Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
TYWoolman wrote:In a nut shell...two airlines that rigorously compete against each other don't form an alliance. And two airlines that do form an alliance will have embarked on an inevitable downhill trend to compete less and less with each other all the while distorting the competitive dynamic for the remaining players that in turn must operate under their own limitations absent comparatively similar strategic options.
AA has had an illustrious history in NY and has set precedent for itself that it can hold its own. The NEA is a defector merger, allowing AA to utilize a lower-cost model in certain markets only to be able to dump capacity elsewhere. B6 has also proven success in NY and is poised to gain more slots with NK. Should be a no-go.
MIflyer12 wrote:Is there really anything to say until a verdict is reached, or a pre-verdict settlement is reached? The DOJ chose to sue (unlike DL/WS) and AA/B6 chose to go to trial rather than modify the agreement and reach a settlement.
HunterATL wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:Is there really anything to say until a verdict is reached, or a pre-verdict settlement is reached? The DOJ chose to sue (unlike DL/WS) and AA/B6 chose to go to trial rather than modify the agreement and reach a settlement.
There will be no verdict. It's a bench trial.
LAXintl wrote:With the bench trial is set to commence on September 27 before U.S. District Court in Massachusetts, I thought we could have a consolidated thread covering Northeast Alliance (NEA) case and avoid the need for cross-posting in the AA and JetBlue threads.
As background, the DOJ and six states last year sued American Airlines and JetBlue Airways to stop their network and frequent flyer partnership on antitrust grounds with claims the NEA reduces competition through anti-competitive behavior and amounts to a de facto merger between American and JetBlue in markets from Boston and New York City.
Link to DOJ complaint:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-relea ... 1/download
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DLPMMM wrote:HunterATL wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:Is there really anything to say until a verdict is reached, or a pre-verdict settlement is reached? The DOJ chose to sue (unlike DL/WS) and AA/B6 chose to go to trial rather than modify the agreement and reach a settlement.
There will be no verdict. It's a bench trial.
There will be a verdict.
It will be given by the judge.
That is how a bench trial works.
There is no jury.
capejet wrote:Anyone know anything about the Judge in this case? What kind of decisions he/she has issued in the past? Might hold the key.
santi319 wrote:As I expected, JetBlue said not as committed to NEA, and this may help smooth approval for Spirit Airlines deal.
It was obvious as they are bound to become a major player in the country, they don’t really need AA, they just couldn’t say it before as they had a chance of losing the votes for NK, but it was obvious that this major expansion superseded any interest in codesharing at 3 airports with a subpar player.
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3883183-jetblue-said-not-as-committed-to-nea-may-help-smooth-approval-for-spirit-airlines-deal
santi319 wrote:As I expected, JetBlue said not as committed to NEA, and this may help smooth approval for Spirit Airlines deal.
It was obvious as they are bound to become a major player in the country, they don’t really need AA, they just couldn’t say it before as they had a chance of losing the votes for NK, but it was obvious that this major expansion superseded any interest in codesharing at 3 airports with a subpar player.
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3883183-jetblue-said-not-as-committed-to-nea-may-help-smooth-approval-for-spirit-airlines-deal
santi319 wrote:As I expected, JetBlue said not as committed to NEA, and this may help smooth approval for Spirit Airlines deal.
It was obvious as they are bound to become a major player in the country, they don’t really need AA, they just couldn’t say it before as they had a chance of losing the votes for NK, but it was obvious that this major expansion superseded any interest in codesharing at 3 airports with a subpar player.
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3883183-jetblue-said-not-as-committed-to-nea-may-help-smooth-approval-for-spirit-airlines-deal
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Just my own opinion here. I think AA has more to lose and hence more invested in trying to keep the NEA alive. With B6/NK tie up B6 will have the assets to do what they need to. AA has a lot more to lose if this is broken up,
TWA85 wrote:FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Just my own opinion here. I think AA has more to lose and hence more invested in trying to keep the NEA alive. With B6/NK tie up B6 will have the assets to do what they need to. AA has a lot more to lose if this is broken up,
This is a fair assessment, but it must also be pointed out that without AA, B6 will not have the slots necessary to expand in NYC. If B6 walks away from the NEA, AA will not let B6 keep the slots that AA is leasing to B6.
MLIAA wrote:TWA85 wrote:FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Just my own opinion here. I think AA has more to lose and hence more invested in trying to keep the NEA alive. With B6/NK tie up B6 will have the assets to do what they need to. AA has a lot more to lose if this is broken up,
This is a fair assessment, but it must also be pointed out that without AA, B6 will not have the slots necessary to expand in NYC. If B6 walks away from the NEA, AA will not let B6 keep the slots that AA is leasing to B6.
With the NK merger B6 might not feel a need to expand in NY, it will have the NK slots and feel ok with that while growing out Florida and other NK strongholds like DTW ORD DFW and LAS.
TWA85 wrote:santi319 wrote:As I expected, JetBlue said not as committed to NEA, and this may help smooth approval for Spirit Airlines deal.
It was obvious as they are bound to become a major player in the country, they don’t really need AA, they just couldn’t say it before as they had a chance of losing the votes for NK, but it was obvious that this major expansion superseded any interest in codesharing at 3 airports with a subpar player.
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3883183-jetblue-said-not-as-committed-to-nea-may-help-smooth-approval-for-spirit-airlines-deal
Other than the title of the article, where does it say that B6 is not as committed to the alliance? A direct from B6 in this article actually says the contrary. All B6 has said is that the NEA and NK merger are separate issues.
MLIAA wrote:TWA85 wrote:FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:Just my own opinion here. I think AA has more to lose and hence more invested in trying to keep the NEA alive. With B6/NK tie up B6 will have the assets to do what they need to. AA has a lot more to lose if this is broken up,
This is a fair assessment, but it must also be pointed out that without AA, B6 will not have the slots necessary to expand in NYC. If B6 walks away from the NEA, AA will not let B6 keep the slots that AA is leasing to B6.
With the NK merger B6 might not feel a need to expand in NY, it will have the NK slots and feel ok with that while growing out Florida and other NK strongholds like DTW ORD DFW and LAS.
TWA85 wrote:Of course there is. We are talking about the largest carrier in the world getting more access to NYC and the two largest carriers in BOS working together.As much as some don't like the NEA, there isn't any logical basis for overturning it.
TWA85 wrote:This is a fair assessment, but it must also be pointed out that without AA, B6 will not have the slots necessary to expand in NYC. If B6 walks away from the NEA, AA will not let B6 keep the slots that AA is leasing to B6.
TWA85 wrote:As much as some don't like the NEA, there isn't any logical basis for overturning it. The combined NEA operations in NYC are still smaller than DL and UA. Individually both airlines become weaker competitors against DL and UA. If the NEA is dissolved and one the partners significantly retreats (more likely AA), the end result would be the same (aka loosing a fourth large scale competitor). Yes the amount of coordination that the DOT has permitted between AA and B6 is unprecedented, but all existing precedents were also unprecedented at one time or another. Finally, given both DL and UA's competitive responses since the inception of the NEA, it is going to be very difficult for the DOJ to argue that the NEA has damaged competition and harmed consumers.
UPlog wrote:Out of curiosity, what it the burden of proof the DOJ needs to meet?
Does it simply needs to weave a probable enough narrative to produce doubt in the judges mind about the takeover outcome, or is there something more empirical it must prove?
FlyingElvii wrote:JetBlue stock hit $7.10 today.
What do they know, that we don't, other than the loss estimates.
LAXintl wrote:Delta fights American Airlines bid to have two of its execs testify at the antitrust trial.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigatio ... 022-09-22/
11C wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:JetBlue stock hit $7.10 today.
What do they know, that we don't, other than the loss estimates.
Know sure who “they” is, but the market was broadly down yesterday, so pointing out one stock’s loss seems to indicate nothing.
Midwestindy wrote:11C wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:JetBlue stock hit $7.10 today.
What do they know, that we don't, other than the loss estimates.
Know sure who “they” is, but the market was broadly down yesterday, so pointing out one stock’s loss seems to indicate nothing.
Uhhh JetBlue's stock price is literally trading at the same price/share as its lowest point of the 2020 pandemic. For context, its early 2020 Market Cap was ~$6B, its currently trading with a market cap of ~2.2B.
No major US airline has lost greater market value than B6 this year.
TonyClifton wrote:JB has grown more than AA and thus owes them for picking up the slack? What a terrible deal for JB while AA cuts costs and gets paid.
If I was JB I’d sink the NEA and focus on NK.
MLIAA wrote:Also a long shot, but maybe they trade their slots/gates in NY with DL and B6 in exchange for assets in BOS to create a large Boston hub.
MLIAA wrote:If this deal falls through, what moves does AA have left in NY? They have an operation that is smaller than the other NY hub carriers and is barely profitable, if at all. Would AA cut their losses and redeploy these assets elsewhere (CLT DFW AUS)?
Also a long shot, but maybe they trade their slots/gates in NY with DL and B6 in exchange for assets in BOS to create a large Boston hub.
MIflyer12 wrote:MLIAA wrote:If this deal falls through, what moves does AA have left in NY? They have an operation that is smaller than the other NY hub carriers and is barely profitable, if at all. Would AA cut their losses and redeploy these assets elsewhere (CLT DFW AUS)?
Also a long shot, but maybe they trade their slots/gates in NY with DL and B6 in exchange for assets in BOS to create a large Boston hub.
AA needs to provide a meaningful level of service in NYC to be relevant to national corporate accounts. That may mean spending big for slots and gates. It may mean operating individual flights at a loss in perpetuity. It's the biggest market in the country.
MIflyer12 wrote:MLIAA wrote:If this deal falls through, what moves does AA have left in NY? They have an operation that is smaller than the other NY hub carriers and is barely profitable, if at all. Would AA cut their losses and redeploy these assets elsewhere (CLT DFW AUS)?
Also a long shot, but maybe they trade their slots/gates in NY with DL and B6 in exchange for assets in BOS to create a large Boston hub.
AA needs to provide a meaningful level of service in NYC to be relevant to national corporate accounts. That may mean spending big for slots and gates. It may mean operating individual flights at a loss in perpetuity. It's the biggest market in the country.
UpNAWAy wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:MLIAA wrote:If this deal falls through, what moves does AA have left in NY? They have an operation that is smaller than the other NY hub carriers and is barely profitable, if at all. Would AA cut their losses and redeploy these assets elsewhere (CLT DFW AUS)?
Also a long shot, but maybe they trade their slots/gates in NY with DL and B6 in exchange for assets in BOS to create a large Boston hub.
AA needs to provide a meaningful level of service in NYC to be relevant to national corporate accounts. That may mean spending big for slots and gates. It may mean operating individual flights at a loss in perpetuity. It's the biggest market in the country.
That's how AA used to operate and it never worked. They canned all of those flight 3-4 years ago that had never made money in their history. NYC never made money as a whole do to those loses. I don't see them ever going back to just accepting perpetual losses just for market share. And with business travel reduced possibly permanently, chasing market share just because the big clients expect it doesn't make much sense. Now there could be a very limited number of markets that you could do as loss leaders but only if the majority are profitable can that work.