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Qf648
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Mon Aug 22, 2022 1:54 am

Tim won’t get what he wants - it’s noise to light a fire under Boeing to get the 777x done.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:05 pm

Multi mega-hubs nearer the equator
Long legs of the 787/350,
Desire for non-stops, 1stops
Usually desire for frequency
Reengining of the 787/350 - (2030s?)

Demographic trends
Some limits on tourism,
Likely 30%(?) drop in business travel
Nationalistic political trends throughout the world

All headwinds for a truly VLA. How much of a niche will be left?
 
CowAnon
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:36 am

Clark is still making noises about an updated A380 or other jumbo jet, this time with UltraFan and minus windows:

    https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/airlines-will-need-larger-jets-like-updated-a380-emirates-clark/150263.article

    That is why Clark thinks the industry needs a larger new jet, like an updated A380 – an idea he previously floated. Airbus did not respond to a request for comment.

    Such a jet could delivery efficiencies through aerodynamic improvements and greater use of composite materials, and could be powered by Rolls-Royce’s future UltraFan engine, says Clark. R-R has said the UltraFan will be 10% more efficient than its Trent XWB, which powers the A350.

    “I don’t want windows… I can create individual windows with a camera,” Clark adds. “The weight that is built into an aircraft structure because of the windows all goes.”
 
Noshow
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:15 am

Zero chance to happen.
 
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PolarRoute
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:14 am

Don't know what's really in his mind with all the talks of reviving the double decker, when he's the one who pulled the plug on it.
If he was that desperate for a new superjumbo then, well, he could fund part of the development cost for AIB to get the suppliers and line going again, which he's not doing. And I'm pretty sure he knows the probability of realizing his pitch is near none, so.. why he keeps doing this is beyond me
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:19 am

I want a new A380! I want to see one in Delta colors!!

Probably won't happen though...the A380 is basically dead.
 
Noshow
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:34 am

I wonder what he knows about the 777X that we might not know about yet?
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:45 pm

Well, I for one hope that either Airbus or Boeing listen to him and create a true next generation aircraft. A blended wing design without windows - as Clark specified.
2040 is a long time from now. I surely can't predict what will happen by then, but some A-nuts seem to think they can.
 
JohanTally
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:06 pm

Noshow wrote:
I wonder what he knows about the 777X that we might not know about yet?

He knows that it holds 100-200 less passengers than his current VLA.
 
Opus99
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:18 pm

Windows with cameras is not the same. We need the windows please
 
Metchalus
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:44 pm

It makes marginally better sense to update the existing A380 than a clean sheet. Not that this would make much sense from Airbus' perspective right now.

New engines of course
A wing optimised for the aircraft's size.
Reconfigured staircases, perhaps have the current design for those who want it.

The biggest issue is financing. They need maybe 70-100 orders with heavy pull-out fees, to even get serious about launching this thing.

On the plus side maybe this could lead to the return of the A380-900, or even the freighter but I wouldn't bet on that one.

The mostly likely customer other than EK is BA. Other than that maybe Singapore and the new Saudi venture.

As a dark horse maybe KLM, if the Dutch government are going to keep on going with their movements cap, then KL might be intl the market for bigger aircraft.


Its more likely that if EK wants A380 sized aircraft in the next decade they need to stop retiring aircraft at 12 years and start doing D checks.
 
Noshow
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:59 pm

The A380-production infrastructure is just not there anymore.
 
Kikko19
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:38 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Windows with cameras is not the same. We need the windows please

Screens, wiring and cameras would be much more heavy risky and complex over pieces of plexiglass. Or not?
 
JohanTally
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:49 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Windows with cameras is not the same. We need the windows please

Screens, wiring and cameras would be much more heavy risky and complex over pieces of plexiglass. Or not?

Most A380s already have cameras and screens. My assumption is you would have maybe three or four cameras facing different directions and you would be able to choose on the IFE screen.
 
Kikko19
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:46 am

JohanTally wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Windows with cameras is not the same. We need the windows please

Screens, wiring and cameras would be much more heavy risky and complex over pieces of plexiglass. Or not?

Most A380s already have cameras and screens. My assumption is you would have maybe three or four cameras facing different directions and you would be able to choose on the IFE screen.
ok if you mean the entertainment screens... I thought they would apply screens instead of the windows. A bit of claustrophobic environment but probably feasible and acceptable by many
 
Noshow
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:17 am

I would try to avoid windowless passenger aircraft. I enjoy looking outside even at night.
In case of an emergency, say an overrun, I want to be able to see myself where there is a fire or similar even if the electrical system is not working.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:53 am

Well windows aren't just the weight of the panes.
As they are cut-outs in the fuselage they need reinforcing around them. And potentially the structure could be designed differently if you didn't have those holes in there.
 
chonetsao
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:51 am

Without window, passengers are essentially livestock cargo. That is inhumane.

I will boycott Emirates if they start to push this windowless A380 too hard.
 
JohanTally
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:37 pm

There are concepts where the entire sidewall is an led screen showing the outside.

https://www.cnbc.com/2014/10/28/windowl ... louds.html
 
randomdude83
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:11 pm

JohanTally wrote:
There are concepts where the entire sidewall is an led screen showing the outside.

https://www.cnbc.com/2014/10/28/windowl ... louds.html


This is what i thought they should do if they go windowless. It would open the cabin very well but the heat/durability from all these screens would be a concern. cool concept.
 
JohanTally
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:21 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
There are concepts where the entire sidewall is an led screen showing the outside.

https://www.cnbc.com/2014/10/28/windowl ... louds.html


This is what i thought they should do if they go windowless. It would open the cabin very well but the heat/durability from all these screens would be a concern. cool concept.

I could definitely see it having some drawbacks. I'd pick a 360° view on my IFE screen over a traditional window.
 
tomcat
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:41 pm

I'm wondering what will go first: the passenger windows or the cockpit windows.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:33 pm

CowAnon wrote:
Clark is still making noises about an updated A380 or other jumbo jet, this time with UltraFan and minus windows:

    https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/airlines-will-need-larger-jets-like-updated-a380-emirates-clark/150263.article

    That is why Clark thinks the industry needs a larger new jet, like an updated A380 – an idea he previously floated. Airbus did not respond to a request for comment.

    Such a jet could delivery efficiencies through aerodynamic improvements and greater use of composite materials, and could be powered by Rolls-Royce’s future UltraFan engine, says Clark. R-R has said the UltraFan will be 10% more efficient than its Trent XWB, which powers the A350.

    “I don’t want windows… I can create individual windows with a camera,” Clark adds. “The weight that is built into an aircraft structure because of the windows all goes.”


So borings

A380 is dead and sir Time is living jn past.

Airbus news leadership not finananancially irresponsible to spend so much money on a big jet and limited sails.

A380 is stain fail legacy of Leahys ego.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:19 pm

I cannot understand Emirates obsession with the A380. Maybe because theyre known for being the largest operator of the A380, an airplane known for being very comfortable? "A380-Effect". They may fear to loose this reputation.
Aside from this: a four row stretch will make the 777-9 a real 400 seater in Emirates configuration, this is only around 80-90 seats less than the A380-800. This is a good amount of seats but much less than many would think.
The A380 may be double deck, but the cabin lenght/fuselage lenght ratio is much better on the 777, less "dead space" before door 1 and aft the last door.

The A380 is 73m long but the Main Deck cabin is only 50,68m, the Upper Deck cabin lenght is around 38m, but only allows for 8 abreast instead of 10, so 25% less, which can be translated to 28,5m, which means the A380 has a cabin lenght of 79,18m combined and simplified (if everything was 10 abreast).

The 777-10 on the other hand would be a hell of a long plane. If my calculations are correct the cabin lenght of that beast would be 65,26m, which means the A380 cabin lenght is only a little more than 20% bigger.
Considering the A380 is a whopping 60% heavier this is not that much. Even a re-winged re-engined A380 would be considerably heavier than the 777X.

So I think Emirates should just live with a ~17% capacity penalty but have a MUCH more efficient plane, plus 80-90 seats less to sell. Its not that their A380s are sold out on the majority of routes all the time, many empty seats being flown around and many low fares too I think. I dont think theres a lot of A380 routes on Emirates that have an average Loadfactor of much more than 400 Pax per flight. So why fly around all those empty seats?

I can see Emirates go for a 777-10 in the future and from the point this airplane becomes available only order the 777-10 and also introduce the A350-1000, to keep a Balance between Boeing and Airbus in the fleet.
 
randomdude83
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:33 pm

DLHAM wrote:
I cannot understand Emirates obsession with the A380. Maybe because theyre known for being the largest operator of the A380, an airplane known for being very comfortable? "A380-Effect". They may fear to loose this reputation.
Aside from this: a four row stretch will make the 777-9 a real 400 seater in Emirates configuration, this is only around 80-90 seats less than the A380-800. This is a good amount of seats but much less than many would think.
The A380 may be double deck, but the cabin lenght/fuselage lenght ratio is much better on the 777, less "dead space" before door 1 and aft the last door.

The A380 is 73m long but the Main Deck cabin is only 50,68m, the Upper Deck cabin lenght is around 38m, but only allows for 8 abreast instead of 10, so 25% less, which can be translated to 28,5m, which means the A380 has a cabin lenght of 79,18m combined and simplified (if everything was 10 abreast).

The 777-10 on the other hand would be a hell of a long plane. If my calculations are correct the cabin lenght of that beast would be 65,26m, which means the A380 cabin lenght is only a little more than 20% bigger.
Considering the A380 is a whopping 60% heavier this is not that much. Even a re-winged re-engined A380 would be considerably heavier than the 777X.

So I think Emirates should just live with a ~17% capacity penalty but have a MUCH more efficient plane, plus 80-90 seats less to sell. Its not that their A380s are sold out on the majority of routes all the time, many empty seats being flown around and many low fares too I think. I dont think theres a lot of A380 routes on Emirates that have an average Loadfactor of much more than 400 Pax per flight. So why fly around all those empty seats?

I can see Emirates go for a 777-10 in the future and from the point this airplane becomes available only order the 777-10 and also introduce the A350-1000, to keep a Balance between Boeing and Airbus in the fleet.


A business as large as EK can not just run on ego and image. That alone can cause money bleed and no airlines survives that in the end.

You can definitely assume that the a380 works for them and their customer base likely choses EK for the A380 comfort and it brings a positive experience that is a keeper.

They're likely to go for the 777-10 and they do have the 779 coming in to allow for more efficient flying but also in addition if airbus can agree to re engine current a380s and offer savings inside. thats a good contract to win for airbus without investing much into there own infrastructure to build anything new.

just a hanger for upgrades and 12 more years of operation for EK with hopefully 10% less spending. its not bad thinking on Sir clark's part but airbus/RR is the one that has to figure how to make money out of that.
 
Noshow
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:41 pm

From a practical standpoint they could run their A380 fleet much longer than originally planned if they feel like needing very big aircraft. Say instead of 12 years 24 years or even longer? Technically they would perfectly work and leasing companies will be happy. A lot of the other airlines A380 fleet will be retired by then so spare parts should not be an issue.
 
JohanTally
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:05 pm

Noshow wrote:
From a practical standpoint they could run their A380 fleet much longer than originally planned if they feel like needing very big aircraft. Say instead of 12 years 24 years or even longer? Technically they would perfectly work and leasing companies will be happy. A lot of the other airlines A380 fleet will be retired by then so spare parts should not be an issue.

There are some parts that have a set life expectancy. While there are tons of spares some parts need to remain in production to properly support an airliner especially such a unique single family aircraft. It's unlikely the scale will be there to economically extend the life of the fleet.
 
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ER757
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:48 pm

JohanTally wrote:
Noshow wrote:
From a practical standpoint they could run their A380 fleet much longer than originally planned if they feel like needing very big aircraft. Say instead of 12 years 24 years or even longer? Technically they would perfectly work and leasing companies will be happy. A lot of the other airlines A380 fleet will be retired by then so spare parts should not be an issue.

There are some parts that have a set life expectancy. While there are tons of spares some parts need to remain in production to properly support an airliner especially such a unique single family aircraft. It's unlikely the scale will be there to economically extend the life of the fleet.

True enough but even with the situation as you describe, they could extend a fair bit past 12 years. Maybe not 25 but certainly longer than 12. There's quite a few 757's and A300's still in service.
 
JohanTally
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:05 am

ER757 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
Noshow wrote:
From a practical standpoint they could run their A380 fleet much longer than originally planned if they feel like needing very big aircraft. Say instead of 12 years 24 years or even longer? Technically they would perfectly work and leasing companies will be happy. A lot of the other airlines A380 fleet will be retired by then so spare parts should not be an issue.

There are some parts that have a set life expectancy. While there are tons of spares some parts need to remain in production to properly support an airliner especially such a unique single family aircraft. It's unlikely the scale will be there to economically extend the life of the fleet.

True enough but even with the situation as you describe, they could extend a fair bit past 12 years. Maybe not 25 but certainly longer than 12. There's quite a few 757's and A300's still in service.

It's tricky because the engine they have the most of are the GP7270 but are the oldest and they only have 30 or so Trent powered A380s which are more likely to have support long term IMHO.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:48 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
Well windows aren't just the weight of the panes.
As they are cut-outs in the fuselage they need reinforcing around them. And potentially the structure could be designed differently if you didn't have those holes in there.


The window belt is a very heavy, complex, stress and fatigue sensitive lump of reinforced holes. He is absolutely right to imagine there would be huge weight and maintenance savings by eliminating windows and using fancy camera/IFE systems instead. From an engineering standpoint; it's a pretty obvious step to take. I have always thought this could happen at some point...
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:53 pm

JohanTally wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
There are concepts where the entire sidewall is an led screen showing the outside.

https://www.cnbc.com/2014/10/28/windowl ... louds.html


This is what i thought they should do if they go windowless. It would open the cabin very well but the heat/durability from all these screens would be a concern. cool concept.

I could definitely see it having some drawbacks. I'd pick a 360° view on my IFE screen over a traditional window.


VR headsets would be an interesting and already technically feasible possibility... not sure how some would react to that, though... :shock: :lol:
 
Noshow
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:05 pm

Even IFE moving maps get interrupted by endless advertisements all the time. There will be never a true window feature able to replace a window experience. Some people don't care about food others not about views. But some do. Don't be that airline to forget about us. I will book elsewhere.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:42 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
Well windows aren't just the weight of the panes.
As they are cut-outs in the fuselage they need reinforcing around them. And potentially the structure could be designed differently if you didn't have those holes in there.


The window belt is a very heavy, complex, stress and fatigue sensitive lump of reinforced holes. He is absolutely right to imagine there would be huge weight and maintenance savings by eliminating windows and using fancy camera/IFE systems instead. From an engineering standpoint; it's a pretty obvious step to take. I have always thought this could happen at some point...


I think I've written this before somewhere but someone once told me the 3 things airlines don't like are:
- Windows (excess weight)
- Pilots (excess costs and you could save most of the cockpit - anyone willing to pay extra for a front window seat....)
- Landing gears (excess weight when you are flying)

The first 2 can be eliminated (see cargo aircraft and drones). I think the last one would be a bigger challenge.
 
Noshow
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:08 am

Windows have been enlarged recently: On the 787, 747-8, 777X and A350, although only to be dimmed by electronic window blinds. Manufacturers seem to be aware that windows are important to passengers.
 
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william
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:44 pm

Unless Airbus puts a long hump on the A350-1000 for more pax capacity, then sorry Emirates, should have taken the deal when Airbus was offered to you.
.
Wish I could find a way to post the pic from this link four years ago of the 777 with a hump.
viewtopic.php?t=1383997
 
WayexTDI
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:16 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Without window, passengers are essentially livestock cargo. That is inhumane.

I will boycott Emirates if they start to push this windowless A380 too hard.

In a lot of economy seats, passengers are very close to being livestock cargo already. Not much change
 
CowAnon
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:00 am

Matt6461 wrote:
744SPX wrote:

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/198 ... 003194.pdf

Page 2 for graphic representation; 10-12% better than turbofan at mach .85.
Page 75 for counterrotating blade efficiency at high mach.
Tested to mach .89


This study cites a 2012 analysis for 12% better cruise SFC at mach .80. So it seems like the SFC gap is narrowing with time (albeit the nacelle drag factor increasing).

The study explains:

Cruise Mach numbers, M, of airliners range from 0.7 to 0.9. For the higher end of this range, propeller losses increase markedly (shocks forming in tip regions) so open rotor engines are typically being designed to run at a maximum of about M=0.78, taking full advantage of swept scimitar shaped blades to mitigate compressibility effects [2].


I'd be surprised, given the relative maturity of fluid computational design, if there's much room for further progress on compressibility drag mitigation in blade design. Could be wrong, of course.


I disagree with how the study's author interpreted the citation used for that quote (a 2015 NASA report). Page 8, figure 17 of the 2015 report is in fact very similar to page 75 of the NASA Advanced Turboprop Project report from 1988, which 744SPX cited. The graph from the 1988 NASA report shows the propulsive efficiency at 82% at M0.60, peaking at 85-86% between M0.70 and M0.80, and then dropping to a "mere" 83% at M0.85. The 2015 NASA report's graph shows a peak of 87% at M0.73, a high plateau of 86% from there to M0.80, and then a steeper drop, but still at 80-81% efficiency at M0.85.

Image Image

The efficiency decline as the speed increases to Mach 0.85 appears more dramatic than it is because the vertical axis zooms in on the data points. If the efficiency axis spanned all the way from 0 to 100 percent, the decline would (correctly) be seen as modest. (I can't vouch for propfan performance between M0.85 and M0.90.)

The theory that turbofans are more efficient than propfans at high cruise speeds relies on propfan propulsive efficiency dropping greatly with higher speeds. If propfan efficiency is only dropping slightly, turbofan efficiency needs to improve that much more to match or beat propfans as cruise speeds go up.

We can compare the efficiencies of the latest generation of turbofans against projected propfan performance at Mach 0.78. A 2019 AIN article listed the LEAP-1A and PW1400G turbofans as having an SFC (probably in cruise) of 0.51 pounds/pound-thrust/hour. A 2013 NASA study estimated a propfan with similar engine core technology would have a top-of-climb SFC of 0.415 lb/lbf/hr. That gives the propfan an 18.6% SFC advantage at M0.78. If we use the 2015 NASA report results and assign a propfan efficiency of 86%, that implies a turbofan efficiency of (86%)*(1-0.186)=70% at M0.78. If as the 2015 graph shows, the propfan efficiency drops to 80%, then for the turbofan efficiency to match the propfan efficiency at M0.85, the turbofan has to improve by (80%-70%)/(0.70)=14.3%. And the required improvement is even worse if you use the 1988 graph as the guideline: (83%-70%)/(0.70)=18.6%.

I couldn't find a graph of aircraft drag vs. Mach number online, but my intuition tells me that if a turbofan can improve its performance by 14-19 percent or more just by increasing cruise speed from M0.78 to M0.85, aircraft owners would push even their narrowbody planes to fly at M0.85. Since M0.78 is more typical, I think it's safe to assume that propfan engines retain their advantage over turbofans at Mach 0.85.
 
strfyr51
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Re: [CNN interview 12/8] Emirates wants Airbus to build a new version of A380

Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:43 am

Aseem747 wrote:
777-9 is just a direct successor of one of the smallest planes in the current Emirates fleet after all. If it'll only seat 364 people then the 777-10 will still fall short of the A380 by a pretty big margin for a premium configuration. No new A380 means Emirates will have to change themselves significantly in the future as no other air frame except maybe 747 can truly replicate this airplane.

with new environment rules coming left right and center even flying a 4 engine jet might become problematic without new engine emissions technology. and No engine manufacturer is going to build or design an engine for a 1 off airplane like the A380. Especially now that the 747 has bit the dust. There's no economical reason to invest the resources for the airplane model when they can design and build long range twins that are as economical as the A380 per seat Kilometer. and? as Airbus never built a freighter version of the A380? the entire effort is pointless. Emirates might need to get into reality!

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Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos