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spinkid
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How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:06 am

I'm wondering how this flight is doing.
I've seen it priced at $149 roundtrip which isn't bad if you live North of Bradley's catchment area. Others are $349-$399. Then again, those North, will consider Boston.

South of it, its easier to drive to LGA, than to BDL, and again, plenty of non stop choices from all those places, and increasingly from HPN and HVN as well.

I saw a feel decent prices using it as a connection, but almost all have non stops to BDL or could connect through DTW or ATL.

I'm pretty sure it was pointed out as slot squatting at one point. With all the recent regional cuts or ones in limbo these planes could be better off flown elsewhere.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:34 am

Just like a number of DL’s newest routes, it’s doing great. At slot squatting, that is.
 
MAH4546
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:26 am

It’s absolutely slot squatting, same with BOSHPN and LGAIAD. Will be gone once Delta doesn’t need to squat on them anymore.
 
bigbird
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:23 pm

There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.
 
SESGDL
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:28 pm

bigbird wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.


It’s not. This is pure slot squatting. These flights are definitely losing money and probably almost completely empty. DL has dramatically cut core markets from MSP and DTW to fund crap like this because they have captive markets there and don’t want other carriers to come in take these slots or gain more of a foothold in NYC and BOS. All the carriers do it, but let’s not act like it’s “smart.” It’s anticompetitive is what it is.

Jeremy
 
zuckie13
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:51 pm

Anyone know what kind of loads they are having on those? Just curious.

If you want to compare prices to Amtrak going to Hartford I guess - can get those for as cheap as around $25 for a three hour journey from Penn Station.
 
tjerome
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:54 pm

There actually are some decent loads on those flights, at least today.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:57 pm

SESGDL wrote:
bigbird wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.


It’s not. This is pure slot squatting. These flights are definitely losing money and probably almost completely empty. DL has dramatically cut core markets from MSP and DTW to fund crap like this because they have captive markets there and don’t want other carriers to come in take these slots or gain more of a foothold in NYC and BOS. All the carriers do it, but let’s not act like it’s “smart.” It’s anticompetitive is what it is.

Jeremy

It can be both smart business and anticompetitive. As for the nothing wrong with it, I definitely disagree with that from a use of public infrastructure/resources point of view.
 
jasoncrh
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:01 pm

I doubt the flights are empty. They're probably full of people making connections to Delta's many flights at LGA. Very few if anybody just going to / from NYC,but many people connecting to the SDFs, DCAs, BHMs, DFWs, IAHs, etc etc etc available at DL's LGA station. Probably wont make money on its own, but it could be a nice system contributor, similar to AUS/SAT-IAH on United.
 
IADCA
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:02 pm

SESGDL wrote:
bigbird wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.


It’s not. This is pure slot squatting. These flights are definitely losing money and probably almost completely empty. DL has dramatically cut core markets from MSP and DTW to fund crap like this because they have captive markets there and don’t want other carriers to come in take these slots or gain more of a foothold in NYC and BOS. All the carriers do it, but let’s not act like it’s “smart.” It’s anticompetitive is what it is.

Jeremy


It's pretty blatant slot-squatting, but this does at least effectively serve connections, although it's probably just rerouting traffic that would otherwise have gone over other hubs.

These flights are a disaster for the efficient use of public resources and I'd be shocked if they came close to breaking even, but they're not as awful as some other things they could have wasted the slots on.

jasoncrh wrote:
I doubt the flights are empty. They're probably full of people making connections to Delta's many flights at LGA. Very few if anybody just going to / from NYC,but many people connecting to the SDFs, DCAs, BHMs, DFWs, IAHs, etc etc etc available at DL's LGA station. Probably wont make money on its own, but it could be a nice system contributor, similar to AUS/SAT-IAH on United.


This is correct, but it's a legitimate debate about whether an airport as capacity-constrained as LGA is should be utilized to connect people from Hartford to Louisville when the O&D markets in and out of NYC are what causes the constraints in the first place.
Last edited by IADCA on Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:04 pm

How is this different than, say GSO-CLT or TPA-MIA or CSG-ATL.
 
jbs2886
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:05 pm

SESGDL wrote:
bigbird wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.


It’s not. This is pure slot squatting. These flights are definitely losing money and probably almost completely empty. DL has dramatically cut core markets from MSP and DTW to fund crap like this because they have captive markets there and don’t want other carriers to come in take these slots or gain more of a foothold in NYC and BOS. All the carriers do it, but let’s not act like it’s “smart.” It’s anticompetitive is what it is.

Jeremy


How is it not good business? That’s the premise. No airline is going to just give up valuable slots when business demand is still depressed. This is a short-term loss for long-term competitive position. You may not like it but it doesn’t mean it’s not a good business decision.
 
Cory6188
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:32 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
How is this different than, say GSO-CLT or TPA-MIA or CSG-ATL.


The big issue is that LGA barely hangs on operationally on a good day given how capacity-constrained it is, and then it totally falls apart if there's some minor wind or rain. Obviously, DL is just following the rules in terms of utilizing its slots, but it's a mess in terms of pax experience when people start blowing connections, etc., and it's adding unnecessary connecting volume to an airport that frankly can't handle it.

ATL and MIA are obviously busy, but not anywhere near LGA in terms of operating at nearly 100%, all the time.
 
IADCA
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:38 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
How is this different than, say GSO-CLT or TPA-MIA or CSG-ATL.


Those airports aren't slot-constrained. And TPA-MIA is over 200 miles even by air! It's well over a 4-hour drive.
 
IADCA
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:45 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
bigbird wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.


It’s not. This is pure slot squatting. These flights are definitely losing money and probably almost completely empty. DL has dramatically cut core markets from MSP and DTW to fund crap like this because they have captive markets there and don’t want other carriers to come in take these slots or gain more of a foothold in NYC and BOS. All the carriers do it, but let’s not act like it’s “smart.” It’s anticompetitive is what it is.

Jeremy


How is it not good business? That’s the premise. No airline is going to just give up valuable slots when business demand is still depressed. This is a short-term loss for long-term competitive position. You may not like it but it doesn’t mean it’s not a good business decision.


There's a case to be made that if they can't use the slots profitably themselves, they should lease them out. Even short-term leases at LGA would find takers from airlines that would use the slots for NYC O&D centric flights, not helping people from Hartford get to Louisville.
 
ScottB
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:17 pm

Cory6188 wrote:
The big issue is that LGA barely hangs on operationally on a good day given how capacity-constrained it is, and then it totally falls apart if there's some minor wind or rain. Obviously, DL is just following the rules in terms of utilizing its slots, but it's a mess in terms of pax experience when people start blowing connections, etc., and it's adding unnecessary connecting volume to an airport that frankly can't handle it.

ATL and MIA are obviously busy, but not anywhere near LGA in terms of operating at nearly 100%, all the time.


Right, but LGA operates at near-capacity virtually all the time precisely because the slots have use-it-or-lose it conditions. And there are very good reasons for the use-it-or-lose it rules, since otherwise slotholders would just sit on unused slots in order to jack up fares.

The "unnecessary connecting volume" argument is a red herring. Connecting passengers burden the infrastructure at a given airport less than O&D passengers since they don't need rides to/from the airport (apart from the planes on which they arrive/depart), typically don't need to clear security, don't need to check or claim bags, etc. It matters not at all whether a connecting passenger came to/from YUL or BDL or ORH or DEN.

LGA is a mess but I don't see that changing unless the government were willing to hand airlines a bunch of cash to give up some of their slots.

IADCA wrote:
There's a case to be made that if they can't use the slots profitably themselves, they should lease them out. Even short-term leases at LGA would find takers from airlines that would use the slots for NYC O&D centric flights, not helping people from Hartford get to Louisville.


I don't see that as being realistic beyond a small handful of flights. Short-term leases wouldn't allow for carriers to build market presence and you still have the challenges of making accommodations at ground facilities. Plus it's hard to say that a passenger connecting from Hartford to Louisville isn't profitable for Delta -- even if it would be more optimal to connect them somewhere like DTW.
 
HVNandrew
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:29 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
It’s absolutely slot squatting, same with BOSHPN and LGAIAD. Will be gone once Delta doesn’t need to squat on them anymore.

Is BOS-HPN slot squatting though? I didn't think HPN was slot controlled per se, and even if it is on some level is access to the airport really that valuable? It seems like a lot of plane for that route, even if it is just to keep slots or whatever the equivalent is at HPN.

I had said in another thread that I'm quite surprised 9K doesn't fly this route - would seem to fit more with their business model, network, fleet, etc.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:34 pm

I'm mostly surprised that there isn't a better market to serve than BDL. Or is it an operational issue in terms of needing the aircraft close by and insignificant if cancelled in bad weather to free up capacity instead of flying a truly viable market???
 
Cory6188
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:08 pm

ScottB wrote:
The "unnecessary connecting volume" argument is a red herring. Connecting passengers burden the infrastructure at a given airport less than O&D passengers since they don't need rides to/from the airport (apart from the planes on which they arrive/depart), typically don't need to clear security, don't need to check or claim bags, etc. It matters not at all whether a connecting passenger came to/from YUL or BDL or ORH or DEN.


That's a fair counterargument. I guess the discussion at that point could be if the # of slots should be reduced overall to force connecting traffic to go elsewhere (i.e. any hub airport that operates more smoothly, with capacity to spare - so anything but the NYC airports...notably EWR/LGA, which are seriously operationally constrained, a bit more so than JFK even), and really push LGA to be more O&D-focused, but that'd take a level of coordination and FAA mandate that I frankly doubt we'll ever see.
 
IADCA
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:40 pm

ScottB wrote:

The "unnecessary connecting volume" argument is a red herring. Connecting passengers burden the infrastructure at a given airport less than O&D passengers since they don't need rides to/from the airport (apart from the planes on which they arrive/depart), typically don't need to clear security, don't need to check or claim bags, etc. It matters not at all whether a connecting passenger came to/from YUL or BDL or ORH or DEN.



It's not a red herring, it's just addressing two different issues. One is total airport capacity; one is what the portions of the airport that actually limit capacity should be used for. It seems strange to me to use a capacity-limited airport that is in that condition because of enormous O&D demand as a connecting hub when the limitations are primarily runway/taxiway capacity: for that limitation, you need to use the runways twice to serve a single connecting passenger (one landing, one takeoff) but only one for an O&D passenger.

ScottB wrote:

IADCA wrote:
There's a case to be made that if they can't use the slots profitably themselves, they should lease them out. Even short-term leases at LGA would find takers from airlines that would use the slots for NYC O&D centric flights, not helping people from Hartford get to Louisville.


I don't see that as being realistic beyond a small handful of flights. Short-term leases wouldn't allow for carriers to build market presence and you still have the challenges of making accommodations at ground facilities. Plus it's hard to say that a passenger connecting from Hartford to Louisville isn't profitable for Delta -- even if it would be more optimal to connect them somewhere like DTW.


I mean, we're talking about a fairly small handful of flights here. You would be looking at something like leasing additional slots to Spirit or someone else already with dedicated gate space and a presence, not a new entrant. They're probably going to add frequency, not open new routes. On the other hand, UA took a short term lease for new entry on several routes at JFK, so never say never.

I have no idea if that particular passenger is profitable or not, but that's not the argument from a regulatory perspective. The point is that from a big-picture perspective, the highest and best use of a takeoff slot at LGA is almost certainly not flying to Hartford. If a regulated market is not functioning to allocate resources to their highest and best uses, that suggests some regulatory changes could be warranted.

But from a pure medium term profits perspective, I'd be surprised if they're making more money flying to Hartford - considering they're likely cannibalizing connecting volumes elsewhere to do it - than they would be by just leasing out the slots.
 
ScottB
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:42 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
I'm mostly surprised that there isn't a better market to serve than BDL. Or is it an operational issue in terms of needing the aircraft close by and insignificant if cancelled in bad weather to free up capacity instead of flying a truly viable market???


It's really just about the route being short, so it uses up less crew/aircraft time as well as less fuel than flying something like LGA-MCI/JAX/BTR.

Back in the day, US Airways slot-squatted with LGA-PHL; they were operating north of 20 daily round-trips in 2011 almost entirely with regional aircraft on a 96-mile sector.
 
ScottB
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:57 pm

IADCA wrote:
It's not a red herring, it's just addressing two different issues. One is total airport capacity; one is what the portions of the airport that actually limit capacity should be used for. It seems strange to me to use a capacity-limited airport that is in that condition because of enormous O&D demand as a connecting hub when the limitations are primarily runway/taxiway capacity: for that limitation, you need to use the runways twice to serve a single connecting passenger (one landing, one takeoff) but only one for an O&D passenger.


In ordinary times you'd be correct, but these are not ordinary times. NYC had huge O&D demand three years ago but that hasn't all come back yet, and it's going to be a while with reductions in business travel and a large number of workers still working from home. And we're also in a situation where the large airlines and regional affiliates have had difficulty with staffing their planned flying, so while the preferred alternative for a slot might have been an A321 to MCO, the feasible plan might be an E175 to BDL instead. We're not currently at a point where connecting passengers at LGA are squeezing out NYC O&D passengers -- and DL would prefer to serve the latter group if possible, since they're going to be more profitable.

IADCA wrote:
I have no idea if that particular passenger is profitable or not, but that's not the argument from a regulatory perspective. The point is that from a big-picture perspective, the highest and best use of a takeoff slot at LGA is almost certainly not flying to Hartford. If a regulated market is not functioning to allocate resources to their highest and best uses, that suggests some regulatory changes could be warranted.

But from a pure medium term profits perspective, I'd be surprised if they're making more money flying to Hartford - considering they're likely cannibalizing connecting volumes elsewhere to do it - than they would be by just leasing out the slots.


Your argument wasn't about the highest and best use of takeoff slots or whether passenger routings were optimally efficient; it was:

IADCA wrote:
There's a case to be made that if they can't use the slots profitably themselves, they should lease them out.


And from a first-order analysis, they might make more money by leasing out a slot than from connecting passengers, but there's also the second-order effect of yield dilution from having more competing capacity in the market. That's better for consumers, definitely, but likely not workable from a regulatory standpoint.
 
mesasurf
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:05 pm

SESGDL wrote:
bigbird wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.


It’s not. This is pure slot squatting. These flights are definitely losing money and probably almost completely empty. DL has dramatically cut core markets from MSP and DTW to fund crap like this because they have captive markets there and don’t want other carriers to come in take these slots or gain more of a foothold in NYC and BOS. All the carriers do it, but let’s not act like it’s “smart.” It’s anticompetitive is what it is.

Jeremy

Don’t hate the player, hate the game, Lol.
 
SESGDL
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:46 pm

mesasurf wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
bigbird wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.


It’s not. This is pure slot squatting. These flights are definitely losing money and probably almost completely empty. DL has dramatically cut core markets from MSP and DTW to fund crap like this because they have captive markets there and don’t want other carriers to come in take these slots or gain more of a foothold in NYC and BOS. All the carriers do it, but let’s not act like it’s “smart.” It’s anticompetitive is what it is.

Jeremy

Don’t hate the player, hate the game, Lol.


You can hate both.

Jeremy
 
Lootess
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:52 pm

People have weird definition of slot squatting now, going 3x daily in secondary metro airport is not.

US LGA-PHL was squatting at 12x daily. Especially when not marketed as shuttle service.
 
SESGDL
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:52 pm

jasoncrh wrote:
I doubt the flights are empty. They're probably full of people making connections to Delta's many flights at LGA. Very few if anybody just going to / from NYC,but many people connecting to the SDFs, DCAs, BHMs, DFWs, IAHs, etc etc etc available at DL's LGA station. Probably wont make money on its own, but it could be a nice system contributor, similar to AUS/SAT-IAH on United.


Nearly 50% of DL’s 10 lowest systemwide load factors this summer were flights to/from LGA. I doubt these flights are full.

Jeremy
 
HVNwxROC
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 6:27 pm

I live in the New Haven area and it takes 50% longer for me to drive to/from LGA than BDL and that's WITHOUT traffic. With traffic or during rush hour, the trip to LGA is twice as long as to BDL. On top of that, parking for me at BDL is only 1/3 the cost of parking at LGA.

Last week, I flew to Florida from BDL via LGA in both directions. The cost was comparable or even cheaper than similarly timed flights via ATL and the connection through LGA was a breeze! The new terminal is a huge improvement! I estimate that both of my flights were at least 75% full too. I've already booked several more flights from BDL via LGA, both for business and leisure trips, over the next few months.
 
cloudboy
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:46 pm

I suspect most of the passengers on these flights aren't going to LGA as their final destination. Looking at the seat maps anyways over the next week most flights are at a minimum half full, and some much more than that. I suspect DL is trying to pic, up people from the northern CT/Western MA/Southern VT area and flying them through LGA and onto other destinations. You loose some of the discount passengers who are taking the direct cheapo flights, but you gain by offering a whole lot more destinations. I think it is a wise move and may be the way going forward. I think it would make more sense with a turboprop, but doesn't seem like they have any of those anymore. Plus, it's a short enough turn-around that you can use it to utilize an otherwise idle aircraft.
 
continental004
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:02 pm

This flight should not exist. We need real high speed rail here in the USA!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:29 pm

SESGDL wrote:
bigbird wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.


It’s not. This is pure slot squatting. These flights are definitely losing money and probably almost completely empty. DL has dramatically cut core markets from MSP and DTW to fund crap like this because they have captive markets there and don’t want other carriers to come in take these slots or gain more of a foothold in NYC and BOS. All the carriers do it, but let’s not act like it’s “smart.” It’s anticompetitive is what it is.

Jeremy


Carriers get to use their slots in they ways they want. That's the way the game is played.

Now, as for as being smart business... There's a case for long-term value of LGA slots. NYC isn't going away. It's not as if PANYNJ and the FAA will be adding a ton more take-off capacity into LGA/JFK/EWR in the next decade. You're not going to get a magic non-stop express train from EWR or JFK into Midtown or Lower Manhattan -- LGA will remain the preferred domestic short-haul airport.

It's probably not O&D. Yes, there are probably lots of destinations DL can send people BDL-LGA-XXX, but maybe at the cost of yields BDL-ATL-XXX or BDL-DTW-XXX. I'm willing to trust DL has done the math, and continues to review the math. They'll stop if it's stupid.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:31 am

continental004 wrote:
This flight should not exist. We need real high speed rail here in the USA!


High-speed rail is best for point-to-point traffic, and connecting Amtrak with planes at airports is something that has yet to be developed beyond the stations at BDL, BWI, EWR, MKE and SJC. Those stations see a high volume of passengers, but most of those travelers use the suburban rail lines offered at those stations and not Amtrak's main lines. It's a shame that the Feds do not see the point in building more multimodal stations, since adding trains to air travel is a greener way of covering short distances, but the amount of money needed to get Amtrak into airports without existing rail stations tends to scare away American officials. We also have massive problems with NIMBYs in the US not wanting to give up their land for right-of-way. Trains are a bureaucratic nightmare in the US mostly due to our legal system and federal-to-state funding mechanisms. Until laws are passed to enable the Feds simply to take over land and build tracks as needed without state intervention, we won't be seeing much new HSR anytime soon.
 
kiowa
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:40 am

bigbird wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.


Nothing wrong with it? I would say everything is wrong with slot squatting. Waste of petroleum, manpower, increase in congestion at busy airports, wasted time on airframes, pollution to the environment, ect. The problem is not with Delta doing it, it is the government rules that perpetuate it.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:50 am

The issue is, with the perimeter rule there is only a finite number of places airlines can fly to. At least LGA BDL offers a new destination/connections than another NY-Florida flight.

I’ve thought that a good option would be allowing airlines to swap slots for beyond perimeter routes. Say 3 slots for 2 beyond perimeter. Benefits in that new places get served, and congestion in LGA gets reduced.
 
maximairways
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:08 am

I'm flying PBI-LGA-BDL next Friday. It offered decent timing in alternative to ATL. My LGA-BDL flight looks to have about 10 open seats currently.

I'll add I used to often fly BDL-EWR. It was on an A320 or 738, and went out completely full. Now EWR is a bigger connection airport for UA than LGA is for DL, but LGA offered a lot better connections to cities north of ATL or east of DTW when flying from BDL.
 
jbs2886
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:21 am

IADCA wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

It’s not. This is pure slot squatting. These flights are definitely losing money and probably almost completely empty. DL has dramatically cut core markets from MSP and DTW to fund crap like this because they have captive markets there and don’t want other carriers to come in take these slots or gain more of a foothold in NYC and BOS. All the carriers do it, but let’s not act like it’s “smart.” It’s anticompetitive is what it is.

Jeremy


How is it not good business? That’s the premise. No airline is going to just give up valuable slots when business demand is still depressed. This is a short-term loss for long-term competitive position. You may not like it but it doesn’t mean it’s not a good business decision.


There's a case to be made that if they can't use the slots profitably themselves, they should lease them out. Even short-term leases at LGA would find takers from airlines that would use the slots for NYC O&D centric flights, not helping people from Hartford get to Louisville.


Profit doesn’t mean competitive. That’s a terrible test that would be counterproductive to your actual concern.
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2343
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:52 am

SESGDL wrote:
bigbird wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.


It’s not. This is pure slot squatting. These flights are definitely losing money and probably almost completely empty. DL has dramatically cut core markets from MSP and DTW to fund crap like this because they have captive markets there and don’t want other carriers to come in take these slots or gain more of a foothold in NYC and BOS. All the carriers do it, but let’s not act like it’s “smart.” It’s anticompetitive is what it is.

Jeremy
. 100% Couldn’t have said it better myself. MSP and DTW are on the short end of the stick to fund this. Really sad how much Midwest flying has been axed via the 2
 
stlgph
Posts: 11724
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:40 pm

Hartford to LaGuardia on Delta serves the same functionality as American to Philadelphia and National.

To sit here and say it shouldn't exist just because *you* have a problem with the 101 miles and can't give any other context regarding Delta system operational excellence brings zero value to the conversation.
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1735
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:06 pm

Interesting and very telling that DL would rather allocate increasingly costly and scarce RJ resources to this mission rather than serving, say, DRO, FNT and SBA.
 
ScottB
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:30 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Interesting and very telling that DL would rather allocate increasingly costly and scarce RJ resources to this mission rather than serving, say, DRO, FNT and SBA.


It's just about the least expensive way to squat on LGA slots apart from operating something like LGA-SWF or LGA-ISP. And if the baseline assumption is that pre-Covid demand for travel to/from LGA will eventually return, then you try to hold on to the slots.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3681
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:07 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Interesting and very telling that DL would rather allocate increasingly costly and scarce RJ resources to this mission rather than serving, say, DRO, FNT and SBA.


How do you want to serve DRO or SBA? SLC-DRO? SLC-SBA? Quite frankly, in terms of block hours, 3x BDL isn't even an entire airplanes worth of flying, far from it.
 
User avatar
CitizenJustin
Posts: 986
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Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:49 pm

SESGDL wrote:
bigbird wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.


It’s not. This is pure slot squatting. These flights are definitely losing money and probably almost completely empty. DL has dramatically cut core markets from MSP and DTW to fund crap like this because they have captive markets there and don’t want other carriers to come in take these slots or gain more of a foothold in NYC and BOS. All the carriers do it, but let’s not act like it’s “smart.” It’s anticompetitive is what it is.

Jeremy



Any stats on the cuts at MSP and DTW?
 
IADCA
Posts: 2684
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:56 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

How is it not good business? That’s the premise. No airline is going to just give up valuable slots when business demand is still depressed. This is a short-term loss for long-term competitive position. You may not like it but it doesn’t mean it’s not a good business decision.


There's a case to be made that if they can't use the slots profitably themselves, they should lease them out. Even short-term leases at LGA would find takers from airlines that would use the slots for NYC O&D centric flights, not helping people from Hartford get to Louisville.


Profit doesn’t mean competitive. That’s a terrible test that would be counterproductive to your actual concern.


They're two different perspectives. One, I'm not sure this is a positive from the perspective of a DL shareholder. Two, I'm not sure it's a positive from the perspective of anyone who wants to see LGA running optimally and serving the highest number of people.
 
N766UA
Posts: 8452
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:03 pm

LOL 25 min flight blocked at 1:10. Endeavor can't staff their jets, yet they're out here flying this 3 times a day? I mean, okay.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4318
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:05 pm

IADCA wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
IADCA wrote:

There's a case to be made that if they can't use the slots profitably themselves, they should lease them out. Even short-term leases at LGA would find takers from airlines that would use the slots for NYC O&D centric flights, not helping people from Hartford get to Louisville.


Profit doesn’t mean competitive. That’s a terrible test that would be counterproductive to your actual concern.


They're two different perspectives. One, I'm not sure this is a positive from the perspective of a DL shareholder. Two, I'm not sure it's a positive from the perspective of anyone who wants to see LGA running optimally and serving the highest number of people.


As a DL shareholder I’m very glad DL isn’t giving up immensely valuable slots now and taking a long-term view of the operations. Shareholders want long-term value-giving up these slots is the antithesis of that.

Again, if you want to not like it, fine, that’s reasonable. But to say it’s not in the interests of DL to keep these slots or put some profitability test is just wrong.
 
airlineworker
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:20 pm

Airways did the same thing with Dash-8's clogging up the gates and arrivals and departures.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1835
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:24 pm

bigbird wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this. It is smart business. If it was your airline you would do the same thing.


Those slots used to belong to other airlines, and yes. When it was their business, they did the same thing. That is what you do with valuable slots you have to protect. You keep them active at the lowest cost.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:39 pm

Like I said, with 1,500 mile limit, what unserved markets are there that are financially viable? At least BDL/ALB and the like link up more places along the east coast. Better than more DCA/BOS shuttles or flights to Florida.
 
PVD757
Posts: 3322
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:23 pm

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:32 am

LGA allows DL to serve market pairs north of ATL and east of DTW from places like BDL, ALB, and PVD.
 
jplatts
Posts: 5976
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:11 am

TonyClifton wrote:
Like I said, with 1,500 mile limit, what unserved markets are there that are financially viable?


There are a few more within-LGA perimeter destinations in the Southeast such as AGS, CHA, JAN, and TLH that can probably support DL nonstop service to LGA with AGS, CHA, JAN, and TLH being 4 of the top domestic destinations traveled to from NYC that doesn't currently have nonstop service to LGA, JFK, or EWR.

Here were the PDEW's of LGA-AGS/CHA/JAN/TLH in Q4 2021:
NYC-TLH - 57
NYC-CHA - 56
NYC-JAN - 56
NYC-AGS - 52

DL would probably be able to get enough O&D traffic onto LGA-AGS/CHA/JAN/TLH if DL adds LGA-AGS/CHA/JAN/TLH nonstop service.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: How is DL's new LGA-BDL 3X Daily doing?

Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:50 pm

jplatts wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Like I said, with 1,500 mile limit, what unserved markets are there that are financially viable?


There are a few more within-LGA perimeter destinations in the Southeast such as AGS, CHA, JAN, and TLH that can probably support DL nonstop service to LGA with AGS, CHA, JAN, and TLH being 4 of the top domestic destinations traveled to from NYC that doesn't currently have nonstop service to LGA, JFK, or EWR.

Here were the PDEW's of LGA-AGS/CHA/JAN/TLH in Q4 2021:
NYC-TLH - 57
NYC-CHA - 56
NYC-JAN - 56
NYC-AGS - 52

DL would probably be able to get enough O&D traffic onto LGA-AGS/CHA/JAN/TLH if DL adds LGA-AGS/CHA/JAN/TLH nonstop service.


The issue with those is they’ll tie up a jet for much longer than a hop to Hartford. Regional block hours are limited, so it comes down to best use of resources. JAN would tie up a single tail for 5-6 hours. CHA has been served intermittently, I could see it coming back.

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