USTraveler wrote:

TYWoolman wrote:

Tragic and really sad. I have to say I am one for a ban on close formation aircraft at airshows. It's not necessary to get the exhilaration aircraft passing by on their own can and will achieve. Looks like the smaller plane just lost site of the B-17, possibly focusing on the other smaller aircraft that flew by first that did seem to maintain adequate distance from the larger craft. These mishaps are memorable. It's why I do not attend. RIP.

I beg to differ with you.

There is the loss of life of the airmen, which is tragic enough on its own.
But don't underestimate the impact on spectators.
I witnessed Ramstein when I was 12, from a safe distance. Wasn't even close to the area where the unspeakable horror occured. Though I did see the 2 crash into the open field and the smoke of the 3rd, well, it was pretty clear what happened there.

That was more than enough to not ever want to go to an airshow again. I turned to civil avaition after that day. Though I did visit and airshow once, some years later. The day before an airshow actually, to do a photography tour. Thought that would be ok because I didn't expect anything doing stunts. But the Russian team decided to do a practice run. At one moment, 4 of them were doing a simple loop in formation and briefly headed in my direction, which pretty much caused a panic attack on my side.
So that was the last time ever I even got close to an air show.

To this day, I can see the film of what happened in Ramstein in my head, second by second. Not traumatized by it (apart from wanting to stay far away from air shows), but anybody will have a hard time to convince me that stunts which can end up in collision (even if only 0,001% chance) are a good idea for an airshow. Show the planes, yes. Show capabilities in solo displays, definitely! Close formations also not really a problem, but planes at airshows should NEVER have paths that can end up in collision.

Seeing what lead to the collision in this incident, if they didn't collide then those fighter pilots should never be allowed to fly again! One won't, the ones in the B17 also won't. And many of the spectators, well, I know how they'll feel 30 years from now.

One of the saddest things I've ever seen. Heart broken.

OMG, what a horrible tragedy. RIP to those lost!

LabQuest wrote:

How many B-17's are left flying these days?

CNN says 9 (now 8) airworthy; 45 surviving complete aircraft.

bennett123 wrote:

Were the B17 and the fighters supposed to be flying in formation.

In the air shows that I have seen that only happens with the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight.

They are a team that includes both a bomber and fighters.

I can't recall seeing his done where the bomber and fighters are not part of the same team.

They are trained RAF pilots, who can do a tour with the BBMF, then go back to operational flying.

Saw this very B17 at the air show at Randolph AFB a few months ago. Beautiful airplane. Heartbroken over this tragedy and suddenly violent loss of life.

I’m not one to speculate, so I’ll leave that for the investigators. And with all due respect to those with differing opinions, I don’t get the logic of banning air shows. By that frame of view, we should stop auto racing and similar events.

God Bless all pilots' souls. Heartbreaking for his family and friends. Oh boy how close call biplane was taxing or taking off when B17 smashed close to them. But Good thing it did not hit on spectators area that reminds me of that in German spectators some were killed many years ago.

Rest in peace.

Q

lajaca wrote:

I’m not one to speculate, so I’ll leave that for the investigators. And with all due respect to those with differing opinions, I don’t get the logic of banning air shows. By that frame of view, we should stop auto racing and similar events.

No need to ban air shows, what needs to be banned is actions which can lead to disaster. In this case, the fighters were doing something that SHOULD be banned. They should have been flying with the same vectors as the other planes.

Stricter regulations can prevent disasters like this. Auto racing also is far more regulated today than it was in the past. Perhaps not enough yet, but a lot of progress has been made.
Regulations can't prevent all incidents, but some thrills just aren't worth the risk involved.

Flying can require a pretty thick skin at times. I’ve lost over a dozen friends, been in a military flying accident, lost another friend there. It goes with the territory. Interestingly, I’ve only lost one close friend in a car accident in 55 years. Witnessed a crash in South African airshow and another Thunderbird crash at Transoo ‘72 at KIAD. Gallows humor is sometimes needed to survive.

Jalap wrote:

lajaca wrote:

I’m not one to speculate, so I’ll leave that for the investigators. And with all due respect to those with differing opinions, I don’t get the logic of banning air shows. By that frame of view, we should stop auto racing and similar events.

No need to ban air shows, what needs to be banned is actions which can lead to disaster. In this case, the fighters were doing something that SHOULD be banned. They should have been flying with the same vectors as the other planes.

Stricter regulations can prevent disasters like this. Auto racing also is far more regulated today than it was in the past. Perhaps not enough yet, but a lot of progress has been made.
Regulations can't prevent all incidents, but some thrills just aren't worth the risk involved.

Having been a participant and worked in the background at air shows in the US, the FAA is closely involved, sets the standards, briefs and approves the crews. This event will be investigated, safety recommendations given, if needed.

USTraveler wrote:

This is highly disturbing. I thought WW2 was over and done... RIP to the B17 crew.

While I do not attribute this to WWII, people are still being killed by unexploded ordinance from WWII. Several have been killed in Germany trying to difuse bombs that turn up.

This is sad all around, but some of the reactions here seem ridiculous . Typical of the one person poops their pants so let's make everyone wear diapers crowd. Give the investigators time and then new regs and procedures can be implemented as needed. This is how much of aviation's safety regs came in to being.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Flying can require a pretty thick skin at times. I’ve lost over a dozen friends, been in a military flying accident, lost another friend there. It goes with the territory. Interestingly, I’ve only lost one close friend in a car accident in 55 years. Witnessed a crash in South African airshow and another Thunderbird crash at Transoo ‘72 at KIAD. Gallows humor is sometimes needed to survive.

Yet you cannot expect all spectators at an air show to have this thick skin. Those are family events.
Seeing the footage of this event, clearly either the regulations aren't strict enough or those fighter pilots weren't disciplined enough. Luckily there'll be an investigations and hopefully recommendations will follow to reduce odds that this will happen again. Same happened after Ramstein, when flying in the direction of the spectators got banned (iirc).
As for dealing with it, yes, gallows humor helps. I truely enjoyed the scene in the movie Lost Highway when Rammstein sings about burning people. Certainly enjoyed it more then all who weren't there. Then again, I'm a thrill and adrenaline lover

Maybe the B17 was in the incorrect location and cut off the 63.

Jalap wrote:

USTraveler wrote:

TYWoolman wrote:

Tragic and really sad. I have to say I am one for a ban on close formation aircraft at airshows. It's not necessary to get the exhilaration aircraft passing by on their own can and will achieve. Looks like the smaller plane just lost site of the B-17, possibly focusing on the other smaller aircraft that flew by first that did seem to maintain adequate distance from the larger craft. These mishaps are memorable. It's why I do not attend. RIP.

I beg to differ with you.

To this day, I can see the film of what happened in Ramstein in my head, second by second. Not traumatized by it (apart from wanting to stay far away from air shows), but anybody will have a hard time to convince me that stunts which can end up in collision (even if only 0,001% chance) are a good idea for an airshow. Show the planes, yes. Show capabilities in solo displays, definitely! Close formations also not really a problem, but planes at airshows should NEVER have paths that can end up in collision.

Agreed! With due respect to the loss of life/families affected obviously with this particular tragedy, it is this kind of tragedy that continues to call into question why such events must make spectators think that a crash may be imminent in order to judge airmanship (it may turn out this particular crash was just a gross misjudgment and not necessarily an intended close fly-by) but more broadly let airmanship be judged by the quality of flying and capabilities of an aircraft within the freedom of air around it. Leave the near crashes even if only from the perspective of the spectators out of the equation all together!! Let's not sell tickets on near death experiences that sometimes result in just that. Maybe a bit over-the-top metaphor, but airshows mustn't be the ancient gladiators of modern times.

Reldiber wrote:

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but for those who saw the video, tell me doesn't the collision look oddly intentional?

No, it doesn't look oddly intentional. It is incredibly easy to lose track of another aircraft in the sky.

sprxUSA wrote:

Maybe the B17 was in the incorrect location and cut off the 63.

If that turns out to be the case, then regulations need to be sharpened so that a plane being in the incorrect location doesn't end up in a collision.
Typing this feels pretty stupid btw, because all collisions are caused by something not being in the correct location. Hence, crossing vectors should be banned, in my opinion. Or at least with more generous spacing.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Flying can require a pretty thick skin at times. I’ve lost over a dozen friends, been in a military flying accident, lost another friend there. It goes with the territory. Interestingly, I’ve only lost one close friend in a car accident in 55 years. Witnessed a crash in South African airshow and another Thunderbird crash at Transoo ‘72 at KIAD. Gallows humor is sometimes needed to survive.

First RIP to the victims and prayers to their families. This was an unfortunate tragedy.

Second, this was a callous post if there ever was one here.I was booked to fly on FiFi at the show tomorrow and am fortunate that I was not there to witness this today. By chance I booked the ticket for Sunday vs. Saturday. This is a family event and with kids present; not easy for them or adults including first responders to witness. I have known people that have died in plane crashes, and that would not have made being witness to the event any easier.

Hello all,
First off, condolences to the crews, their family and friends. Looking at the various videos out there, two planes flew by prior to the accident the same heading. The B-17 flew by on this same heading while the P-63 was on an intercept course with the B-17. All the aircraft were under power with no stuttering, no apparent engine issues. Just before impact with B-17, the P-63 appeared to veer away from the B-17 was in a sharp bank to the left but was too late striking the B-17 at it's port wing root slicing the plane in two. I don't know if there's audio between the crews or from the ground to the crews. The NTSB will fully investigate this but I wonder if there was a medical issue with P-63 pilot? He seemed to be out of position and on the wrong heading...

Boys and Girls can we PLEASE stay on topic?

This threads turning into a complete mess as per usual on here. Let's not throw blame around and let's wait for the investigations to be concluded before we go on about banning all airshows.

May all concerned Rest In Peace.

What are the FAA rules about who can do a display at an airshow? Must all display pilots have an airshow rating?

Jalap wrote:

sprxUSA wrote:

Maybe the B17 was in the incorrect location and cut off the 63.

If that turns out to be the case, then regulations need to be sharpened so that a plane being in the incorrect location doesn't end up in a collision.
Typing this feels pretty stupid btw, because all collisions are caused by something not being in the correct location. Hence, crossing vectors should be banned, in my opinion. Or at least with more generous spacing.

Why didn't either planes TCAS go off and prevent the collision?

This is a horrible tragedy. I hope they can figure out why this happened and maybe bring some sort of further regulation for airshows.

CWL757 wrote:

Boys and Girls can we PLEASE stay on topic?

This threads turning into a complete mess as per usual on here. Let's not throw blame around and let's wait for the investigations to be concluded before we go on about banning all airshows.

May all concerned Rest In Peace.

We are supposed to wait until an investigation is concluded before discussing? Plane as day. Airshows cause lives to be lost needlessly. Nobody is talking about banning airshows. Just ban the intentional close calls for crowd "enjoyment and awe!"

T54A wrote:

What are the FAA rules about who can do a display at an airshow? Must all display pilots have an airshow rating?

In North America, you would have have passed a Aerobatic Competency Evaluation (ACE) program, which administered by the International Council of Air Shows under FAA and Transport Canada regulations. Once passed, you get issued a Statement of Aerobatic Competency by either the FAA or Transport Canada, which spells out what you can fly in an air show, any altitude restrictions, and what you can do in an air show.

The manual is here:

https://www.airshows.aero/GetDoc/3129

CoThG wrote:

Jalap wrote:

sprxUSA wrote:

Maybe the B17 was in the incorrect location and cut off the 63.

If that turns out to be the case, then regulations need to be sharpened so that a plane being in the incorrect location doesn't end up in a collision.
Typing this feels pretty stupid btw, because all collisions are caused by something not being in the correct location. Hence, crossing vectors should be banned, in my opinion. Or at least with more generous spacing.

Why didn't either planes TCAS go off and prevent the collision?

Probably no TCAS on airshow planes. And if there was, it would be going off 100% of the time, because of the close spacing that occurs at airshows.

Possible bird strike with the P-63?

From what I can remember, this particular performance we are seeing is part of a pyrotechnic display. I saw it several years ago at McChord Air base in Washington. This is a reenactment of a battle in WWII. The performance is nowhere near the spectators.

The show I saw was called, "Tora Tora Tora." It was an impressive display, and I suspect this may have been the same type of show. I got to tour that beautiful B-17, and P-63. The crew are so dedicated and love love love what they do. They also offer flights on the B-17 for customers, but they were not doing that at the time of the performance.

I saw a few posts where some think banning air shows should be considered. Well, I disagree. Several changes have been made through the years to make these airshows safer for the public.

My heart is crushed for the loved ones and families of these crews. I will never forget the show I saw these guys perform. It was incredible! One of the most incredible shows of aviation I have seen. I suspect the P-63 never saw the B-17 with the angle he was at.

On a side note, the P-63 is more rare than the B-17. I think I read there are only 4 left.

Anyone hear how many were in the B-17? Assume the flight crew (2 or 3) and someone to handle the pyrotechnics?

For those curious to see how the show is supposed to be. I just learned that the show was indeed called, "Tora Tora Tora." The performance was incredible. Everyone at the show was silent, and in awe when I saw it. The men and women who do these shows are incredible. They give their all to inspire and show the beauty of aviation. Those who perished today died doing what they love. It's the only comfort I can feel right now in my crushed heart. May they rest easy. There are several of these shows that are on YouTube. Like I said, it was incredible.

https://youtu.be/0HPPksRuT44

Perhaps someone can confirm from the show agenda.

Were the B17 and P63 part of the same show item.

mga707 wrote:

Anyone hear how many were in the B-17? Assume the flight crew (2 or 3) and someone to handle the pyrotechnics?

Latest I heard was 5 on the B-17.

bennett123 wrote:

Perhaps someone can confirm from the show agenda.

Were the B17 and P63 part of the same show item.

Yes. I just attached an older video of the show they perform. They had a mix of all kinds of war birds performing.

https://youtu.be/0HPPksRuT44

[quote=“lajaca”]I’m not one to speculate, so I’ll leave that for the investigators. And with all due respect to those with differing opinions, I don’t get the logic of banning air shows. By that frame of view, we should stop auto racing and similar events.
[/quote]
Your analogy to auto racing would hold if you can cite me the last mid-air collision that did not result in fatalities. This was way too close to home for South Dallas populations. Highway 67 nearby was littered by airplane debris.

ThePointblank wrote:

T54A wrote:

What are the FAA rules about who can do a display at an airshow? Must all display pilots have an airshow rating?

In North America, you would have have passed a Aerobatic Competency Evaluation (ACE) program, which administered by the International Council of Air Shows under FAA and Transport Canada regulations. Once passed, you get issued a Statement of Aerobatic Competency by either the FAA or Transport Canada, which spells out what you can fly in an air show, any altitude restrictions, and what you can do in an air show.

The manual is here:

https://www.airshows.aero/GetDoc/3129

Thank you

CWL757 wrote:

Boys and Girls can we PLEASE stay on topic?

This threads turning into a complete mess as per usual on here. Let's not throw blame around and let's wait for the investigations to be concluded before we go on about banning all airshows.

May all concerned Rest In Peace.

IMO, the fact that we can't see any of the other fighters anywhere near the B17 suggests that the P63 was out of position.

The big questions are why it was out of position (if my perception is correct) and what can be done to stop this happening in the future.

Not all the possible factors involve blaming someone.

this was totally unnecessary. Are their protocols with older birds flying in formation? They don't have the same fast dynamics modern planes do but then again I don't know how the P63 pilot missed it. Maybe the color of the B-17 might have blended well from a top-down perspective but still.

ULA340 wrote:

this was totally unnecessary. Are their protocols with older birds flying in formation? They don't have the same fast dynamics modern planes do but then again I don't know how the P63 pilot missed it. Maybe the color of the B-17 might have blended well from a top-down perspective but still.

"fast dynamics modern planes do?"

This is such a sad story to read tonight. These guys were doing what they love for the entertainment of others. Sadly sometimes these things do happen as we all know. I unfortunately witnessed the crash of Spitfire RM689 at Woodford (near MAN) and the P3 Lightening at Duxford. Both solo pilots showing the brilliance of their machines. I'll never forget the Woodford accident as a teenager, and after a long while the Russian MIGs went up to the sound of 'the show must go on' over the speakers. Quite right too. These guys who perished in the B17 and P63 would be devastated to think this would spell the end of shows. We just need to continue to keep crowds safe by flying runway lines and let these amazing aviators show what they can do. Sending my love and condolences to those lost in Dallas. Pete. Manchester UK x

bennett123 wrote:

CWL757 wrote:

Boys and Girls can we PLEASE stay on topic?

This threads turning into a complete mess as per usual on here. Let's not throw blame around and let's wait for the investigations to be concluded before we go on about banning all airshows.

May all concerned Rest In Peace.

IMO, the fact that we can't see any of the other fighters anywhere near the B17 suggests that the P63 was out of position.

The big questions are why it was out of position (if my perception is correct) and what can be done to stop this happening in the future.

Not all the possible factors involve blaming someone.

https://twitter.com/jasonwhitely/status ... VN1XqJN0Ug

This angle offers some visual context. Doesn’t appear at the time there was a tight formation, seems pretty loose.

There are a pair of posters on this thread that are really derailing it with useless, inflammatory posts. Can we stick to the topic?

Silver1SWA wrote:

bennett123 wrote:

CWL757 wrote:

Boys and Girls can we PLEASE stay on topic?

This threads turning into a complete mess as per usual on here. Let's not throw blame around and let's wait for the investigations to be concluded before we go on about banning all airshows.

May all concerned Rest In Peace.

IMO, the fact that we can't see any of the other fighters anywhere near the B17 suggests that the P63 was out of position.

The big questions are why it was out of position (if my perception is correct) and what can be done to stop this happening in the future.

Not all the possible factors involve blaming someone.

https://twitter.com/jasonwhitely/status ... VN1XqJN0Ug

This angle offers some visual context. Doesn’t appear at the time there was a tight formation, seems pretty loose.

Looking at this video, I find it very hard to believe the P63 pilot couldn’t see the B17. There is another factor at play here. Where was he looking and why? For what’s it’s worth, I’ve flown T6’s at airshows doing similar things at to what was going on here.

Tragic

bennett123 wrote:

CWL757 wrote:

Boys and Girls can we PLEASE stay on topic?

This threads turning into a complete mess as per usual on here. Let's not throw blame around and let's wait for the investigations to be concluded before we go on about banning all airshows.

May all concerned Rest In Peace.

IMO, the fact that we can't see any of the other fighters anywhere near the B17 suggests that the P63 was out of position.

The big questions are why it was out of position (if my perception is correct) and what can be done to stop this happening in the future.

Not all the possible factors involve blaming someone.

One of the videos posted up thread very clearly has two fighters flying overhead with P-63 trailing.

Jalap wrote:

lajaca wrote:

I’m not one to speculate, so I’ll leave that for the investigators. And with all due respect to those with differing opinions, I don’t get the logic of banning air shows. By that frame of view, we should stop auto racing and similar events.

No need to ban air shows, what needs to be banned is actions which can lead to disaster. In this case, the fighters were doing something that SHOULD be banned. They should have been flying with the same vectors as the other planes.

Stricter regulations can prevent disasters like this. Auto racing also is far more regulated today than it was in the past. Perhaps not enough yet, but a lot of progress has been made.
Regulations can't prevent all incidents, but some thrills just aren't worth the risk involved.

Actually what is needed is more training in stuff like spatial awareness, follow your lead but don't get tunnel vision & have that as the only thing you're looking at. In other words scan scan scan.

nonrevelite wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Flying can require a pretty thick skin at times. I’ve lost over a dozen friends, been in a military flying accident, lost another friend there. It goes with the territory. Interestingly, I’ve only lost one close friend in a car accident in 55 years. Witnessed a crash in South African airshow and another Thunderbird crash at Transoo ‘72 at KIAD. Gallows humor is sometimes needed to survive.

First RIP to the victims and prayers to their families. This was an unfortunate tragedy.

Second, this was a callous post if there ever was one here.I was booked to fly on FiFi at the show tomorrow and am fortunate that I was not there to witness this today. By chance I booked the ticket for Sunday vs. Saturday. This is a family event and with kids present; not easy for them or adults including first responders to witness. I have known people that have died in plane crashes, and that would not have made being witness to the event any easier.

I’m sorry if you see it as callous, but I’ve witnessed or experienced too many outcomes to not realize not all days end happily. In my fifty years, I’ve learned to accept it and look at these tragedies for what they are and they can’t be wished away.

Such a tragedy. I pray for all of the families of those who perished. While looking through Instagram I came across this video which I had not seen yet. https://www.instagram.com/p/Ck4LEfcvDio ... MyMTA2M2Y=

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

nonrevelite wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Flying can require a pretty thick skin at times. I’ve lost over a dozen friends, been in a military flying accident, lost another friend there. It goes with the territory. Interestingly, I’ve only lost one close friend in a car accident in 55 years. Witnessed a crash in South African airshow and another Thunderbird crash at Transoo ‘72 at KIAD. Gallows humor is sometimes needed to survive.

First RIP to the victims and prayers to their families. This was an unfortunate tragedy.

Second, this was a callous post if there ever was one here.I was booked to fly on FiFi at the show tomorrow and am fortunate that I was not there to witness this today. By chance I booked the ticket for Sunday vs. Saturday. This is a family event and with kids present; not easy for them or adults including first responders to witness. I have known people that have died in plane crashes, and that would not have made being witness to the event any easier.

I’m sorry if you see it as callous, but I’ve witnessed or experienced too many outcomes to not realize not all days end happily. In my fifty years, I’ve learned to accept it and look at these tragedies for what they are and they can’t be wished away.

I also took your take as realist, not callous. There is a naturally horrified perspective from the casual observers who were at the show, but there is also a more reserved, what-can-be-learned-from-this attitude from those who plan and participate in these events.

Any of us who have been lucky to fly for any length of time in any capacity remember the people we met along the way who had a bad day and didn't make it.

Jalap wrote:

USTraveler wrote:

TYWoolman wrote:

Tragic and really sad. I have to say I am one for a ban on close formation aircraft at airshows. It's not necessary to get the exhilaration aircraft passing by on their own can and will achieve. Looks like the smaller plane just lost site of the B-17, possibly focusing on the other smaller aircraft that flew by first that did seem to maintain adequate distance from the larger craft. These mishaps are memorable. It's why I do not attend. RIP.

I beg to differ with you.

There is the loss of life of the airmen, which is tragic enough on its own.
But don't underestimate the impact on spectators.
I witnessed Ramstein when I was 12, from a safe distance. Wasn't even close to the area where the unspeakable horror occured. Though I did see the 2 crash into the open field and the smoke of the 3rd, well, it was pretty clear what happened there.

That was more than enough to not ever want to go to an airshow again. I turned to civil avaition after that day. Though I did visit and airshow once, some years later. The day before an airshow actually, to do a photography tour. Thought that would be ok because I didn't expect anything doing stunts. But the Russian team decided to do a practice run. At one moment, 4 of them were doing a simple loop in formation and briefly headed in my direction, which pretty much caused a panic attack on my side.
So that was the last time ever I even got close to an air show.

To this day, I can see the film of what happened in Ramstein in my head, second by second. Not traumatized by it (apart from wanting to stay far away from air shows), but anybody will have a hard time to convince me that stunts which can end up in collision (even if only 0,001% chance) are a good idea for an airshow. Show the planes, yes. Show capabilities in solo displays, definitely! Close formations also not really a problem, but planes at airshows should NEVER have paths that can end up in collision.

Seeing what lead to the collision in this incident, if they didn't collide then those fighter pilots should never be allowed to fly again! One won't, the ones in the B17 also won't. And many of the spectators, well, I know how they'll feel 30 years from now.

Don’t ever go see the Snowbirds then….
Close formation maneuvers with 8-12 jets was the specialty.

Canuck600 wrote:

Jalap wrote:

lajaca wrote:

I’m not one to speculate, so I’ll leave that for the investigators. And with all due respect to those with differing opinions, I don’t get the logic of banning air shows. By that frame of view, we should stop auto racing and similar events.

No need to ban air shows, what needs to be banned is actions which can lead to disaster. In this case, the fighters were doing something that SHOULD be banned. They should have been flying with the same vectors as the other planes.

Stricter regulations can prevent disasters like this. Auto racing also is far more regulated today than it was in the past. Perhaps not enough yet, but a lot of progress has been made.
Regulations can't prevent all incidents, but some thrills just aren't worth the risk involved.

Actually what is needed is more training in stuff like spatial awareness, follow your lead but don't get tunnel vision & have that as the only thing you're looking at. In other words scan scan scan.

I have no idea what the plan was here, but based on other shows I have been involved in, everyone generally has a box or a lane they are supposed to stay within. This is all briefed before the show, and often practiced beforehand.

I would guess that bird 3, the P-63, broke late and was tunnel focused on rejoining bird 2, losing sit awareness of where he was at in relationship to the ground. The videos make it clear that he was wide in the turn compared two the two other fighters. He likely strayed into the B-17’s lane, never even seeing it.

lajaca wrote:

Saw this very B17 at the air show at Randolph AFB a few months ago. Beautiful airplane. Heartbroken over this tragedy and suddenly violent loss of life.

I’m not one to speculate, so I’ll leave that for the investigators. And with all due respect to those with differing opinions, I don’t get the logic of banning air shows. By that frame of view, we should stop auto racing and similar events.

I firmly believe that these spectacular aircraft belong in the air, not in a museum. I have great respect for the people who put huge amounts of their own money in to be temporary caretakers of these things for a couple of decades. People like Paul Allen, Jack Roush, Kermit Weeks, Bob Collings, the folks of the CAF, and thousands of others.

The effect on that dreaming kid is far different seeing the airplane their long passed great grandfather flew thundering across the sky, than gathering dust in a hangar museum somewhere.

CoThG wrote:

Another reason to outlaw warbird flying. Weekend warriors who think they are real fighter pilots. They have the money but not the skill.

All three pilots were US airline captains. Pretty real pilots.