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Capricorn
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:01 am

With China's corona policy, Chinese airlines do not need any new aircraft in the next few years. But if the MAX is not re-certified in China, it will be a bigger problem for Boeing, as other regional MAX operators will not be able to fly their aircraft to China either. E.g. airlines from Vietnam or South Korea. It is a political problem between the U.S. and China, and I don't see any quick solution.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:42 pm

China Airlines already gotten 300 airbuses on order

Boeing should pull put of China now they sanctioned their employees
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:14 pm

How hard is it to convert MAX8s to MAX8-200s? Different Galleys, Different Lavoratories, the extra exit doors? what else? Is it cost prohibitive?
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:42 pm

Aesma wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Did Boeing standardize the airplanes with the Max? I know the NG 737s may have had a few custom items in the flight deck per customer number. For instance AA customer number "23" may have had a specific layout in the flight deck different from other customers. I know Boeing was doing away with customer numbers.

they did away with the customer numbers as they no longer customizing the cockpits. they're trying to build vanilla airplanes. If you want a chocolate airplane? You might have to buy an Airbus..


Does Airbus make customized cockpits ?

Vicenza wrote:
Interesting enough, but it would be extremely difficult to prove that their regulator was not operating in good faith....that would be a very subjective view. Equally, that is the regulator of a sovereign country and, irrespective of agreeing or disagreeing, they have the ultimate right to adjudicate as they see fit. They are certainly under no obligation to submit to the wishes of Boeing, the FAA or the US. Furthermore, the MAX debacle and resulting issue was caused entirely by Boeing (purely in the pursuit of profits!!!). It has nothing whatever to do with Europe, nor do I see why you even mention "NATO partnership". It certainly has nothing to do with Airbus and it would seem you are using that angle as a way to 'drum up support from quarters who have no involvement in the matter solely as a way to 'help Boeing'.


Their regulator has never certified a modern airliner to an acceptable standard. The C919 has been flying for 5 years, still not certified (and not sure the FAA and EASA would accept the Chinese certification), so its ability to judge the airworthiness of the MAX is questionable.


C919 will get the certificate on 19/9 soon. C919 don’t necessary to get the reconciliation from FAA and EASA
 
JohanTally
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:41 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
How hard is it to convert MAX8s to MAX8-200s? Different Galleys, Different Lavoratories, the extra exit doors? what else? Is it cost prohibitive?

The fuselage is built by Spirit with the exit doors in place and can't be converted economically I believe.
 
BarrenLucidity
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:02 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
Aesma wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
they did away with the customer numbers as they no longer customizing the cockpits. they're trying to build vanilla airplanes. If you want a chocolate airplane? You might have to buy an Airbus..


Does Airbus make customized cockpits ?

Vicenza wrote:
Interesting enough, but it would be extremely difficult to prove that their regulator was not operating in good faith....that would be a very subjective view. Equally, that is the regulator of a sovereign country and, irrespective of agreeing or disagreeing, they have the ultimate right to adjudicate as they see fit. They are certainly under no obligation to submit to the wishes of Boeing, the FAA or the US. Furthermore, the MAX debacle and resulting issue was caused entirely by Boeing (purely in the pursuit of profits!!!). It has nothing whatever to do with Europe, nor do I see why you even mention "NATO partnership". It certainly has nothing to do with Airbus and it would seem you are using that angle as a way to 'drum up support from quarters who have no involvement in the matter solely as a way to 'help Boeing'.


Their regulator has never certified a modern airliner to an acceptable standard. The C919 has been flying for 5 years, still not certified (and not sure the FAA and EASA would accept the Chinese certification), so its ability to judge the airworthiness of the MAX is questionable.


C919 will get the certificate on 19/9 soon. C919 don’t necessary to get the reconciliation from FAA and EASA


20:1 China attempts to use 919 certification in exchange for 737 Max certification and then directs all Chinese carriers to purchase 919.
 
DartHerald
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:07 am

If Boeing are selling these 737maxes off cheap, what's the likelihood of Ryanair stepping in?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:41 am

DartHerald wrote:
If Boeing are selling these 737maxes off cheap, what's the likelihood of Ryanair stepping in?


We don't know they will be sold cheap. It's more likely they will be delivered quickly, and there are still carriers with MAX orders and good credit. Do see the remarks above about infeasibility of the -8 to -8200 conversion. I don't know the precise mix of -8, -9, -8200 orders by year at present but I doubt Boeing will struggle to find homes for fifty frames in the next year.

There's no reason to take punitive action against China for the sanctions against Boeing execs. Boeing should be ready to business with China when China is ready to do business with Boeing.
 
Vicenza
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:37 pm

Aesma wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
Interesting enough, but it would be extremely difficult to prove that their regulator was not operating in good faith....that would be a very subjective view. Equally, that is the regulator of a sovereign country and, irrespective of agreeing or disagreeing, they have the ultimate right to adjudicate as they see fit. They are certainly under no obligation to submit to the wishes of Boeing, the FAA or the US. Furthermore, the MAX debacle and resulting issue was caused entirely by Boeing (purely in the pursuit of profits!!!). It has nothing whatever to do with Europe, nor do I see why you even mention "NATO partnership". It certainly has nothing to do with Airbus and it would seem you are using that angle as a way to 'drum up support from quarters who have no involvement in the matter solely as a way to 'help Boeing'.


Their regulator has never certified a modern airliner to an acceptable standard. The C919 has been flying for 5 years, still not certified (and not sure the FAA and EASA would accept the Chinese certification), so its ability to judge the airworthiness of the MAX is questionable.


That may well be, and I'm not questioning that. However, my point was CAAC are not obligated to comply/accede to either FAA's or Boeing's wishes, or those of a.net. They will do whatever when they are ready to, and there's nothing can be done about that. I would say that Boeing have planned for deliveries as soon as China is ready to accept them. Boeing needs the orders more than China does. Just a point of note, the MAX 7 isn't certified yet either.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:08 pm

Vicenza wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
Interesting enough, but it would be extremely difficult to prove that their regulator was not operating in good faith....that would be a very subjective view. Equally, that is the regulator of a sovereign country and, irrespective of agreeing or disagreeing, they have the ultimate right to adjudicate as they see fit. They are certainly under no obligation to submit to the wishes of Boeing, the FAA or the US. Furthermore, the MAX debacle and resulting issue was caused entirely by Boeing (purely in the pursuit of profits!!!). It has nothing whatever to do with Europe, nor do I see why you even mention "NATO partnership". It certainly has nothing to do with Airbus and it would seem you are using that angle as a way to 'drum up support from quarters who have no involvement in the matter solely as a way to 'help Boeing'.


Their regulator has never certified a modern airliner to an acceptable standard. The C919 has been flying for 5 years, still not certified (and not sure the FAA and EASA would accept the Chinese certification), so its ability to judge the airworthiness of the MAX is questionable.


That may well be, and I'm not questioning that. However, my point was CAAC are not obligated to comply/accede to either FAA's or Boeing's wishes, or those of a.net. They will do whatever when they are ready to, and there's nothing can be done about that. I would say that Boeing have planned for deliveries as soon as China is ready to accept them. Boeing needs the orders more than China does. Just a point of note, the MAX 7 isn't certified yet either.


China has shown it’s more than willing to cut off its nose to spite its own face - see the “zero Covid” policy (something that must be having a huge financial impact on the country). Refusing delivery and not ordering Boeing planes may be painful (probably not as painful as it would have been pre-Covid), but it seems it’s pain they’re prepared to take in order to make geopolitical points.

Even if China suddenly decided it wanted all its MAX ASAP, would Boeing be able to deliver? I’ve read that they’re already having to borrow engines off stored planes in order to be able to deliver new production frames due to CFM’s supply chain issues (which is affecting Airbus as well).
 
talonone
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:25 pm

This is more of a political issue, then a "technical" one. Is the fight of the Chinese to get the certification of they're "own made plane" C919 on US and UE. Has nothing to do with the Max. They have now an ace on the sleeve and they will use it. What it seems that the Chinese government don't take in account, is that the C919 has more parts that are built in UE/US then in China. A fight that is just started.
Even if the FAA/EASA will give the certification to this plane, Boeing won't resume the sales in China. I think that this is a market that Airbus/Boeing will lose on the coming years.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:32 pm

scbriml wrote:

Even if China suddenly decided it wanted all its MAX ASAP, would Boeing be able to deliver? I’ve read that they’re already having to borrow engines off stored planes in order to be able to deliver new production frames due to CFM’s supply chain issues (which is affecting Airbus as well).


This is somewhat the reverse case of reality. Boeing was ready to begin Chinese deliveries at recertification in December 2020. Waited a year until December 2021 for the matching Chinese AD. Then waited 9 months before the current decision. All with no deliveries to the Chinese airlines (one delivery to the joint finishing center).

It's reasonable to assume that a significant fraction of the Chinese deliveries could have occurred in that time. The engine swaps ocurred only because other airlines were willing to accept delivery, but China was not. So important not to put this on Boeing. No lack of willingness or ability on their part.
 
panam330
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:54 pm

eraugrad02 wrote:
Alaska may want some. They have mostly MAX-9/-10 on order. The MAX 9 are still being delivered correct right?

Yes and yes. I suspect we may see them take a few of the orphans as well. If memory serves, they've already taken a few white tails as it is.
 
ScottB
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Southwest keeps acting reluctant about 737-8s in the near-term.


We know WN wants a bunch of -7s but the certification of that variant is being held up like the -10. WN needs to replace -700s now, and while some markets can probably use the additional seats, there are quite a few which don't need them.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:26 pm

Vicenza wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
Vicenza wrote:

Back what move?


To say their regulator is not acting in good faith and not a reason to not accept. If we agreed to honor each others regulators working together in case they did something similar to Airbus, they get strangled for aircraft potentially. The pursuit of profits make it unlikely but we can no longer do business with them in good faith.


Interesting enough, but it would be extremely difficult to prove that their regulator was not operating in good faith....that would be a very subjective view. Equally, that is the regulator of a sovereign country and, irrespective of agreeing or disagreeing, they have the ultimate right to adjudicate as they see fit. They are certainly under no obligation to submit to the wishes of Boeing, the FAA or the US. Furthermore, the MAX debacle and resulting issue was caused entirely by Boeing (purely in the pursuit of profits!!!). It has nothing whatever to do with Europe, nor do I see why you even mention "NATO partnership". It certainly has nothing to do with Airbus and it would seem you are using that angle as a way to 'drum up support from quarters who have no involvement in the matter solely as a way to 'help Boeing'.


Not difficult at all....tell us your concerns, prove them wrong. At the end of the day, Russia and China are just not good countries to do business with anymore. Time to pull the band aid and move on. They've proven this inability to be trusted.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:18 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
China's stance on the MAX is weird... Boeing even built a joint COMAC-Boeing completion center to finish the 737s...


It’s not weird, it’s geopolitics.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:55 pm

Not difficult at all....tell us your concerns, prove them wrong. At the end of the day, Russia and China are just not good countries to do business with anymore. Time to pull the band aid and move on. They've proven this inability to be trusted.


I think Boeing has likewise proven its inability to be trusted and I don't blame foreign regulators one iota for moving slowly, even glacially, on recertifying the MAX and thereby not allowing deliveries to resume.

Now, having said that, there is this thing called Time Ticking Away that the Chinese regulatory bodies don't seem to recognize. Time waits for no man, nor for any specific country, and if Boeing can sell these formerly China-bound planes to a willing buyer, I also don't blame them one iota for doing so.

Have a great day, all.

Bob
 
fsnuffer
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:20 pm

This could also be a valuable sales tool. Correct me if I am wrong but there was a story, see below, that Airbus currently has a backlog of around 6,400 narrow body aircraft. Boeing could package small lot of immediate/short term deliveries bundled as part of a larger deal for additional aircraft down the road

https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/w ... ary%202020.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:59 am

Here is an interesting development. CAAC has announced that on September 14th, a meeting was held with Boeing to review the final requirements for certification of the 737 MAX in China, followed by a tour of the joint Boeing-Comac assembly facility.

The statement claims that additional issues were raised in the meeting regarding pilot training, which Boeing needs to address, and also that CAAC is finalizing their Aircraft Review report on the MAX. But recertification is imminent, according to CAAC.

The next day, September 15th, Boeing announced they would begin remarketing the Chinese MAX's currently in storage, but left open the possibility of future deliveries to China.

So wondering what really happened in that meeting. Boeing obviously felt there was little progress, CAAC is implying they are about ready to recertify. Is this posturing by one side or the other? Or both?

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3220 ... max-return

CAAC statement:

https://finance-sina-cn.translate.goog/ ... r_pto=wapp
 
USAirKid
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:24 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Here is an interesting development. CAAC has announced that on September 14th, a meeting was held with Boeing to review the final requirements for certification of the 737 MAX in China, followed by a tour of the joint Boeing-Comac assembly facility.

The statement claims that additional issues were raised in the meeting regarding pilot training, which Boeing needs to address, and also that CAAC is finalizing their Aircraft Review report on the MAX. But recertification is imminent, according to CAAC.

The next day, September 15th, Boeing announced they would begin remarketing the Chinese MAX's currently in storage, but left open the possibility of future deliveries to China.

So wondering what really happened in that meeting. Boeing obviously felt there was little progress, CAAC is implying they are about ready to recertify. Is this posturing by one side or the other? Or both?


Hrm, I'm guessing it wasn't what was said, it was how it was said. The officials said "oh yeah its fine, we'll get the paperwork done" but the message they sent was "nope, this paperwork is going to be slow walked to no end."

So Boeing has chosen to send a message of their own, that they're tired of waiting and they're ready to call China's bluff.

Of course the other question is perhaps China is cool with having their deliveries canceled or postponed. Essentially they get flexibility to get later delivery slots without paying Boeing too much.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:09 am

I think Boeing got into the government troubles between China and the US about Taiwan, the artificial islands and such. This is no real MAX issue, but political retaliation and pressure games. Boeing had hoped for China to be the key MAX market, and now they put in on hold. It's okay to move on.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:53 pm

Just thought the opposing narratives were interesting. Seems like Infowars.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:36 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Wow, that is a dramatic step. I’m not aware of another big western industrial company essentially…walking away from doing business in China. Do they really not want these aircraft at this point?

Boeing didn't walk away from China. China did that themselves. What China is doing? Probably has little or nothing to do with Boeing commercial. If they're trying to make a point? Then they've MISSED the point! Business is Business! your word is your word. and their word? Is MOOT!
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:34 pm

Are these 737s stored in the US or in China?
 
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william
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:41 pm

Noshow wrote:
I think Boeing got into the government troubles between China and the US about Taiwan, the artificial islands and such. This is no real MAX issue, but political retaliation and pressure games. Boeing had hoped for China to be the key MAX market, and now they put in on hold. It's okay to move on.


Agreed, tryin g to see how this is a negative move by Boeing. There are assets sitting on the ground not sold, so sell them. If China wants to order more, then they can place a new order.
 
SXDFC
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:28 pm

How many white tail MAX8/9s does Boeing have?
 
travaz
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:45 pm

The CAAC statement seems like a very lukewarm collection of maybe's. While some things may be lost in the translation it does not commit to much of a timeline.
"It is reported that after the questions raised at the meeting are expected to be resolved, the Civil Aviation Administration of China will release the second revision of the Boeing 737 Series Aircraft Review Report, marking that China's civil aviation industry will soon complete the entire process of resuming the introduction of new 737MAX aircraft."

Questions at the meeting are " expected to be resolved" (when we get around to it) The CAAC will release the second revision review report which will "soon" complete the process. This is Chinese double speak at it's finest. If I were Boeing I would also try to remarket some of the Aircraft.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:05 pm

Boeing invested in China with the completion center and such. They did their part. Now let's market those aircraft and hope for new orders.
 
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ClassicSpotter
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:37 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Are these 737s stored in the US or in China?


I believe they are all in the USA.
 
JohanTally
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:45 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Are these 737s stored in the US or in China?

The only stored MAXes in China were delivered before the grounding. If they don't plan on certifying the MAX perhaps the models they have could be acquired by an airline outside of China assuming the CCP would allow a one time ferry flight out of the country.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:58 pm

william wrote:
Noshow wrote:
I think Boeing got into the government troubles between China and the US about Taiwan, the artificial islands and such. This is no real MAX issue, but political retaliation and pressure games. Boeing had hoped for China to be the key MAX market, and now they put in on hold. It's okay to move on.


Agreed, tryin g to see how this is a negative move by Boeing. There are assets sitting on the ground not sold, so sell them. If China wants to order more, then they can place a new order.


Except they are sold. One assumes that the airlines involved made all the interim payments (otherwise why would Boeing build them?) Presumably all that’s unpaid is the final “delivery charge”. Less compensation payments/credits due.

It’s funny how folks here see Airbus cancelling QR orders as a negative, but Boeing doing the same to China as a positive.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:59 pm

scbriml wrote:
william wrote:
Noshow wrote:
I think Boeing got into the government troubles between China and the US about Taiwan, the artificial islands and such. This is no real MAX issue, but political retaliation and pressure games. Boeing had hoped for China to be the key MAX market, and now they put in on hold. It's okay to move on.


Agreed, tryin g to see how this is a negative move by Boeing. There are assets sitting on the ground not sold, so sell them. If China wants to order more, then they can place a new order.


Except they are sold. One assumes that the airlines involved made all the interim payments (otherwise why would Boeing build them?) Presumably all that’s unpaid is the final “delivery charge”. Less compensation payments/credits due.

It’s funny how folks here see Airbus cancelling QR orders as a negative, but Boeing doing the same to China as a positive.


First, I don't have a problem with Airbus cancelling QR's A350 orders. If Airbus does not want to resolve a paint issue that is their problem. Since Airbus is cancelling the contract, the contract must allow it. Funny thing about contracts, no one here on ANet know their contents.
Second even down payments have a shelf life unless agreed upon to extend or shift them to another product. Again, we do not know what is in the Boeing/China contract that would allow Boeing to do this.
I just put a down payment for a new car to be delivered in three months. Upon delivery, if I delay in signing the papers to buy the car it will be resold to someone else. Shocking some find this a new concept.
 
JohanTally
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:28 pm

scbriml wrote:
william wrote:
Noshow wrote:
I think Boeing got into the government troubles between China and the US about Taiwan, the artificial islands and such. This is no real MAX issue, but political retaliation and pressure games. Boeing had hoped for China to be the key MAX market, and now they put in on hold. It's okay to move on.


Agreed, tryin g to see how this is a negative move by Boeing. There are assets sitting on the ground not sold, so sell them. If China wants to order more, then they can place a new order.


Except they are sold. One assumes that the airlines involved made all the interim payments (otherwise why would Boeing build them?) Presumably all that’s unpaid is the final “delivery charge”. Less compensation payments/credits due.

It’s funny how folks here see Airbus cancelling QR orders as a negative, but Boeing doing the same to China as a positive.

Boeing to my knowledge hasn't mentioned cancelling any orders but rather plan to sell a small portion of aircraft already built aircraft to countries currently allow them to be flown. This is a leverage move and as soon as Boeing mentioned they are looking for alternative buyers we get wind of this meeting that took place the day before and that somehow China is waiting on Boeing.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:41 pm

JohanTally wrote:
scbriml wrote:
william wrote:

Agreed, tryin g to see how this is a negative move by Boeing. There are assets sitting on the ground not sold, so sell them. If China wants to order more, then they can place a new order.


Except they are sold. One assumes that the airlines involved made all the interim payments (otherwise why would Boeing build them?) Presumably all that’s unpaid is the final “delivery charge”. Less compensation payments/credits due.

It’s funny how folks here see Airbus cancelling QR orders as a negative, but Boeing doing the same to China as a positive.

Boeing to my knowledge hasn't mentioned cancelling any orders but rather plan to sell a small portion of aircraft already built aircraft to countries currently allow them to be flown. This is a leverage move and as soon as Boeing mentioned they are looking for alternative buyers we get wind of this meeting that took place the day before and that somehow China is waiting on Boeing.


Yeah, its funny how it got China talking all of a sudden. The whole thing is so political.
 
JohanTally
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:19 pm

william wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Except they are sold. One assumes that the airlines involved made all the interim payments (otherwise why would Boeing build them?) Presumably all that’s unpaid is the final “delivery charge”. Less compensation payments/credits due.

It’s funny how folks here see Airbus cancelling QR orders as a negative, but Boeing doing the same to China as a positive.

Boeing to my knowledge hasn't mentioned cancelling any orders but rather plan to sell a small portion of aircraft already built aircraft to countries currently allow them to be flown. This is a leverage move and as soon as Boeing mentioned they are looking for alternative buyers we get wind of this meeting that took place the day before and that somehow China is waiting on Boeing.


Yeah, its funny how it got China talking all of a sudden. The whole thing is so political.

While the Chinese carriers are beholden to the CCP Government Boeing on the other hand is a publicly traded corporation that answers to shareholders and their employees. China is a huge market but also a very temperamental one.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:42 pm

It seems like each side is posturing a bit to apply pressure to the other. My own view is that Boeing has invested a huge effort in persuading the Chinese to recertify, so their actions seem to be in good faith.

Whereas CAAC has endlessly been opaque, with things always going to happen in the near future, but then not actually happening. Sometimes there is a small movement that seems encouraging, but that seems more & more to be stringing along to create the appearance of progress, but without the intent of progress.

I admit that initially, I believed these moves were positive developments, even arguing against the naysayers, but I no longer do. To the extent that I can judge without being privy to the details, I would now say the Chinese are acting in bad faith.

So Boeing is not wrong to start looking at other alternatives. But also smart to hold the door open, in case China decides to cooperate, unlikely as that is.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:12 am

scbriml wrote:
Except they are sold. One assumes that the airlines involved made all the interim payments (otherwise why would Boeing build them?) Presumably all that’s unpaid is the final “delivery charge”. Less compensation payments/credits due.

It’s funny how folks here see Airbus cancelling QR orders as a negative, but Boeing doing the same to China as a positive.


I don't see anything funny at all. You are unnecessarily turning this into an A vs B debate. Most folks are fine with both manufacturers cancelling both orders. You can't hold planes forever for folks who are bound and determined to use any means at their disposal to put off taking delivery of what they've committed to... To suggest 1 is bad and 1 is good, well that's just letting your bias show...

Get these 7M8 planes in the hands of folks who will take them.... China Co. has had long enough to accept them... Ditto for U-Turn Al who's arguing about his failing custom paint... Get these A35K planes into the hands of folks who will take them.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5587
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:24 am

JetBuddy wrote:
Are these 737s stored in the US or in China?

they're stored in the USA.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:37 am

DartHerald wrote:
If Boeing are selling these 737maxes off cheap, what's the likelihood of Ryanair stepping in?

actually? Pretty Good.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:37 am

The Saudis are said to want to order a huge number too for RIA.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:23 am

william wrote:
scbriml wrote:
william wrote:

Agreed, tryin g to see how this is a negative move by Boeing. There are assets sitting on the ground not sold, so sell them. If China wants to order more, then they can place a new order.


Except they are sold. One assumes that the airlines involved made all the interim payments (otherwise why would Boeing build them?) Presumably all that’s unpaid is the final “delivery charge”. Less compensation payments/credits due.

It’s funny how folks here see Airbus cancelling QR orders as a negative, but Boeing doing the same to China as a positive.


First, I don't have a problem with Airbus cancelling QR's A350 orders. If Airbus does not want to resolve a paint issue that is their problem. Since Airbus is cancelling the contract, the contract must allow it. Funny thing about contracts, no one here on ANet know their contents.
Second even down payments have a shelf life unless agreed upon to extend or shift them to another product. Again, we do not know what is in the Boeing/China contract that would allow Boeing to do this.
I just put a down payment for a new car to be delivered in three months. Upon delivery, if I delay in signing the papers to buy the car it will be resold to someone else. Shocking some find this a new concept.


Buying an airliner is not analogous to you buying a car. Progress payments are made as the plane makes its journey through the production process. The contract will stipulate the exact payment schedule, but it’s not unusual that something like 80% of the contract price will have been paid by the time the plane is ready for delivery. The contract will almost certainly stipulate the exact frame being purchased. If Boeing subsequently sells that frame to another airline, I believe they would have to cancel the contract with the Chinese airline. Exactly the same as Airbus did with multiple QR A350s that the airline refused to accept once built - you would see one new sale and one cancellation for each frame resold.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:24 am

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Except they are sold. One assumes that the airlines involved made all the interim payments (otherwise why would Boeing build them?) Presumably all that’s unpaid is the final “delivery charge”. Less compensation payments/credits due.

It’s funny how folks here see Airbus cancelling QR orders as a negative, but Boeing doing the same to China as a positive.


I don't see anything funny at all. You are unnecessarily turning this into an A vs B debate. Most folks are fine with both manufacturers cancelling both orders. You can't hold planes forever for folks who are bound and determined to use any means at their disposal to put off taking delivery of what they've committed to... To suggest 1 is bad and 1 is good, well that's just letting your bias show...

Get these 7M8 planes in the hands of folks who will take them.... China Co. has had long enough to accept them... Ditto for U-Turn Al who's arguing about his failing custom paint... Get these A35K planes into the hands of folks who will take them.


It’s not me that’s suggested that. :wink2:
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
Posts: 512
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Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:41 am

strfyr51 wrote:
DartHerald wrote:
If Boeing are selling these 737maxes off cheap, what's the likelihood of Ryanair stepping in?

actually? Pretty Good.


Not the likely

Ryanair has max 2oos.

Inventory mostly max 8s
 
JohanTally
Topic Author
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:23 pm

scbriml wrote:
william wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Except they are sold. One assumes that the airlines involved made all the interim payments (otherwise why would Boeing build them?) Presumably all that’s unpaid is the final “delivery charge”. Less compensation payments/credits due.

It’s funny how folks here see Airbus cancelling QR orders as a negative, but Boeing doing the same to China as a positive.


First, I don't have a problem with Airbus cancelling QR's A350 orders. If Airbus does not want to resolve a paint issue that is their problem. Since Airbus is cancelling the contract, the contract must allow it. Funny thing about contracts, no one here on ANet know their contents.
Second even down payments have a shelf life unless agreed upon to extend or shift them to another product. Again, we do not know what is in the Boeing/China contract that would allow Boeing to do this.
I just put a down payment for a new car to be delivered in three months. Upon delivery, if I delay in signing the papers to buy the car it will be resold to someone else. Shocking some find this a new concept.


Buying an airliner is not analogous to you buying a car. Progress payments are made as the plane makes its journey through the production process. The contract will stipulate the exact payment schedule, but it’s not unusual that something like 80% of the contract price will have been paid by the time the plane is ready for delivery. The contract will almost certainly stipulate the exact frame being purchased. If Boeing subsequently sells that frame to another airline, I believe they would have to cancel the contract with the Chinese airline. Exactly the same as Airbus did with multiple QR A350s that the airline refused to accept once built - you would see one new sale and one cancellation for each frame resold.

During the grounding I wonder what the progress payments actually looked like. Also contracts with China seem to be quite different because oftentimes the airlines aren't disclosed almost up until delivery. Boeing's C suite probably has a better grasp of the contractual obligations required of them than us speculators. As of now Boeing plans to keep a majority of the deliverable China bound aircraft exclusive for China but that will change if things unravel in the South China Sea.
 
BEG2IAH
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:42 pm

Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:36 pm

scbriml wrote:
Buying an airliner is not analogous to you buying a car. Progress payments are made as the plane makes its journey through the production process. The contract will stipulate the exact payment schedule, but it’s not unusual that something like 80% of the contract price will have been paid by the time the plane is ready for delivery. The contract will almost certainly stipulate the exact frame being purchased. If Boeing subsequently sells that frame to another airline, I believe they would have to cancel the contract with the Chinese airline. Exactly the same as Airbus did with multiple QR A350s that the airline refused to accept once built - you would see one new sale and one cancellation for each frame resold.


I have never heard that a pre-delivery payments with major OEMs go up to 80% of the contract price. It's more like 15-30% of the total list purchase price, i.e., the price before any discounts or credits are applied. Even if you apply a heavy discount you wouldn't be anywhere near 50%, let alone 80%. And I wouldn't assume that major airlines prepay obscene amounts of money especially for a well-established mature product like a B737.
 
Noshow
Posts: 3700
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Boeing to resell MAX aircraft that can't be delivered to Chinese Airlines

Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:49 pm

You typically pay the supplies needed by the manufacturer to build your product at the specific time and slice by slice. Defined by production milestones. You don't pay his man-hours until the final handover.

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