zkojq wrote:

People often make having dual engine sourcing out to be a far bigger deal than it actually is. Each engine type has it's benefits. For the 787, the Trent is better for mid haul routes whilst the GENX is better for longer haul ones. Given the large breadth of fleets that this rumored order is supposedly going to cover (with multiple configurations likely), I'm sure a place could be found for Trents.

In recent years United has introduced a second engine type to their 767-300 fleet and intended to do so to their A32x fleet as well (with the ex Easyjet aircraft). They have had dual engine sourcing for their 777 fleet for years - albeit as a result of the merger rather than by choice.

Given the situation of the PW4000 - an engine having a lengthy grounding despite being 'mature' with 20+ years in service - there's something to be said in terms of risk management for diversifying your engine sourcing. Imagine if in ten years time (once the bulk of this rumored order is delivered) if there's a similar length grounding for the GENX1B - would put United in quite the pickle to put things mildly.

What second engine type did United introduce to their 767-300 fleet? Their entire 767-300 fleet has the same Pratt and Whitney engines including the 3 frames they picked up from Hawaiian.
The Easyjet aircraft they purchased were never entering the fleet United purchased those aircraft specifically for parts to support their existing A320/19 fleet.

United isn't about to introduce a complexity to their 787 fleet by going with RR engines, when they finally do announce this order I 100% believe GE will continue to be the sole provider of engines for United Airlines 787s.

Nothing leaked yet from Tuesday's, Dec 6th, Board Meeting on this upcoming order. Maybe we will hear something next week?

I AM BURSTING WITH ANTICIPATION, even though I expect it to be all 787’s (the 8, 9, 10) but it could be just 2 types.
Naturally I would love a great surprise!!!

VC10er wrote:

I AM BURSTING WITH ANTICIPATION, even though I expect it to be all 787’s (the 8, 9, 10) but it could be just 2 types.
Naturally I would love a great surprise!!!

The only surprise would be UA not ordering Boeing so nothing spectacular here.

First300 wrote:

VC10er wrote:

I AM BURSTING WITH ANTICIPATION, even though I expect it to be all 787’s (the 8, 9, 10) but it could be just 2 types.
Naturally I would love a great surprise!!!

The only surprise would be UA not ordering Boeing so nothing spectacular here.

Potential big spectacular surprises in my head:

100 787’s and 77X’s

100 787’s & 45 A350

The 748i would be the biggest shock “Boeing keeps 747 line open in last minute order for 44 747-8/9 just for United”

Yes, everything going Airbus would be a shock because everyone believes Boeing won the “winner take all” competition.

VC10er wrote:

First300 wrote:

VC10er wrote:

I AM BURSTING WITH ANTICIPATION, even though I expect it to be all 787’s (the 8, 9, 10) but it could be just 2 types.
Naturally I would love a great surprise!!!

The only surprise would be UA not ordering Boeing so nothing spectacular here.

Potential big spectacular surprises in my head:

100 787’s and 77X’s

100 787’s & 45 A350

The 748i would be the biggest shock “Boeing keeps 747 line open in last minute order for 44 747-8/9 just for United”

Yes, everything going Airbus would be a shock because everyone believes Boeing won the “winner take all” competition.

Nah... not as big of a shock as as Airbus reopening the A380 production line for United. That'd be an interesting move.
Either that or PAX 767's becoming a thing again....

JJWess wrote:

VC10er wrote:

First300 wrote:

The only surprise would be UA not ordering Boeing so nothing spectacular here.

Potential big spectacular surprises in my head:

100 787’s and 77X’s

100 787’s & 45 A350

The 748i would be the biggest shock “Boeing keeps 747 line open in last minute order for 44 747-8/9 just for United”

Yes, everything going Airbus would be a shock because everyone believes Boeing won the “winner take all” competition.

Nah... not as big of a shock as as Airbus reopening the A380 production line for United. That'd be an interesting move.
Either that or PAX 767's becoming a thing again....

The announcement of a 787-7 launch by 2029!!!

JJWess wrote:

VC10er wrote:

First300 wrote:

The only surprise would be UA not ordering Boeing so nothing spectacular here.

Potential big spectacular surprises in my head:

100 787’s and 77X’s

100 787’s & 45 A350

The 748i would be the biggest shock “Boeing keeps 747 line open in last minute order for 44 747-8/9 just for United”

Yes, everything going Airbus would be a shock because everyone believes Boeing won the “winner take all” competition.

Nah... not as big of a shock as as Airbus reopening the A380 production line for United. That'd be an interesting move.
Either that or PAX 767's becoming a thing again....

Or maybe 100 Spruce Gooses. Or is that 100 Spruce Geese?

A handful of 767/777 freighters!

Polot wrote:

airtran737 wrote:

12/13 at 1245-1315 will be the announcement at the Boeing CHS facility. The invite calls it a historic announcement with Scott Kirby and Boeing Commercial Airplanes CEO Stan Deal.

It’ll be interesting to see what happens to the A350 order. UA is unlikely to announce any Airbus order (eg conversion to A321neos) at a Boeing event.

It could be like delta getting substitution rights for their 787 order on the 739s before cancelling. It may already have been swappable to the XLR order that was placed

VC10er wrote:

First300 wrote:

VC10er wrote:

I AM BURSTING WITH ANTICIPATION, even though I expect it to be all 787’s (the 8, 9, 10) but it could be just 2 types.
Naturally I would love a great surprise!!!

The only surprise would be UA not ordering Boeing so nothing spectacular here.

Potential big spectacular surprises in my head:

100 787’s and 77X’s

100 787’s & 45 A350

The 748i would be the biggest shock “Boeing keeps 747 line open in last minute order for 44 747-8/9 just for United”

Yes, everything going Airbus would be a shock because everyone believes Boeing won the “winner take all” competition.

Absolutely no chance Airbus or the 747 are getting an order. The announcement is at Boeing South Charleston, so it will be mostly 787 maybe 737 top ups.

Previous posts were deleted (I guess because no source?) but so everyone is clear UA/Boeing will have a “historic announcement” on Tuesday 12/13 at CHS with Scott Kirby and Stan Deal (Boeing Commercial CEO).

Source: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-12-08/

Polot wrote:

Previous posts were deleted (I guess because no source?) but so everyone is clear UA/Boeing will have a “historic announcement” on Tuesday 12/13 at CHS with Scott Kirby and Stan Deal (Boeing Commercial CEO).

Source: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-12-08/

I wonder what qualifies as a historic order…100, 150, 200 aircraft?

It’s probably going to be a bunch of boring 787s but fingers crossed for anything more interesting.

Kno wrote:

It’s probably going to be a bunch of boring 787s but fingers crossed for anything more interesting.

I think you can uncross your fingers then.

United is looking at replacing their 763 fleet and their oldest 772/ERs in their fleet. I think we will see an order for around 60 firm 787s (deliveries starting in 2024) and options for 40 more frames to replace the remainder of the 77E fleet (both sUA and sCO) as they age.

United's 77W fleet is still fairly young I don't see United placing an order just yet for the 77X, I think that order is probably still a good 10-12 years away.

BB78710 wrote:

Kno wrote:

It’s probably going to be a bunch of boring 787s but fingers crossed for anything more interesting.

I think you can uncross your fingers then.

United is looking at replacing their 763 fleet and their oldest 772/ERs in their fleet. I think we will see an order for around 60 firm 787s (deliveries starting in 2024) and options for 40 more frames to replace the remainder of the 77E fleet (both sUA and sCO) as they age.

United's 77W fleet is still fairly young I don't see United placing an order just yet for the 77X, I think that order is probably still a good 10-12 years away.

Only about 5 or so of the 77ER's are newer than the last batch of 763's, so I don't quite follow the "as they [777's] age" part.
Also, I would imagine the 764's would be covered by this order.

planecane wrote:

The historic part is probably it will be the largest 787 order ever. I don't know what the previous largest single order was but this will eclipse it by at least one frame.

According to this Wikipedia page, it is All Nippon with 96 787 orders, all variants. So 100 would make it historic all right but I am hoping for 20 777-9's too with 777W trade-ins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... deliveries

Kno wrote:

It’s probably going to be a bunch of boring 787s but fingers crossed for anything more interesting.

Exactly. I don’t know when people starting hating variety. I think it’ll be a sad day when basically every UA widebody flight is on a 787.

Jeremy

Part of the announcement could be that they are planning a rate increase beyond 5 per month once they get the line back up to that speed. A firm order from United of 100+ would put them well over 500 frames likely to be delivered (ASC 606 adjusted).

Assuming they only reach 5 per month at the end of 2023, they could bump it to 7 per month thereafter and that would still be a 6.5 year backlog, without any options by anybody being exercised taking the line to the middle of 2030 without any new orders. It could be pushed to 8 or 9 per month as I would have to guess there will be more orders in the pipeline and getting the line running at higher rates will definitely help improve cash flow.

In addition to size I suspect the announcement might also be the official public launch of the MTOW increase, adding to the “historical”ness.

fun2fly wrote:

VS11 wrote:

So 100 would make it historic all right but I am hoping for 20 777-9's too with 777W trade-ins.

I wrote that Boeing capital could have some role in this transaction and a 77W trade in to re-lease out or convert to freighter is something they've done before. Albeit out of scope, perhaps Boeing approached United about that. Low % however.

Just to remind everyone:
27 x 763's
16 x 764's
74 x 772's

117 Units are in scope to be replaced. That's a lot of capacity for one order w/o muddying it up with 77W's.

While I agree with you overall, there are at least 3 good reasons to be more ambitious. The cost of money i.e. interest rates, is going up so UA being able to lock in rates now is generally better for UA. Also, they might be able to get better pricing out of Boeing for a larger order. Third reason is that they have done the analysis for their route planning so they already have a pretty good sense where things are headed in the foreseeable future - it is also likely they have reached the conclusion not to go bigger than 787-10 and will keep the 77W until retirement without capacity replacement.

SESGDL wrote:

Kno wrote:

It’s probably going to be a bunch of boring 787s but fingers crossed for anything more interesting.

Exactly. I don’t know when people starting hating variety. I think it’ll be a sad day when basically every UA widebody flight is on a 787.

Jeremy

I’ll probably avoid flying them as much as possible. Flying there 788 from EWR-ORD a few months ago was miserable in C. Can’t imagine a long flight on one. Felt cramped and the lack of control over the windows on a mid day flight was horrible.

Fortunately I’m out of BOS and Delta has us well served with a great variety of equipment. Their old 767s and 757s look newer and are vastly more comfortable than the competitions new planes.

Kno wrote:

SESGDL wrote:

Kno wrote:

It’s probably going to be a bunch of boring 787s but fingers crossed for anything more interesting.

Exactly. I don’t know when people starting hating variety. I think it’ll be a sad day when basically every UA widebody flight is on a 787.

Jeremy

I’ll probably avoid flying them as much as possible. Flying there 788 from EWR-ORD a few months ago was miserable in C. Can’t imagine a long flight on one. Felt cramped and the lack of control over the windows on a mid day flight was horrible.

Fortunately I’m out of BOS and Delta has us well served with a great variety of equipment. Their old 767s and 757s look newer and are vastly more comfortable than the competitions new planes.

This is one of the most dramatic things I’ve read in a while, congrats.

If it's an order for 100 787.... it will also mark Boeing fulfilling the 1500 item Accounting Block (I think orders stand at 1480 or so now?), so that the overall program should finally be profitable with the eventual production of these frames. Obvioiusly, it took a few write downs and hard lessons to get to this point, but the program seems to be on track and is now a bright spot in Boeing's product portfolio. The 787 family really seems a perfect fit for the planes UA is looking to replace this time around.

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

If it's an order for 100 787.... it will also mark Boeing fulfilling the 1500 item Accounting Block (I think orders stand at 1480 or so now?), so that the overall program should finally be profitable with the eventual production of these frames. Obvioiusly, it took a few write downs and hard lessons to get to this point, but the program seems to be on track and is now a bright spot in Boeing's product portfolio. The 787 family really seems a perfect fit for the planes UA is looking to replace this time around.

The 1500 accounting block doesn’t cater for the issues from the last couple of years.

MileHFL400 wrote:

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

If it's an order for 100 787.... it will also mark Boeing fulfilling the 1500 item Accounting Block (I think orders stand at 1480 or so now?), so that the overall program should finally be profitable with the eventual production of these frames. Obvioiusly, it took a few write downs and hard lessons to get to this point, but the program seems to be on track and is now a bright spot in Boeing's product portfolio. The 787 family really seems a perfect fit for the planes UA is looking to replace this time around.

The 1500 accounting block doesn’t cater for the issues from the last couple of years.

True, but I thought they took substantial accounting write-offs for that. Either way, this order puts it at nearly 1600 planes... so I still think it puts the overall progam in decent shape. The 787 has been a knock-out sales success... Say what you will, but airlines keep coming back to the trough to order more. If, Team-B has put the worst of problems behind them, then it's calmer seas (profitability) going forward... This UA order will be a means to that end. This is a family that will probably have 2000 sales before they even do their first major refresh (of course it's evolutionary changes have been steady).. When they do a re-engine/nex gen/HGW/Stretch they'll capture even more sales. Who knows, UA might even come back for even more...

VS11 wrote:

planecane wrote:

The historic part is probably it will be the largest 787 order ever. I don't know what the previous largest single order was but this will eclipse it by at least one frame.

According to this Wikipedia page, it is All Nippon with 96 787 orders, all variants. So 100 would make it historic all right but I am hoping for 20 777-9's too with 777W trade-ins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... deliveries

Those 96 weren't a single order.

Looks like this announcement will include the "New Polaris seat"

https://twitter.com/xJonNYC/status/1601 ... wsrc%5Etfw

I am wondering if that UA order for 250 B737MAX10s might play a part in this upcoming wide body deal? This week, yet another defense bill amendment to extend the exemption deadline for incorporating ECIAS in the B737-10 and B737-7 was removed from that bill in committee. So it is looking like 2023 is coming and the 2020 law requiring ECIAS in newly-developed airliners goes fully in force. Given that, Boeing threatened to kill those two sub-types rather than redesign the cockpit to accommodate ECIAS.

It is possible that UA's deposits and progress payments for the MAX10 might be transferred over to the upcoming B787 order. Furthermore, to appease Airbus, I think the open (but long-dormant) A350 order will be converted over to more A321N orders, which can replace the MAX10 fleet. This will leave UA just having to work things out with Rolls Royce for the A350 engines they won't be buying.

BB78710 wrote:

zkojq wrote:

People often make having dual engine sourcing out to be a far bigger deal than it actually is. Each engine type has it's benefits. For the 787, the Trent is better for mid haul routes whilst the GENX is better for longer haul ones. Given the large breadth of fleets that this rumored order is supposedly going to cover (with multiple configurations likely), I'm sure a place could be found for Trents.

In recent years United has introduced a second engine type to their 767-300 fleet and intended to do so to their A32x fleet as well (with the ex Easyjet aircraft). They have had dual engine sourcing for their 777 fleet for years - albeit as a result of the merger rather than by choice.

Given the situation of the PW4000 - an engine having a lengthy grounding despite being 'mature' with 20+ years in service - there's something to be said in terms of risk management for diversifying your engine sourcing. Imagine if in ten years time (once the bulk of this rumored order is delivered) if there's a similar length grounding for the GENX1B - would put United in quite the pickle to put things mildly.

What second engine type did United introduce to their 767-300 fleet? Their entire 767-300 fleet has the same Pratt and Whitney engines including the 3 frames they picked up from Hawaiian.
The Easyjet aircraft they purchased were never entering the fleet United purchased those aircraft specifically for parts to support their existing A320/19 fleet.

United isn't about to introduce a complexity to their 787 fleet by going with RR engines, when they finally do announce this order I 100% believe GE will continue to be the sole provider of engines for United Airlines 787s.

I thought the 764s were GE. I could be wrong.

FLALEFTY wrote:

I am wondering if that UA order for 250 B737MAX10s might play a part in this upcoming wide body deal? This week, yet another defense bill amendment to extend the exemption deadline for incorporating ECIAS in the B737-10 and B737-7 was removed from that bill in committee. So it is looking like 2023 is coming and the 2020 law requiring ECIAS in newly-developed airliners goes fully in force. Given that, Boeing threatened to kill those two sub-types rather than redesign the cockpit to accommodate ECIAS.

It is possible that UA's deposits and progress payments for the MAX10 might be transferred over to the upcoming B787 order. Furthermore, to appease Airbus, I think the open (but long-dormant) A350 order will be converted over to more A321N orders, which can replace the MAX10 fleet. This will leave UA just having to work things out with Rolls Royce for the A350 engines they won't be buying.

Not likely. The extension can be granted in countless other bills or even a standalone bill. It can even be done next year. The extension doesn't have to be granted prior to the initial deadline passing.

VS11 wrote:

Polot wrote:

Previous posts were deleted (I guess because no source?) but so everyone is clear UA/Boeing will have a “historic announcement” on Tuesday 12/13 at CHS with Scott Kirby and Stan Deal (Boeing Commercial CEO).

Source: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-12-08/

I wonder what qualifies as a historic order…100, 150, 200 aircraft?

At United's request, BAE is re-opening the Concorde line!

flight152 wrote:

Kno wrote:

SESGDL wrote:

Exactly. I don’t know when people starting hating variety. I think it’ll be a sad day when basically every UA widebody flight is on a 787.

Jeremy

I’ll probably avoid flying them as much as possible. Flying there 788 from EWR-ORD a few months ago was miserable in C. Can’t imagine a long flight on one. Felt cramped and the lack of control over the windows on a mid day flight was horrible.

Fortunately I’m out of BOS and Delta has us well served with a great variety of equipment. Their old 767s and 757s look newer and are vastly more comfortable than the competitions new planes.

This is one of the most dramatic things I’ve read in a while, congrats.

This is an aviation forum. It should make sense to you that many of us enjoy sharing and discussing strong opinions and preferences on commercial equipment and service.

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

MileHFL400 wrote:

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

If it's an order for 100 787.... it will also mark Boeing fulfilling the 1500 item Accounting Block (I think orders stand at 1480 or so now?), so that the overall program should finally be profitable with the eventual production of these frames. Obvioiusly, it took a few write downs and hard lessons to get to this point, but the program seems to be on track and is now a bright spot in Boeing's product portfolio. The 787 family really seems a perfect fit for the planes UA is looking to replace this time around.

The 1500 accounting block doesn’t cater for the issues from the last couple of years.

True, but I thought they took substantial accounting write-offs for that. Either way, this order puts it at nearly 1600 planes... so I still think it puts the overall progam in decent shape. The 787 has been a knock-out sales success... Say what you will, but airlines keep coming back to the trough to order more. If, Team-B has put the worst of problems behind them, then it's calmer seas (profitability) going forward... This UA order will be a means to that end. This is a family that will probably have 2000 sales before they even do their first major refresh (of course it's evolutionary changes have been steady).. When they do a re-engine/nex gen/HGW/Stretch they'll capture even more sales. Who knows, UA might even come back for even more...

The accounting block is just used to smooth the cost of production over time so earnings are not as lumpy as they would be otherwise. It is not a true reflection if the program is making money yet or not. Because of this averaging every 787 that has been delivered since day 1 has put additional funds onto the bottom line over and above its contribution to the accounting block - probably something like $15-20 Million per frame - or $15-20B over the 1500 frame production block plus parts and service. You would have to know what it cost to develop was to figure out if they are in the black yet. That expense is buried. It is not the $30B that the accounting block deferred production cost peaked at.

The following is the simple math on how the deferred production cost works on the accounting block. I'm making up the numbers to provide an example.

Say an early 787 cost $200Million to build and the 1500th one costs $100million - call it an average of $150 Million x 1,500 = $225 million in total.

Also lets assume a 787 sells for $170 Million. So the first one built adds $50 Million to Deferred Production cost as assumed production cost is $150 Million and $20 Million hits the bottom line on the first frame, and $30 million of cash loss.

The 1,500th frame costs $100 million to build - $50 million comes off the deferred production cost and $20 million gets booked as profit - but also generates $70 million in cash.

The 1,501th frame Costs $100 million to build - the accounting block is done so $70 million is booked as profit and also $70 million in cash.

Ok, this thread is about United 787 soon to be order. Let’s not talk 787 production accounting blocks here. There’s a thread somewhere for that.

tvh wrote:

Could a B787 order replace the 737-10 orders?

Apparently maybe even more MAX orders. https://leehamnews.com/2022/12/09/hotr- ... at-united/

jbs2886 wrote:

tvh wrote:

Could a B787 order replace the 737-10 orders?

Apparently maybe even more MAX orders. https://leehamnews.com/2022/12/09/hotr- ... at-united/

I didn't get that from the article. It's pure speculation, nothing more.

AAPilot48Heavy wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

tvh wrote:

Could a B787 order replace the 737-10 orders?

Apparently maybe even more MAX orders. https://leehamnews.com/2022/12/09/hotr- ... at-united/

I didn't get that from the article. It's pure speculation, nothing more.

Not sure how you don't get that from the article, its clear. I said "maybe" more MAXes. The article states: "Tuesday’s Boeing announcement may include an order for more MAXes." Leeham wouldn't have pulled that completely out of thin air.

The Leeham article includes some interesting speculation about a split engine order on 787s, which would indicate cancellation of the A350s, even if not announced at the same time

AA777223 wrote:

BB78710 wrote:

zkojq wrote:

People often make having dual engine sourcing out to be a far bigger deal than it actually is. Each engine type has it's benefits. For the 787, the Trent is better for mid haul routes whilst the GENX is better for longer haul ones. Given the large breadth of fleets that this rumored order is supposedly going to cover (with multiple configurations likely), I'm sure a place could be found for Trents.

In recent years United has introduced a second engine type to their 767-300 fleet and intended to do so to their A32x fleet as well (with the ex Easyjet aircraft). They have had dual engine sourcing for their 777 fleet for years - albeit as a result of the merger rather than by choice.

Given the situation of the PW4000 - an engine having a lengthy grounding despite being 'mature' with 20+ years in service - there's something to be said in terms of risk management for diversifying your engine sourcing. Imagine if in ten years time (once the bulk of this rumored order is delivered) if there's a similar length grounding for the GENX1B - would put United in quite the pickle to put things mildly.

What second engine type did United introduce to their 767-300 fleet? Their entire 767-300 fleet has the same Pratt and Whitney engines including the 3 frames they picked up from Hawaiian.
The Easyjet aircraft they purchased were never entering the fleet United purchased those aircraft specifically for parts to support their existing A320/19 fleet.

United isn't about to introduce a complexity to their 787 fleet by going with RR engines, when they finally do announce this order I 100% believe GE will continue to be the sole provider of engines for United Airlines 787s.

I thought the 764s were GE. I could be wrong.

The 767-400s do have GE engines but we are not talking about the 764s the originally comment I was responding to specifically stated United introduced a second engine type to their 767-300 fleet which isn't correct. The entire 767-300 fleet has Pratt and Whitney engines, the 764s came into United's fleet as a result of the merger with CO as did the 22 GE engined 77Es.

The Leeham article is interesting:

https://leehamnews.com/2022/12/09/hotr- ... at-united/

Essentially, it's saying that United can exit the A350 order with Airbus with relative ease. However, to smooth things over with RR then United may split the engine selection on the 787 purchase. Sort of makes sense. Let's see what transpires. But Leeham suggests that if it is a split engine order then the A350 is definitely dead at United (as the split engine order would be a tacit indication that United has done a deal with RR to exit the RR commitment on the A350).

As a person who was born in and still lives in South Carolina I am definitely happy with this news. Should be a boon for the entire state.

accentra wrote:

The Leeham article is interesting:

https://leehamnews.com/2022/12/09/hotr- ... at-united/

Essentially, it's saying that United can exit the A350 order with Airbus with relative ease. However, to smooth things over with RR then United may split the engine selection on the 787 purchase. Sort of makes sense. Let's see what transpires. But Leeham suggests that if it is a split engine order then the A350 is definitely dead at United (as the split engine order would be a tacit indication that United has done a deal with RR to exit the RR commitment on the A350).

The A350 is dead at United. Period. The engine contract is not a barrier to cancellation of the order.

Scarebus34 wrote:

accentra wrote:

The Leeham article is interesting:

https://leehamnews.com/2022/12/09/hotr- ... at-united/

Essentially, it's saying that United can exit the A350 order with Airbus with relative ease. However, to smooth things over with RR then United may split the engine selection on the 787 purchase. Sort of makes sense. Let's see what transpires. But Leeham suggests that if it is a split engine order then the A350 is definitely dead at United (as the split engine order would be a tacit indication that United has done a deal with RR to exit the RR commitment on the A350).

The A350 is dead at United. Period. The engine contract is not a barrier to cancellation of the order.

While I don't disagree, if it was such a non-issue, how come it wasn't cancelled already?

The Leeham speculation that some of the 787 order migth be with RR engines is ineteresting, at the very least, if still unlikely.

dmstorm22 wrote:

Scarebus34 wrote:

accentra wrote:

The Leeham article is interesting:

https://leehamnews.com/2022/12/09/hotr- ... at-united/

Essentially, it's saying that United can exit the A350 order with Airbus with relative ease. However, to smooth things over with RR then United may split the engine selection on the 787 purchase. Sort of makes sense. Let's see what transpires. But Leeham suggests that if it is a split engine order then the A350 is definitely dead at United (as the split engine order would be a tacit indication that United has done a deal with RR to exit the RR commitment on the A350).

The A350 is dead at United. Period. The engine contract is not a barrier to cancellation of the order.

While I don't disagree, if it was such a non-issue, how come it wasn't cancelled already?

The Leeham speculation that some of the 787 order migth be with RR engines is ineteresting, at the very least, if still unlikely.

Scott Kirby was on the record (maybe about 12 months ago?) saying that the cancellation penalty for RR was insignificant in comparison to the costs of inducting a new fleet type. He’s pretty much said that they will cancel the existing order and write off the cost. They haven’t done so yet as they haven’t cancelled the A350 order, but that seems like the inevitable next step after this.

Unless RR give a deal that’s too good to turn down, I can’t see United splitting the engine choice. If the cost is as low as Kirby indicated then it doesn’t make sense to duplicate spares etc.

dmstorm22 wrote:

Scarebus34 wrote:

accentra wrote:

The Leeham article is interesting:

https://leehamnews.com/2022/12/09/hotr- ... at-united/

Essentially, it's saying that United can exit the A350 order with Airbus with relative ease. However, to smooth things over with RR then United may split the engine selection on the 787 purchase. Sort of makes sense. Let's see what transpires. But Leeham suggests that if it is a split engine order then the A350 is definitely dead at United (as the split engine order would be a tacit indication that United has done a deal with RR to exit the RR commitment on the A350).

The A350 is dead at United. Period. The engine contract is not a barrier to cancellation of the order.

While I don't disagree, if it was such a non-issue, how come it wasn't cancelled already?

The Leeham speculation that some of the 787 order migth be with RR engines is ineteresting, at the very least, if still unlikely.

By not cancelling it gives United negotiating power with Boeing and GE.

dmstorm22 wrote:

Scarebus34 wrote:

accentra wrote:

The Leeham article is interesting:

https://leehamnews.com/2022/12/09/hotr- ... at-united/

Essentially, it's saying that United can exit the A350 order with Airbus with relative ease. However, to smooth things over with RR then United may split the engine selection on the 787 purchase. Sort of makes sense. Let's see what transpires. But Leeham suggests that if it is a split engine order then the A350 is definitely dead at United (as the split engine order would be a tacit indication that United has done a deal with RR to exit the RR commitment on the A350).

The A350 is dead at United. Period. The engine contract is not a barrier to cancellation of the order.

While I don't disagree, if it was such a non-issue, how come it wasn't cancelled already?

The Leeham speculation that some of the 787 order migth be with RR engines is ineteresting, at the very least, if still unlikely.

It’s called leverage….

NLINK wrote:

dmstorm22 wrote:

Scarebus34 wrote:

The A350 is dead at United. Period. The engine contract is not a barrier to cancellation of the order.

While I don't disagree, if it was such a non-issue, how come it wasn't cancelled already?

The Leeham speculation that some of the 787 order migth be with RR engines is ineteresting, at the very least, if still unlikely.

By not cancelling it gives United negotiating power with Boeing and GE.

True , United has used Airbus and the A350 as a bargainig chip & once the order is placed for the 787 then they can cancel the A350 , now with airbus aircraft only representing less than 10% of united feet it would be interesting to see the relationship between United and Airbus in the coming years...