PA515 wrote:

Air NZ A321-271NX ZK-OYC (msn 11096) was spotted in Hangar 104 at Finkenwerder on 29 Aug.

https://digitalairliners.com/2022/08/29 ... 9-08-2022/

PA515

NZ516 wrote:

Air Chathams resumed their Saab 340 service to Norfolk Island today the first time in over a year.

http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2022/09/ ... e.html?m=0

a7ala wrote:

NZ516 wrote:

Air Chathams resumed their Saab 340 service to Norfolk Island today the first time in over a year.

http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2022/09/ ... e.html?m=0

Anyone know what the range of the Saab 340 is? Im guessing WLG-NLK would be too far.

zkncj wrote:

a7ala wrote:

NZ516 wrote:

Air Chathams resumed their Saab 340 service to Norfolk Island today the first time in over a year.

http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2022/09/ ... e.html?m=0

Anyone know what the range of the Saab 340 is? Im guessing WLG-NLK would be too far.

Either they have a massive payload restriction? or there is non standard upgrade pack to extend range on the 340s?

Wikipeadia seems to think the range is 870km, but AKL-NLK is around 1000km.

zkncj wrote:

a7ala wrote:

NZ516 wrote:

Air Chathams resumed their Saab 340 service to Norfolk Island today the first time in over a year.

http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2022/09/ ... e.html?m=0

Anyone know what the range of the Saab 340 is? Im guessing WLG-NLK would be too far.

Either they have a massive payload restriction? or there is non standard upgrade pack to extend range on the 340s?

Wikipeadia seems to think the range is 870km, but AKL-NLK is around 1000km.

NTLDaz wrote:

zkncj wrote:

a7ala wrote:

Anyone know what the range of the Saab 340 is? Im guessing WLG-NLK would be too far.

Either they have a massive payload restriction? or there is non standard upgrade pack to extend range on the 340s?

Wikipeadia seems to think the range is 870km, but AKL-NLK is around 1000km.

Rex fly Sydney to Broken Hill which is about 930kms so it can do more than 870km. WLG - NLK would be very unlikely.

PA515 wrote:

Air Raratonga intends to operate 1,144 km RAR-PPT with the Saab 340B

NZ516 wrote:

Air Chathams resumed their Saab 340 service to Norfolk Island today the first time in over a year.

http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2022/09/ ... e.html?m=0

planemanofnz wrote:

NZ516 wrote:

Air Chathams resumed their Saab 340 service to Norfolk Island today the first time in over a year.

http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2022/09/ ... e.html?m=0

Does anyone know how demand is looking for this route? Is it primarily AKL-originating tourist passengers?

NZ516 wrote:

planemanofnz wrote:

NZ516 wrote:

Air Chathams resumed their Saab 340 service to Norfolk Island today the first time in over a year.

http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2022/09/ ... e.html?m=0

Does anyone know how demand is looking for this route? Is it primarily AKL-originating tourist passengers?

It will be mostly Kiwi holidaymakers and a few Norfolk Islanders coming the other way. Air NZ previously flew the route last with A320s AKL- NLK but was dropped most likely not enough demand to fill a 320. I think Air Chathams does it twice weekly with the Saab so about 68 seats per week.

Kiwiandrew wrote:

NZ516 wrote:

planemanofnz wrote:

Does anyone know how demand is looking for this route? Is it primarily AKL-originating tourist passengers?

It will be mostly Kiwi holidaymakers and a few Norfolk Islanders coming the other way. Air NZ previously flew the route last with A320s AKL- NLK but was dropped most likely not enough demand to fill a 320. I think Air Chathams does it twice weekly with the Saab so about 68 seats per week.

Many years ago when I was a travel agent the joke was that there were two outbound markets from here to Norfolk Island : "Newlyweds" and "Nearly Deads", but these days those honeymooners who can afford an international trip tend to go elsewhere, leaving only the latter. It's a shrinking market

Kiwiandrew wrote:

NZ516 wrote:

planemanofnz wrote:

Does anyone know how demand is looking for this route? Is it primarily AKL-originating tourist passengers?

It will be mostly Kiwi holidaymakers and a few Norfolk Islanders coming the other way. Air NZ previously flew the route last with A320s AKL- NLK but was dropped most likely not enough demand to fill a 320. I think Air Chathams does it twice weekly with the Saab so about 68 seats per week.

Many years ago when I was a travel agent the joke was that there were two outbound markets from here to Norfolk Island : "Newlyweds" and "Nearly Deads", but these days those honeymooners who can afford an international trip tend to go elsewhere, leaving only the latter. It's a shrinking market

NZ516 wrote:

Air NZ recently flew SYD & BNE to NLK but due to Covid restrictions these were unable to operate. Now QF are flying their 737s to NLK. Perhaps Air NZ will tender for these routes again.

PA515 wrote:

ZK-NZF goes to AMA via LAX on 04 Sep after doing NZ4. Will it be getting a full repaint like ZK-NZE or just the wings.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zk-nzf

PA515

Kiwiandrew wrote:

It's a shrinking market

Kiwings wrote:

Air Chathams marketing seems quite weak.

zkncj wrote:

ZK-OJM really seems to have been getting a bit of International use recently ex-AKL, almost seems like NZ was 1x sort on there A320NEO order? I wonder if we might see a top up order coming for International?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zk-ojm

ZK-NBT wrote:

My last reply was long winded. I do wonder weather NZ will order anymore A320s full stop, I wouldn’t be surprised if the entire domestic jet fleet was A321s when the existing fleet needs replacing towards the end of the decade or early next. I’m not so sure on the international NEOs but maybe something else will be about the time they need replacing. The A220 is a different type rating, interesting none the less.

zkncj wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

My last reply was long winded. I do wonder weather NZ will order anymore A320s full stop, I wouldn’t be surprised if the entire domestic jet fleet was A321s when the existing fleet needs replacing towards the end of the decade or early next. I’m not so sure on the international NEOs but maybe something else will be about the time they need replacing. The A220 is a different type rating, interesting none the less.

It would be interesting to see what it would take to upgrade IUE to take the a321N’s. I know originally people though that ZQN wouldn’t be able to take them, now they are a staple.

During the bubble last year, the a321N did do some ZQN-SYD runs.

ZK-NBT wrote:

NZ124 MEL-AKL was cancelled on Thursday 1st, 77W ZK-OKO, not sure if it was aircraft related or possibly crew sickness. Positioning MEL-AKL as NZ6050. At least no knock on effect for the moment with an additional 77W in service. OKN was on the ground In AKL and did NZ6, not sure if OKN was originally scheduled for NZ6 or not.

LamboAston wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

NZ124 MEL-AKL was cancelled on Thursday 1st, 77W ZK-OKO, not sure if it was aircraft related or possibly crew sickness. Positioning MEL-AKL as NZ6050. At least no knock on effect for the moment with an additional 77W in service. OKN was on the ground In AKL and did NZ6, not sure if OKN was originally scheduled for NZ6 or not.

OKN was meant to operate NZ103 to Sydney, this was swapped to 789 NZE. I was on that flight, with many unhappy downgraded pax. Was very full up front. I believe most PE pax went to economy with biz pax going to PE. 3 birthdays onboard interestingly.

ZK-NBT wrote:

The A220 is a different type rating.

zkncj wrote:

It would be interesting to see what it would take to upgrade IUE to take the a321N’s.

PA515 wrote:

NZ516 wrote:

Air NZ recently flew SYD & BNE to NLK but due to Covid restrictions these were unable to operate. Now QF are flying their 737s to NLK. Perhaps Air NZ will tender for these routes again.

I doubt Air NZ are interested. There was a tender that closed about May 2022, but instead of a successful applicant being announced the QF arrangement was extended until 05 Feb 2023.

PA515

zkncj wrote:

ZK-OJM really seems to have been getting a bit of International use recently ex-AKL, almost seems like NZ was 1x sort on there A320NEO order? I wonder if we might see a top up order coming for International?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zk-ojm

planemanofnz wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

The A220 is a different type rating.

Would that be big enough to make it a deal breaker though? Genuine question - am keen to understand. IMO, the A220's lower capacity would serve a useful role at NZ in-between the ATR and A320 family - useful enough to justify the different type rating though, I don't know.

ZK-NBT wrote:

planemanofnz wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

The A220 is a different type rating.

Would that be big enough to make it a deal breaker though? Genuine question - am keen to understand. IMO, the A220's lower capacity would serve a useful role at NZ in-between the ATR and A320 family - useful enough to justify the different type rating though, I don't know.

The A220 can seat 160 in a single class configuration, though you might expect 1-2 rows less, the A320 can seat 180, NZ seat 168-171.

I am thinking the A321 could replace the bulk of the A320D fleet. You would then almost think something in between the ATR-A321 would be necessary then? The reason for the A225 is it is newer and similar just under the capacity of the A320. This is another 5+ years away yet imo.

mrkerr7474 wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

planemanofnz wrote:

Would that be big enough to make it a deal breaker though? Genuine question - am keen to understand. IMO, the A220's lower capacity would serve a useful role at NZ in-between the ATR and A320 family - useful enough to justify the different type rating though, I don't know.

The A220 can seat 160 in a single class configuration, though you might expect 1-2 rows less, the A320 can seat 180, NZ seat 168-171.

I am thinking the A321 could replace the bulk of the A320D fleet. You would then almost think something in between the ATR-A321 would be necessary then? The reason for the A225 is it is newer and similar just under the capacity of the A320. This is another 5+ years away yet imo.

What about the A221 in the fleet? Seats up to 135 and could be used for off peak services domestically along with secondary routes. Would fit in under A321 if they do the bulk of domestic flying in the future

ZK-NBT wrote:

WLG/CHC-SYD are 1 daily atm, would they even consider 1 daily on A321s if more seats are needed? It would probably mean ordering more.

NZ516 wrote:

LATAM airlines increase AKL to daily from 5 Dec
Not surprised as without NZ to EZE. There is more demand for their flights.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220903-lanw22sw

PA515 wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

WLG/CHC-SYD are 1 daily atm, would they even consider 1 daily on A321s if more seats are needed? It would probably mean ordering more.

They would as the Dec 2019 / Feb 2020 Air NZ schedule had two of the seven A321NEOs operating out of CHC to SYD/MEL/BNE/OOL. But it will depend how many are needed to operate from AKL as a number of previous Trans Tasman and Pacific Island 789 / 77E flights have been replaced with A321NEOs and they need to build them up to 789 capacity again.

PA515

planemanofnz wrote:

NZ516 wrote:

LATAM airlines increase AKL to daily from 5 Dec
Not surprised as without NZ to EZE. There is more demand for their flights.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220903-lanw22sw

Great to see them doing well on this route. You have to wonder how much of the demand is to/from AKL though, and if they'll eventually go non-stop to/from SYD.

ZK-NBT wrote:

mrkerr7474 wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

The A220 can seat 160 in a single class configuration, though you might expect 1-2 rows less, the A320 can seat 180, NZ seat 168-171.

I am thinking the A321 could replace the bulk of the A320D fleet. You would then almost think something in between the ATR-A321 would be necessary then? The reason for the A225 is it is newer and similar just under the capacity of the A320. This is another 5+ years away yet imo.

What about the A221 in the fleet? Seats up to 135 and could be used for off peak services domestically along with secondary routes. Would fit in under A321 if they do the bulk of domestic flying in the future

With 104 orders for the A221, the A223 has 670 orders. It looks like the larger aircraft is favoured as it is more efficient, the A225 can seat up to 175.

Will NZ look to plug the gap from the 68 seat ATR to the 171 seat A320? The A223 could be the best bet there at around 150 seats. The A225 could start to take some A320 orders as demand ramps up.

I would be looking at a timeframe when the A320D needs replacing, probably what late this decade? Certainly ex AKL anyway. But I could certainly see most of that fleet replaced by A321s. Which creates a larger gap again.

The A320N international fleet is brand new, I would have to say I’m not convinced they will grow that fleet but instead add additional A321s if needed.

zkncj wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

mrkerr7474 wrote:

What about the A221 in the fleet? Seats up to 135 and could be used for off peak services domestically along with secondary routes. Would fit in under A321 if they do the bulk of domestic flying in the future

With 104 orders for the A221, the A223 has 670 orders. It looks like the larger aircraft is favoured as it is more efficient, the A225 can seat up to 175.

Will NZ look to plug the gap from the 68 seat ATR to the 171 seat A320? The A223 could be the best bet there at around 150 seats. The A225 could start to take some A320 orders as demand ramps up.

I would be looking at a timeframe when the A320D needs replacing, probably what late this decade? Certainly ex AKL anyway. But I could certainly see most of that fleet replaced by A321s. Which creates a larger gap again.

The A320N international fleet is brand new, I would have to say I’m not convinced they will grow that fleet but instead add additional A321s if needed.

I do wonder if the ATR 72-600s will move down the chain in following years? To replace the Q300s, with in the next 5-10years something is going to be done with the Q300 fleet.

Which could open up space for a mid size replacement to slot between the a321 and the ATR?

How many ATR’s can NZ really send on routes like AKL-NSN in a day?

Surely routes that could make good use of a a221?

mrkerr7474 wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

planemanofnz wrote:

Would that be big enough to make it a deal breaker though? Genuine question - am keen to understand. IMO, the A220's lower capacity would serve a useful role at NZ in-between the ATR and A320 family - useful enough to justify the different type rating though, I don't know.

The A220 can seat 160 in a single class configuration, though you might expect 1-2 rows less, the A320 can seat 180, NZ seat 168-171.

I am thinking the A321 could replace the bulk of the A320D fleet. You would then almost think something in between the ATR-A321 would be necessary then? The reason for the A225 is it is newer and similar just under the capacity of the A320. This is another 5+ years away yet imo.

What about the A221 in the fleet? Seats up to 135 and could be used for off peak services domestically along with secondary routes. Would fit in under A321 if they do the bulk of domestic flying in the future

ZK-NBT wrote:

I recall NZ looked probably around 2010 about running 733s into the regions a bit, the likes of NSN? IVC, PMR, HLZ, possibly others?

ZK-NBT wrote:

The thing is introducing any type of 90+ seater requires security screening. While a jet comes with added costs and hardly any of the regions have any competition, so how many ATRs a day can you run? Hard to say, while not infinite, maybe a few more than they do now?

zkncj wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

I recall NZ looked probably around 2010 about running 733s into the regions a bit, the likes of NSN? IVC, PMR, HLZ, possibly others?

That’s right, didn’t NZ run a comp where they asked towns to vote to support there port getting jet services. Along with at the time NZ was planning to purchase some second hand 734s to free up the 733s? Might of been an bit earlier that? But nothing ever came of it.

ZK-NBT wrote:

The thing is introducing any type of 90+ seater requires security screening. While a jet comes with added costs and hardly any of the regions have any competition, so how many ATRs a day can you run? Hard to say, while not infinite, maybe a few more than they do now?

I do wonder how long the lack of AVSEC will last at regional ports? We must be one of the few countries in the world where you get jump on ATR/Q300 without screening.

Surely the lack of AVSEC at these regional ports, limits new competition form starting.

ZK-NBT wrote:

zkncj wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

With 104 orders for the A221, the A223 has 670 orders. It looks like the larger aircraft is favoured as it is more efficient, the A225 can seat up to 175.

Will NZ look to plug the gap from the 68 seat ATR to the 171 seat A320? The A223 could be the best bet there at around 150 seats. The A225 could start to take some A320 orders as demand ramps up.

I would be looking at a timeframe when the A320D needs replacing, probably what late this decade? Certainly ex AKL anyway. But I could certainly see most of that fleet replaced by A321s. Which creates a larger gap again.

The A320N international fleet is brand new, I would have to say I’m not convinced they will grow that fleet but instead add additional A321s if needed.

I do wonder if the ATR 72-600s will move down the chain in following years? To replace the Q300s, with in the next 5-10years something is going to be done with the Q300 fleet.

Which could open up space for a mid size replacement to slot between the a321 and the ATR?

How many ATR’s can NZ really send on routes like AKL-NSN in a day?

Surely routes that could make good use of a a221?

Aren’t they planning to add hydrogen to the Q300 around 2025? Where is that at? Which would reduce capacity to 40 or so and hopefully make up the lost seats with improved efficiency? Q300 replacement is planned to be electric around 2030?

I recall NZ looked probably around 2010 about running 733s into the regions a bit, the likes of NSN? IVC, PMR, HLZ, possibly others?

The thing is introducing any type of 90+ seater requires security screening. While a jet comes with added costs and hardly any of the regions have any competition, so how many ATRs a day can you run? Hard to say, while not infinite, maybe a few more than they do now?

DavidByrne wrote:

One advantage of the A221 is that it can operate from NSN, whereas the A223 cannot. Given AKL-NSN is one of the most likely domestic routes for jet services, this should be a consideration.