Boof02671 wrote:

A strike isn’t happening anytime soon. I don’t understand why l people don’t understand the process.

For one the NMB hasn’t declared an impasse nor are they in a 30 day cooling off period.

Let me post this chart once again so people can understand the process.

Yes, I think the media tends to try and get people all worked up for a story. If they hadn't reached a tentative agreement, it would have taken 6 months to a year before any potential strike would happen. The only time I would get nervous is when a mediator is brought to the negotiating table.

Just happy to see they reached a tentative agreement. I am confident the pilots will ratify this. It's not bad at all.

This TA looks great and it will be great for industry pattern bargaining. Thank goodness, the United TA failed badly…

Congratulations to Delta's pilots! Keep pushing Delta to be a better airline and upgrade the long haul fleet so you can fly more metal.

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

Why would consider a mutually agreed upon contract a joke? Why is it “too high”?

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

You think this is a joke? Just wait until the pilots vote this down because it's still apparently not enough.

KCaviator wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

You think this is a joke? Just wait until the pilots vote this down because it's still apparently not enough.

That is what I am hearing as well; rank and file pilots don't think the raises are enough.

usflyer msp wrote:

KCaviator wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

You think this is a joke? Just wait until the pilots vote this down because it's still apparently not enough.

That is what I am hearing as well; rank and file pilots don't think the raises are enough.

It’s close….but not enough.

From CNBC -
"The “agreement-in-principle” Delta reached with the Air Line Pilots Association is equal to $7.2 billion in cumulative value over four years, the union told members in an email late Friday. About a quarter of that is tied to quality-of-life improvements.

The agreement includes an 18% increase on the day the contract is signed, then a 5% increase one year later and two 4% raises in each of the following years. It also includes a one-time payment of 4% of 2020 and 2021 pay each, plus 14% of 2022 pay."

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/03/delta-p ... -deal.html

okie73 wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

KCaviator wrote:

You think this is a joke? Just wait until the pilots vote this down because it's still apparently not enough.

That is what I am hearing as well; rank and file pilots don't think the raises are enough.

It’s close….but not enough.

Bet the AS drivers are hoping it nudges up more… their deal is tied to the majors narrow body pay. I’m long since retired, but when you hold the advantage, as pilots now do, you can’t leave much on the table. If you don’t get your dough now, there is no guarantee it’ll be there at the next amendable date. I’m squarely with the pilots on this.

F9Animal wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

A strike isn’t happening anytime soon. I don’t understand why l people don’t understand the process.

For one the NMB hasn’t declared an impasse nor are they in a 30 day cooling off period.

Let me post this chart once again so people can understand the process.

Yes, I think the media tends to try and get people all worked up for a story. If they hadn't reached a tentative agreement, it would have taken 6 months to a year before any potential strike would happen. The only time I would get nervous is when a mediator is brought to the negotiating table.

Just happy to see they reached a tentative agreement. I am confident the pilots will ratify this. It's not bad at all.

A mediator had been brought to the table. Been there since January 2020, then again at the beginning of this year after the the government lifted their internal COVID in-person meeting restrictions.

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

You do realize that this contract isn’t even close to as big as contracts signed in the past? We still as an industry haven’t made it back to pre 9/11 pay and work rules.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

Why would consider a mutually agreed upon contract a joke? Why is it “too high”?

The words I use to explain this never get much understanding on here.

Airline pilots, especially with the 1500 rule, have a ton of leverage. If airlines have money in their treasury, pilots have the power to take that money. This is why I don't invest in airlines. It's also why I don't work in airline management.

That money belongs to the shareholders in most industries, even software. But airlines are dominated by pilots these days, which are effectively run for their benefit. It is what it is. This is the structure of the airline industry. Pilots have stronger leverage than even the Board of Directors. The real leader of the airlines, above the Chairman of the Board, is the chairman of the pilot's union.

So, I wouldn't call this mutual agreement, it is just full domination by pilots.

CriticalPoint wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

You do realize that this contract isn’t even close to as big as contracts signed in the past? We still as an industry haven’t made it back to pre 9/11 pay and work rules.

Pre-9/11 pay and work rules were completely unsustainable. I guess bankruptcy didn't count as a lesson?

LCDFlight wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

Why would consider a mutually agreed upon contract a joke? Why is it “too high”?

The words I use to explain this never get much understanding on here.

Airline pilots, especially with the 1500 rule, have a ton of leverage. If airlines have money in their treasury, pilots have the power to take that money. This is why I don't invest in airlines. It's also why I don't work in airline management.

That money belongs to the shareholders in most industries, even software. But airlines are dominated by pilots these days, which are effectively run for their benefit. It is what it is. This is the structure of the airline industry. Pilots have stronger leverage than even the Board of Directors. The real leader of the airlines, above the Chairman of the Board, is the chairman of the pilot's union.

So, I wouldn't call this mutual agreement, it is just full domination by pilots.

CriticalPoint wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

You do realize that this contract isn’t even close to as big as contracts signed in the past? We still as an industry haven’t made it back to pre 9/11 pay and work rules.

Pre-9/11 pay and work rules were completely unsustainable. I guess bankruptcy didn't count as a lesson?

So what is a pilots value?

Take into account a medical every 6 months and the fact that we need to be perfectly healthy because they aren’t any medications we can take approved by the FAA. We can’t even disscuss mental health.

We must be tested every 9 months to ensure we can continue to operate safely and have no cognitive issues.

We have no seniority within the industry so if our airline fails we start over on year 1 pay at the bottom of the list.

Also keep in mind while we get paid several hundred dollars an hour that is only when the door is closed. Take that number and divide it by the total time we are away from home and we don’t get paid that much.

I retired a 787 Captain and retired in a nice house in a nice neighborhood and I am far from having the most money in my neighborhood. The entire time I was working I was average in terms of yearly earnings.

You don’t seem to understand how our pay works.

LCDFlight wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

Why would consider a mutually agreed upon contract a joke? Why is it “too high”?

The words I use to explain this never get much understanding on here.

Airline pilots, especially with the 1500 rule, have a ton of leverage. If airlines have money in their treasury, pilots have the power to take that money. This is why I don't invest in airlines. It's also why I don't work in airline management.

That money belongs to the shareholders in most industries, even software. But airlines are dominated by pilots these days, which are effectively run for their benefit. It is what it is. This is the structure of the airline industry. Pilots have stronger leverage than even the Board of Directors. The real leader of the airlines, above the Chairman of the Board, is the chairman of the pilot's union.

So, I wouldn't call this mutual agreement, it is just full domination by pilots.

CriticalPoint wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

You do realize that this contract isn’t even close to as big as contracts signed in the past? We still as an industry haven’t made it back to pre 9/11 pay and work rules.

Pre-9/11 pay and work rules were completely unsustainable. I guess bankruptcy didn't count as a lesson?

First, it’s an ATP rule, part of which requires 1500 hours for some pilots. That rule has zero effect on negotiations, as no major is hiring those pilots and never will need to do so. The ATP is a red herring.

Second, you miss the decades, decades it was, where airline management had the whip hand on labor—tens of thousands of pilots competing for hundreds of jobs. No regionals, few decent paying GA jobs, no opportunities for civilian guys. I was a pilot in those years, I was on the MEC of gone and forgotten carrier that was the first or second largest in the world. Gone! I retired at my own decision, a good friend does so in a month; both of us look back at our careers happily remembering friends who never had the chance to experience the chance.

So, today pilots in general, ALPA-represented ones in particular, have a temporary whip hand. Good! The group of corporate guys I worked with just got a 25% raise. Others are seeing similar or more money. Regionals are paying signing bonuses, great.

DocLightning wrote:

I think it would behoove the pilots to remember that their row is with the airline and not with the flying public. So if they want to have general public support then they should wait until after the holidays to begin any industrial action.

alasizon wrote:

Personally, I think the best time for the pilots to go on strike would be December 26th. People at least get to their holidays with family and at that point in the booking window you are less likely to effect Spring Break travelers than you are if you wait till January. Any earlier in December (the presumably earliest it could start based on cooling off periods) and you effect holiday travel heading to family which leaves a much more sour taste and bad memory is passengers' minds.

Man, what an incredible shame it would be to lose strong public support like the above.

CriticalPoint wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

You do realize that this contract isn’t even close to as big as contracts signed in the past? We still as an industry haven’t made it back to pre 9/11 pay and work rules.

I know the contract isn't all that Delta pilots wanted, and I fully support Delta pilots decision to reject this offer if they so choose.

I'm wondering were any improvements made when it comes to vacation? I was a bit shocked to see just how far Delta pilots lag behind United pilots in total vacation accrual at the top end of the scale.

Also does this new proposal have any language in it that improves/strengthens scope for Delta pilots especially as it pertains to long haul flights by increasing the number of flights on Delta metal while reducing Delta's dependance on their JV partners for long haul flights?

Wonder what the other workers at DL (and the other carriers) will want in terms of compensation.

Airlines are unique in the disparity of wages between Union members. When I worked for an oil company, everyone represented by a Union was well paid. From refinery laborer to the highest level unit operator. UAW is the same . Not so in the airline industry.

Of course, not many DL employees are unionized. That may change because of this if DL doesn't raise everyones pay alot.

Well the headline is a bit disingenuous. The pay raise is actual over 7 years, not 4. Pilot's didn't receive raises in 2020 (one could argue no airline employee should've during covid) nothing for 2021, nothing for 2022 and now this initial raise of 18% at DOS, 5% DOS +2, 4% DOS +3 and the last year of 4% at DOS +4. In reality, this pay raise covers 7 years, (6 years if you skip 2020 covid year. The media always misses the fine print. 34% pay raise over 7 years is really 4.5% per year. Not as earth shattering as reported. Regional airlines received at least 2 times higher pay increases.

The company wants to pay a bonus instead of retroactive pay rates back to when the contact should've been agreed to in 2020. Management drug their feet when negotiations started back in March of 2019. Since that time inflation has reached almost 18%, which begs the question, did I really receive a raise or just offset of inflation?

There are all kinds of issues that will likely pop-up when we see the full language and not just the highlights meant to show the media and public that these Pilots are "over compensated".

As to other employee groups everyone else at Delta has had 2 separate raises since the pilots had a raise. The Pilots are 2 to 3 years behind due to the stranglehold known as the Railsay Labor Act.

People assert there's a pilot shortage due to the investment in training and flight hours to become a pilot. That's certainly not true of FAs or gate agents. Years ago, AA got FAA approval for a 10-day FA training program.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... fa82d4bbcd

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Wonder what the other workers at DL (and the other carriers) will want in terms of compensation.

Airlines are unique in the disparity of wages between Union members. When I worked for an oil company, everyone represented by a Union was well paid. From refinery laborer to the highest level unit operator. UAW is the same . Not so in the airline industry.

Of course, not many DL employees are unionized. That may change because of this if DL doesn't raise everyones pay alot.

I’m positive that the Sun will rise tomorrow and DL’s management have costed out what the pay will need to be across the board when the ALPA agreement is signed. They’ve been thru this rodeo innumerable times.

More to point, inflation is about future expectations, not last month’s report. ALPA and DL are anticipating long-term inflation.

Pilots are a highly skilled and highly trained work group. Years of college, the military and the hard work building hours and ratings go into becoming an airline pilot. As such they deserve the high compensation they get. I give thanks to my wonderful Delta pilots every time I fly (exclusive). Delta pilots have supported the company over the years and have pushed to make delta a better airline along the way.

LCDFlight wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

Why would consider a mutually agreed upon contract a joke? Why is it “too high”?

The words I use to explain this never get much understanding on here.

Airline pilots, especially with the 1500 rule, have a ton of leverage. If airlines have money in their treasury, pilots have the power to take that money. This is why I don't invest in airlines. It's also why I don't work in airline management.

That money belongs to the shareholders in most industries, even software. But airlines are dominated by pilots these days, which are effectively run for their benefit. It is what it is. This is the structure of the airline industry. Pilots have stronger leverage than even the Board of Directors. The real leader of the airlines, above the Chairman of the Board, is the chairman of the pilot's union.

So, I wouldn't call this mutual agreement, it is just full domination by pilots.

CriticalPoint wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Sizzling pay. Too high and kind of a joke, imo.

You do realize that this contract isn’t even close to as big as contracts signed in the past? We still as an industry haven’t made it back to pre 9/11 pay and work rules.

Pre-9/11 pay and work rules were completely unsustainable. I guess bankruptcy didn't count as a lesson?

Executives at most companies are way over paid and the ones that pour money into stock buybacks instead of R&D or paying the employees a fair wages are only in it for themselves. The stock buy backs are only good long term for those executives. Most public companies now have long term vision and can't look past the next quarter.

CriticalPoint wrote:

We have no seniority within the industry so if our airline fails we start over on year 1 pay at the bottom of the list.

That feature comes from past union demands, and not something forced on the unions by airline management. All unions protect the seniority of their members.

NLINK wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Why would consider a mutually agreed upon contract a joke? Why is it “too high”?

The words I use to explain this never get much understanding on here.

Airline pilots, especially with the 1500 rule, have a ton of leverage. If airlines have money in their treasury, pilots have the power to take that money. This is why I don't invest in airlines. It's also why I don't work in airline management.

That money belongs to the shareholders in most industries, even software. But airlines are dominated by pilots these days, which are effectively run for their benefit. It is what it is. This is the structure of the airline industry. Pilots have stronger leverage than even the Board of Directors. The real leader of the airlines, above the Chairman of the Board, is the chairman of the pilot's union.

So, I wouldn't call this mutual agreement, it is just full domination by pilots.

CriticalPoint wrote:

You do realize that this contract isn’t even close to as big as contracts signed in the past? We still as an industry haven’t made it back to pre 9/11 pay and work rules.

Pre-9/11 pay and work rules were completely unsustainable. I guess bankruptcy didn't count as a lesson?

Executives at most companies are way over paid and the ones that pour money into stock buybacks instead of R&D or paying the employees a fair wages are only in it for themselves. The stock buy backs are only good long term for those executives. Most public companies now have long term vision and can't look past the next quarter.

Good long term for executives… and you know…shareholders… the people who supposedly own the company. It’s their money. Unless…. Somebody gets it first. This is all in good fun though. As I hope I said at the outset, I respect pilots skills and also airline management skills too. Everybody is doing their best and making use of the leverage they have.

It would be nice to see new entrants challenge the legacies again soon. The yields must be pretty incredible out there.

DeltaMD90 wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

USAirKid wrote:

They can't strike, but they can start working to rule, and throwing some wrenches (or even dutch shoes) into the system. There is some question as to how legal that is. AFAIK US Airways sued their pilot's union over this, and I think the individual pilots can of course work to rule, but the union can't encourage them to work to rule. (As I recall the phrase the union used over and over again was "Be good union pilots.")

And working to rule has made the airlines sue the union and the airline have been successful in getting injunctions.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/08/12/ame ... anics.html

Illegal work actions are illegal (shocking, I know) but also suable, as you mentioned. What is impossible to sue against is pilots becoming apathetic and not going the extra mile... even becoming cynical. This rot can unfortunately drag the airline down quite a bit. Maybe not enough to tip the scales at the negotiating table, but a smart management team will keep its employees (including pilots) happy.

A pilot group voting 99% to strike is not happy. You would think Delta's management would try a little harder. Buck stops with the CEO... a CEO driving a 99% strike vote while making very healthy profits is not doing a good job.

delt can't sue anybody for working according to their contract! They may not like it? But they also signed said contract!

dennypayne wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Stock buybacks are the Board’s recognition they have cash greater than needed to find operations and no investments with ROI greater than the business currently earns, so give that cash back to the owners to find better investments. Pretty simple economics

There’s ROI in paying pilots and other employees well, but since it’s an “intangible” and doesn’t show up on the bean counters spreadsheets, it gets ignored when it shouldn’t. Thankfully I work for a company (not in the airline industry) that understands this.

It shouldn’t take pilots threatening to walk off the job before the company does the right thing by their employees.

Business, like engineering, is done with data. No data and it’s just an opinion.

LCDFlight wrote:

Pre-9/11 pay and work rules were completely unsustainable. I guess bankruptcy didn't count as a lesson?

Yes, because pilot contracts single handily caused the bankruptcy of several major airlines. Had aboslutely nothing to do with the pre-9/11 recession and the dramatic drop off in traffic post 9/11. Nothing at all...

Those of you thinking about if/when pilots will go on strike.. do some reading on the Railway Labor Act which airline workers fall under. Airline employees can't just strike whenever they want... there is a long drawn out process that has to be followed and in present time won't ever happen. See the most recent strike attempt by the actual rail workers... congress imposed contract and they couldn't even get paid sick leave out of the deal.

The last airline strike to happen in the US was Spirit in 2010.... will likely be the last for a very long time to come.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

dennypayne wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Stock buybacks are the Board’s recognition they have cash greater than needed to find operations and no investments with ROI greater than the business currently earns, so give that cash back to the owners to find better investments. Pretty simple economics

There’s ROI in paying pilots and other employees well, but since it’s an “intangible” and doesn’t show up on the bean counters spreadsheets, it gets ignored when it shouldn’t. Thankfully I work for a company (not in the airline industry) that understands this.

It shouldn’t take pilots threatening to walk off the job before the company does the right thing by their employees.

Business, like engineering, is done with data. No data and it’s just an opinion.

Unlike engineering, business doesn't *have* to be done that way. Physics is inflexible. People aren't.

Plus, data does show that businesses that take care of their employees do better in the market overall than those who don't. Just because a lot of businesses fail to take that data into account doesn't mean the data doesn't exist.

https://enterpriseengagement.org/pdf/em ... _study.pdf

https://www.purdue.edu/uns/html4ever/20 ... y.sat.html

On topic: my stepdad was hired by Delta in 1978 - there was a time when Delta also understood this. Hopefully they can rediscover this element soon.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Wonder what the other workers at DL (and the other carriers) will want in terms of compensation.

18% is a good starting point.

Well there is one stake holder in Delta that will soon be looking for it's raise - the shareholders. Delta has not paid a dividend since since March 2020. Five years ago the price of Delta's stock was$53.46. Today it is $35.80. And that price gives it a PE of 314. (FedEx's PE is 13.0 and it pays a 2.66% dividend - which one is going to make more money in the future?)

The stock is actually up today. Go figure.

Company sees an unusual number of sick calls, late departures, increased faults in the maintenance; Company goes to court with the historical record and current data, they win. APA was fined $45 million for their illegal action.

dennypayne wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

dennypayne wrote:

There’s ROI in paying pilots and other employees well, but since it’s an “intangible” and doesn’t show up on the bean counters spreadsheets, it gets ignored when it shouldn’t. Thankfully I work for a company (not in the airline industry) that understands this.

It shouldn’t take pilots threatening to walk off the job before the company does the right thing by their employees.

Business, like engineering, is done with data. No data and it’s just an opinion.

Unlike engineering, business doesn't *have* to be done that way. Physics is inflexible. People aren't.

Plus, data does show that businesses that take care of their employees do better in the market overall than those who don't. Just because a lot of businesses fail to take that data into account doesn't mean the data doesn't exist.

https://enterpriseengagement.org/pdf/em ... _study.pdf

https://www.purdue.edu/uns/html4ever/20 ... y.sat.html

On topic: my stepdad was hired by Delta in 1978 - there was a time when Delta also understood this. Hopefully they can rediscover this element soon.

I’m not disagreeing with the report you linked; I’m just saying that’s not often how it works. Yes, many, most, businesses are run by financial data—cut costs, increase revenue and show in PPT slides and reports how it went. Particularly in organizations where employee work is very tightly organized, monitored and reviewed. There’s real limits on how an engaged employee in charge of an airliner can “go the extra mile “. In fact, most flight organizations don’t want creative crews—do the job as defined, in accordance with the manuals and the contract.

I was on the infamous EA MEC in 1988-89. I often argued DL pilots gave a better appearance, were happier, had fewer off-work distractions that EA pilots did, hence gave a premium product. The Texas Air boys knew better—it’s numbers, period. In the intervening 34 years, the industry is closer to Frank Lorenzo than C.E. Woolman.

https://www.deltamuseum.org/exhibits/de ... man-quotes

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Company sees an unusual number of sick calls, late departures, increased faults in the maintenance; Company goes to court with the historical record and current data, they win. APA was fined $45 million for their illegal action.

And the fine was never enforced as the pilots have concessions.

That wasn’t enforced says nothing about the authority behind it or that it wasn’t “paid” intermingled in the negotiations.

T/A language has been completed.

MEC to meet and vote on agreement then goes to members for ratification.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmXL9AvWQAM ... name=large

DALPA agrees to send TA to members for vote.

Voting closes March 1.

Executive summary of agreement (pdf)
https://d2r1lrrqctgamh.cloudfront.net/d ... ummary.pdf

TA refernce guide (pdf)
https://d2r1lrrqctgamh.cloudfront.net/d ... 0Guide.pdf