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doug
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DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:52 pm

DFW has been knocking but they seem to be right there if not outright surpassing Deltas ATL hub in terms of daily flights take today for example each airline respectively DFW 934 ATL 829.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:58 pm

It's been a matter of time. The DFW metro has been growing very fast, and DFW itself is a very centrally located hub. Plus with the post-lockdown spur in domestic travel, we see the central hubs grow the most i.e. Dallas and Denver.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:08 pm

Measure seats, not flights. Better yet, ASMs. Gauge and stage length do matter.
 
LongLayover
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:33 pm

AA @ DFW is winning in daily flights. DL @ ATL is winning in the amount of seats per day. AA did not have 6x 752, 4x 753, and 3x 763 between DFW-MCO today, but DL did. (AA doesn't fly those planes anymore anyways lol) ATL has the advantage of FL being just south and the rest of the east/southeast/northeast being north of them. AA does have a lot of capacity and flights out of DFW, but it does not match DL in ATL in seats.
 
CIDFlyer
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:42 pm

Just curious how many flights at CLT today? AA really bookends the south with great coverage between DFW and CLT
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5319
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:59 pm

CIDFlyer wrote:
Just curious how many flights at CLT today? AA really bookends the south with great coverage between DFW and CLT


CLT had 574 on schedule from AA today.

AA Hub for today August 22:

DFW: 771
ORD: 351
CLT: 574
PHL: 235
MIA: 292
LAX: 115

Delta Hub flights for today August 22:

ATL: 754
DTW: 299
MSP :301
JFK : 205
LGA: 231
SLC: 249
SEA: 148
LAX: 139

United Hub flights for today August 22:

DEN: 445
SFO: 219
LAX:110
ORD: 458
IAD: 201
EWR: 372
IAH:384
 
SESGDL
Posts: 3294
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:09 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
It's been a matter of time. The DFW metro has been growing very fast, and DFW itself is a very centrally located hub. Plus with the post-lockdown spur in domestic travel, we see the central hubs grow the most i.e. Dallas and Denver.


I don’t think so. DL’s capacity is still considerably smaller than it should be given the labor shortage and that DL more aggressively retired airplanes. DL’s still probably nearly 20% below where it should be at ATL. I think next year we’ll see things return more to what they used to look like at ATL. And ATL is also one of the fastest growing areas of the country too. No reason to think that DFW is suddenly going to outgrow similarly sized cities and hubs. AA took a different approach from UA and DL during the pandemic. But UA and DL are now looking at growing back capacity and recapturing share that was lost to AA from its superior schedule.

Jeremy
 
GSPSPOT
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:21 pm

The metroplex dwarfs Atlanta. Just the facts.
 
USAirALB
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:23 pm

burnsie28 wrote:
CIDFlyer wrote:
Just curious how many flights at CLT today? AA really bookends the south with great coverage between DFW and CLT


CLT had 574 on schedule from AA today.

AA Hub for today August 22:

DFW: 771
ORD: 351
CLT: 574
PHL: 235
MIA: 292
LAX: 115

Delta Hub flights for today August 22:

ATL: 754
DTW: 299
MSP :301
JFK : 205
LGA: 231
SLC: 249
SEA: 148
LAX: 139

United Hub flights for today August 22:

DEN: 445
SFO: 219
LAX:110
ORD: 458
IAD: 201
EWR: 372
IAH:384

Do you know the numbers for [email protected] and [email protected]?

Interesting to see CLT is still down from its pre-pandemic high. I believe at one point during Summer 2019, they had 700 departures there on peak days.

Also interesting to see that DL is now the top carrier by departures at LAX. IIRC pre-pandemic AA was.
 
mikejepp
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:51 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Measure seats, not flights. Better yet, ASMs. Gauge and stage length do matter.


Oh really? So if I'm a passenger buying a ticket, I'm better served by a hub with bigger airplanes? Or more flights?
 
doug
Topic Author
Posts: 720
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:59 pm

mikejepp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Measure seats, not flights. Better yet, ASMs. Gauge and stage length do matter.


Oh really? So if I'm a passenger buying a ticket, I'm better served by a hub with bigger airplanes? Or more flights?

Couldn’t said it better
 
Manderson12
Posts: 109
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:23 am

The only measurement that really counts at the end of the day is the passenger count. What are the five busiest airports by passenger counts at this point in the USA. Who has the most aircraft movements, what airline hub has the most flights are important, but airports are ultimately rated by passenger counts.
 
ryanov
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:41 am

mikejepp wrote:
Oh really? So if I'm a passenger buying a ticket, I'm better served by a hub with bigger airplanes? Or more flights?


I suppose it depends on the passenger. Given the tone, I can imagine you don't think so, but I avoid flying on RJs altogether for myriad reasons, so I don't agree with you.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:42 am

We measure city size by population. Why not measure a hub by the airline’s set number of seats? (Yeah you could also measure by passengers, technically).
 
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flyer1225
Posts: 92
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:47 am

mikejepp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Measure seats, not flights. Better yet, ASMs. Gauge and stage length do matter.


Oh really? So if I'm a passenger buying a ticket, I'm better served by a hub with bigger airplanes? Or more flights?


Look, they're different metrics and both important in different contexts. One's measuring the busiest hubs, while the other's measuring hubs by pax volume.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 7234
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:51 am

burnsie28 wrote:
CIDFlyer wrote:
Just curious how many flights at CLT today? AA really bookends the south with great coverage between DFW and CLT


CLT had 574 on schedule from AA today.

AA Hub for today August 22:

DFW: 771
ORD: 351
CLT: 574
PHL: 235
MIA: 292
LAX: 115

Delta Hub flights for today August 22:

ATL: 754
DTW: 299
MSP :301
JFK : 205
LGA: 231
SLC: 249
SEA: 148
LAX: 139

United Hub flights for today August 22:

DEN: 445
SFO: 219
LAX:110
ORD: 458
IAD: 201
EWR: 372
IAH:384


Good stats! How does it work out for seat count?
 
JohanTally
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:57 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
burnsie28 wrote:
CIDFlyer wrote:
Just curious how many flights at CLT today? AA really bookends the south with great coverage between DFW and CLT


CLT had 574 on schedule from AA today.

AA Hub for today August 22:

DFW: 771
ORD: 351
CLT: 574
PHL: 235
MIA: 292
LAX: 115

Delta Hub flights for today August 22:

ATL: 754
DTW: 299
MSP :301
JFK : 205
LGA: 231
SLC: 249
SEA: 148
LAX: 139

United Hub flights for today August 22:

DEN: 445
SFO: 219
LAX:110
ORD: 458
IAD: 201
EWR: 372
IAH:384


Good stats! How does it work out for seat count?

AA has been upgauging quite a lot lately so the passenger count might not be as far apart as some may think. At CLT there are flights that used to exclusively CR9s are now on A321s.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 836
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:10 am

flyer1225 wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Measure seats, not flights. Better yet, ASMs. Gauge and stage length do matter.


Oh really? So if I'm a passenger buying a ticket, I'm better served by a hub with bigger airplanes? Or more flights?


Look, they're different metrics and both important in different contexts. One's measuring the busiest hubs, while the other's measuring hubs by pax volume.

Number of flights, and number of passangers are both relevent to discussions comparing how busy airports are, but ASM is meaningless.
 
incitatus
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:33 am

Aliqiout wrote:
Number of flights, and number of passangers are both relevent to discussions comparing how busy airports are, but ASM is meaningless.


I give it that every metric is important. But I agree ASM is not as relevant as it was. It used to be associated with revenue -> longer flights had higher fares. Nowadays some short haul markets in the Midwest have average fares $200. Many transcon markets at 10 times the distance have average fares between $250 and $300.
 
USAirALB
Posts: 3248
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:33 am

JohanTally wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
burnsie28 wrote:

CLT had 574 on schedule from AA today.

AA Hub for today August 22:

DFW: 771
ORD: 351
CLT: 574
PHL: 235
MIA: 292
LAX: 115

Delta Hub flights for today August 22:

ATL: 754
DTW: 299
MSP :301
JFK : 205
LGA: 231
SLC: 249
SEA: 148
LAX: 139

United Hub flights for today August 22:

DEN: 445
SFO: 219
LAX:110
ORD: 458
IAD: 201
EWR: 372
IAH:384


Good stats! How does it work out for seat count?

AA has been upgauging quite a lot lately so the passenger count might not be as far apart as some may think. At CLT there are flights that used to exclusively CR9s are now on A321s.

Indeed. Countless small/medium sized cities are seeing A321s from CLT this fall...many for the first time.

I noticed a similar trend at PHX, but on a smaller scale. PHX-TUS/PSP/RNO/OMA all are seeing A321s for the first time (I believe) on from PHX this fall.
 
Detroit313
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:05 am

No surprise. And that is without all the new gates that are going to open in the next few years.
 
SESGDL
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:34 am

JohanTally wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
burnsie28 wrote:

CLT had 574 on schedule from AA today.

AA Hub for today August 22:

DFW: 771
ORD: 351
CLT: 574
PHL: 235
MIA: 292
LAX: 115

Delta Hub flights for today August 22:

ATL: 754
DTW: 299
MSP :301
JFK : 205
LGA: 231
SLC: 249
SEA: 148
LAX: 139

United Hub flights for today August 22:

DEN: 445
SFO: 219
LAX:110
ORD: 458
IAD: 201
EWR: 372
IAH:384


Good stats! How does it work out for seat count?

AA has been upgauging quite a lot lately so the passenger count might not be as far apart as some may think. At CLT there are flights that used to exclusively CR9s are now on A321s.


All airlines are upguaging these days. This will only continue with the phaseout of 50 seaters. Last I saw CLT was still a majority RJ hub, DFW was close to 60/40 mainline to RJ whereas ATL was closer to 80/20 mainline to regional.

Jeremy
 
SESGDL
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:37 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
The metroplex dwarfs Atlanta. Just the facts.


Total overexaggeration. Dwarfs? DFW is certainly larger but not by enough to say it dwarfs it. ATL actually has higher O&D, so the size of the metro area is only one factor among many that’s important when considering the size of an airlines hubs.

Jeremy
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:42 am

.... I always love a good a.net $%^@ measuring contest. When everyone debates various metrics. At the end of the day, the facts/metrics are what they are however saying one particular metric is the end-all, be-all is highly subjective.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 7234
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:00 am

SESGDL wrote:
GSPSPOT wrote:
The metroplex dwarfs Atlanta. Just the facts.


Total overexaggeration. Dwarfs? DFW is certainly larger but not by enough to say it dwarfs it. ATL actually has higher O&D, so the size of the metro area is only one factor among many that’s important when considering the size of an airlines hubs.

Jeremy


If you are comparing ATL to DFW airports by themselves, then yes.

However, the Atlanta area has one airport. The DFW area has two. When DFW and DAL are combined, the O&D is higher than ATL.

International O&D is slightly higher in ATL but its almost negligible. Still, given the DFW area has a significantly larger immigrant community that is impressive for Atlanta.
Last edited by LAXdude1023 on Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 7234
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:02 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
.... I always love a good a.net $%^@ measuring contest. When everyone debates various metrics. At the end of the day, the facts/metrics are what they are however saying one particular metric is the end-all, be-all is highly subjective.


To be honest, I just want to know what the seat count is amongst the hubs for a comparison. DEN, for example, has a significant number of flights but its almost half RJ.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 1179
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:06 am

SESGDL wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Good stats! How does it work out for seat count?

AA has been upgauging quite a lot lately so the passenger count might not be as far apart as some may think. At CLT there are flights that used to exclusively CR9s are now on A321s.


All airlines are upguaging these days. This will only continue with the phaseout of 50 seaters. Last I saw CLT was still a majority RJ hub, DFW was close to 60/40 mainline to RJ whereas ATL was closer to 80/20 mainline to regional.

Jeremy

Currently AA mainline at CLT has over 100 more daily departures vs AA regionals and is also a 60/40 split. AA has actually started the process of taking over a former regional baggage room belt on E concourse. This pilot shortage may have some lasting effects on the industry.
 
SESGDL
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:47 am

JohanTally wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
AA has been upgauging quite a lot lately so the passenger count might not be as far apart as some may think. At CLT there are flights that used to exclusively CR9s are now on A321s.


All airlines are upguaging these days. This will only continue with the phaseout of 50 seaters. Last I saw CLT was still a majority RJ hub, DFW was close to 60/40 mainline to RJ whereas ATL was closer to 80/20 mainline to regional.

Jeremy

Currently AA mainline at CLT has over 100 more daily departures vs AA regionals and is also a 60/40 split. AA has actually started the process of taking over a former regional baggage room belt on E concourse. This pilot shortage may have some lasting effects on the industry.


Can you post the actual totals?

Jeremy
 
JohanTally
Posts: 1179
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Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:59 am

SESGDL wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

All airlines are upguaging these days. This will only continue with the phaseout of 50 seaters. Last I saw CLT was still a majority RJ hub, DFW was close to 60/40 mainline to RJ whereas ATL was closer to 80/20 mainline to regional.

Jeremy

Currently AA mainline at CLT has over 100 more daily departures vs AA regionals and is also a 60/40 split. AA has actually started the process of taking over a former regional baggage room belt on E concourse. This pilot shortage may have some lasting effects on the industry.


Can you post the actual totals?

Jeremy

I just have the regional numbers but there are 223 scheduled AA regional departures today at CLT. For the rest of the month the highest regional daily departures is 234 on Sunday August 28th. In September the regional number increases slightly with a peak of 252 regional daily departures but also 12 days with less than 205 departures. Mainline is the dominant operation at CLT right now and will likely continue at least through the end of the year.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1810
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:33 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
The metroplex dwarfs Atlanta. Just the facts.
I wouldn't say dwarfs. The Metroplex is 30% larger than the ATL area.

NYC dwarfs the Metroplex and Atlanta. The Metroplex does not dwarf ATL.
 
micstatic
Posts: 851
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:36 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
GSPSPOT wrote:
The metroplex dwarfs Atlanta. Just the facts.
I wouldn't say dwarfs. The Metroplex is 30% larger than the ATL area.

NYC dwarfs the Metroplex and Atlanta. The Metroplex does not dwarf ATL.


He made me look. But this is true. The dfw metro does not dwarf it.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5664
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:58 am

all of this banter is ell and good, However?? What are the revenue Passenger Kilometers/Miles flown out of the Hubs? That will determine who did what to whom.
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5319
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:22 pm

USAirALB wrote:
burnsie28 wrote:
CIDFlyer wrote:
Just curious how many flights at CLT today? AA really bookends the south with great coverage between DFW and CLT


CLT had 574 on schedule from AA today.

Flights / Average Seats Per Departure

AA Hub for today August 22:

DFW: 771 / 135.2
ORD: 351 / 116.8
CLT: 574 / 129.1
PHL: 235 / 125.3
MIA: 292 / 160.6
LAX: 115 / 151.7
PHX: 211 / 139.7
DCA: 256 / 101.6

Delta Hub flights for today August 22:

ATL: 754 / 157.3
DTW: 299 / 121.2
MSP :301 / 126.2
JFK : 205 / 142.7
LGA: 231 / 94.0
SLC: 249 / 126.7
SEA: 148 / 137.0
LAX: 139 / 152.1

United Hub flights for today August 22:

DEN: 445 / 120.1
SFO: 219 / 160.6
LAX:110 / 161.2
ORD: 458 / 117.4
IAD: 201 / 123.8
EWR: 372 / 134.8
IAH:384 / 124.2

Do you know the numbers for [email protected] and [email protected]?

Interesting to see CLT is still down from its pre-pandemic high. I believe at one point during Summer 2019, they had 700 departures there on peak days.

Also interesting to see that DL is now the top carrier by departures at LAX. IIRC pre-pandemic AA was.


Ahh, my fault, forgot them I've added PHX and DCA to the list. I've also added Average Seats per departure to the list.
 
747fan
Posts: 1013
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:40 am

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:14 pm

Here's some more specifics with the mainline/regional counts in regards to AA/DFW, here's the count for today 8/23...
Mainline - 491
Regional - 278
Should note that 379 of those mainline flights are on large narrowbodies (738/A321). So DFW has much higher gauge compared to 5+ years ago when it was ~300 MD80's a day instead.
For comparison, here's CLT today...
Mainline - 338 (242 large narrowbody)
Regional - 223
 
kickazzz2000
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:53 pm

It's good to see AA upgauging at CLT. It's truly impressive to see DL at ATL sending 752's to places like SAV, RDU, BNA, ORF and 739's to the GSO's and GSP's of the world. Not to mention the 752 and 753 lift to FL.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 3271
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:56 pm

mikejepp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Measure seats, not flights. Better yet, ASMs. Gauge and stage length do matter.


Oh really? So if I'm a passenger buying a ticket, I'm better served by a hub with bigger airplanes? Or more flights?

One with more seats, which usually means bigger planes.
More seat available for you, means more chances to find a flight on a certain day.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 3271
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:01 pm

GSPSPOT wrote:
The metroplex dwarfs Atlanta. Just the facts.

Dwarfs?
Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex had 7.6 million people in 2020; Metro Atlanta had 6.1 millions in 2021.
Yes, the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex is bigger than Metro Atlanta; but does not dwarf it.
 
dfwfanboy
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:41 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:49 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
GSPSPOT wrote:
The metroplex dwarfs Atlanta. Just the facts.

Dwarfs?
Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex had 7.6 million people in 2020; Metro Atlanta had 6.1 millions in 2021.
Yes, the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex is bigger than Metro Atlanta; but does not dwarf it.


DFW 2021: ~7.8M
ATL 201: ~6.1M

"Dwarfs" is certainly hyperbole but DFW metro is growing faster than ATL both in absolute and percentage terms.

Pax Volume: DFW isn't passing ATL any time soon due to gauge and since DFW has two large airports though DFW certainly has LOTS of room to build more terminals in the future while ATL (to an observer) seems more landlocked in terms of terminal growth.

Dots on the map: Last I heard, DFW was the most connected hub in the world: https://www.irvingweekly.com/s/4119/DFW ... -World.php


I'm sure some more current on ATL history can correct me but ATL DL was ~1000+ flights/day pre-pandemic and it seems reasonable to assume Delta would want their largest hub to get back to that which would put it back past DFW. The actual interesting thing about this topic is that DL seems to have sacrificed ATL's size/profits for LAX, SEA, BOS, and New York growth to some extent, not a perfect replacement by any means. Probably exactly what AA was hoping for with their NEA and West Coast Alliance: Delta is off defending lower margin hubs at the expense of their largest and most profitable hub and it costs AA little while AA continues to go after DL's historic dominance in the SE between DFW/CLT.
Last edited by dfwfanboy on Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 836
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:55 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Measure seats, not flights. Better yet, ASMs. Gauge and stage length do matter.


Oh really? So if I'm a passenger buying a ticket, I'm better served by a hub with bigger airplanes? Or more flights?

One with more seats, which usually means bigger planes.
More seat available for you, means more chances to find a flight on a certain day.

More seats available to you depends more on load factor than size of planes (although load factor can be correlated to plane size in some cases).
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 836
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:58 pm

incitatus wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
Number of flights, and number of passangers are both relevent to discussions comparing how busy airports are, but ASM is meaningless.


I give it that every metric is important. But I agree ASM is not as relevant as it was. It used to be associated with revenue -> longer flights had higher fares. Nowadays some short haul markets in the Midwest have average fares $200. Many transcon markets at 10 times the distance have average fares between $250 and $300.

Of course ASM is important, my point is that is isn't a good measure for how "busy" an aiport is. A 737 from ATL-CHA generates just as much aiport activity as a 737 to SEA.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 3271
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:06 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
mikejepp wrote:

Oh really? So if I'm a passenger buying a ticket, I'm better served by a hub with bigger airplanes? Or more flights?

One with more seats, which usually means bigger planes.
More seat available for you, means more chances to find a flight on a certain day.

More seats available to you depends more on load factor than size of planes (although load factor can be correlated to plane size in some cases).

Not really. If a certain route has a demand for 1,000 pax per day, there need to be a minimum of 1,000 seats available per day; whether that translate to 100% load factor or 50% load-factor is irrelevant, those seats are needed to fill the need
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 3271
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:08 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
incitatus wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
Number of flights, and number of passangers are both relevent to discussions comparing how busy airports are, but ASM is meaningless.


I give it that every metric is important. But I agree ASM is not as relevant as it was. It used to be associated with revenue -> longer flights had higher fares. Nowadays some short haul markets in the Midwest have average fares $200. Many transcon markets at 10 times the distance have average fares between $250 and $300.

Of course ASM is important, my point is that is isn't a good measure for how "busy" an aiport is. A 737 from ATL-CHA generates just as much aiport activity as a 737 to SEA.

Except for the airport operations and for the flying public, a 737 ATL-CHA or ATL-SEA is generating the same activity; the longer route is only relevant for the airlines as it means lower daily aircraft utilization on ATL-SEA rather than ATL-CHA.
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2375
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:13 pm

USAirALB wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Good stats! How does it work out for seat count?

AA has been upgauging quite a lot lately so the passenger count might not be as far apart as some may think. At CLT there are flights that used to exclusively CR9s are now on A321s.

Indeed. Countless small/medium sized cities are seeing A321s from CLT this fall...many for the first time.

I noticed a similar trend at PHX, but on a smaller scale. PHX-TUS/PSP/RNO/OMA all are seeing A321s for the first time (I believe) on from PHX this fall.


Out of curiosity which cities are getting A321s to CLT?

I know from my hometown CID we are losing CR9s for the A319. I like seeing the upgrades!

ATL from here too has been A320/A319 and goes to B738 in January
 
USAirALB
Posts: 3248
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:38 pm

CIDFlyer wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
AA has been upgauging quite a lot lately so the passenger count might not be as far apart as some may think. At CLT there are flights that used to exclusively CR9s are now on A321s.

Indeed. Countless small/medium sized cities are seeing A321s from CLT this fall...many for the first time.

I noticed a similar trend at PHX, but on a smaller scale. PHX-TUS/PSP/RNO/OMA all are seeing A321s for the first time (I believe) on from PHX this fall.


Out of curiosity which cities are getting A321s to CLT?

I know from my hometown CID we are losing CR9s for the A319. I like seeing the upgrades!

ATL from here too has been A320/A319 and goes to B738 in January

ALB, BUF, ROC, SYR, PVD, BOS, LGA, PWM, PIT, RDU, CHS, MSY, AUS, DFW, MEM, BNA, STL, SLC, SLC, DEN, DCA, BWI, PHL, IAD, RIC, LAS, LAX, PHX, ONT, SMF, PDX, SEA, SFO, SJC, MCO, TPA, FLL, PBI, RSW, JAX, CUN, PLS, MBJ, SJU, GCM, and MKE.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 1179
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:39 pm

CIDFlyer wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
AA has been upgauging quite a lot lately so the passenger count might not be as far apart as some may think. At CLT there are flights that used to exclusively CR9s are now on A321s.

Indeed. Countless small/medium sized cities are seeing A321s from CLT this fall...many for the first time.

I noticed a similar trend at PHX, but on a smaller scale. PHX-TUS/PSP/RNO/OMA all are seeing A321s for the first time (I believe) on from PHX this fall.


Out of curiosity which cities are getting A321s to CLT?

I know from my hometown CID we are losing CR9s for the A319. I like seeing the upgrades!

ATL from here too has been A320/A319 and goes to B738 in January

OMA ROC MHT PVD are some that come to mind that have been primarily or exclusively CR9s also GRR is now 738s so it went from 76 seaters to 172 seaters.
 
SFOThinker
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:13 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:52 pm

I suspect Dallas will continue to grow faster than Atlanta for this reason: Atlanta emerged as the de facto capital of the South several decades ago. The South is both the most populous and fastest growing region of the country, so it’s principal city went from a a second tier to a first tier city. Dallas is now emerging as the principal metropolis of the center of the country, replacing Chicago, which is rapidly declining thanks to crime and political misgovernance. Many national companies are moving operations, including not a few headquarters, to the DFW metro, thanks to low costs.
In the long run, Dallas’s niche is bigger than Atlanta’s, though both cities will continue to grow.
Incidentally, the airline hub operations in both cities have played a major role in their emergence as megalopolises.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 7234
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:36 pm

SFOThinker wrote:
I suspect Dallas will continue to grow faster than Atlanta for this reason: Atlanta emerged as the de facto capital of the South several decades ago. The South is both the most populous and fastest growing region of the country, so it’s principal city went from a a second tier to a first tier city. Dallas is now emerging as the principal metropolis of the center of the country, replacing Chicago, which is rapidly declining thanks to crime and political misgovernance. Many national companies are moving operations, including not a few headquarters, to the DFW metro, thanks to low costs.
In the long run, Dallas’s niche is bigger than Atlanta’s, though both cities will continue to grow.
Incidentally, the airline hub operations in both cities have played a major role in their emergence as megalopolises.


One part of my job is that Im a demographer and one thing that stands out more than anything is that Dallas, more than any other metro in the US, does the best job at attracting different types of people. Its an 7.5 out of 10 metro area to everyone without having specific draw to certain demographics. We can see below how much each metro area grew between 2010-2020. Ive included Houston as well because its the other metro area the same size in the same region:

Atlanta
Black: 339,229
Hispanic: 183,070
Asian: 144,499
White: -9,922

Dallas/Fort Worth
Hispanic 483,068
Black: 254,916
Asian: 233,631
White: 64,697

Houston
Hispanic: 580,091
Asian: 263,403
Black: 210,191
White: 9,317

In short, Dallas/Fort Worth appeals to everyone. We can see in the numbers that Atlanta and Houston are more unbalanced in the groups that attract. This will only work in DFW's favor going forward.
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 584
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:24 pm

kickazzz2000 wrote:
It's good to see AA upgauging at CLT. It's truly impressive to see DL at ATL sending 752's to places like SAV, RDU, BNA, ORF and 739's to the GSO's and GSP's of the world. Not to mention the 752 and 753 lift to FL.


What's impressive about it? They were sending 757's to RDU in the late 80's/early 90's. FL used to get all variants of the 767, a ATL-MCO (IIRC) was a 777 for a while. And that wasn't just one city, it was MIA, FLL, TPA, a couple 767's to JAX, MCO...it's always had a lot of capacity from ATL. The big change was down gauging that occured when Glenn Hauenstein joined. 764's were sent on TATL routes which isn't what DL had envisioned when they submitted design requirements to Boeing.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 836
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:17 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
One with more seats, which usually means bigger planes.
More seat available for you, means more chances to find a flight on a certain day.

More seats available to you depends more on load factor than size of planes (although load factor can be correlated to plane size in some cases).

Not really. If a certain route has a demand for 1,000 pax per day, there need to be a minimum of 1,000 seats available per day; whether that translate to 100% load factor or 50% load-factor is irrelevant, those seats are needed to fill the need

I am not sure what you are trying to say. A 100% load factor on an A380 means fewer seats available for a perspective costumer than a 75% full Q-400.
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 584
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: DFW & AA surpassing DL’s ATL hub

Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:37 pm

A lot of this all depends on who is measuring. The airport directors will look at flights and destinations but really will look more at total number of passengers. Aircraft movements matter to them more when seeking infrastructure dollars (we have this many movements vs MCI so we need the funding for a new runway more than MCI). Airlines will tout flights/destinations because pax don't care about gauge when you tell them generally. They just look at if ATL has more chances to get me where I need to go vs. CLT if you're connecting. And local pax just want lower fares (especially in CLT. :) ). Would I like more mainline, sure but I want non-stop over gauge. Some may disagree but if you live in a hub city, you generally will get what fits the market and while not ideal, you're more likely to take it than connect.

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