Singapore Airlines & TATA group have decided to merge their JV airline Vistara into Air India (owned by TATA's now).

The new group entity would include Air India + Vistara + Air India Express + AirAsia India

The two FSC 's : Air India & Vistara be merged into one FSC airline. The other two LCC's - AIX & AirAsia India be merged into a single LCC airline. AirAsia India brand will cease by 2023 end.

Tata will hold 74.9% of the combined entity, while SIA (SIAL.SI) will own the remaining 25.1%.

SQ will invest $250 million in the combined entity.

The entity- both FSC & LCC will operate under AI banner.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/s ... 022-11-29/

https://m.timesofindia.com/business/ind ... obile&s=08

This is a great merger if Air India can get better and not maintain its old habits. Maybe a new name for a new airline in India.

jfk777 wrote:

This is a great merger if Air India can get better and not maintain its old habits. Maybe a new name for a new airline in India.

If they wanted a new name, they would go with Vistara but the reality is Air India has just too much history to let go. I would expect them to retain the Air India brand but perhaps with a new logo.

I wonder if this time the rehabilitation of Air India is the real deal, rather than another one of many false dawns in the past.

If Tata and SIA get this right, Air India could finally become the large carrier it's always had the potential to be.

The Indian market has so much potential. The new Air India has so much to take advantage of now.

Air India has so much potential to expand it's international presence and grow even further. Hopefully the airline can grow from this merger and be headed in the right direction to improve itself.

Meh,
Vistara is overrated and and losing money hand over fist. I doubt TATA/SQ will do any better with AI and all it's legacy BS but I wish them well.

They’ve already started implementing changes on the operational side. From OTP to proper maintenance, the goal has been to have as much of the fleet active, reliably. I also read an article about how they had implemented new strict grooming guidelines.

I think it will take at least a year for the full vision to come out from fleet and network strategy, product enhancements, etc…

usflyer msp wrote:

Meh,
Vistara is overrated and and losing money hand over fist. I doubt TATA/SQ will do any better with AI and all it's legacy BS but I wish them well.

Flew them twice this year and Vistara is a great value. Their business class from SIN was a good product. They really took a page out of SQ when it comes to their premium service.

Who owns Singapore Airlines?

What other airlines does SQ have an investment in?

questions wrote:

Who owns Singapore Airlines?

What other airlines does SQ have an investment in?

The Singaporean Government.

questions wrote:

Who owns Singapore Airlines?

What other airlines does SQ have an investment in?

SIA is owned by Temasek Holdings - a Government of Singapore owned holding company.

SQ used to have stakes in Virgin Australia and Virgin Atlantic, while their LCC subsidiary Scoot used to have a Thailand offshoot named NokScoot, that was part-owned by Nok Air.

I'm curious what the regulatory hurdles are? Will there be an issue if this is creating the only viable full service airline there? (Assuming Jet Airways comeback continues to flounder).

Vistara will become a *A member effectively once the integration is done. FFP programs will be merged as well - will be interesting to see which one they retain. Probably AI's flying return as it's already set up with all *A members globally. But rebranded and cleaned up.

Sounds like a solid strategy to me - I do think retaining the Air India express brand is a mistake
however. I think having an LCC brand that links to the mothership is always risky for brand degradation of the full service carrier.

smi0006 wrote:

Sounds like a solid strategy to me - I do think retaining the Air India express brand is a mistake
however. I think having an LCC brand that links to the mothership is always risky for brand degradation of the full service carrier.

I do as well, but the reality is the LCC market in India has exploded over the past two decades, and DEL and BOM are one of the largest LCC hubs in the world. 6E and SG have expanded into medium-haul markets as well, so AI naturally believes it needs to compete in this sector. I don't fully understand it, and obviously would need to see more P&L data, but I can also see the logic behind it.

Man this is huge. I think AI is gonna become a giant. If I were the ME3, I'd watch this very closely.

IrishAyes wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

Sounds like a solid strategy to me - I do think retaining the Air India express brand is a mistake
however. I think having an LCC brand that links to the mothership is always risky for brand degradation of the full service carrier.

I do as well, but the reality is the LCC market in India has exploded over the past two decades, and DEL and BOM are one of the largest LCC hubs in the world. 6E and SG have expanded into medium-haul markets as well, so AI naturally believes it needs to compete in this sector. I don't fully understand it, and obviously would need to see more P&L data, but I can also see the logic behind it.

Air India Express has listed operating bases at Kannur (CNN), Kochi (COK) , Kozhikode (CCJ)(, Mangaluru (IXE), Thiruvananthapuram (TVR), Tiruchirappalli (TRZ).

It is based in Kochi, and does not list Delhi as a base/hub. The network is purposed towards serving mostly South India to the Gulf States (AUH, BAH, DOH, DXB, JED, KWI, MCT) as well a few other South Indian cities. Connection to DEL, is almost always limited to Air India mainline, and despite large demand, Air India mainline does not offer flights in these sectors (South India to the Gulf States). Air India Express is akin to the former Indian Airlines (and allowing AirIndia to focus on the long-haul routes). The brand's very limited interaction with AirIndia mainline (since creation) has been of benefit in that both operated in different spaces, an 'borrowed' brand recognition, in market where either was unable to compete effectively. AirIndia Express shares many of their key routes, with Indian based LCCs, on the lower end, and the Gulf Carriers above. It is (perhaps unintentionally) a decent way of existing in these markets. The branding, and 'backing' of AirIndia helps with brand recognition and offers some ancillary benefits. I agree that perhaps, Western based customers are accustomed to working with "Express" to mean RJs, and/or other services - however the carrier has been operating for 17 years now, and has been working well enough to keep (and expand) despite fierce competition (and has held itself better against these forces, than mainline Air India has). Thus, I think it warrants a special study and perhaps a caveat against the "Mainline/LCC brand degredation caveat" (and once more, this trend is largely correct - with many famous examples) argument, in that they operate more akin to two separate carriers, each within rather well defined niches (and these are rather well defined by market forces, comparable competitors, and focus), and working under the same branding/ownership.

zuckie13 wrote:

I'm curious what the regulatory hurdles are? Will there be an issue if this is creating the only viable full service airline there? (Assuming Jet Airways comeback continues to flounder).

There should not be any regulatory hurdles as TATA & SIA have been running Vistara with similar stakes for a while now, and being of FSC type has no bearing on it.

This merger is quite promising, hope AI can realize and capitalize on one of the largest growing aviation markets!

With AIX & Air Asia India merger wonder which will become their main hub, currently Air Asia India hub is @BLR.

Can’t help thinking that this is SQ squandering a quarter of a Billon dollars.

xiaotung wrote:

jfk777 wrote:

This is a great merger if Air India can get better and not maintain its old habits. Maybe a new name for a new airline in India.

If they wanted a new name, they would go with Vistara but the reality is Air India has just too much history to let go. I would expect them to retain the Air India brand but perhaps with a new logo.

Too much history, can anyone in the past 25-30 years or so remember anything good about Air India? Safety constantly questioned and proven sub-par, service constantly questioned and proven sub-par, aircraft cannibalized and proven sub-par.

By no means am I saying the employees are at fault, but sometimes, no matter the history, you have to let go of the past to move forward in the future.

TUGMASTER wrote:

Can’t help thinking that this is SQ squandering a quarter of a Billon dollars.

The data points that exist dont support this view. Since Tata takeover, AI has been improving its reliability, on time performance etc. The interiors will get refurbished. The network is expanding from its Delhi Centricity with new flights to USA from BOM and BLR. Early days, but Tata group itself is run by a professional CEO and service industries are a Tata forte. If they can get a decent interior and more non stop connections to India, Indian Diaspora and India based business travel would be sufficient for this to be profitable.

Best, Subramanian

subramak1 wrote:

TUGMASTER wrote:

Can’t help thinking that this is SQ squandering a quarter of a Billon dollars.

The data points that exist dont support this view. Since Tata takeover, AI has been improving its reliability, on time performance etc. The interiors will get refurbished. The network is expanding from its Delhi Centricity with new flights to USA from BOM and BLR. Early days, but Tata group itself is run by a professional CEO and service industries are a Tata forte. If they can get a decent interior and more non stop connections to India, Indian Diaspora and India based business travel would be sufficient for this to be profitable.

Best, Subramanian

Campbell Wilson - was the former CEO of Scoot no? SQ would know and trust him also. He worked for SIA group for 15years… I don’t know how much would be preplanned, but sounds like SQ maybe running the show. See how man exec cross over to AI now. Bodes reasonably well for AI.

I’m curious as I have no understanding- what does the Indian cargo market look like, with e-commerce on the rise, surely there must be phenomenal potential here also?

atal17 wrote:

questions wrote:

Who owns Singapore Airlines?

What other airlines does SQ have an investment in?

SIA is owned by Temasek Holdings - a Government of Singapore owned holding company.

SQ used to have stakes in Virgin Australia and Virgin Atlantic, while their LCC subsidiary Scoot used to have a Thailand offshoot named NokScoot, that was part-owned by Nok Air.

SQ used to have a 25% stake in NZ back when NZ controlled 100% of the now defunct AN.

They were also majority owners in the Tiger Airways Group until they bought out the remaining stake and merged Tiger Singapore into Scoot and sold the various overseas franchises (Tiger Taiwan, Tiger Philippines (now merged into Cebu Pacific) and the defunct Tiger Australia)

TUGMASTER wrote:

Can’t help thinking that this is SQ squandering a quarter of a Billon dollars.

SIA is lot smarter than we are and so is TATA. Just look at the hospitality industry leader like Taj Group or previous incarnation of Air India till nationalization to understand that TATA knows a thing or two about Travel/Hospitalization industries. I'm pretty certain that in due course Air India will be a force to reckon with in Indian aviation market. This appears to be smart investment with lot of upside.

A great move by SQ as this gives them a large stake in one of the biggest potential air markets in the world. Qudos to them for doing so!

fortunerunnner wrote:

TUGMASTER wrote:

Can’t help thinking that this is SQ squandering a quarter of a Billon dollars.

SIA is lot smarter than we are and so is TATA. Just look at the hospitality industry leader like Taj Group or previous incarnation of Air India till nationalization to understand that TATA knows a thing or two about Travel/Hospitalization industries. I'm pretty certain that in due course Air India will be a force to reckon with in Indian aviation market. This appears to be smart investment with lot of upside.

Air India should dominate its market and relegate EK and QR to just one flight per day from its major cities. It is ridiculous that QR and EK are allowed to gorge themselves on pax from this area. Come on Air India, get your act together.

I'm not so sure about SIA's smarts. It owned part of VS which it over paid for and did nothing about helping to manage it.

Singapore Airlines and Air India are chalk and cheese. SQ is a well run airline with a respected high-quality product but, I can't help thinking trying to reorient the service and quality cultures at Air India may be beyond them or anyone else for that matter.

fortunerunnner wrote:

TUGMASTER wrote:

Can’t help thinking that this is SQ squandering a quarter of a Billon dollars.

SIA is lot smarter than we are and so is TATA. Just look at the hospitality industry leader like Taj Group or previous incarnation of Air India till nationalization to understand that TATA knows a thing or two about Travel/Hospitalization industries. I'm pretty certain that in due course Air India will be a force to reckon with in Indian aviation market. This appears to be smart investment with lot of upside.

SQ/Tata launched Vistara and it has never made a profit. Not even one profitable quarter in 8 years. The business prowess of TATA and SQ is greatly overestimated.

The first of those moves, starts here:

https://simpleflying.com/air-india-removes-unprofitable-routes/Air India is on a network clean-up drive and has removed several domestic flights that were losing money. According to a report by Business Standard, the airline is doubling down on metro-to-metro routes while thinning out its presence on many non-metro sectors where it competes with several budget carriers.

Firstly, h/t to SimpleFlying here. Secondly, these routes were part of a structure that was created under government control. Whether or not (or, to what influence) those un-profiable routes continued is now a matter, of a private company, who has much more control and greater responsibility towards profitability. These practical changes, also help allow the Air India Express brand (and crucially, the Air Asia India integration) to better compete in these spaces, and perhaps gain the Air India Express brand more access to traditional Air India strongholds.

Nimish wrote:

Vistara will become a *A member effectively once the integration is done. FFP programs will be merged as well - will be interesting to see which one they retain. Probably AI's flying return as it's already set up with all *A members globally. But rebranded and cleaned up.

Vistara will not be a Star member, it will not exist after the integration.

If Air India can get up, at least to European Airlines Standards, and at least fly Direct to BLR/MAA/HYD in south from USA in addition to SFO[ORD/DFW/LAX]??,Many professionals and retired folks will definitely give them a try.
Certainly they are Flying J in ME3 and the European airlines.
Clean Planes,Good service,and reasonably well prepared food is what I want.I never watch IFE.

usflyer msp wrote:

fortunerunnner wrote:

TUGMASTER wrote:

Can’t help thinking that this is SQ squandering a quarter of a Billon dollars.

SIA is lot smarter than we are and so is TATA. Just look at the hospitality industry leader like Taj Group or previous incarnation of Air India till nationalization to understand that TATA knows a thing or two about Travel/Hospitalization industries. I'm pretty certain that in due course Air India will be a force to reckon with in Indian aviation market. This appears to be smart investment with lot of upside.

SQ/Tata launched Vistara and it has never made a profit. Not even one profitable quarter in 8 years. The business prowess of TATA and SQ is greatly overestimated.

So relatively the same as SQ's previous overseas investments? (The losses SQ made on VS, NZ, VA, etc).

SCFlyer wrote:

atal17 wrote:

questions wrote:

Who owns Singapore Airlines?

What other airlines does SQ have an investment in?

SIA is owned by Temasek Holdings - a Government of Singapore owned holding company.

SQ used to have stakes in Virgin Australia and Virgin Atlantic, while their LCC subsidiary Scoot used to have a Thailand offshoot named NokScoot, that was part-owned by Nok Air.

SQ used to have a 25% stake in NZ back when NZ controlled 100% of the now defunct AN.

They were also majority owners in the Tiger Airways Group until they bought out the remaining stake and merged Tiger Singapore into Scoot and sold the various overseas franchises (Tiger Taiwan, Tiger Philippines (now merged into Cebu Pacific) and the defunct Tiger Australia)

A little correction though

Tigerair Philippines wasn't merged into Cebu Pacific (5J). The airline was bought by 5J and eventually swapped their fleet (320 going to 5J and the ATR going to DG). Tigerair PH is now the Cebgo which has its own codes and aoc inherited from Tigerair PH.

Sent from my RMX2030 using Tapatalk

fortunerunnner wrote:

TUGMASTER wrote:

Can’t help thinking that this is SQ squandering a quarter of a Billon dollars.

SIA is lot smarter than we are and so is TATA. Just look at the hospitality industry leader like Taj Group or previous incarnation of Air India till nationalization to understand that TATA knows a thing or two about Travel/Hospitalization industries. I'm pretty certain that in due course Air India will be a force to reckon with in Indian aviation market. This appears to be smart investment with lot of upside.

As far as I am aware, SQ’s investment in other airlines has been a complete failure.

Are any of the exAI leadership (prior to nationalisation) still alive? That is history move on.

I too am certain that AI will only go up, I mean they are at rock bottom … there is only one way to go. And it seems any changes at AI is becoming sensationalised such as the new grooming standards … really is that such a big deal that the Indian mainstream media have to report on.

There are few things to be stated before we consider this move by AI/SIA.

[list=]India has many airports but the key airports list probably would be the big 6 plus may be another 15 others[/list]
[list=]There are key international markets outside of Gulf where Air India can thrive with non stop services - US cities, LHR, FRA, CDG , MXP, SIN, NRT. [/list]

If Air India can be a dominant player in # 1 in the FSC space ( there is demand for a good FSC in India), they will make money. I am stunned that Air India which launched the shuttle concept between Mumbai and Delhi has not extended this to say Delhi Bangalore, Mumbai Bangalore. Air India and Vistara seem to be doing complementary route planning. Air India's new services and Vistara's new services have not seen an overlap.

As a comparison between Delihi and Mumbai, AI + Vistara offers 25 services one way. compared to Indigo's 14. Vistara alone offers 15 services now. Between BLR and BOM, they again offer 13 services to 6Es 11.

Between India and North America, AI can offer following non stop services with an average daily frequency.

1. DEL - SFO, LAX, SEA, JFK, EWR, IAD, ORD, ATL, DFW, BOS, YVR, YYC
2. BOM - JFK, SFO, ORD
3. BLR - SFO, EWR
4. MAA - EWR
5. HYD - ORD

Between India and Europe, AI can offer the following services with an average daily frequency

1. DEL - FRA, CDG, MXP, LHR ( twice daily)
2. BOM - FRA, CDG, LHR
3. BLR - LHR, FRA
4. PNQ - FRA
5. MAA - FRA

That is 32 international frequencies daily to West alone. Then you add, the assorted services to Australia, NRT, SIN you have a formidable network that can be profitable.

Execution is key but between Tata and SQ they should be able to do it.

Best, Subramanian

tullamarine wrote:

Singapore Airlines and Air India are chalk and cheese. SQ is a well run airline with a respected high-quality product but, I can't help thinking trying to reorient the service and quality cultures at Air India may be beyond them or anyone else for that matter.

Air india's old culture is already gutted and dead. It has been swift and ruthless. Most old staff have left. They have even vacated Air India colony in Mumbai (Which the airport has taken over and it rumoured to be being developed into private aviation and commercial space)

New Air India will take 5 years to fully realise. But credit where it is due, they are doing small things right, and things are moving fast. The need a new product, identity, fleet and now the mergered entity can go shopping. This merger was just a formality, I am pretty sure Tata spoke to SQ before even bidding. As with anything Air india prior to 2021, you only believe anything when you actually see it. I am sure SQ told we will see when it actually happens, and voila its all actually happening.

sibibom wrote:

Air india's old culture is already gutted and dead. It has been swift and ruthless. Most old staff have left

Equally important is who they have been replaced with - if it's replacing senior babus with mid-level AI babus, that won't do us much good

But good to know there's already been a refresh of sorts at AI...

How can we be sure this isn't just the same Air India with a fresh coat of paint, a'la Alitalia

Garuda200 wrote:

How can we be sure this isn't just the same Air India with a fresh coat of paint, a'la Alitalia

Alitalia-ITA still govt owned, Air India is privatised. Apples to oranges.

Without government interference AI has a chance, but an uphill climb for sure. Brave move by SQ to invest at this stage, wish them well and look forward to a growing product.

One market I’ll be looking more closely will be India - Australia, it’s one of SQ’s bread and butter markets, alongside TR, both carry significant traffic.

Will SQ let AI expand further in Australia beyond the current 2 routes? I think there’s a lot of potential for AI in Australia but they have been so slow to react and have only recently made both MEL and SYD daily.

kriskim wrote:

One market I’ll be looking more closely will be India - Australia, it’s one of SQ’s bread and butter markets, alongside TR, both carry significant traffic.

Will SQ let AI expand further in Australia beyond the current 2 routes? I think there’s a lot of potential for AI in Australia but they have been so slow to react and have only recently made both MEL and SYD daily.

Let? With a 25% stake I'm not sure they'll be in a position to let or not let .

kriskim wrote:

One market I’ll be looking more closely will be India - Australia, it’s one of SQ’s bread and butter markets, alongside TR, both carry significant traffic.

Will SQ let AI expand further in Australia beyond the current 2 routes? I think there’s a lot of potential for AI in Australia but they have been so slow to react and have only recently made both MEL and SYD daily.

Geographically, India is theoretically in the perfect location as a transit point/scissor hub between Australia and Europe breaking the journey into 2 10 hour flights. Unfortunately, until there is a clear improvement in AI's reputation for quality and service, it is unlikely this will be realised.

kriskim wrote:

One market I’ll be looking more closely will be India - Australia, it’s one of SQ’s bread and butter markets, alongside TR, both carry significant traffic.

Will SQ let AI expand further in Australia beyond the current 2 routes? I think there’s a lot of potential for AI in Australia but they have been so slow to react and have only recently made both MEL and SYD daily.

As posted by another poster, a 25% stake wouldn't be that influential

Any proposals or decisions for AI to expand into PER and/or BNE I suspect would at least be looked at prior to the merger. But IMO I'd put that in the same category as the 'Turkish Airlines to SYD' articles.

avier wrote:

Garuda200 wrote:

How can we be sure this isn't just the same Air India with a fresh coat of paint, a'la Alitalia

Alitalia-ITA still govt owned, Air India is privatised. Apples to oranges.

Oh yeah, Vistara-TATA privatised Air India forgot about that

subramak1 wrote:

The data points that exist dont support this view. Since Tata takeover, AI has been improving its reliability, on time performance etc. The interiors will get refurbished. The network is expanding from its Delhi Centricity with new flights to USA from BOM and BLR.

fortunerunnner wrote:

I'm pretty certain that in due course Air India will be a force to reckon with in Indian aviation market.

Question: There have been, for a literal generation, many many plans to make Air India a better, more profitable airline. They were done by smart, well-intentioned people (and some with approriate experience). They have *all* failed.

Why do you think Tata/Singapore will do better? What's the difference between this plan, and the many that have failed before. And do you see any evidence that Air India is moving towards greater profitabiity?

That the Indian air market has potential isn't really an answer. It's always had potential, yet many failures.

kitplane01 wrote:

Question: There have been, for a literal generation, many many plans to make Air India a better, more profitable airline. They were done by smart, well-intentioned people (and some with approriate experience). They have *all* failed.

Why do you think Tata/Singapore will do better? What's the difference between this plan, and the many that have failed before. And do you see any evidence that Air India is moving towards greater profitabiity?

That the Indian air market has potential isn't really an answer. It's always had potential, yet many failures.

Basic difference is, a private enterprise focused on making money and legendary customer service in hospitality industry is running the airline now. Earlier it was always at the mercy of interferences from Indian bureaucrats and Politicians. Tata didnt buy it because they had too much cash rotting in banks. They will run it as a business and in due course should see success.

For context just look at the turn around Tata Motors had in last couple of years in Indian market. Earlier no one was buying their cars as they had Taxi (hence downmarket) image associated with them. They still were able to put it behind and is having crazy year over year growth. Change is hard but if anyone can do it in context of AI it is Tata group or perhaps Ambani/Reliance had they tried to get into Airline business.

fortunerunnner wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

Question: There have been, for a literal generation, many many plans to make Air India a better, more profitable airline. They were done by smart, well-intentioned people (and some with approriate experience). They have *all* failed.

Why do you think Tata/Singapore will do better? What's the difference between this plan, and the many that have failed before. And do you see any evidence that Air India is moving towards greater profitabiity?

That the Indian air market has potential isn't really an answer. It's always had potential, yet many failures.

Basic difference is, a private enterprise focused on making money and legendary customer service in hospitality industry is running the airline now. Earlier it was always at the mercy of interferences from Indian bureaucrats and Politicians.

except that same private enterptise founded and operates Vistara which has never made a profit.

usflyer msp wrote:

except that same private enterptise founded and operates Vistara which has never made a profit.

Sure, they havent made it yet doesn’t mean they will never make it. Airline business is tough; can you share any newly started airline immediately turning profitable in any market let alone developing one like India. Curious to know how they compare against other airlines which were started at similar time. I haven’t looked it up but imagine there aren’t many.

fortunerunnner wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

except that same private enterptise founded and operates Vistara which has never made a profit.

Sure, they havent made it yet doesn’t mean they will never make it. Airline business is tough; can you share any newly started airline immediately turning profitable in any market let alone developing one like India. Curious to know how they compare against other airlines which were started at similar time. I haven’t looked it up but imagine there aren’t many.

Bro, it has been 8 years. They are well past start up phase.
Indigo and GoAir were profitable in their 3rd years and they didnt have the collapse of 9W helping them.


FWIW, Tata owned AirAsia India has never been profitable either.
I'm skeptical of this TATA and SQ business acumen that everyone keeps touting.