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SaieshPai
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Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:36 am

As most of us are aware, a lot of nations have closed their airspace to Russian registered and chartered aircraft, however, it doesn't make sense that Japan has allowed Aeroflot(SU) to use its airspace. At the time of writing this, flight SU638 from Vladivostok to Phuket is flying over Fukuoka, using Japanese airspace. However, ANA and JAL do not use Russian airspace, which evident but I am surprised Japan allows SU overflight rights.
Any thoughts on this?
 
Speedy752
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:16 am

The question would be is this a permitted use of airspace, or a breach where they can expect company.
 
Max Q
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:20 am

The question is why Japan is allowing Russian overflights when it doesn’t appear that’s being reciprocated

All the JAL and ANA flights I see are avoiding Russian airspace and taking long out of the way routings north of Anchorage to fly Tom and from Europe
 
Tokyo777
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:33 am

Probably part of Japan's strategy to not get involved and not make enemies. Japanese airlines will avoid Russian airspace for safety reasons, even if they aren't banned from Russian airspace.
Along these lines, why do Russian flights avoid Chinese airspace (flights between Moscow and Vladivostok) but Chinese airlines are overflying Russian airspace daily?
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:10 am

Tokyo777 wrote:
Probably part of Japan's strategy to not get involved and not make enemies. Japanese airlines will avoid Russian airspace for safety reasons, even if they aren't banned from Russian airspace.
Along these lines, why do Russian flights avoid Chinese airspace (flights between Moscow and Vladivostok) but Chinese airlines are overflying Russian airspace daily?

For flights between Moscow and VVO they have never flew over China. It was always over KHV and detour.

It must be easier paperwork wise plus you don't have to deal with a second country for a short detour (and remember CAAC is never known to make things easier for anybody)

Michael
 
raylee67
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:16 am

I don't think Japan has closed its airspace to Russian airliners.

There was a news article on Mar 2 2022 from Asahi News (https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14561801). It specifically stated "A high-ranking Foreign Ministry official said a ban on Russian airlines from flying over Japanese airspace was not a realistic option."

That was after EU, Canada and US closed their airspace to the Russian. I don't think Japan has changed their view since then. As for JAL and ANA, they voluntarily stopped flying over Russia. Most of the Japanese companies are very risk averse. I can see why JAL and ANA just want to be staying as far away as possible from Russian airspace, especially that Russia has listed Japan (along with Korea, Taiwan and Singapore) as "unfriendly" countries due to their other sanctions against Russia.

From national defense perspective, Japan's primary concern is with China and North Korea. While Russia is not a friendly neighbour, Japan feels relatively easy with Russia. Probably that's why Japan did not follow through with ALL the actions taken by western countries against Russia. That said, it did impose sanctions that fit more its strength, e.g. it has banned export of precision engineering products to Russia. Those are products that Japan dominates in the world market but are essential as a component or a part of the manufacturing process for a lot of industrial and technology products. There is almost no replacement for those Japanese exports. That has a huge impact on Russia, much more so than banning Russian planes from overflying Japanese airspace. At the end of the day, if Japan bans Russian planes, it's just a annoyance for Russia. They can divert their planes north and fly over Sakhalin Island to cross into international airspace over North Pacific. No big deal. Japan is strategically choosing to restrict on items where it makes a difference, while leaving the ones that are mere inconvenience out.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:00 am

Tokyo777 wrote:
Probably part of Japan's strategy to not get involved and not make enemies. Japanese airlines will avoid Russian airspace for safety reasons, even if they aren't banned from Russian airspace.
Along these lines, why do Russian flights avoid Chinese airspace (flights between Moscow and Vladivostok) but Chinese airlines are overflying Russian airspace daily?


Japan has sanctioned Russia heavily along with the G7, and has sent military supplies to Ukraine, Japan doesn’t have a current strategy “to not get involved.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 022-08-23/
 
Kikko19
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:33 pm

Japan buys oil and gas from Russia. Business as usual.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:56 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Japan buys oil and gas from Russia. Business as usual.


So does Korea, who are also still building ARC7 LNG carriers for the Yamal to Asia routes.
 
raylee67
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:32 am

Kikko19 wrote:
Japan buys oil and gas from Russia. Business as usual.


Yep, true say.
Fresh news from Nov 2022: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/ ... pan-stake/

Mostly Asian countries are staying out of drastic actions. Some of them probably are secretly happy that they are able to take advantage of the situation and get Russian oil at much lower price than the global oil price. India even publicly stated that.

While most East Asian countries have not banned Russian airliners from flying over their airspace, their airlines are voluntarily avoiding Russian airspace. Not just Japanese and Korean airlines, but East Asian airlines such as Thai and Cathay Pacific are avoiding Russian airspace as much as possible (at least for their European flights). What is in their mind is the Malaysia Airlines shot down in 2014, and may be operational challenges such as possible emergency landing (parts availability for maintenance, etc.) and payment for airspace usage.
 
dcajet
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:20 am

raylee67 wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
Japan buys oil and gas from Russia. Business as usual.


Yep, true say.
Fresh news from Nov 2022: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/ ... pan-stake/

Mostly Asian countries are staying out of drastic actions. Some of them probably are secretly happy that they are able to take advantage of the situation and get Russian oil at much lower price than the global oil price. India even publicly stated that.

While most East Asian countries have not banned Russian airliners from flying over their airspace, their airlines are voluntarily avoiding Russian airspace. Not just Japanese and Korean airlines, but East Asian airlines such as Thai and Cathay Pacific are avoiding Russian airspace as much as possible (at least for their European flights). What is in their mind is the Malaysia Airlines shot down in 2014, and may be operational challenges such as possible emergency landing (parts availability for maintenance, etc.) and payment for airspace usage.


Insurance premiums must also have gone up for usage of the Russian airspace, another reason to stay away from it, even if no sanctions are involved.
 
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zeke
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:17 am

SaieshPai wrote:
As most of us are aware, a lot of nations have closed their airspace to Russian registered and chartered aircraft, however, it doesn't make sense that Japan has allowed Aeroflot(SU) to use its airspace. At the time of writing this, flight SU638 from Vladivostok to Phuket is flying over Fukuoka, using Japanese airspace. However, ANA and JAL do not use Russian airspace, which evident but I am surprised Japan allows SU overflight rights.
Any thoughts on this?


Some nations have not closed their airspace, they just expect payment of their airspace as per normal. This is where the finance sanctions can hurt, and prevent use of airspace due to the inability to pay.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:24 am

Japan's position is a bit more than pragmatic one. A Pragmatic approach is, for example, the Brazilian one: not to get involved neither sign up to sanctions. But also comit to vote in the UN for ending sanctions.
But Japan does this and a bit further. It sanctions engineering and technology. It does this because of a concern that their products might be sanctioned in US and EU (their main markets) if they do not tow the line.
But it still buys oil and gas from Russia.

As for ther airspace, there are no sanctions and they can fly on each other's airspaces. Only that JAL and ANA avoid this towards avoid reprisals from their western destinations. I am not sure the US, and any EU countr for that matter, would be happy to accept an aircraft that flew over Russian Airspace in their airports for political AND economic (competition) reasons.
 
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Polot
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:13 pm

Jomar777 wrote:

As for ther airspace, there are no sanctions and they can fly on each other's airspaces. Only that JAL and ANA avoid this towards avoid reprisals from their western destinations. I am not sure the US, and any EU countr for that matter, would be happy to accept an aircraft that flew over Russian Airspace in their airports for political AND economic (competition) reasons.

The EU and US accept planes that fly over Russia every day.

The issue is concerns on how it might affect the ability for US and EU airlines to codeshare on their flights. Which is of particular concern to JL and ANA as they have revenue sharing joint ventures with western airlines.
 
COEWR787
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:40 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
Japan's position is a bit more than pragmatic one. A Pragmatic approach is, for example, the Brazilian one: not to get involved neither sign up to As for ther airspace, there are no sanctions and they can fly on each other's airspaces. Only that JAL and ANA avoid this towards avoid reprisals from their western destinations. I am not sure the US, and any EU countr for that matter, would be happy to accept an aircraft that flew over Russian Airspace in their airports for political AND economic (competition) reasons.

Air India flies half a dozen flights each day through Russian air space to the US and back, and another half a dozen to UK and Western Europe and back. No problem or repercussions. Russian planes have occasionally flown to Phuket through Pakistani and Indian air space too.
 
bwvilla
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:07 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
Japan buys oil and gas from Russia. Business as usual.


So does Korea, who are also still building ARC7 LNG carriers for the Yamal to Asia routes.


As someone who's lived in Asia for a long time, it's frustrating but for many people in Asia, Ukraine seems far from home and so the electorates don't force their politicians to take a strong and principled position on the war in the same way that European and American electorates do. So the politicians in Asia try to steer a middle path to cash in whilst saying the right things and not overly upsetting their European and American allies.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:08 pm

bwvilla wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
Japan buys oil and gas from Russia. Business as usual.


So does Korea, who are also still building ARC7 LNG carriers for the Yamal to Asia routes.


As someone who's lived in Asia for a long time, it's frustrating but for many people in Asia, Ukraine seems far from home and so the electorates don't force their politicians to take a strong and principled position on the war in the same way that European and American electorates do. So the politicians in Asia try to steer a middle path to cash in whilst saying the right things and not overly upsetting their European and American allies.


To be fair I can’t blame them for it either, Europes problems are not their problems. I really don’t even see why the US are involved, Ukraine is not in North America.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:53 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
bwvilla wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

So does Korea, who are also still building ARC7 LNG carriers for the Yamal to Asia routes.


As someone who's lived in Asia for a long time, it's frustrating but for many people in Asia, Ukraine seems far from home and so the electorates don't force their politicians to take a strong and principled position on the war in the same way that European and American electorates do. So the politicians in Asia try to steer a middle path to cash in whilst saying the right things and not overly upsetting their European and American allies.


To be fair I can’t blame them for it either, Europes problems are not their problems. I really don’t even see why the US are involved, Ukraine is not in North America.


The US is not involved in the war, but they are a key member of NATO and see the Russian invasion of Ukraine as a threat to NATO’s security. After all, the Russian invasion of Ukraine was to ensure the country did not become a member of NATO. The US is merely supporting the Ukrainians in their efforts to defeat the Russians, whom they see as war criminals to be stopped and pushed back. NATO feels that the West must resist fascism when it’s blossoming next door, and helping neighbors who are dying in its arms is the only way to ensure Russia’s criminal impulses do not seep into NATO-aligned countries. Asia has less skin in the game because they are not strategically threatened by Russia. But they really should ask themselves if they want to leave the door open to criminals.
 
bobtables
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Re: Aeroflot Using Japanese Airspace

Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:33 am

Jomar777 wrote:
I am not sure the US, and any EU countr for that matter, would be happy to accept an aircraft that flew over Russian Airspace in their airports for political AND economic (competition) reasons.


You may want to take a peek at your favourite ADS-B website... at any time of any day you can see plenty of aircraft flying into US/EU airspace, and landing at US/EU airports, which have crossed Russian airspace.

Where one country's aircraft use the other's airspace but not the reverse, the reason is probably not sanctions. E.g. Russian airlines avoid China airspace where possible because it's congested. They already avoided them before the war. Airlines may also plan a detour if the saved overflight fees exceed the extra fuel cost.

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