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DocLightning
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I flew on an interesting United A319

Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:27 pm

So I flew on N874UA. The interesting thing about this A319 is that she was delivered to MU in 2003 and then transferred to UA in 2020. This seems really strange to me. AFAIK, UA has selected the 737-MAX to be its mainline NB fleet, so why would they pick up a used A319 in 2020? Was it to compensate for the MAX?

On top of that, it's owned by Wells Fargo. I'd assume a 17yo frame would be cash-cheap enough that it would make more sense to own it. In fact, a lot of UA's fleet, including some of their more senior birds, are leased (UA seems to be a loyal Wells Fargo customer). Can someone explain the economics here?
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:41 pm

United has 120 A321's on order, the MAX isn't going to be its exclusive narrow body fleet. They also made a deal to lease used WN 737-700's pre-COVID through GECAS and took a number of used A319's like the one you flew on.
 
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scbriml
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:41 pm

United has picked up a number of "previously loved" Airbuses in the last couple of years.
 
zkncj
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:48 pm

Comes down to there business model, and how they budget out there fleet. Having some older leased aircraft, also gives them the ability to reduce there fleet in the case of a down turn. To break the lease on a 20year old a139 is much better than on a 2 year old 737Max.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:24 pm

This A319 is owned by ILFC and was leased to the previous operator. It and a few other A319s were leased from ILFC by United Airlines as it was probably easier and cheaper to lease the aircraft from ILFC. Probably can return the aircraft to ILFC with a 30 or 60 day notice as part of the lease agreement. :old:
 
MO11
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:25 pm

DocLightning wrote:
So I flew on N874UA. The interesting thing about this A319 is that she was delivered to MU in 2003 and then transferred to UA in 2020. This seems really strange to me. AFAIK, UA has selected the 737-MAX to be its mainline NB fleet, so why would they pick up a used A319 in 2020? Was it to compensate for the MAX?

On top of that, it's owned by Wells Fargo. I'd assume a 17yo frame would be cash-cheap enough that it would make more sense to own it. In fact, a lot of UA's fleet, including some of their more senior birds, are leased (UA seems to be a loyal Wells Fargo customer). Can someone explain the economics here?


United arranged to lease those A319s long before the MAX order. And the airplane is owned by AerCap (or one of its subsidiaries). Wells Fargo doesn't own any of these airliners. Its airplane trust unit provides registration trust services for foreign leasing companies (and collects a nice fee for doing so).
 
Ionosphere
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:08 am

I flew an ex China Southern A319 in May MCI-ORD. That aircraft has been at UA since November 2019.
 
n471wn
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:25 am

WkndWanderer wrote:
United has 120 A321's on order, the MAX isn't going to be its exclusive narrow body fleet. They also made a deal to lease used WN 737-700's pre-COVID through GECAS and took a number of used A319's like the one you flew on.


They never put the WN 737-700’s into service. Sadly they were flown to TUP and scrapped.
 
Velocirapture
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:35 am

DocLightning"On top of that, it's owned by Wells Fargo. I'd assume a 17yo frame would be cash-cheap enough that it would make more sense to own it. In fact, a lot of UA's fleet, including some of their more senior birds, are leased (UA seems to be a loyal Wells Fargo customer). Can someone explain the economics here?[/quote]


[quote="MO11 wrote:
United arranged to lease those A319s long before the MAX order. And the airplane is owned by AerCap (or one of its subsidiaries). Wells Fargo doesn't own any of these airliners. Its airplane trust unit provides registration trust services for foreign leasing companies (and collects a nice fee for doing so).


Wells Fargo and other financial institutions offer lease and trust management for a variety of carriers. If you want to do some interesting reading, search for Enhanced Equipment Trust Certificates (EETCs).
 
smi0006
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:31 am

I’m curious how much they have invested in these frames. Will the used/leased aircraft receive the new UA-Next interiors?
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:02 am

It's a cheap way to get more mainline sized planes in order to replace RJ's to upsize their fleet. UA got lots of them from U2 due to U2 upsizing to A320NEOS. As a ULCC, U2 benefits from lower fuel burn and the extra seats. UA are flying short segments to and from hubs, so the fuel burn isn't too bad. They can afford to sit on the ground longer between banks of flights due to lower capital cost than new aircraft. UA also needs to have Airbus planes for their pilots to fly as they get rid of their oldest A320 aircraft. They also need to keep Airbus pilots flying while they wait for A321NEO's and A321XLR's. Plus UA also has a large number of A350-900's on order. They will need experienced Airbus pilots to fly those too.
 
ramprat320
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:56 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
It's a cheap way to get more mainline sized planes in order to replace RJ's to upsize their fleet. UA got lots of them from U2 due to U2 upsizing to A320NEOS. As a ULCC, U2 benefits from lower fuel burn and the extra seats. UA are flying short segments to and from hubs, so the fuel burn isn't too bad. They can afford to sit on the ground longer between banks of flights due to lower capital cost than new aircraft. UA also needs to have Airbus planes for their pilots to fly as they get rid of their oldest A320 aircraft. They also need to keep Airbus pilots flying while they wait for A321NEO's and A321XLR's. Plus UA also has a large number of A350-900's on order. They will need experienced Airbus pilots to fly those too.


No previous Airbus experience is required to fly an A350 or any other Airbus. Like most airlines pilot bids are based on seniority and not previous type experience. The training and type rating provided by the airline is all you need to fly any type.
 
strfyr51
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:00 am

zkncj wrote:
Comes down to there business model, and how they budget out there fleet. Having some older leased aircraft, also gives them the ability to reduce there fleet in the case of a down turn. To break the lease on a 20year old a139 is much better than on a 2 year old 737Max.

United has the habit of buying airplanes and selling them for lease back. the lessors make good money and United can either buy the airplane back at the end of the lease, or let the owner dispose of it as they see fit. It keeps the airplane off the balance sheet which is their main aim. It's worked [retty wel; in the past though a couple of lessors have gotten somewhat burned in my opinion. especially when they wanted to change the lease structures. One bank took back a couple of 747-122's and released them to Pan Am. When Pan AM went under they sought to re-lease them to United and United refused them so theui went pretty quickly downhill because United them went out and bought some Ex American 747-123's overhauled them and flew them in the pacific along with 10 Ex Pan Am 747SP's 9actually 8 were SP-21's and 2 were Sp-27's (Ex Braniff airplanes) which we flew until the 747-422's replaced them. Them and the 6 L1011-500's and 6 DC-10-30's we either bought or leased.
United has a pretty healthy leasing and sales business at UAL.Inc (the holding Co for United airlines and subsidiaries)
 
strfyr51
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:14 am

smi0006 wrote:
I’m curious how much they have invested in these frames. Will the used/leased aircraft receive the new UA-Next interiors?

United will Standardize the interiors to the extent possible, and over time will match the interiors as the parts and materials are needed. the sidewalls are the hardest thing as everything else is either in stock or made at United; Seats are the most common thing to change out as it makes it easier to match parts they already have in abundance, that's probably why they bought the China Southern Airplanes. There's a plan there and I suspect that United will eventually replace the majority of United Express flights with the A319's as that airplane can do a LOT of things and do them Well. If you notice? all the 319's that were not China Southern? They're either parting out or selling. Just which like the parted out or sold the oddball 737's like the Southwest Birds which I'd bet good money they stripped down to "Parade Rest" including the Engines, landing gear, and Avionics.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:23 am

strfyr51 wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
I’m curious how much they have invested in these frames. Will the used/leased aircraft receive the new UA-Next interiors?

United will Standardize the interiors to the extent possible, and over time will match the interiors as the parts and materials are needed. the sidewalls are the hardest thing as everything else is either in stock or made at United; Seats are the most common thing to change out as it makes it easier to match parts they already have in abundance, that's probably why they bought the China Southern Airplanes. There's a plan there and I suspect that United will eventually replace the majority of United Express flights with the A319's as that airplane can do a LOT of things and do them Well. If you notice? all the 319's that were not China Southern? They're either parting out or selling. Just which like the parted out or sold the oddball 737's like the Southwest Birds which I'd bet good money they stripped down to "Parade Rest" including the Engines, landing gear, and Avionics.


Hello, pardon my ignorance but I’ve not heard of “parade rest”. Might you explain a bit? Thanks!
 
strfyr51
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 5:42 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
I’m curious how much they have invested in these frames. Will the used/leased aircraft receive the new UA-Next interiors?

United will Standardize the interiors to the extent possible, and over time will match the interiors as the parts and materials are needed. the sidewalls are the hardest thing as everything else is either in stock or made at United; Seats are the most common thing to change out as it makes it easier to match parts they already have in abundance, that's probably why they bought the China Southern Airplanes. There's a plan there and I suspect that United will eventually replace the majority of United Express flights with the A319's as that airplane can do a LOT of things and do them Well. If you notice? all the 319's that were not China Southern? They're either parting out or selling. Just which like the parted out or sold the oddball 737's like the Southwest Birds which I'd bet good money they stripped down to "Parade Rest" including the Engines, landing gear, and Avionics.


Hello, pardon my ignorance but I’ve not heard of “parade rest”. Might you explain a bit? Thanks!

Parade rest is a drill formation position where the service members feet are the width of their shoulders and their hands are behind them crossed in the small of their back. if they're carrying a a weapon the barrel is held away from them while the stock in next to their right foot. when they come to attention the weapon is in line with their right leg.
 
Fixinthe757
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:29 am

smi0006 wrote:
I’m curious how much they have invested in these frames. Will the used/leased aircraft receive the new UA-Next interiors?


Quite a bit actually. We're doing heavy checks on some of their baby bus fleet here at BFM. Pretty extensive what we're doing, and they're definitely showing their age and usage. All good to go when they leave here though
 
classicjets
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:52 pm

N874UA is ex-CZ not MU.
 
phatfarmlines
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Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:00 pm

DocLightning wrote:
So I flew on N874UA. The interesting thing about this A319 is that she was delivered to MU in 2003 and then transferred to UA in 2020. This seems really strange to me. AFAIK, UA has selected the 737-MAX to be its mainline NB fleet, so why would they pick up a used A319 in 2020? Was it to compensate for the MAX?

On top of that, it's owned by Wells Fargo. I'd assume a 17yo frame would be cash-cheap enough that it would make more sense to own it. In fact, a lot of UA's fleet, including some of their more senior birds, are leased (UA seems to be a loyal Wells Fargo customer). Can someone explain the economics here?


This was UA's attempt at adopting DL's mid-2000's through early 2010's fleet strategy of purchasing used narrowbodies to trade up from RJs.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:58 am

classicjets wrote:
N874UA is ex-CZ not MU.


Yikes! You are correct! Apparently my sense of direction was off when I wrote this post. :spin:
 
strfyr51
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:24 am

phatfarmlines wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
So I flew on N874UA. The interesting thing about this A319 is that she was delivered to MU in 2003 and then transferred to UA in 2020. This seems really strange to me. AFAIK, UA has selected the 737-MAX to be its mainline NB fleet, so why would they pick up a used A319 in 2020? Was it to compensate for the MAX?

On top of that, it's owned by Wells Fargo. I'd assume a 17yo frame would be cash-cheap enough that it would make more sense to own it. In fact, a lot of UA's fleet, including some of their more senior birds, are leased (UA seems to be a loyal Wells Fargo customer). Can someone explain the economics here?


This was UA's attempt at adopting DL's mid-2000's through early 2010's fleet strategy of purchasing used narrowbodies to trade up from RJs.

I think UAALPA had quite a bit to do with this "Strategy". United has tried to be i Harmony for the last 10 years with ALPA as ALPA considers all regional flying Their OWN and I think United may want to test this out to see if it's true since we all know that the A319's are the majority Junior captains flying though they could get senior if they get home more regularly if regional flying permits that. I remember having a Hard time getting the Airbus crews to perform an auto-land when they're due at least once a month. I would get all manner of reasons and excuses as to why they didn't or couldn't and it wasn't weather either. Sometimes weeven had to go to the flight duty manager to shame some guys into performing the required auto-land to keep the airplane current.
 
sUAisDL
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:49 am

smi0006 wrote:
I’m curious how much they have invested in these frames. Will the used/leased aircraft receive the new UA-Next interiors?


Lol have any previously delivered airplanes received next yet? Maybe they’re waiting for BOOM’s subsidiary POOF to install those mods :hyper: :stirthepot:
 
BealineV953
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sun Sep 04, 2022 10:00 am

n471wn wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
United has 120 A321's on order, the MAX isn't going to be its exclusive narrow body fleet. They also made a deal to lease used WN 737-700's pre-COVID through GECAS and took a number of used A319's like the one you flew on.


They never put the WN 737-700’s into service. Sadly they were flown to TUP and scrapped.


Will the A319s United bought from easyJet enter service, or will they also be scrapped?
 
mcdu
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:42 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
It's a cheap way to get more mainline sized planes in order to replace RJ's to upsize their fleet. UA got lots of them from U2 due to U2 upsizing to A320NEOS. As a ULCC, U2 benefits from lower fuel burn and the extra seats. UA are flying short segments to and from hubs, so the fuel burn isn't too bad. They can afford to sit on the ground longer between banks of flights due to lower capital cost than new aircraft. UA also needs to have Airbus planes for their pilots to fly as they get rid of their oldest A320 aircraft. They also need to keep Airbus pilots flying while they wait for A321NEO's and A321XLR's. Plus UA also has a large number of A350-900's on order. They will need experienced Airbus pilots to fly those too.


There is absolutely no previous Airbus experience requirement to fly the A350. If previous experience was a real thing how would new types ever enter service at a carrier. There were no previous B777 or B787 pilots when those types were added to their fleet.
 
MO11
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:48 pm

BealineV953 wrote:

Will the A319s United bought from easyJet enter service, or will they also be scrapped?


They will not enter service. Several are going back to EasyJet.
 
strfyr51
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:05 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
It's a cheap way to get more mainline sized planes in order to replace RJ's to upsize their fleet. UA got lots of them from U2 due to U2 upsizing to A320NEOS. As a ULCC, U2 benefits from lower fuel burn and the extra seats. UA are flying short segments to and from hubs, so the fuel burn isn't too bad. They can afford to sit on the ground longer between banks of flights due to lower capital cost than new aircraft. UA also needs to have Airbus planes for their pilots to fly as they get rid of their oldest A320 aircraft. They also need to keep Airbus pilots flying while they wait for A321NEO's and A321XLR's. Plus UA also has a large number of A350-900's on order. They will need experienced Airbus pilots to fly those too.

the A350 won't more than likely be flown by the A320/A319 trained pilots. More than likely they'll be flown by Ex-777 or 767 pilots. especially if they're flown internationally. You don't need to be Airbus "trained" to fly an Airbus the United flight training center in Denver will do that pretty nicely. Aside from the fact that the A350 might never see United colors. (purely my opinion)
 
strfyr51
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Re: I flew on an interesting A319 yesterday

Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:10 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
n471wn wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
United has 120 A321's on order, the MAX isn't going to be its exclusive narrow body fleet. They also made a deal to lease used WN 737-700's pre-COVID through GECAS and took a number of used A319's like the one you flew on.


They never put the WN 737-700’s into service. Sadly they were flown to TUP and scrapped.


Will the A319s United bought from easyJet enter service, or will they also be scrapped?

I would guess? they might see service depending on how the phase out of UAX progresses. At some point? UAX will be flying mostly if not all E175's along with the CRJ-550's that United Owns.
 
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RWA380
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Re: I flew on an interesting United A319

Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:19 pm

Can't wait to see what the four, A-319's we are reserved to fly on to RIC via DEN, from RDM have in their past, registration information I will check upon return home. Thanks for the heads up on the mis-matched UA A-319 fleet.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: I flew on an interesting United A319

Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:27 am

Slot restrictions, airport congestion and airspace congestion got much worse in China over the 2000s and 2010s. This caused a massive desire for Chinese airlines to upgauge and sell off or terminate leases of smaller 737-700s and A319s. Pilot shortages, fuel price increases and congestion also made other airlines to want to upgauge. This dropped the residual value of the A319s and 737-700s and made them attractive for US airlines flying to smaller markets. We saw an influx of smaller narrowbodies into the United States and taken up by United, Southwest and Allegiant. While United would be unlikely to buy an A319neo or 737-7 since the price difference between those and the much more profitable A321neos and 737-10 isn’t big enough to warrant new purchases of small narrowbodies, the artificially low prices of used A319s and 737-700s made a lot of sense.
 
rta
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Re: I flew on an interesting United A319

Mon Sep 05, 2022 3:18 am

The ex-MU A319s are very nice, the interior definitely feels a lot more fresh/new than the other A32X in the fleet. Looked just like any other plane in the United fleet as far as I could tell.

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