicker than short haul flights. As such, the only high capacity routes that are left may be flights that are over 10 hours long - even then, travellers prefer high frequency services. So the prospects for a high demand for the A380 successor does not look good.

A380s aren't usually deployed on the types of routes you're describing. Sure BA were sending them to FRA but that's the exception not the rule.

Many transatlantic routes are under 10 hours long, they aren't going to be replaced by trains.

Your points don't change the fact that demand for any A380 replacement will only come from EK and it is unlikely that other airlines will want it.
 
Vicenza
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:25 am

flee wrote:
One big factor why an A380 successor may not be needed is the growth of high speed railways in Europe and Asia. The French have already started banning flights less than 2½ hours (see https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexledsom ... 948b167618 ) and in countries like China and Japan, high speed railways have taken over as passengers prefer the city centre to city centre rail journeys as they are quicker than short haul flights. As such, the only high capacity routes that are left may be flights that are over 10 hours long - even then, travellers prefer high frequency services. So the prospects for a high demand for the A380 successor does not look good.


I don't see that as a factor at all....Europe has had high-speed rail for decades, so not exactly 'growth' as you state. Equally, France has only banned such flights if there is a suitable train service between the points, and not totally as you state. But then, EK or anyone else, don't deploy A380's on the type of routes you are stipulating anyhow, plus high frequency is not at all important to all travellers.
 
Vicenza
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:36 am

Matt6461 wrote:

Simple explanation of the seeming conundrum: Cargo is far less important to passenger airliners than passengers. Notice how many combi's there are? Were cargo preferable to pax, you'd see at least a few airlines ripping out seats and loading boxes. You don't (except during COVID).


Not quite correct at all. Cargo is extremely profitable and very important to 'passenger' airlines as can be clearly seen by certain aircraft on particular routes. Combi's are irrelevant in the modern area because of the stringent regulations regarding their build and use. There are dedicated freighters which are far more efficient than you imagining that it is only a matter of "ripping out seats" Covid was a different thing, and reason, entirely.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:04 am

NZ321 wrote:
However, just roll on 10-15 years and you can hear airlines screaming given the lack of investment in the infrastructure that will be need to support hub-bypass routes on the scale currently proposed by some airframe manufacturers. STC has a point here; we may consider that the A380 was too much plane for its time with the exception of EK and a handful of other operators. But let's not make the mistake of assuming that this is therefore going to be the situation in another 10-15 years with projected growth in air-travel. The single hub effect on a Dubai scale could well be the scenario at another 15-20 cities that currently can get away without the A380, once we reach 2035. So, I wouldn't dismiss STC's comments or label them as flawed in any way.


I agree with this point. Demand from the developing world is only going to continue to increase. What happens if, say, Nigeria's middle classes continue to grow, Lagos continues to become a mega-city, and everyone wants to travel? And that's just one example. The same is happening in many places in the global south.

Demand continues to climb in the developed world, too. And we've seen what's happening with personnel shortages at many airports worldwide. AMS is a vivid example but far from the only one. Then there is the LHR third runway debacle.

I think discontinuing the A380 was premature (look how LH backed off its decision to retire the fleet), and, when feasible, the case for a double-decker VLA with two engines will be strong.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:05 am

flee wrote:
One big factor why an A380 successor may not be needed is the growth of high speed railways in Europe and Asia. The French have already started banning flights less than 2½ hours (see https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexledsom ... 948b167618 ) and in countries like China and Japan, high speed railways have taken over as passengers prefer the city centre to city centre rail journeys as they are quicker than short haul flights. As such, the only high capacity routes that are left may be flights that are over 10 hours long - even then, travellers prefer high frequency services. So the prospects for a high demand for the A380 successor does not look good.


This is silly. If anything, HSR increases the feed to long-haul flights.
 
chonetsao
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:31 am

Market is dynamic. It corrects itself all the time. When demand is that high, there will be always airlines provide alternative. For instance, airlines may try fly between Stanstead to Sharjah or Dubai World (can't remember its proper name, sorry) with multiple frequencies. Since STC said airfares are only going up, other airlines would smell the coffee and adjust their routes to share the pot. That in turn will depress market fare premium and force Emirates to adjust.

I found one of the fallacies of airline executive when talk openly, is that they always make everyone believe market will either going all the up (to satisfy higher fares) or forever downtrends (to satisfy the action of cutting cost or fire people). But back to the boardroom they know the demand and fares can not go up forever, and they all know when a route doing so well it does not mean the whole network, and they all know other carriers will step up competition when the yield is extremely good.

How many times airlines have fell into the cycle that increasing seats when market is good which end up in depressed yield and increased competition? I am glad that a free market works so far in this century. A free market called for a Super Jumbo, it was delivered. When the free market provided endless opportunities for ULCC when legacy lowered their product value and aimed for lower fares, many ULCC took over.

I felt STC should really talk about how EK will defend its market share and the premium brand instead of asking for a super super jumbo to flood the market with more seats. The party won't last forever, we are still benefiting from two years of restricted travel and revenge spending. 2023 may have the similar theme as some of the biggest economy have not opened up yet, once they do they will stimulate the travel demand again. However, once we are into late 2023 and early 2024, I felt STC won't be so confident as of now.
 
Metchalus
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:55 am

flee wrote:
Metchalus wrote:
flee wrote:
One big factor why an A380 successor may not be needed is the growth of high speed railways in Europe and Asia. The French have already started banning flights less than 2½ hours (see https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexledsom ... 948b167618 ) and in countries like China and Japan, high speed railways have taken over as passengers prefer the city centre to city centre rail journeys as they are quicker than short haul flights. As such, the only high capacity routes that are left may be flights that are over 10 hours long - even then, travellers prefer high frequency services. So the prospects for a high demand for the A380 successor does not look good.

A380s aren't usually deployed on the types of routes you're describing. Sure BA were sending them to FRA but that's the exception not the rule.

Many transatlantic routes are under 10 hours long, they aren't going to be replaced by trains.

Your points don't change the fact that demand for any A380 replacement will only come from EK and it is unlikely that other airlines will want it.


Who'll buy it depends on what the A380 replacement actually is.

This isn't even a paper plane at this point. It's just a loosely defined concept.

BA also like they're A380s, the may also be interested in a successor.
 
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crimsonchin
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:57 am

nickya340 wrote:
747-8? I know it’s old but there’s more capacity than a 777X.


Considering EK had multiples chances to order that plane already and didn't, I think it's clear they're not interested under any circumstance. Also, reading what TC is saying, EK seems to want a superjumbo sized plane that sits in the high 400s to 500 people in their configuration, which the 747-8 is not capable of.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:19 am

USAirKid wrote:
Taxi645 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if it were a Boeing-Airbus joint effort as was originally planned for the A380. But count me sceptical.


Do you have a source that the A380 was originally a Boeing-Airbus joint effort?

Given that Boeing had the 747 and 777 at the time, I don’t see how they’d want to get involved with the A380.


Not the A380 directly, but Boeing did collaborate with Airbus on the Very Large Commercial Transport program, which then gave way to the A3XX after Boeing called it quits.

https://www.strategy-business.com/article/15872
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:03 pm

I believe he's talking about a brand new aircraft type, EIS 15-20 years from now.

Suggestions in the thread about opening more hubs are a non-starter, the hub and spoke model is exactly the reason Emirates is successful and need these large aircraft.

20% improvement in next gen engines, 20% from composites, maybe even larger than the A380-800. I think building an airliner that will come in both passenger and freighter version from the start would be a good idea. A380 was meant to be a freighter too, it even had orders from multiple cargo airlines. They should have kept that part of the design.

I think approaching both Boeing and Airbus about this proposal would be a good idea. Get the idea out there among the Airbus and Boeing engineers, and their suggestions will float to the top. Like mentioned in the article, Guillaume Faury is a technologist, he listens to the engineers and will only go for what they think is possible. When a CEO is approached, all he sees is the business scope of things. When an engineer is pitched an idea, they see a complex problem and ideas how to solve it and make it work. That's what they do. Let the ideas float up on the inside of these corporations, instead of laying it directly onto the CEO's desk.
 
F9Animal
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:31 pm

Gosh, did they even kick tires on any 747's? Wish they could save that plane from being shut down. Sigh...
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:42 pm

res crowded airports: Rail is/will increasingly replacing short leg flights in Europe and China, and to a lesser degree in the US. A wild card is the ever improving autonomous vehicle (I know, I know: Musk's timelines on this need be treated as hemp induced dreaming). But even now, the improvements may be adding 25-50 miles every year to the optimal long distance driving on highways. The impact this will have on short leg air travel and the improvement on freeway congestion will be substantial. Rational futurologists at Airbus and Boeing are likely assessing these things. The big gun they will bring to the fight will be some sort of electrified flying system that will support legs of 500-1000 miles.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:35 pm

According to wiki, 71% of the Earth's surface is water. I cannot for a moment accept arguments that long haul (mostly over-water) flights will ever suffer competition from train, or car , just for the simple geography of things! Cargo already suffers competition from ships, but only when speed of delivery and perishable goods are excluded!

I also note that even those airlines that initially acquired A380s then put them out to rest at the start of Covid with stated plans of never returning them to service, are just doing that right now! There must be something right about the plane that makes all these airlines independently decide to return them to service

Look forward: 2040, Emirates operates 200 examples of a 600+ seater double-decker with 10 engines, 2 fossil fueled, 8 electric (just to crush the "2 engines only" evangelists) with unrivalled economy, and have an expanded DWC with few slot constraints. They offer a minimum of 2 flights per day from everywhere to everywhere else, very sharp ticket prices, and make shed loads of profit! The public loves it!

How do BA, LF, AF, UA, DL, AA, etc compete? By saying that VLAs don't fit their model? Oh yeh! By offering a B787 or A350 solution, which by then are "mature" tech (=old) and cannot really compete!

Cant beat 'em? Join 'em!



https://www.google.com/search?q=how+muc ... e&ie=UTF-8
 
MIflyer12
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:04 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
However, just roll on 10-15 years and you can hear airlines screaming given the lack of investment in the infrastructure that will be need to support hub-bypass routes on the scale currently proposed by some airframe manufacturers. STC has a point here; we may consider that the A380 was too much plane for its time with the exception of EK and a handful of other operators. But let's not make the mistake of assuming that this is therefore going to be the situation in another 10-15 years with projected growth in air-travel. The single hub effect on a Dubai scale could well be the scenario at another 15-20 cities that currently can get away without the A380, once we reach 2035. So, I wouldn't dismiss STC's comments or label them as flawed in any way.


I agree with this point. Demand from the developing world is only going to continue to increase. What happens if, say, Nigeria's middle classes continue to grow, Lagos continues to become a mega-city, and everyone wants to travel? And that's just one example. The same is happening in many places in the global south.

Demand continues to climb in the developed world, too. And we've seen what's happening with personnel shortages at many airports worldwide. AMS is a vivid example but far from the only one. Then there is the LHR third runway debacle.


The capacity constraint is almost exclusively a London problem, a failure to build out long-haul capacity at Heathrow and Gatwick. Stansted's runway is a little short, and Stansted is... Stansted. There's no reason that traffic not O&D for London needs to connect in London.

Venice, Rome and Florence, frankly, can't support another 25 million visitors a year, no matter whether they come by ship, air or rail. Venice's visitor reservation system with a dynamic fee based on anticipated daily crowds is just a start. It's too bad to have to ration access to world cultural patrimony based on price but I haven't seen a better system proposed.

Carriers operating at big airports with runways properly built out aren't asking for super-VLAs. See DEN, LAX, or DFW, among others.
 
744SPX
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:37 pm

Matt6461 wrote:

The article only discusses Open Fan. Which makes no sense because Open Fan doesn't work at speeds typical for longhaul widebodies.




Yes it does. NASA demonstrated with the ATP program in the 80's that open rotor can maintain double digit efficiency gains over equivalent technology turbofans at speeds up to .90 mach.
 
LDRA
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:49 pm

The only realistic option is re-engine current A380 fleet with Tent XWB Advanced. Trent XWB has external dimensions that are almost identical to Trent 900, making certification easier
 
GSPSPOT
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:02 pm

I know that I'm late to the party, but this cries out for a quote from the TV show Frasier: "Can't you see that it wants to die? Let it go!"
 
strfyr51
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:12 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
However, just roll on 10-15 years and you can hear airlines screaming given the lack of investment in the infrastructure that will be need to support hub-bypass routes on the scale currently proposed by some airframe manufacturers. STC has a point here; we may consider that the A380 was too much plane for its time with the exception of EK and a handful of other operators. But let's not make the mistake of assuming that this is therefore going to be the situation in another 10-15 years with projected growth in air-travel. The single hub effect on a Dubai scale could well be the scenario at another 15-20 cities that currently can get away without the A380, once we reach 2035. So, I wouldn't dismiss STC's comments or label them as flawed in any way.


I agree with this point. Demand from the developing world is only going to continue to increase. What happens if, say, Nigeria's middle classes continue to grow, Lagos continues to become a mega-city, and everyone wants to travel? And that's just one example. The same is happening in many places in the global south.

Demand continues to climb in the developed world, too. And we've seen what's happening with personnel shortages at many airports worldwide. AMS is a vivid example but far from the only one. Then there is the LHR third runway debacle.

I think discontinuing the A380 was premature (look how LH backed off its decision to retire the fleet), and, when feasible, the case for a double-decker VLA with two engines will be strong.

A double deck airliner with 2 engines? And What engine could handle an engine out takeoff at the Max Gross weight of an A380? There isn't one!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:14 am

sassiciai wrote:
According to wiki, 71% of the Earth's surface is water. I cannot for a moment accept arguments that long haul (mostly over-water) flights will ever suffer competition from train, or car , just for the simple geography of things! Cargo already suffers competition from ships, but only when speed of delivery and perishable goods are excluded!

I also note that even those airlines that initially acquired A380s then put them out to rest at the start of Covid with stated plans of never returning them to service, are just doing that right now! There must be something right about the plane that makes all these airlines independently decide to return them to service

Look forward: 2040, Emirates operates 200 examples of a 600+ seater double-decker with 10 engines, 2 fossil fueled, 8 electric (just to crush the "2 engines only" evangelists) with unrivalled economy, and have an expanded DWC with few slot constraints. They offer a minimum of 2 flights per day from everywhere to everywhere else, very sharp ticket prices, and make shed loads of profit! The public loves it!

How do BA, LF, AF, UA, DL, AA, etc compete? By saying that VLAs don't fit their model? Oh yeh! By offering a B787 or A350 solution, which by then are "mature" tech (=old) and cannot really compete!

Cant beat 'em? Join 'em!



https://www.google.com/search?q=how+muc ... e&ie=UTF-8

How do you handle seasonality as well as departure time preference?

Non-stops will always out yield a connection e.g., my employer now has the computer system automatically highlight non-stops as connection risk is a cost, if nothing else employee time (pay).

Also, the fantasy scenario is nice, I just do not see the tech in development to enable this scenario. Heck, I'm still waiting for flying cars.

Lightsaber
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:09 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
... improving autonomous vehicle (I know, I know: Musk's timelines on this need be treated as hemp induced dreaming). But even now, the improvements may be adding 25-50 miles every year to the optimal long distance driving on highways. The impact this will have on short leg air travel and the improvement on freeway congestion will be substantial. Rational futurologists at Airbus and Boeing are likely assessing these things. The big gun they will bring to the fight will be some sort of electrified flying system that will support legs of 500-1000 miles.


I personally feel that electrified flying will take a lot longer than we expect currently. However, autonomous vehicles - both as private vehicles and Robo Uber's. Imagine being able to take a train to Ashland, Oregon and be able to get Robo Uber's instead of renting a car that is hardly used. Or someone owns an autonomous SUV with all the comforts. I need to leave home 4 hours before my flight from SEA, on return it is about 1.5 hours. So I can drive 300 miles in the minimum time it takes to fly + 50 miles for every flight hour. In an Robo Uber with nice lay flat seats, I could do an overnight type thing but 800 miles would be tops for me. Within that 800 miles would certainly have great flight connection cities. Robo Uber's may be what replaces the regional jet.

A switch to Robo Uber's would greatly reduce car ownership in the urban areas, so same freeway congestion but the number of parked cars would be greatly reduced. This change will impact flying but in what way, less cost of local transport means more travel budgets, but the driving radius kills the short range aviation market. Bigger catchment area means fuller flights, so it could be positive for aviation.
 
astuteman
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:40 am

LDRA wrote:
The only realistic option is re-engine current A380 fleet with Tent XWB Advanced. Trent XWB has external dimensions that are almost identical to Trent 900, making certification easier


It may be the most realistic option - it has flown on this airframe after all. But the Trent XWB is a good 1000kg per engine heavier than the T900, thus adding a whopping 4 tonnes to OEW, plus almost certainly a beefing up of the wing to support the extra engine weight..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... ifications

TXWB dry weight 7,277 kg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... (Trent_900)

T900 dry weight 6,246 kg

I understand the cruise SFC difference to be about 5%.

Rgds
 
astuteman
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:47 am

strfyr51 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
However, just roll on 10-15 years and you can hear airlines screaming given the lack of investment in the infrastructure that will be need to support hub-bypass routes on the scale currently proposed by some airframe manufacturers. STC has a point here; we may consider that the A380 was too much plane for its time with the exception of EK and a handful of other operators. But let's not make the mistake of assuming that this is therefore going to be the situation in another 10-15 years with projected growth in air-travel. The single hub effect on a Dubai scale could well be the scenario at another 15-20 cities that currently can get away without the A380, once we reach 2035. So, I wouldn't dismiss STC's comments or label them as flawed in any way.


I agree with this point. Demand from the developing world is only going to continue to increase. What happens if, say, Nigeria's middle classes continue to grow, Lagos continues to become a mega-city, and everyone wants to travel? And that's just one example. The same is happening in many places in the global south.

Demand continues to climb in the developed world, too. And we've seen what's happening with personnel shortages at many airports worldwide. AMS is a vivid example but far from the only one. Then there is the LHR third runway debacle.

I think discontinuing the A380 was premature (look how LH backed off its decision to retire the fleet), and, when feasible, the case for a double-decker VLA with two engines will be strong.

A double deck airliner with 2 engines? And What engine could handle an engine out takeoff at the Max Gross weight of an A380? There isn't one!


Matt 6461 probably has some calcs on this, but there's no way in my opinion, that a brand new replacement VLA for the A380 will weigh anything like 560 - 570 tonnes.

If such a thing ever happens, (and I'm sceptical) I don't see an aircraft much heavier than about 400t - 420t MTOW, with way higher AR wings than the A380, and a narrower fuselage.
It would thus need probably 10%-15% more thrust than the 110,000 lb of the GE9X - say 125,000 - 130,000 lb.
I have a feeling the ultrafan demonstrator being built by RR may be potentially capable of that.

Rgds
 
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Taxi645
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:00 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
Taxi645 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if it were a Boeing-Airbus joint effort as was originally planned for the A380. But count me sceptical.


Do you have a source that the A380 was originally a Boeing-Airbus joint effort?

Given that Boeing had the 747 and 777 at the time, I don’t see how they’d want to get involved with the A380.


Not the A380 directly, but Boeing did collaborate with Airbus on the Very Large Commercial Transport program, which then gave way to the A3XX after Boeing called it quits.

https://www.strategy-business.com/article/15872


Thank you for sharing the article. It explains pretty well a number of reasons the collaboration did not go through at the time and why, in 20+ years, the situation would be different:

- Boeing would not have the 747, Airbus no A380.
- The market would be probably still be too small for multiple VLA's. A shared solution could be acceptable if there would be enough political will.
- Who knows what the commercial aviation landscape will look like then. Which countries will have what slice of the pie. If the duopoly weakens, a US-EU tie up would become more likely I feel.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:09 pm

I am so surprised that so many posters here are looking at things "short term", and can only see as far as today's technology, maybe a bit of tomorrow's!

I challenge you all to think about "next week's" technology, and apply that to the question of the thread

The birth of the Comet, the B747, and others, required a bit of VISION, and a "can do" attitude to solving the unknows of the day! Declaring that it is not feasible, or doable, or too expensive, or too risky..... Never get to the Moon with that mindset!

STC is at least beginning a debate. Where it will go, only time will tell! But claiming that the B779 will be the biggest build from now henceforth, with at a max 2 fossil fuel engines, is denying the amazing achievements made in the last 100 years in aviation, and predicting an arid future of technical advances from now on!

I do predict that the mantra "only 2 engines from now on" will bite a death in the not-so-distant future, as non-fossil fuel engines arrive, and begin to displace today's engines! "Lots of engines for Long haul" (or LOL :D ) will be the new slogan!
 
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:17 pm

Since the A380 was developed, there has been just as much fuel burn reduction on the airframe side as the engine side in my opinion and I'm an engine nut:
1. Wingtip treatments
2. CFRP wings. This is a huge deal vs. the 777x, A350, and 787.
3. Electrical subsystems (maintenance cost reduction and cruise fuel burn)

Then another issue, and bear with me (I couldn't think of a quick way to state this):
It is my opinion the A388 is too small for a double deck. :faint:
If you look at the 737, you can see every re-engine optimizes for a *longer aircraft.
First generation, optimal model 737-200
Second generation optimal model 737-300 (not the -500 that was the -200 length)
Third generation optimal model was the -800 (not the -700, the -300 length and certainly not the -600 which was as close to the -200 length as possible with the new wing/engines)
Fourth generation is currently selling best on the -8, but I expect the -10 to be the sales leader.

The same is true on widebodies. There must be a significant stretch of the A380 to justify any chance of production.

DXB must compete with IST, ADD, and eventually Indian hubs (e.g., Navi Mumbai and hopefully a Navi Delhi, eventually) With other airport expansion, e.g., Daxing airport in Beijing, I just see little demand to get to the airport 20 minutes earlier to load a larger aircraft. Premium traffic tends towards the fewest connections (direct is preferred, my company now requires it on many flights and if you select to hub, the employee must justify the stop). The ME3 were new exciting hubs that did an excellent job on the Europe to Asia and Africa to Asia connections (as well as regional connections). EK will be around, but as already noted, one airline doesn't make a business case.

LDRA wrote:
The only realistic option is re-engine current A380 fleet with Tent XWB Advanced. Trent XWB has external dimensions that are almost identical to Trent 900, making certification easier

Yet the A330NEO shows us how challenging a "simple" re-engine can be. For the A380 to be competitive vs. the 777x, it needs most, if not all, of the improvements I listed above. That requires selling 200+ aircraft. Also, EK relies on financing and the dearth of an A380 resale market will hurt the business case (for the 777x, IAI would certainly make another SF, so there is at least that).

I'm an aviation fan. But if you really want an efficient big plane, one needs a flying wing! :spin:

EK asked for an A380NEO while the A380 was in production. Airbus couldn't make the business case work then. With no factory (recall, it is already gutted to become an A321 production line), the business case becomes a billion or so Euros tougher.

744SPX wrote:
Matt6461 wrote:

The article only discusses Open Fan. Which makes no sense because Open Fan doesn't work at speeds typical for longhaul widebodies.




Yes it does. NASA demonstrated with the ATP program in the 80's that open rotor can maintain double digit efficiency gains over equivalent technology turbofans at speeds up to .90 mach.

They also demonstrated noise issues. There are two issues with open rotor:
1. Blade containment. The PW4000 issue at UA on the 777-200ERs shows this is not a trivial issue. Turboprops solve this by *huge* safety margins on the blades. Margins not achievable, in my opinion, with an open rotor.
2. Noise. There are multiple noise issues with unshrouded blades vs. shrouded blades. In my opinion, this is the main reason there is no open rotor aircraft as yet. This isn't a trivial technical challenge.
Link on noise:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2Ffuselage.

I've looked at fuel burn curves on the open rotors and the benefit drops off mightily above Mach 0.74. Please post a link on the data going to Mach 0.90. That would be new information for myself.

At Mach 0.78, there is a 26% advantage vs. the CFM-56-7 (old version, pre fuel burn reduction PiPs), or my math says about a 10% reduction vs. the PW1100G.
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files ... Report.pdf

Let's not extrapolate the best advantage. At widebody speeds, the open rotor, again per my math, burns 5% to 9% *more* fuel than a widebody GTF would. So be careful which engine you baseline for fuel burn reduction and what speed. If you look at Figure 28, you can see the Open rotor efficiency falls off a cliff after Mach 0.80. There is a reason all the "positive spin" data published on open rotors are in the Mach 0.73 to Mach 0.78 range. That is the range of supreme fuel efficiency advantage for the open rotor. As soon as blade tip mach effects change, the efficiency plummets. As someone who as actually selected engines for an airframe, these considerations are important. Don't compare with the out of date engines the early open rotors were bench-marked against (JT8D, I'm serious). Heck, the new reports benchmark vs. the CFM-56 for a reason, a flyable engine, with all the fuel sucking subsystems like anti-icing, they are on par with the LEAP or PW1100G at Mach 0.82. At Mach 0.78 they have a slight advantage. If benchmarked against a modern widebody engine with all the subsystems added to aid cruise fuel burn (e.g., look at the multiple turbine clearance control cooling loops on the GE9x, that is the competition, not the CFM-56-7).

Besides, the A380 cannot be made open rotor. That would require a completely different configuration. A flying wing would be a much better Open Rotor configuration.

The A380NEO must out-compete the 779 to sell. Even EK would have to think twice in that world.

I look at this as a customer, I want to get to my destination as fast as possible. Think about those customers from LAX, JFK, LHR, CDG, FRA, BOM, DEL, Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai and what is easiest for them? P2P. If someone opened up, as a hypothetical example, a LAX-BOM, say 3X/week direct flight, I would take that and hotel an extra day over any connection and so would my employer (if a business flight).

Now the European hubs seem determined to not expand to offer the connections needed to compete, but other hubs will. This will be like the re-engine of the 757 threads, something so interesting it will be discussed for years. It still won't happen.

Lightsaber
 
jimmy9irons
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:55 pm

What is the 777-10X everyone is referring to? Is there any scope to increase the 777-9?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:12 pm

What are the certification requirements regarding passenger windows, thinking of a blended wing. Could it be xxx A xxx|xxx A xxx with the | being either columns spaced at alternate frames or a dividing wall. That would allow for a double bubble sideways, basically two 767 hulls side by side.

A blended wing has passenger comfort issues the larger the distance off center line their seat is, this would be insurmountable for a
xxx A xxxxx A xxxxx A xxx arrangement, the window seat would be like a carnival ride, but for hours. Forward of the blended wing a 787 diameter hull could be used. I see a possibility of a 2nd deck in the blended wing portion that would be single aisle xxx A xxx with the upper aisle being a bit lower than the floor like on some RJ's.

The big problem is the structural efficiency of the circle on a pressure vessel is far better than double bubbles, ovals, or other shapes. But the optimum diameter for an airplane fuse is around the 787 size, above that the wasted space above the ceiling with its frontal drag ruins the efficiency.
 
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:19 pm

lightsaber wrote:
LDRA wrote:
The only realistic option is re-engine current A380 fleet with Tent XWB Advanced. Trent XWB has external dimensions that are almost identical to Trent 900, making certification easier

Yet the A330NEO shows us how challenging a "simple" re-engine can be. For the A380 to be competitive vs. the 777x, it needs most, if not all, of the improvements I listed above. That requires selling 200+ aircraft. Also, EK relies on financing and the dearth of an A380 resale market will hurt the business case (for the 777x, IAI would certainly make another SF, so there is at least that).

I think LDRA was talking about DC-8-70 style conversion. I don't see that as an easy fix either, but a simple re-engine project should technically be easier than restarting the production plus the whole NEO stuff added on.
 
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Since the A380 was developed, there has been just as much fuel burn reduction on the airframe side as the engine side in my opinion and I'm an engine nut:
1. Wingtip treatments
2. CFRP wings. This is a huge deal vs. the 777x, A350, and 787.
3. Electrical subsystems (maintenance cost reduction and cruise fuel burn)
.....


Yet the A330NEO shows us how challenging a "simple" re-engine can be.


Lightsaber


You probably need to explain what was so challenging about reengining the A330Neo - I think most of us are under the impression that it was a straightforward, low cost programme.
 
mikejepp
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:13 pm

How about a double deck 777X? Keep weights, wings, engines, etc the same. Trade range for increased capacity. Say it could seat an additional 100-150 passengers with 4000nm range. That would be useful for a lot of routes... trans-atlantic, middle east to/from Asia/Europe, intra-asia, etc.

Boeing once proposed a double deck 767. Maybe something similar.

https://aeroin.net/wp-content/uploads/2 ... 24x670.jpg
 
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zeke
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:00 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Since the A380 was developed, there has been just as much fuel burn reduction on the airframe side as the engine side in my opinion and I'm an engine nut:
1. Wingtip treatments
2. CFRP wings. This is a huge deal vs. the 777x, A350, and 787.
3. Electrical subsystems (maintenance cost reduction and cruise fuel burn)


In reality the “777x, A350, and 787” could not have been developed if Airbus had not developed the A380 and A400M first. Those aircraft required a lot of new technology to be developed, and suppliers reused iterations of the technology.

lightsaber wrote:
The same is true on widebodies. There must be a significant stretch of the A380 to justify any chance of production.


It can only go around 7 meters longer to stay under 80 m length.

lightsaber wrote:
DXB must compete with IST, ADD, and eventually Indian hubs (e.g., Navi Mumbai and hopefully a Navi Delhi, eventually) With other airport expansion, e.g., Daxing airport in Beijing, I just see little demand to get to the airport 20 minutes earlier to load a larger aircraft. Premium traffic tends towards the fewest connections (direct is preferred, my company now requires it on many flights and if you select to hub, the employee must justify the stop). The ME3 were new exciting hubs that did an excellent job on the Europe to Asia and Africa to Asia connections (as well as regional connections). EK will be around, but as already noted, one airline doesn't make a business case.


DXB does not need to worry about competition from IST, ADD, BOM, DEL, or PKX, those airports are basket cases constrained by inefficient legacy airspace and physical airport layout. Despite the passenger volume, DXB is very efficient if you look at how they are able to accommodate the high traffic volumes.

The A380 made DXB what it is today, that aircraft is responsible for the large increase in RPKs, it has sucked demand away airlines in Europe, North America, Africa, Asia, and the Pacific. It has enabled EK to grow at the expense of other airlines loosing market share. I remember seeing some US carriers having 6 widebodies on the ground in AMS going to India, they have disappeared.

lightsaber wrote:
Yet the A330NEO shows us how challenging a "simple" re-engine can be. For the A380 to be competitive vs. the 777x, it needs most, if not all, of the improvements I listed above.


I am not sure what you means about the A330 challenge, it’s now had 4 engine types certified to the airframe. I still think the interim step EK will do going forward will be to re-engine the A380 via STC. The majority of the 777X efficiency statistics come from increasing the number of passengers, it is still a old clunky heavy airframe. There is a lot of hype on a.net about it, in reality if the 777X was on point these discussions by STC would not even be started.

lightsaber wrote:
EK asked for an A380NEO while the A380 was in production. Airbus couldn't make the business case work then. With no factory (recall, it is already gutted to become an A321 production line), the business case becomes a billion or so Euros tougher.


If EK had known of the issues with the 777X and 787, I think EK would have had a different attitude to ordering the A380neo. STC has not been that reserved in public about the 5 year delay of EK EIS for the 777X. By the time the 777X gets into service with EK, that engine will have been flying for 8 years, it is not exactly new engine technology any more.

lightsaber wrote:
The A380NEO must out-compete the 779 to sell.


The article in the OP STC is not talking about an A380neo, he is talking about a new airframe (composite fuselage, composite wing, new engines). A new airframe will easily kick the 20+year old 777 design out of the park. The question is who pays for the development, Airbus won’t.


lightsaber wrote:
If someone opened up, as a hypothetical example, a LAX-BOM, say 3X/week direct flight, I would take that and hotel an extra day over any connection and so would my employer (if a business flight).


The reality is the A380 at EK has essentially sucked the demand out of the North America India market, it has essentially managed to drive every long haul Indian airline out of business. It has also successfully driven European and North American airlines market share to contract. And the majority of passengers that travel on that market see DXB as a luxury stopover, it is seen as being high status.
 
Ronaldo747
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:08 pm

In theory everything is possible. But this will not happen. Unless Airbus build it with only two engines. But I don't even think the Ultrafan is suitable for such aircraft.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:43 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Since the A380 was developed, there has been just as much fuel burn reduction on the airframe side as the engine side in my opinion and I'm an engine nut:
1. Wingtip treatments
2. CFRP wings. This is a huge deal vs. the 777x, A350, and 787.
3. Electrical subsystems (maintenance cost reduction and cruise fuel burn)


Do you have a good source quantifying the mx/fuel benefits of electrical subsystems? The first-principles rationale seems compelling but I've never seen a "counterfactual" comparison (e.g. what op cost delta for traditional 787) or apples-apples comparison (e.g. 787 vs. A350 subsystem-associated costs).

lightsaber wrote:
It is my opinion the A388 is too small for a double deck.


I think there's a good argument that A388 is far suboptimal but IMJ that mostly relates to the chosen cross section and capacity. Had Airbus chosen a smaller cross section (e.g. 8-6), it could have designed a much better plane at A388 capacity.

lightsaber wrote:
At Mach 0.78, there is a 26% advantage vs. the CFM-56-7 (old version, pre fuel burn reduction PiPs), or my math says about a 10% reduction vs. the PW1100G.
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files ... Report.pdf


Thank you.

lightsaber wrote:
I look at this as a customer, I want to get to my destination as fast as possible. Think about those customers from LAX, JFK, LHR, CDG, FRA, BOM, DEL, Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai and what is easiest for them? P2P. If someone opened up, as a hypothetical example, a LAX-BOM, say 3X/week direct flight, I would take that and hotel an extra day over any connection and so would my employer (if a business flight).


A321XLR is going to devastate EK's core business between Europe/NA and South Asia. Some Indian airline is going to fly BOM/DEL-[Europe primary/secondary/tertiary]. Additional EU airlines will fly [primary/secondary US] - LHR/CDG/FRA - [Secondary/Tertiary South Asia].
 
speedbird52
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:47 pm

I've been saying for years that even though smaller aircraft are decreasing the prevalence of hub-hub flights, connecting traffic is still huge business for airlines. Emirates high load factors is one example, and Qatar is another. The world is getting bigger, and more people will want to fly, but political will to build more airports or expand existing airports is very low. Some suggest environmentalist policy will decrease the demand for larger aircraft, I would argue it increases it. One of many reasons trains are so efficient is that they carry huge volumes of people. A well designed, full, VLA will generally be more fuel efficient per passenger than a smaller aircraft. In a world with many slot constrained airports, "more frequency" isn't always an option.

The A380 had multitudes of issues besides its size. It was too heavy, used obsolete engines, its wing was far too large for the aircraft, it required expensive airport modifications, and its cargo capacity was too low. I imagine in 15-20 years time there will be demand for another VLA, maybe not the size of an A380, but certainly bigger than a 777. Hopefully next time the aircraft is more suited to the market
 
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Matt6461
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:06 pm

Zeke wrote:
In reality the “777x, A350, and 787” could not have been developed if Airbus had not developed the A380


Can anybody name a single piece of intellectual property that Airbus (or a contractor) developed for the A380 and then transferred to Boeing to help the 787?

Zeke wrote:
I still think the interim step EK will do going forward will be to re-engine the A380 via STC.


Hiroo Onoda lasted 30 years after the Japanese Empire surrendered. It's been only ~4 years since Airbus definitively canned the A380NEO. Will A.net still have A380NEO holdouts in 2040's?
Last edited by Matt6461 on Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:11 pm

Astuteman wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... ifications

TXWB dry weight 7,277 kg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... (Trent_900)

T900 dry weight 6,246 kg

I understand the cruise SFC difference to be about 5%.


Leeham's view, at least as of their 2014 A380NEO analysis:

Image
 
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zeke
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:47 pm

Matt6461 wrote:
Can anybody name a single piece of intellectual property that Airbus (or a contractor) developed for the A380 and then transferred to Boeing to help the 787?


Composite aft pressure bulkhead, ADFX avionics network, cabin pressure controller, 4xVF Generating System, distributed electrical network, Electro-Hydraulic Actuation, 5000 psi hydraulic systems.
Last edited by zeke on Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:00 pm

Airline wants manufacturer to build aircraft perfect for their use and doesn't care if it makes sense for the manufacturer.

This is hardly a shocking thing to discover. Unless Emirates are willing to stump up the cash upfront to fund the entire development, certification, and construction of the assembly line. I doubt Airbus or anyone else is going to bite. History shows what happens when a manufacturer builds an airframe hyper-optimized for a single customer. It doesn't tend to go well even if the plane that is built is amazing in its niche.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:04 pm

zeke wrote:
Matt6461 wrote:
Can anybody name a single piece of intellectual property that Airbus (or a contractor) developed for the A380 and then transferred to Boeing to help the 787?


Composite aft pressure bulkhead, ADFX avionics network, cabin pressure controller, 4xVF Generating System, distributed electrical network.


What is the evidence that Airbus A380 work enabled Boeing to include any of these on the 787?
 
Ellofiend
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:22 pm

DXB, DOH and AUH will be largely waypoints on the route between West and East by the time there is any semblance of real demand for VLA's. I can't see EK sustaining their current pax numbers for too much longer tbh. Sure, they are a capacity leader driving down their prices, but ultimately I think pax will gradually shift to the nonstops (as they become more available and frequent) and these ME destinations just don't have the O&D numbers to support their current operations in the new age of long and thin ULRs.
 
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zeke
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:07 am

Matt6461 wrote:
What is the evidence that Airbus A380 work enabled Boeing to include any of these on the 787?


Airbus makes the composite rear pressure bulkhead for the 787, it developed the resin film infusion process to build the rear pressure bulkhead for the A380, https://www.compositesworld.com/article ... osite-part “ Comfortable with a composite solution for the A380, which saves at least 40 kg/88 lb over a metallic bulkhead, Airbus wanted to find a way to produce the part more cost-effectively. The company has specified resin film infusion (RFI), and once in production the bulkhead will be the largest manufactured RFI structure.” Airbus uses the same technology to build the 787 rear pressure bulkhead https://www.seattletimes.com/business/a ... oeing-787/
ADFX was developed for the A380, it is patented by Airbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avionics_ ... d_Ethernet
Nord-Micro and TTTech developed the cab8n pressure controller for the A380 and then the technology was used on the 787 https://www.tttech.com/wp-content/uploa ... y-A380.pdf
A380 more electric aircraft, VF and EHA https://www.aviationtoday.com/2001/10/0 ... -aircraft/
http://www.afaqscientific.com/icest2013/22-Eid76.pdf
“The Airbus A380 four-engine airliner became the first commercial application of a 5,000-psi system when it entered service in 2007. The integration of the 5,000-psi system on the world’s largest passenger aircraft contributed significantly to critical component weight and volume reduction in overall system design.” https://blog.parker.com/site/usa/en-US/ ... -weight-us 5000 psi hydraulic systems are used on the 787
 
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:14 am

astuteman wrote:
LDRA wrote:
The only realistic option is re-engine current A380 fleet with Tent XWB Advanced. Trent XWB has external dimensions that are almost identical to Trent 900, making certification easier


It may be the most realistic option - it has flown on this airframe after all. But the Trent XWB is a good 1000kg per engine heavier than the T900, thus adding a whopping 4 tonnes to OEW, plus almost certainly a beefing up of the wing to support the extra engine weight..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... ifications

TXWB dry weight 7,277 kg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... (Trent_900)

T900 dry weight 6,246 kg

I understand the cruise SFC difference to be about 5%.

Rgds


The primary load case on wing is upwards bending moment. Hanging heavier engines only helps to reduce that primary load(assuming same MTOW)
 
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zeke
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:22 am

LDRA wrote:
The primary load case on wing is upwards bending moment. Hanging heavier engines only helps to reduce that primary load(assuming same MTOW)


What is also not being stated is the more efficient engine will have a lower fuel fraction, and thus lower weights and lower fuel burns for a given sector, this will often result in a magnified benefit as the lower weights will allow for higher cruise levels. The larger surface area of the newer engine will also result in more engine drag from the higher surface area.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:51 am

zeke wrote:
Airbus uses the same technology to build the 787 rear pressure bulkhead https://www.seattletimes.com/business/a ... oeing-787/


I'm going to be generous and assume you're saying "Airbus" when you meant to say "EADS" (though this is an example of the correlation of organized writing with organized thinking). For the A380 program to have been necessary the the 787, you'd have to argue that Boeing could not have built the rear pressure bulkhead without EADS.

That's an obviously absurd proposition - it implies that Boeing could have built (or outsourced) CFRP wings but not a CFRP rear bukhead (which is much less complex, as many metal-winged airliners have CFRP bulkheads).

You're making a similarly muddled jump in every other aspect of technology. You assume that because a thing is similar, the contemporaneous work on A380 must have directly been used on 787. That's just not how technology works. Many companies are working at the same time on many implementations of generally-known basic/applied research. Let's look at your particular assertions:

Zeke wrote:
ADFX was developed for the A380, it is patented by Airbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avionics_ ... d_Ethernet


Even your own Wikipedia source says merely (and without citation) that the 787 uses a similar ethernet concept:

A similar implementation[clarify] of deterministic Ethernet is used on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.


Zeke wrote:
Nord-Micro and TTTech developed the cab8n pressure controller for the A380 and then the technology was used on the 787 https://www.tttech.com/wp-content/uploa ... y-A380.pdf


The words "787" and "Dreamliner" don't even appear in your source.

You appear to believe that because A380 used a system for a certain purpose, Boeing must have got the idea from Airbus. Again, that's completely muddled thinking. Do you believe only A380 designers were the only ones thinking of ways to increase and better control cabin pressure?

Even if 787 used the UTC system, you'd have to go further and show that UTC wouldn't have developed a system for the 787, absent the A380.

Zeke wrote:


Again, same basic intellectual error. A380 envisioned more electric stuff in 2001, so Boeing must have got the idea from A380 and it must have used that exact technology.

Zeke wrote:
“The Airbus A380 four-engine airliner became the first commercial application of a 5,000-psi system when it entered service in 2007.


Again, same basic intellectual error. Nobody would have understood the benefits of higher-psi hydraulic absent the A380.

This is like claiming "The A380 sought to reduce fuel burn. The 787 also sought to reduce fuel burn. Therefore, the 787's fuel burn reductions were are all from the A380."
Last edited by Matt6461 on Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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