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Jomar777
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:59 am

Bongodog1964 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
From my side (some might have already been mentioned but it might be useful as a summarize):

1) Stand-by Tickets: soo normal in US but it is very rare in Europe. I just saw one case last month when travelling with ITA - saw a group with standby tickets at check-in desk being given instructions (nothing bad). I might be a bit dumb but I do not get the reason to sell those to ordinary people other than airline employees;
2) Customer Services: You might have 24/7 in Europe but they take ages to pick up the phone, are sometimes rude, level of English is not great and they will struggle to offer solutions. I once flew UA from LHR to GRU and had an issue with my LHR Flight to ORD. UA's European Customer service was hopeless and wanted me to go a day later. Rang UA's US Customer Service and 15 minutes down the call, I've had a better connection with AC and a Canadian VISA to boot. AND the advisor even offered me an AA ticket if I did not like my AC connection;
3) Local Connections: Maybe because of the size of the countries, you never need to pick up your luggage and re-connect when arriving in a Country in Europe. Some years ago, flew LHR to LED via SVO and my luggage went straight through. All the time I had to connect in the US, I needed to allow extra time in conneciton to clear customs and pick up my luggage and re-check it again.
4) Airport Experience: In Europe, you seem to pass security and land straight in a Shopping Centre . You might as well go to the airport only with your Passport and buy your clothes, luggage, accessories all there (for a price, of course). In US, mostly a couple of cafeterias and bars. So, Europe = you might be too busy and forget your flight. In US = you might be too bored and sleep through the flight calls
5) Cabin Crew: With the exception of Air France. European Cabin Crew are way too uptight and mechanically efficient. They tend to demand simpathy and appreciation from the passengers but give very little in return. Also, Common Sense seems to always be missing. The only way to avoid this, is if you speak the Airline Language (German for Lufthansa, Spanish for Iberia, etc.). Personally, KLM you wonder if their dutch airhostess sometimes have an extra "metal accessory" on their shoes - you wouldn't like to bein the wrong side of an argument with them. US Cabin Crew (at least all the ones I had on my flights) seem more relaxed and accommodating. You flash a smile and are not a troublesome passenger, you will have a great flight. Same applies for AC.
6) Food: European varies from inexistent (short flights. Reasonable since most of passengers arrive early and are too shop ladden and have stopped at one of the airport fares anyway) to quite gourmet. Whatever you get. it seems quite tasty. US: I've once got a pizza slice on AA which nearly burn a hole through my stomach. I have not been catered decently on a US airline flight in any of my journeys (AA, DL and UA).
7) Immigration: US: if you have the right documents, ESTA, etc. is straight forward with maybe you leaving your digitals with the officer which will tend to be a quite or sociable (never rude) one. In EU, loads of electronic gates that seem to work for nobody or are way too slow and not enough officers to see you if you cannot use/had trouble with the e-gates. Tend to be agreeable but too patronizing.
8) Airport Staff: US = customer services mind personnel that when stroppy and unhelpful you clearly see that it is an exception and can be complained about. EU (UK mainly) = they do not give a **** about you and will heard you like cattle when needed. Seem not to care about passengers and see as if they are doing a favour for just bing there.
9) Luggage Pick up - EU: It does not matter if your luggage is security tagged or not. It will come when they come in the middle of the others. IF they come in some cases. Might take a while. US: So far, luggage tends to come quicker and, if priority tagged they WILL come first.
10) Luggage Security: EU - You might as well use the many shrinkage companies at the airport and use a padlock that will not open for their dear life. US: You may very likely lose money on the shrink or on padlocks as such. Your better investment is on a 4 Digit TSA Padlock approved if you love your luggage and contents. MIne has been opened twice with the famous note left. Glad someone gave me this advice.
11) Taxis: US Got too much lugagge. Do not want the car hire neither have anyone to pick you? No worries. Plenty of taxis and they are reasonably priced. EU: If you do not have anyone to pick you or a rental, you will pay dearly for the taxi and sometimes find taxists that do not want to take you where you want to go (too much luggage, traffic, etc.). UK = No pre-booked taxi (UBER), no rental or someone to pick you up? YOU ARE DONE. UBER, by the way, can be as much as GBP 80.00 on a ride to London Z4.


To my mind you are looking at this from a US perspective, as a UK citizen, I find US immigration painful to say the least, long lines ridiculously slow progress followed by big time sarcasm at best from the immigration officer.
Airport staff particularly bag drop/check in can be variable in Europe, in the US definitely expect to be treated like something that has been trodden on.

No one yet has mentioned duty free, in the rest of the World, you buy your goods and take it with you, in the US its delivered to the jetway and you have to look through the pile to find yours.


I understand your point but I only can pass on what I experienced so far traveling around. (I am a UA and BA Frequent Flyer and also have a Sky Service Account which is used occasionally).

I've never had any issues with US Immigration (I hold a British Passport) so far (touch wood for what you say...). But the UK ones are quite annoying sometimes - when they are THERE. Until I renewed my passport recently, I could not use e-gates because the chip on my passport stopped working and the endless jibes from Immigration about were a killer: "Why don't you use e-gate?? (you explain) / You need to change your passport (explain that you will do it asap) / Why Change??? Your passport is not expiring!!". I've had this dialog more than three times.

Luggage wise, the only issue I've had in the US was once in MIA when flying from LGA. Took ages for the luggage to come but that was because the aircraft door was jammed. In UK, it is a lottery (lost a taxi a couple of times because of demasiated wait).

As for shopping on other non-EU Airports, I did not mention anything since this is a threat to compare EU x US airlines. So I did not mention DXB, DOH, etc. - other airports I tend to use quieta bit.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:00 am

RollerRB211 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
1) Stand-by Tickets: soo normal in US but it is very rare in Europe. I just saw one case last month when travelling with ITA - saw a group with standby tickets at check-in desk being given instructions (nothing bad). I might be a bit dumb but I do not get the reason to sell those to ordinary people other than airline employees;


I am not aware of a single airline that sells standby tickets to ordinary people in the US


Thanks for this. It is just that I seem to see so many usually when I am around US whereas in EU is just rare. My mistake!
 
Jomar777
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:05 am

SkyLife wrote:
RollerRB211 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
1) Stand-by Tickets: soo normal in US but it is very rare in Europe. I just saw one case last month when travelling with ITA - saw a group with standby tickets at check-in desk being given instructions (nothing bad). I might be a bit dumb but I do not get the reason to sell those to ordinary people other than airline employees;


I am not aware of a single airline that sells standby tickets to ordinary people in the US


Several US airlines allow revenue passengers to standby for an earlier flight or a missed flight but they still purchased a revenue ticket. I’m not aware of standby only tickets except those available to employees and family/friends of said employees.


Understand. Usually in EU (correct if I am wrong) you do not get to standby for an earlier flight. "No way, Jose!!". I think you would have to have a flexible ticket for it. As for missed flights, as far as I am concerned, in EU, you either have to buy a new ticket (if you missed the flight by a fault of your own) or you are automatically booked on the next available flight (if airlines fault - i.e. missed connection) as a "full passenger" on the class you paid for - no ifs no buts. You also are liable to compensation from the airline and food and accommodation if needed as per EU regulations.

The above only happened to me once thanks to a Swiss "impossible connection" from LHR to LED. Missed connection in ZRH and got plenty of food vouchers to pass by until the next flight which I was allocated as full fare paying passenger (no standby) with priority boarding. The only issue was that I ended up in Moscow 01:50am to attend a wedding on the following lunchtime. Worse was for the groom - which went to pick me up at the airport at that time on a -19ºC February (!!!)
 
floridaflyboy
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:57 pm

RollerRB211 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
1) Stand-by Tickets: soo normal in US but it is very rare in Europe. I just saw one case last month when travelling with ITA - saw a group with standby tickets at check-in desk being given instructions (nothing bad). I might be a bit dumb but I do not get the reason to sell those to ordinary people other than airline employees;


I am not aware of a single airline that sells standby tickets to ordinary people in the US


The last one I recall doing it was airTran in the mid-2000s. They had a program called airTran University which allowed college students to buy standby tickets for a distance-based flat rate (I.e. $30 for up to xx miles, $40 for up to yy miles, etc.). I can’t think of any airlines doing anything similar since.
 
Vicenza
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:09 pm

Lostmoon744 wrote:
European pilots engage the A/P as soon as possible and can't wait until the plane flies itself. Meanwhile, American pilots actually fly the plane themselves to keep their stick/rudder skills honed.


That, to me, is a rather generalised, and far reaching statement and opinion. Do you have factual evidence to show this and, in fact, what I personally feel to be a mere guess. Are you really suggesting that American pilots are more skilful than European?
 
Vicenza
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:15 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
[ And some airlines them down for take-off.


Window shades down during take-off and landing in Europe is a safety requirement.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:31 pm

smed63 wrote:
schernov wrote:
Jetways - no glass jetways in US. Why is that?

Not very common in US, I agree, but at least Amarillo, Texas has (or had when I last flew from there about five years ago) glass jetways.


That could be THE highlight of a visit to KAMA.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:32 pm

rbretas wrote:
Do European Airlines usually allow passengers to switch to an earlier flight during check-in if they have a basic economy ticket (and seats are available, of course)?

I've done that a few times in the the Americas, but in Japan it's only allowed if you have a ticket that allows free rebooking or paying for rebooking (effectively rebooking your flight).

Depends, but in my experience, short of full Y -- not really, no. I was having a similar discussion in FRA once -- my flight home was routed FRA-VIE-KBP (OS metal, OS ticket stock, OS flight numbers), and they positively could not put me on an earlier flight. I was ready to do direct FRA-KBP -- they refused, as that would have meant revenue loss for OS; gotta buy a new ticker for that.
I was ready to take an earlier OS FRA-VIE-KBP, but system was telling the agent that would mean re-issue of the ticket at a full Y rate. I was ready to take an earlier FRA-VIE, and stick around in VIE till my flight home, and even that was not possible without a ticket re-issue, apparently at full Y again.
And that's all without looking at the inventory, just fare rules.

Ended up sticking around in town for extra few hours. Not a problem, but just funny how limited options are for the agent, having in theory all the machinery at their disposal.

On the other hand, with full Y in your pocket, things are magic. I remember a rebooking done in front of me -- fella changed an airline, the time and the day -- ending up at his destination more than half a day earlier. Without a dime extra.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:32 pm

Vicenza wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
[ And some airlines them down for take-off.


Window shades down during take-off and landing in Europe is a safety requirement.


What risk assessment is that based on? How is closed up windows safer?
 
Eikie
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:32 pm

Vicenza wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
[ And some airlines them down for take-off.


Window shades down during take-off and landing in Europe is a safety requirement.
No, it's not.

EASA (and ICAO) states:

1.Examples of ‘cabin secured aspects’, including window blinds, are in line with ICAO Doc

10002. Open window blinds during taxiing, take-off and landing enable both the cabin crew
and the passengers to see the outside conditions during the most critical stages of flight. The
fact they are open may be vital; a rapid action by cabin crew members or information from
passengers on outside conditions, which cabin crew may not be able to see from their crew
stations, e.g. a flat tire, wing surface contamination, smoke/fire e.g. on the engine, etc.
 
BA777FO
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:14 pm

Vicenza wrote:
Lostmoon744 wrote:
European pilots engage the A/P as soon as possible and can't wait until the plane flies itself. Meanwhile, American pilots actually fly the plane themselves to keep their stick/rudder skills honed.


That, to me, is a rather generalised, and far reaching statement and opinion. Do you have factual evidence to show this and, in fact, what I personally feel to be a mere guess. Are you really suggesting that American pilots are more skilful than European?


I agree. On the 737 I used to hand fly quite often up to 20,000ft ish and during descent below 20,000ft. Longhaul is a bit different as it often involves a very long day or an overnight flight. I don't fancy handflying through an Indian monsoon after 2 hours sleep or Florida thunderstorms after a 9 hour sector. But on a nice day into one of our quieter airfields it's great, especially visuals into the Caribbean like ANU, UVF, GND etc.

At the end of the day the AFDS is a workload management tool. It's there to be used to free up capacity for other tasks. Up to 20,000ft is fine every once in a while, but at that point we're negotiating levels, have a final ZFW to enter, oceanic clearance to request and check it's easier to just engage the A/P and concentrate on managing the flight. At the end of the day I won't gain much from flying wings level 5° nose up for another 15,000ft.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:17 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
RollerRB211 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
1) Stand-by Tickets: soo normal in US but it is very rare in Europe. I just saw one case last month when travelling with ITA - saw a group with standby tickets at check-in desk being given instructions (nothing bad). I might be a bit dumb but I do not get the reason to sell those to ordinary people other than airline employees;


I am not aware of a single airline that sells standby tickets to ordinary people in the US


The last one I recall doing it was airTran in the mid-2000s. They had a program called airTran University which allowed college students to buy standby tickets for a distance-based flat rate (I.e. $30 for up to xx miles, $40 for up to yy miles, etc.). I can’t think of any airlines doing anything similar since.


AirTran has been gone a long time.

As for going early on U.S. Basic Economy tickets, I believe the rule is 'Forget it!' (My knowledge across the U.S. major 11 carriers is not comprehensive.)

Going early on 'regular' tickets is often a Frequent Flyer upper elite benefit on legacy carriers AA/DL/UA/AS. For non-elites there is typically a fee.

Maybe what the earlier poster observed wasn't a family buying standby tickets but instead clearing the standby list in IROP?
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:05 pm

RollerRB211 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
1) Stand-by Tickets: soo normal in US but it is very rare in Europe. I just saw one case last month when travelling with ITA - saw a group with standby tickets at check-in desk being given instructions (nothing bad). I might be a bit dumb but I do not get the reason to sell those to ordinary people other than airline employees;


I am not aware of a single airline that sells standby tickets to ordinary people in the US


Airtran did it till Southwest killed it. It was for college students 18-22 called Airtran U
 
schernov
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:09 pm

I don't think there is a stand by ticket in US. There might be a last minute sale fare but you still buy it like any other ticket.

All of "stand by" that is done every day is getting on the earlier flight. Prior to pandemic it was a perk if you are had status. Without status you were charged $50-225 depending on airline and route.
During pandemic and now - most airlines will put you on the earlier / later flight at no cost if there are seats. Given how flights are oversold - in many cases airlines off you $$ to switch flights.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:54 pm

iadadd wrote:
Connecting from a Non-Schengen flight to a Schengen flight and not needing to collect and recheck bags is a huge plus for EU travel. If you're connecting from Int'l to Domestic in the U.S. you have to claim and recheck bags, but to be fair this is common practice in many countries


This is not up to the airlines but the immigration practices. I think in the US the big issue is that in the US terminals often have domestic and international flights in the same terminal or section of terminal where many other countries do not utilize this practice. One thing I haven't heard mentioned I only see in the US is that duty free is handed to you at the gate. I know why this is but it always seems odd to me that this is still done. I can't imagine that many people are handing off duty free to domestic pax so they can get cheap items.

IIRC YYZ (not sure about other Canadian airports) does not require you to collect and recheck bags if you are connecting from international to domestic lets say LHR-YYZ-YWG. This is for select countries however (Japan, the EU, UK, Israel etc.). You would clear Canadian immigration at YYZ and I believe the CBSA can pull the checked bag.

You also don't need to claim your bags if transiting at YYZ from international cities to the US. You would go to pre-clearance but wouldn't need to claim your bags. CBP can also pull them at their discretion.

https://www.torontopearson.com/en/connections
 
HotelSoap
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:00 pm

spantax wrote:
Another one (a little/lot off-topic....):
Most big European airports are reachable by bicycle and foot (and, of course, all the small ones). In the US I can't tell for sure (correct me if I am wrong) but my impression it that this is not the case. For instance, MIA airport is totally surrounded by motorways; there is no way to get by foot. Even if you are lodging at a very close hotel you have to take a shuttle or taxi.
Regards,


There are relatively few airports in the US that weren't repurposed military fields, or don't date back many decades. One of the newest purpose-built civil airports in the US just celebrated its 50th anniversary.

Combine with the fact that many US cities are geographically spread, and not culturally or climatically pedestrian or cyclist friendly, means that you'll be taking a car or bus, or occasionally a train to the airport.
 
Heinkel
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:31 pm

Vicenza wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
[ And some airlines them down for take-off.


Window shades down during take-off and landing in Europe is a safety requirement.


Keh? Where did you read that?

Most of my flying is in Europe and I've never ever have the shades DOWN during TO or landing.

Or did you mean, shades UP is a saftey requirement?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:38 pm

HotelSoap wrote:
Combine with the fact that many US cities are geographically spread, and not culturally or climatically pedestrian or cyclist friendly, means that you'll be taking a car or bus, or occasionally a train to the airport.

To be fair, very few people anywhere arrive on foot or by bike (though I have done both). Unless it's a really small town or you're carrying just very light luggage, you need some form of motorized transport.

However, I feel like European airports tend to be better connected by bus or train compared to the US. West of the Atlantic, you're just expected to either hail a cab or get a rental car.
 
pacman3
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:43 am

mxaxai wrote:
HotelSoap wrote:
Combine with the fact that many US cities are geographically spread, and not culturally or climatically pedestrian or cyclist friendly, means that you'll be taking a car or bus, or occasionally a train to the airport.

To be fair, very few people anywhere arrive on foot or by bike (though I have done both). Unless it's a really small town or you're carrying just very light luggage, you need some form of motorized transport.

However, I feel like European airports tend to be better connected by bus or train compared to the US. West of the Atlantic, you're just expected to either hail a cab or get a rental car.



I’m not so sure it is true that in the US, people are expected to hail cabs or get rental cars when leaving airports. SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, and a number of others have both bus and train service, as well as ride shares.
 
schernov
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:46 am

Regarding immigration clearance in US:
It's a federal law that all arrivals must clear immigration at port or entry: air, land or water. That's why the bag collection and recheck. And there is no connections to a third country without it. So airlines just follow the rules.
 
schernov
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:47 am

Add chicago ORD and MDW to the list. Direct train service 24-7.
 
johns624
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:04 am

Lostmoon744 wrote:
European pilots engage the A/P as soon as possible and can't wait until the plane flies itself. Meanwhile, American pilots actually fly the plane themselves to keep their stick/rudder skills honed.
I remember my brother telling me of some of the senior NW Diesel captains handflying the entire trip and seeing how close they could keep it to the assigned altitude. He picked up the habit and never had a problem with some who other FOs thought were hard to fly with.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:43 am

We had an EA Captain that would hand fly his leg and eat his lunch while doing so. Don S. was the name, BOSFO. It wasn’t too pretty, either.
 
18C36C
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:00 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
smed63 wrote:
schernov wrote:
Jetways - no glass jetways in US. Why is that?

Not very common in US, I agree, but at least Amarillo, Texas has (or had when I last flew from there about five years ago) glass jetways.


That could be THE highlight of a visit to KAMA.


Huntsville, AL
Sioux Falls, SD
Fort Myers, FL

All have glass JBs
 
Eikie
Posts: 228
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:47 am

johns624 wrote:
Lostmoon744 wrote:
European pilots engage the A/P as soon as possible and can't wait until the plane flies itself. Meanwhile, American pilots actually fly the plane themselves to keep their stick/rudder skills honed.
I remember my brother telling me of some of the senior NW Diesel captains handflying the entire trip and seeing how close they could keep it to the assigned altitude. He picked up the habit and never had a problem with some who other FOs thought were hard to fly with.

Nowadays that would in fact be "illegal", as with modern day RVSM airspace, use of autopilot is mandatory.

Above fl290 you would have to inform atc you are not rvsm compliant, which might result in reroutes or lower levels.
 
Swed3120
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:07 am

A maybe slightly more clear cut divide is in Flight call signs, most European carriers use the form Shuttle 09T for BA1435 or Easy 65UX for U26907 whereas American carriers prefer using the flight number even on 4 digits flights, I.e American 2907 for AA2907 or Brickyard 4976 for AA4976
 
Heinkel
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:44 am

schernov wrote:
Regarding immigration clearance in US:
It's a federal law that all arrivals must clear immigration at port or entry: air, land or water. That's why the bag collection and recheck. And there is no connections to a third country without it. So airlines just follow the rules.


Strictly speaking, when you are at an airport and connectiong to a third country and staying airside, you are not entering the country of the airport. So there is no immigration, as long as you stay airside (No man's land).

Laws in the USA may vary.
 
Breathe
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:38 pm

Vicenza wrote:
Breathe wrote:
Vicenza wrote:

Air service in the EU is very heavily regulated and administered by EU law and applies to all countries in the European Union. Indeed, it is recognised as something of a gold-standard and additionally implemented by other non-EU jurisdictions. I think the member was primarily meaning that there are very many US laws in everyday life which vary from state to state.

Not all European countries are part of the EU organisation though, Russia being one notable example.


Yes, but those countries have implemented EU aviation regulations as standard. Remember there is an EEA. Russia is not a notable example at all, because it is debatable if it is Europe (the vast majority is in Asia) and cannot be in either the EU or EEA.

Cyprus is technically in Asia, yet is a member of the EU.
 
schernov
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:33 pm

Heinkel wrote:
schernov wrote:
Regarding immigration clearance in US:
It's a federal law that all arrivals must clear immigration at port or entry: air, land or water. That's why the bag collection and recheck. And there is no connections to a third country without it. So airlines just follow the rules.


Strictly speaking, when you are at an airport and connectiong to a third country and staying airside, you are not entering the country of the airport. So there is no immigration, as long as you stay airside (No man's land).

Laws in the USA may vary.


In US- if you land from abroad - you go thru immigration / customs 100%. There is no transit area. Even when there is a diversion of an aircraft to US airport - all passengers go thru immigration and are granted "parole" for duration of unforeseen stop.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:06 pm

Heinkel wrote:
schernov wrote:
Regarding immigration clearance in US:
It's a federal law that all arrivals must clear immigration at port or entry: air, land or water. That's why the bag collection and recheck. And there is no connections to a third country without it. So airlines just follow the rules.


Strictly speaking, when you are at an airport and connectiong to a third country and staying airside, you are not entering the country of the airport. So there is no immigration, as long as you stay airside (No man's land).

Laws in the USA may vary.


US Laws and airport design post a limitation as well, many US terminals handle both international and domestic in the same terminal or concourse. Your next international flight might be leaving from a domestic gate. If you were transitioned to the domestic area and had no checked bags (or one you didn't care about) you could effectively walk out bypassing customs.

You could be traveling from JFK-LAX at one gate and JFK-LHR at the next gate. I remember at BOS a sassy CBP agent was asking why I was here I said I am transiting to Toronto on a flight in 2 hours and he frisbeed by passport back at me. He was like seriously. This is likely set up as the US domestic networks is far more extensive than other countries given its size.

Like the example above If you are transiting at an airport like LAX you might be taking a bit of a walk outside and have entered the country, you have technically entered the country and its not in mans land.
There should be exceptions at airports that can facilitate it such as a TBIT to TBIT connection at LAX as an example.
 
Cory6188
Topic Author
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:30 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
US Laws and airport design post a limitation as well, many US terminals handle both international and domestic in the same terminal or concourse. Your next international flight might be leaving from a domestic gate. If you were transitioned to the domestic area and had no checked bags (or one you didn't care about) you could effectively walk out bypassing customs.

You could be traveling from JFK-LAX at one gate and JFK-LHR at the next gate.


For that matter, are there any terminals in the US anywhere that have exclusively international departures? I can't think of any - even ORD Terminal 5 and the International Terminal at SFO have domestic flights.

It does amuse me in ATL concourse E or F, for example, that you can have something as mundane as ATL-CSG next to ATL-EZE.
 
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Polot
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:36 pm

Cory6188 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
US Laws and airport design post a limitation as well, many US terminals handle both international and domestic in the same terminal or concourse. Your next international flight might be leaving from a domestic gate. If you were transitioned to the domestic area and had no checked bags (or one you didn't care about) you could effectively walk out bypassing customs.

You could be traveling from JFK-LAX at one gate and JFK-LHR at the next gate.


For that matter, are there any terminals in the US anywhere that have exclusively international departures? I can't think of any - even ORD Terminal 5 and the International Terminal at SFO have domestic flights.

It does amuse me in ATL concourse E or F, for example, that you can have something as mundane as ATL-CSG next to ATL-EZE.

I don’t think there are any regularly scheduled domestic flights out of JFK T1, mostly because I think EA might be the only US airline that flies out of there.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:21 pm

Cory6188 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
US Laws and airport design post a limitation as well, many US terminals handle both international and domestic in the same terminal or concourse. Your next international flight might be leaving from a domestic gate. If you were transitioned to the domestic area and had no checked bags (or one you didn't care about) you could effectively walk out bypassing customs.

You could be traveling from JFK-LAX at one gate and JFK-LHR at the next gate.


For that matter, are there any terminals in the US anywhere that have exclusively international departures? I can't think of any - even ORD Terminal 5 and the International Terminal at SFO have domestic flights.

It does amuse me in ATL concourse E or F, for example, that you can have something as mundane as ATL-CSG next to ATL-EZE.


TBIT at LAX is all international. I don't think international flights of the domestic carriers operate out of it and only the foreign ones. Domestic carriers use their own terminals.

Furthermore I think this is gone now but IIRC QF used to have some flights come (BNE-LAX IIRC) used T4 and NZ used T2. This was 10-15 years ago though and before TBIT's renovation.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:50 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
...
US Laws and airport design post a limitation as well, many US terminals handle both international and domestic in the same terminal or concourse. Your next international flight might be leaving from a domestic gate. If you were transitioned to the domestic area and had no checked bags (or one you didn't care about) you could effectively walk out bypassing customs.

You could be traveling from JFK-LAX at one gate and JFK-LHR at the next gate. I remember at BOS a sassy CBP agent was asking why I was here I said I am transiting to Toronto on a flight in 2 hours and he frisbeed by passport back at me. He was like seriously. ...


Well, this obviously means less business for selling connections. If I remember well, there was a European airline mini-hub at Miami (was it Iberia?). They quit it, because just the whole charade of obtaining US entry rights for folks, who have no plans to enter the US (just connect through whatever was a good connecting airport), wasn't working too well.
If Cuba wasn't in a condition it is today, I wonder if Havana would be a workable mini-hub, allowing folks to avoid this whole "I frisbee your passport back at you, because you can't be serious" sort of nonsense
 
floridaflyboy
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:58 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Cory6188 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
US Laws and airport design post a limitation as well, many US terminals handle both international and domestic in the same terminal or concourse. Your next international flight might be leaving from a domestic gate. If you were transitioned to the domestic area and had no checked bags (or one you didn't care about) you could effectively walk out bypassing customs.

You could be traveling from JFK-LAX at one gate and JFK-LHR at the next gate.


For that matter, are there any terminals in the US anywhere that have exclusively international departures? I can't think of any - even ORD Terminal 5 and the International Terminal at SFO have domestic flights.

It does amuse me in ATL concourse E or F, for example, that you can have something as mundane as ATL-CSG next to ATL-EZE.


TBIT at LAX is all international. I don't think international flights of the domestic carriers operate out of it and only the foreign ones. Domestic carriers use their own terminals.

Furthermore I think this is gone now but IIRC QF used to have some flights come (BNE-LAX IIRC) used T4 and NZ used T2. This was 10-15 years ago though and before TBIT's renovation.


By intention, TBIT is all international, but in practice, it isn't. In the last several years, I've arrived at TBIT 4 times on domestic DL flights during their terminal remodel. It may be intended for international, but as a matter of operations, it's not 100%.
 
Cory6188
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:09 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
By intention, TBIT is all international, but in practice, it isn't. In the last several years, I've arrived at TBIT 4 times on domestic DL flights during their terminal remodel. It may be intended for international, but as a matter of operations, it's not 100%.


I flew LAX-ATL out of TBIT at the end of last year - so at least for now, DL is running some domestic operations out of TBIT.
 
Vicenza
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:20 pm

Breathe wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
Breathe wrote:
Not all European countries are part of the EU organisation though, Russia being one notable example.


Yes, but those countries have implemented EU aviation regulations as standard. Remember there is an EEA. Russia is not a notable example at all, because it is debatable if it is Europe (the vast majority is in Asia) and cannot be in either the EU or EEA.

Cyprus is technically in Asia, yet is a member of the EU.


Yes, but what point are you trying to make regarding the small island of Cyprus, and it is entirely different from your example of Russia?.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:24 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
If Cuba wasn't in a condition it is today, I wonder if Havana would be a workable mini-hub, allowing folks to avoid this whole "I frisbee your passport back at you, because you can't be serious" sort of nonsense


I was pissed he didn't stamp it. I have like 6 or so US stamps from YYZ already but wanted another one. Clearly that guy was in a mood that day.
I declared maple syrup at SYD once and the customs agent laughed. My response, aren't you hardass about food coming in. He was like, you are from Canada g'head mate.

My friend was behind me at YYZ pre-clearance when me, my brother and him were going to Miami for a Dolphins game. The CBP pre-clearance guy said to him, why don't you watch them play in Buffalo. He said " Would you go to Buffalo over Miami" He said " Enjoy your trip"

Slightly off topic but there are a few funny customs interactions.

For Europe to Latin America many major cities get service directly from Europe and I don't think they need a specific city to accommodate. You can also transit YYZ, PTY, MEX etc which all get service to major European hubs and major hubs in South America.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:52 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
...

For Europe to Latin America many major cities get service directly from Europe and I don't think they need a specific city to accommodate. You can also transit YYZ, PTY, MEX etc which all get service to major European hubs and major hubs in South America.


If you were an Air France or an Iberia of this world, would you prefer to run fragmented services to the Caribbean destinations, or would you prefer to hub them and run heavy equipment (A380 for pre-COVID Air France, for example)? The answer is "it depends", but if you had a hassle-free hub at Miami, you'd probably seriously work on an option of consolidating and upgauging things (and in case of Iberia, immediately looking at option to feed some traffic to LHR; and for Air France -- same for AMS).
Lack a hassle-free hub option at MIA, unworkable HAV, and basically too few viable hub options for them, yes, I guess they all resolve to fly fragmented routes. Some where doing triangle services.

US airlines, when they operated their European connections (and some even had hubs, I remember flying Delta via their Frankfurt hub, a Pan Am legacy), had an advantage of sterile zones and lack of nonsense.
 
Breathe
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:31 pm

Vicenza wrote:
Breathe wrote:
Vicenza wrote:

Yes, but those countries have implemented EU aviation regulations as standard. Remember there is an EEA. Russia is not a notable example at all, because it is debatable if it is Europe (the vast majority is in Asia) and cannot be in either the EU or EEA.

Cyprus is technically in Asia, yet is a member of the EU.


Yes, but what point are you trying to make regarding the small island of Cyprus, and it is entirely different from your example of Russia?.

Russia is (and most of its population) are mainly in the European part of it. Hence the the title of the thread being a bit broad.
 
Chemist
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:25 am

It's precisely due to the "clear customs/pick up bags/drop off bags/go back through security" in the US that I made certain flight reservations recently. We were flying LAX-PUJ and there are no nonstops. If I were to take say AA or DL, I'd connect through DFW or MIA or ATL. On the way back I would have to go through the customs circus. So instead we flew CM (Copa) to PTY and then to PUJ. So on the way back home, we flew to Panama City, no customs, transit to an LAX flight, and clear customs and pickup bags at our final US destination, no circus required. It was a bit longer flying distance, but I didn't have to deal with the stress and delays of customs lines in one of those mentioned hub cities. Instead I was relaxing on a flight instead.
 
anstar
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:02 am

Cory6188 wrote:

[*]Exit row luggage & window shades: US airlines don't care if pax in exit rows put items under the seat in front of them, while it's a strict no-no on EU airlines. I consider both US and EU airlines to hold similarly high safety standards - so what makes that safe/acceptable in the US, but not in Europe? Similarly, EU airlines are much more deliberate about requiring window shades up for takeoff & landing, and I've never heard crews on US airlines comment one way or another.


Do you really want bags and other trip hazards at an emergency exit which could trip people up and block or slow down the exit?
 
StarAC17
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Re: Differences in US vs. European Airline Operating Practices

Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:56 pm

Chemist wrote:
It's precisely due to the "clear customs/pick up bags/drop off bags/go back through security" in the US that I made certain flight reservations recently. We were flying LAX-PUJ and there are no nonstops. If I were to take say AA or DL, I'd connect through DFW or MIA or ATL. On the way back I would have to go through the customs circus. So instead we flew CM (Copa) to PTY and then to PUJ. So on the way back home, we flew to Panama City, no customs, transit to an LAX flight, and clear customs and pickup bags at our final US destination, no circus required. It was a bit longer flying distance, but I didn't have to deal with the stress and delays of customs lines in one of those mentioned hub cities. Instead I was relaxing on a flight instead.


Because your home destination is a US airport and you would connect at DFW or MIA you would clear immigration at your first point of entry. This doesn't differ anywhere else in the world IIRC if your final destination is in that country. In Europe you would clear immigration at your first Schengen airport, however the bag recheck is not required.

I get that you don't want the hassle with the stress of having to make a connection and PTY is actually really easy to connect in as they don't separate their arriving and departing pax. so no security line.

The gripe I would have is there is a good chance I will be flying MGA-MIA-YYZ in February. I should be able to avoid US immigration at MIA. Had it been FRA, CDG, YYZ, AKL, AMS etc its a security check and back in the terminal.

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