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jrfspa320
Posts: 921
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:18 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:47 am

evanb wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:
I agree with you on the on board experience. It's remarkable flying regularly on BA in Club Europe, and then flying Qantas domestically in J. From a catering perspective, BA is head and shoulders above QF (with SWISS within Europe in business class even better again). Compare ticket prices though and Qantas is usually three to four times more expensive. I know the market can support the prices, but being cheap with the meals at those prices is a bit of a smack to the face for those travelling up front.


Both BA and LX (and almost all other European legacy carriers sell a Y class seat as J, simply keeping the middle (in a three seater) or neighbouring (in a two seater) seat empty for domestic/European flights. To even compare this to the QF domestic J (an actual short haul J seat) is preposterous, nevermind the lie flat on many trans-continental/Tasman or trunk route flights. And yes, that is what people are paying for, the seat! It entirely explains the pricing! When you book a business class fare and all you get is a blocked off seat next to you, that you may have just gotten by luck in economy anyway, then I would see that as a slap in the face.


So if youre saying seats are the most important thing, then lets compare to the US where seats are broadly the same as in AU. Service is worse than AU but that doesnt matter right? Domestic first in the US is often a token above economy, sometimes less than $100. 4-5 hour sectors in first can often be had for sub $500, try getting that in Australia.
 
evanb
Posts: 1360
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:09 am

jrfspa320 wrote:
So if youre saying seats are the most important thing, then lets compare to the US where seats are broadly the same as in AU. Service is worse than AU but that doesnt matter right? Domestic first in the US is often a token above economy, sometimes less than $100. 4-5 hour sectors in first can often be had for sub $500, try getting that in Australia.


You're responding to an entirely different argument to what I'm making. The OP was trying to compare QF business class to European short haul business class and limiting that comparison only to food when there are dramatic differences in the hard product. The European short haul business class would not be considered business class in any other region, specifically because of this hard product.

In terms of pricing, I think you're exaggerating significantly, but yes, prices are higher in Australia, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of cheese? You'll probably find that economy class is also significantly cheaper in the US than Australia, but that says little about QF or even airlines, and more about the broader economies, labor markets, currencies, interest rates, regulatory environments, etc.
 
jrfspa320
Posts: 921
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:18 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:14 am

ARFFs strike looks to be starting next week!
 
smi0006
Posts: 3208
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:27 am

jrfspa320 wrote:
ARFFs strike looks to be starting next week!


Shouldn’t cause too much of an issue for domestic - I believe domestic operations can use State fire services in lieu, however international and wide body operations may require full ARFF support - could be ugly
 
jrfspa320
Posts: 921
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:18 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:31 am

smi0006 wrote:
jrfspa320 wrote:
ARFFs strike looks to be starting next week!


Shouldn’t cause too much of an issue for domestic - I believe domestic operations can use State fire services in lieu, however international and wide body operations may require full ARFF support - could be ugly


Just depends how much cover the local fire services can provide. Might be a case by case basis.
 
tullamarine
Posts: 3602
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:29 am

The JV with EK in 2013 was hugely innovative and saved their bacon on European routes (potentially a short term measure until they could start getting non-stops into LHR). Up until this point, EK had clearly been a go it alone airline, and the choice to enter a JV at the time was provocative to say the least. While the nature of that relationship has evolved it was rather innovative for the time.

Yes, it was innovative and probably a brilliant defensive strategy as it brought the rampant EK inside the Qantas tent and, as the saying goes, it is better to have enemies inside the tent pi$$ing out than outside the tent pi$$ing in. It did, and continues to provide, QF with the ability to offer a one-stop service into many European ports it would otherwise not service except for a long backtrack from LHR.

Having said that, I do get the impression that the relationship is no longer what it was. Often, the QF website will refuse to offer services on EK via DXB even though they continue to exist and are the faster option which can be very frustrating. Of course, maybe this isn't a conspiracy and just an IT embuggerance.

While I agree that much of the fanfare of Project Sunrise is rather headline grabbing in nature, the use of unusually low density cabins to make it happen was somewhat innovative. It's not like we've seen other airlines attempt to reach Australia non-stop from Europe or the east coast of the US.

The low density cabin is not so much innovative as essential. As well as improving the yields on the route, it is the only way to reduce weight so these planes can make the non-stop journey right out the outer edges of their range reliably, particularly westbound. QF has not been traditionally very innovative with their premium cabins which are pretty much universally acknowledged as not bad but a long way behind industry leading competitors such as SQ or QR. There is the possibility of the new QF F product being very good and supported by the still excellent F lounges in MEL and SYD. Business and Premium Economy look more likely to be evolutions of the current products which are both firmly middle-of-the-pack offerings.

Other airlines are not particularly interested in ULH to Australia because it is not something that is strategic for them at all. Australia is a comparatively small market for US operators who can already reach the 2 key markets non-stop from their west-coast or Texan hubs. European airlines are much more focussed on their trans-Atlantic services than a ULH to Australia that, as of today, only gets them to Perth anyway so it remains a one-stop service to the key AU markets where they will struggle to be competitive against one-stop services via well located hubs in the Middle East or South East Asia.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3613
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:49 am

evanb wrote:
jrfspa320 wrote:
So if youre saying seats are the most important thing, then lets compare to the US where seats are broadly the same as in AU. Service is worse than AU but that doesnt matter right? Domestic first in the US is often a token above economy, sometimes less than $100. 4-5 hour sectors in first can often be had for sub $500, try getting that in Australia.


You're responding to an entirely different argument to what I'm making. The OP was trying to compare QF business class to European short haul business class and limiting that comparison only to food when there are dramatic differences in the hard product. The European short haul business class would not be considered business class in any other region, specifically because of this hard product.

In terms of pricing, I think you're exaggerating significantly, but yes, prices are higher in Australia, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of cheese? You'll probably find that economy class is also significantly cheaper in the US than Australia, but that says little about QF or even airlines, and more about the broader economies, labor markets, currencies, interest rates, regulatory environments, etc.


I'll respond here to references from all and largely agree with what Tullamarine has said:

Innovation - I'm not saying QF under Joyce has not been innovative. What I am saying is that eventually, and we are coming to that point now, a long standing CEO has their way of doing things and stifles it. So while I agree the two brand strategy, the EK JV were all innovative as were a number of other things QF has done, what I am saying now is that Joyce seems to be out of puff and the experience passengers are having with the Airline are beginning to reflect that. QF needs a re-vamp and Joyce is not the person to do it. It needs fresh eyes.

Low Density Cabins - I would argue that Singapore Airlines and their A340-500 operation was the innovator in low density ultra long haul flying. So QF, at this point, is following a fairly well trodden path for low density long haul flying albeit with a different cabin configuration.

European Carriers - I've done quite a few flights this year on LH and LX and had the unfortunate experience of flying LX long haul between Singapore and Zurich. LX long haul business class is rubbish. Cramped and confined seat, average food, inattentive but efficient when they were serving meals flight attendants and pillows / blankets that are sub par. I wouldn't fly them again. Shorthaul inside Europe LX and LH were more than adequate in Business though, as others have said, you're travelling on an economy seat with a spare seat next to you. So the seats aren't comparable to QF. The food on both LX and LH short haul was decent and I would rate the same quality as QF. Overall it's a decent experience but not as nice as QF's domestic shorthaul business.
 
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csturdiv
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:22 am

jrfspa320 wrote:
ARFFs strike looks to be starting next week!


I like how 9 News Sydney used an image of Qantas when they posted to Facebook about this.
 
tullamarine
Posts: 3602
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:25 am

Overall it's a decent experience but not as nice as QF's domestic shorthaul business.

You're right, the product in Europe is very different from what we get in Australia or the US for that matter but, given all the airlines have fallen in line with a similar product, it is obviously what the market is happy to accept. I did do an, admittedly non-technical, price comparison though which does tend to confirm the prices QF is currently charging are expensive in anyone's language. I compared 3 routes of similar distance on the afternoon of December 9 in J class (F in US)

MEL-SYD, QF, $1578
MEL-SYD, VA, $599
LHR-FRA, BA, $623 (GBP348)
SFO-SAN UA, $465 (USD312)
 
LTEN11
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:57 am

tullamarine wrote:
Overall it's a decent experience but not as nice as QF's domestic shorthaul business.

You're right, the product in Europe is very different from what we get in Australia or the US for that matter but, given all the airlines have fallen in line with a similar product, it is obviously what the market is happy to accept. I did do an, admittedly non-technical, price comparison though which does tend to confirm the prices QF is currently charging are expensive in anyone's language. I compared 3 routes of similar distance on the afternoon of December 9 in J class (F in US)

MEL-SYD, QF, $1578
MEL-SYD, VA, $599
LHR-FRA, BA, $623 (GBP348)
SFO-SAN UA, $465 (USD312)


The comparisons are all well and good, the bottom line though is, if QF can charge that amount and still sell the seats, then the market is prepared to pay the price. No one is forcing anyone to buy these seats at those fares. There are other options available which may have equal, better, or worse service, but they are still there as an alternative, but people keep choosing QF. Now, are they biting the hand that feeds them ? They may well be, but until sales start dropping off, don't expect any changes.
 
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ClassicLover
Posts: 5638
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:48 am

evanb wrote:
Both BA and LX (and almost all other European legacy carriers sell a Y class seat as J, simply keeping the middle (in a three seater) or neighbouring (in a two seater) seat empty for domestic/European flights. To even compare this to the QF domestic J (an actual short haul J seat) is preposterous, nevermind the lie flat on many trans-continental/Tasman or trunk route flights. And yes, that is what people are paying for, the seat! It entirely explains the pricing! When you book a business class fare and all you get is a blocked off seat next to you, that you may have just gotten by luck in economy anyway, then I would see that as a slap in the face.


Hardly preposterous to compare the two - business class is business class. European airlines also run their international aircraft on short-haul (Aer Lingus their A321neo LR with lie-flats on DUB-LHR, DUB-CDG and others), IB (MAD-LHR on A330s and A350s), AY (HEL-LHR on A350s) to name but three.

I hear your point on the seat though, but, as people have pointed out, the price premium charged in Australia is extortionate, especially when all it is is the seat. The on board experience (food, drinks in the main) lag far behind in Australia compared to Europe.

tullamarine wrote:
You're right, the product in Europe is very different from what we get in Australia or the US for that matter but, given all the airlines have fallen in line with a similar product, it is obviously what the market is happy to accept. I did do an, admittedly non-technical, price comparison though which does tend to confirm the prices QF is currently charging are expensive in anyone's language. I compared 3 routes of similar distance on the afternoon of December 9 in J class (F in US)

MEL-SYD, QF, $1578
MEL-SYD, VA, $599
LHR-FRA, BA, $623 (GBP348)
SFO-SAN UA, $465 (USD312)


Exactly the point I was making. Qantas business class is -extremely- expensive. The fares you quote above are pretty standard for all of these routes. Qantas is regularly around $1,600 return and the BA pricing is pretty standard for those stage lengths too. Qantas is, as I said originally, always three to four times more expensive. Having flown it, it is absolutely not worth that price, considering the basic on board service that is provided from a catering perspective.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3613
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:17 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
evanb wrote:
Both BA and LX (and almost all other European legacy carriers sell a Y class seat as J, simply keeping the middle (in a three seater) or neighbouring (in a two seater) seat empty for domestic/European flights. To even compare this to the QF domestic J (an actual short haul J seat) is preposterous, nevermind the lie flat on many trans-continental/Tasman or trunk route flights. And yes, that is what people are paying for, the seat! It entirely explains the pricing! When you book a business class fare and all you get is a blocked off seat next to you, that you may have just gotten by luck in economy anyway, then I would see that as a slap in the face.


Hardly preposterous to compare the two - business class is business class. European airlines also run their international aircraft on short-haul (Aer Lingus their A321neo LR with lie-flats on DUB-LHR, DUB-CDG and others), IB (MAD-LHR on A330s and A350s), AY (HEL-LHR on A350s) to name but three.

I hear your point on the seat though, but, as people have pointed out, the price premium charged in Australia is extortionate, especially when all it is is the seat. The on board experience (food, drinks in the main) lag far behind in Australia compared to Europe.

tullamarine wrote:
You're right, the product in Europe is very different from what we get in Australia or the US for that matter but, given all the airlines have fallen in line with a similar product, it is obviously what the market is happy to accept. I did do an, admittedly non-technical, price comparison though which does tend to confirm the prices QF is currently charging are expensive in anyone's language. I compared 3 routes of similar distance on the afternoon of December 9 in J class (F in US)

MEL-SYD, QF, $1578
MEL-SYD, VA, $599
LHR-FRA, BA, $623 (GBP348)
SFO-SAN UA, $465 (USD312)


Exactly the point I was making. Qantas business class is -extremely- expensive. The fares you quote above are pretty standard for all of these routes. Qantas is regularly around $1,600 return and the BA pricing is pretty standard for those stage lengths too. Qantas is, as I said originally, always three to four times more expensive. Having flown it, it is absolutely not worth that price, considering the basic on board service that is provided from a catering perspective.


I disagree. The short haul on board experience in Australia is far superior in Business Class to any of the major European carriers. Australian Lounges are better, food is comparable and the seat is superior. However is it worth the large price discrepancy? No it is not. QF Is charging what it can get away with because no-one else is competing with them.

If you want an example of QF pricing power, I'm going to Taipei in April for a conference. China Airlines in Business class is about $4,400 return. The Qantas codeshare on the exact same China Airlines flight is a smidge over $6,000. Same plane, same service, same everything it's just that 1 is linked to Qantas and one is China Airlines directly. London in March is the same comparing the same apples to apples on Emirates. QF are pricing things at the moment as if Australians don't have a choice but to fly them.
 
tullamarine
Posts: 3602
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:10 pm

If you want an example of QF pricing power, I'm going to Taipei in April for a conference. China Airlines in Business class is about $4,400 return. The Qantas codeshare on the exact same China Airlines flight is a smidge over $6,000. Same plane, same service, same everything it's just that 1 is linked to Qantas and one is China Airlines directly. London in March is the same comparing the same apples to apples on Emirates. QF are pricing things at the moment as if Australians don't have a choice but to fly them.

Yes, that is the power of status credits which may now be a greater driver of decisions at this level than the FF points themselves which, in many respects, are now borderline worthless given it is so hard to actually use them on a flight you actually want to travel on.

My company will try to offer the Qantas option to staff who hold gold status etc but the current ridiculous price differentials has meant that, domestically at least, our staff are now only being directed to VA and, to a lesser extent, ZL.
 
Sydscott
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:57 am

tullamarine wrote:
If you want an example of QF pricing power, I'm going to Taipei in April for a conference. China Airlines in Business class is about $4,400 return. The Qantas codeshare on the exact same China Airlines flight is a smidge over $6,000. Same plane, same service, same everything it's just that 1 is linked to Qantas and one is China Airlines directly. London in March is the same comparing the same apples to apples on Emirates. QF are pricing things at the moment as if Australians don't have a choice but to fly them.

Yes, that is the power of status credits which may now be a greater driver of decisions at this level than the FF points themselves which, in many respects, are now borderline worthless given it is so hard to actually use them on a flight you actually want to travel on.

My company will try to offer the Qantas option to staff who hold gold status etc but the current ridiculous price differentials has meant that, domestically at least, our staff are now only being directed to VA and, to a lesser extent, ZL.


Agree. I'm 600 status credits away from Lifetime Gold and I'm happy to wait to get it and fly other airlines due to the price. It's not worth getting ripped off just to get Status credits.
 
NTLDaz
Posts: 665
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:56 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:02 am

Hey all. Does anyone know what the story is with the Nauru Airlines flight which just left the BNE domestic terminal headed to Port Headland ?
 
LTEN11
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:38 am

NTLDaz wrote:
Hey all. Does anyone know what the story is with the Nauru Airlines flight which just left the BNE domestic terminal headed to Port Headland ?


Most likely a government charter, they do quite a few.

Also, nit picking, but it's Port Hedland.
 
NTLDaz
Posts: 665
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:56 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:54 am

LTEN11 wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
Hey all. Does anyone know what the story is with the Nauru Airlines flight which just left the BNE domestic terminal headed to Port Headland ?


Most likely a government charter, they do quite a few.

Also, nit picking, but it's Port Hedland.


Thanks.

Also, nitpicking but it is nitpicking not nit picking. Just joking.
 
anstar
Posts: 3503
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:16 am

Sydscott wrote:

Innovation - I'm not saying QF under Joyce has not been innovative. What I am saying is that eventually, and we are coming to that point now, a long standing CEO has their way of doing things and stifles it. So while I agree the two brand strategy, the EK JV were all innovative as were a number of other things QF has done, what I am saying now is that Joyce seems to be out of puff and the experience passengers are having with the Airline are beginning to reflect that. QF needs a re-vamp and Joyce is not the person to do it. It needs fresh eyes..


I believe the 2 airline strategy was even before Joyce when Dixon was in charge.

Talking about the EK JV being innovative... I think when QF and BA under Dixon were looking at a merger - the partnership with EK was the counter to that and the end of the JV with BA. Moving forward they really need to sort out their relationships within the alliance... they have done it to an extent with CX, but they now need to do it with QR.

In saying that wasn't their ME partner EY, then it switched to the EK JV and EY jumped ship to VA and during that time QR joined oneworld and now VA has a closer relation ship with QR than QF #complicated
 
tullamarine
Posts: 3602
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:59 am

anstar wrote:
Sydscott wrote:

Innovation - I'm not saying QF under Joyce has not been innovative. What I am saying is that eventually, and we are coming to that point now, a long standing CEO has their way of doing things and stifles it. So while I agree the two brand strategy, the EK JV were all innovative as were a number of other things QF has done, what I am saying now is that Joyce seems to be out of puff and the experience passengers are having with the Airline are beginning to reflect that. QF needs a re-vamp and Joyce is not the person to do it. It needs fresh eyes..


I believe the 2 airline strategy was even before Joyce when Dixon was in charge.

Talking about the EK JV being innovative... I think when QF and BA under Dixon were looking at a merger - the partnership with EK was the counter to that and the end of the JV with BA. Moving forward they really need to sort out their relationships within the alliance... they have done it to an extent with CX, but they now need to do it with QR.

In saying that wasn't their ME partner EY, then it switched to the EK JV and EY jumped ship to VA and during that time QR joined oneworld and now VA has a closer relation ship with QR than QF #complicated

I don't believe EY and QF ever had any formal partnership. Prior to the EK JV, AJ spent a lot of time being highly critical of all ME3 often referring to their high level of unfair government support.
 
LTEN11
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:17 am

NTLDaz wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
Hey all. Does anyone know what the story is with the Nauru Airlines flight which just left the BNE domestic terminal headed to Port Headland ?


Most likely a government charter, they do quite a few.

Also, nit picking, but it's Port Hedland.


Thanks.

Also, nitpicking but it is nitpicking not nit picking. Just joking.


Ahhhh damn it :D
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 9473
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:36 am

anstar wrote:
Moving forward they really need to sort out their relationships within the alliance... they have done it to an extent with CX, but they now need to do it with QR.

In saying that wasn't their ME partner EY, then it switched to the EK JV and EY jumped ship to VA and during that time QR joined oneworld and now VA has a closer relation ship with QR than QF #complicated


Why do they “really need” to sort things out with Qatar? The alliance model is fairly anachronistic, and many different airlines - not just Qantas - are pursuing bilateral partnerships with airlines outside of their formal alliance groupings. What does Qatar offer that Emirates doesn’t? Sure, Doha is an easier airport to connect at, and their Business Class is arguably the best in the world while Emirates Business Class is fairly underwhelming apart from the A380 bar, but Qatar also serve fewer destinations than Emirates, at lower frequency, and generally have a reputation for being difficult to work with (ask Airbus). Qantas have an existing JBA with Emirates, with no compelling need to terminate it.

You are correct that Qantas had an agreement with Etihad before Emirates, but it never progressed beyond a basic codeshare and interline (no FF reciprocity etc) and IIRC QF only codeshared to AUH, not to Europe.
 
a320fan
Posts: 1161
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:51 am

anstar wrote:
Sydscott wrote:

Innovation - I'm not saying QF under Joyce has not been innovative. What I am saying is that eventually, and we are coming to that point now, a long standing CEO has their way of doing things and stifles it. So while I agree the two brand strategy, the EK JV were all innovative as were a number of other things QF has done, what I am saying now is that Joyce seems to be out of puff and the experience passengers are having with the Airline are beginning to reflect that. QF needs a re-vamp and Joyce is not the person to do it. It needs fresh eyes..


I believe the 2 airline strategy was even before Joyce when Dixon was in charge.

Dixon was the CEO when the two airline policy and JQ was established, However many regard Joyce as the man behind the movement that did a lot of the work in outlining the business plan and setting up JQ and was the Jetstar CEO for their first 4 years of operation.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:29 pm

Please continue to post your news and your discussion here:

Australian Aviation Thread - December 2022

Thread will be locked.
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