qf2220 wrote:

LTEN11 wrote:

RyanairGuru wrote:

I doubt that availability is a huge concern yet, as I doubt we will be seeing deliveries before 2026-2028. The oldest A333s will be around 25 years old and the oldest A332s around 20 years old (could be out by a year or two there).

On paper the 789 seems like the obvious replacement for the A332, with either the 78X or 359 as an A333 replacement. No doubt Qantas will play one against the other to get the best price.

The bigger question is what role an A330 sized aircraft would play in the future fleet. Having said that the 789 seems like the obvious A332 replacement on paper, I actually think the A321 could play a larger role in the future fleet. Qantas’ Asia network is smaller than it could be if they had a more dynamic fleet. Routes like MEL-CGK, PER-HKG, BNE-PVG might be viable with an A321 but would never be served by Qantas with an A330. Having to fill so many sears limits their ability to grow outside SYD and the main SIN/HKG/TYO trifecta ex-MEL/BNE.

There will definitely be a replacement in the 250-300 seat category, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they need 28 aircraft in that size just because that’s what they have at the moment.

The problem with sending a 321XLR to any cargo heavy airport like HKG and PVG is the near complete lack of any cargo carrying capability. If the market was there, QF would be better off sending a 330/787, carry 20 tonne of cargo and try and sell excess seats cheap. That would be a better use of a valuable slot, especially at those two ports.

QF will find a niche for the XLR, well actually they must have already, otherwise there would have been little point in ordering it, but I would highly doubt any port in China is on the list

For lots of those markets, is there any appreciable cargo volume that an XLR wont be able to lift? Given the density of the Asian networks, its pretty easy to get cargo around even if not on a direct routing (eg via SIA).

cougar15 wrote:

Old school stuff now, spent a lot of time in the freight industry (overseas) , never knew ECC was a BM. Tried Wiki, not much there, wow many of these did QF have, especially as she was RR powered? .

smi0006 wrote:

RyanairGuru wrote:

mrkerr7474 wrote:

It would make sense seeing more 789s or 350 to fit alongside 350K. I suppose aside from price it may come down to who could deliver them first more importantly

I doubt that availability is a huge concern yet, as I doubt we will be seeing deliveries before 2026-2028. The oldest A333s will be around 25 years old and the oldest A332s around 20 years old (could be out by a year or two there).

On paper the 789 seems like the obvious replacement for the A332, with either the 78X or 359 as an A333 replacement. No doubt Qantas will play one against the other to get the best price.

The bigger question is what role an A330 sized aircraft would play in the future fleet. Having said that the 789 seems like the obvious A332 replacement on paper, I actually think the A321 could play a larger role in the future fleet. Qantas’ Asia network is smaller than it could be if they had a more dynamic fleet. Routes like MEL-CGK, PER-HKG, BNE-PVG might be viable with an A321 but would never be served by Qantas with an A330. Having to fill so many sears limits their ability to grow outside SYD and the main SIN/HKG/TYO trifecta ex-MEL/BNE.

There will definitely be a replacement in the 250-300 seat category, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they need 28 aircraft in that size just because that’s what they have at the moment.

I think availability is a concern as I don’t see the new order being just for the 330s, but also for long haul expansion for which QF are critically short and unable to respond to competition. Not to mention upcoming Maintance. They don’t need to massively expand in the current economy, but they do need to keep up and ensure they stay relevant in the point to point market.

I think we are seeing all airlines move away from like for like replacements. More than likely 330 replacement will also compliment LH and ULH flying at the top end of capabilities, with 321 replacing the bottom end of Tasman/Domestic.

LTEN11 wrote:

qf2220 wrote:

LTEN11 wrote:

The problem with sending a 321XLR to any cargo heavy airport like HKG and PVG is the near complete lack of any cargo carrying capability. If the market was there, QF would be better off sending a 330/787, carry 20 tonne of cargo and try and sell excess seats cheap. That would be a better use of a valuable slot, especially at those two ports.

QF will find a niche for the XLR, well actually they must have already, otherwise there would have been little point in ordering it, but I would highly doubt any port in China is on the list

For lots of those markets, is there any appreciable cargo volume that an XLR wont be able to lift? Given the density of the Asian networks, its pretty easy to get cargo around even if not on a direct routing (eg via SIA).

QF would just love to stick their freight on SQ.

The problem with the XLR is that it loses cargo space for the extra fuel tank. Cargo space is limited on them as it is with the narrow hold and small containers being used. A full passenger load would leave little if any space for cargo.

ben175 wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Philippine Airlines to start 3 weekly MNL-PER from 27 March 23

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/phi ... s-in-2023/

I think this must be their third or fourth attempt at PER. They have previously operated 320s on PER-DRW-MNL.

EK413 wrote:

blrBird wrote:

EK413 wrote:

JQ’s latest toy -OFL enroute XFW-BLR

Flight JQ8992 from Hamburg to Bengaluru
https://fr24.com/JST8992/2e6f6302


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

From BLR where is this headed to PER/DRW or other?

PER & onto MEL.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

qf2220 wrote:

LTEN11 wrote:

qf2220 wrote:

For lots of those markets, is there any appreciable cargo volume that an XLR wont be able to lift? Given the density of the Asian networks, its pretty easy to get cargo around even if not on a direct routing (eg via SIA).

QF would just love to stick their freight on SQ.

The problem with the XLR is that it loses cargo space for the extra fuel tank. Cargo space is limited on them as it is with the narrow hold and small containers being used. A full passenger load would leave little if any space for cargo.

My question is if there is any real freight volume that QF already hauls? Or does it already travel with other carriers? So is the freight question relevant?

ZK-NBT wrote:

ArtV wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

Why couldn’t the Japan routes work with an A321LR ex CNS?

I would think the operating cost of an A321 is significantly lower than a 788 that operating a daily A321 with 20-30 blocked seats would be feasible over a 4-5 weekly 788.

JQ 321s have 220 seats in a 1 class config, versus 787 with 335 in a 2-class config. Assuming a 2-class A321 with blocked seats, you could be down to approx 170 revenue seats per flight. Even if the 321 has half the operating costs of a 787 (at half the capacity on this route), the 787 can also carry freight, which the 321 realistically can't here, which will be part of the economics.

How much freight is carried on Cairns-Japan? The A321LR is fairly capable around a 7.5hr flight CNS-NRT and within the planes operating range. There is more to it than that and it may depend on what happens to the 788 fleet?

travelsider05 wrote:

ben175 wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Philippine Airlines to start 3 weekly MNL-PER from 27 March 23

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/phi ... s-in-2023/

I think this must be their third or fourth attempt at PER. They have previously operated 320s on PER-DRW-MNL.

Should PR resume PER, this will be their second attempt at PER (IIRC, they planned to resume in 2014 with leased B752s). PER service ended several months after launch in 2013, while PR had three tries at BNE (1981-1998, 2010-2010, 2013-present).

qf2048 wrote:

Noticed the QF43/44 is being operated by a A332 again. Changed on 5th Dec. Hope it becomes a permanent fixture.

Also agree with of comments on QF A332, A333 replacement having W fitted. I personally would select it if available. HND and ICN is a long way in economy.

qf2048 wrote:

Noticed the QF43/44 is being operated by a A332 again. Changed on 5th Dec. Hope it becomes a permanent fixture.

Also agree with of comments on QF A332, A333 replacement having W fitted. I personally would select it if available. HND and ICN is a long way in economy.

RyanairGuru wrote:

qf2048 wrote:

Noticed the QF43/44 is being operated by a A332 again. Changed on 5th Dec. Hope it becomes a permanent fixture.

Also agree with of comments on QF A332, A333 replacement having W fitted. I personally would select it if available. HND and ICN is a long way in economy.

Can it be a permanent change? I’m quite confused about how the Indonesian seat allocation works, but given they just conceded the remaining allocation to VA I thought that Qantas wasn’t able to grow further?

QF43/44 is SYD-DPS for those, like me, who had to look that up.

LTEN11 wrote:

RyanairGuru wrote:

qf2048 wrote:

Noticed the QF43/44 is being operated by a A332 again. Changed on 5th Dec. Hope it becomes a permanent fixture.

Also agree with of comments on QF A332, A333 replacement having W fitted. I personally would select it if available. HND and ICN is a long way in economy.

Can it be a permanent change? I’m quite confused about how the Indonesian seat allocation works, but given they just conceded the remaining allocation to VA I thought that Qantas wasn’t able to grow further?

QF43/44 is SYD-DPS for those, like me, who had to look that up.

QF43/44 operates with a A332 from 5/12/22/ till 26/1/23.

QF43/44 was a SYD/AKL flight number for decades.

RyanairGuru wrote:

qf2048 wrote:

Noticed the QF43/44 is being operated by a A332 again. Changed on 5th Dec. Hope it becomes a permanent fixture.

Also agree with of comments on QF A332, A333 replacement having W fitted. I personally would select it if available. HND and ICN is a long way in economy.

Can it be a permanent change? I’m quite confused about how the Indonesian seat allocation works, but given they just conceded the remaining allocation to VA I thought that Qantas wasn’t able to grow further?

QF43/44 is SYD-DPS for those, like me, who had to look that up.

SCFlyer wrote:

JJWess wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Philippine Airlines to start 3 weekly MNL-PER from 27 March 23

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/phi ... s-in-2023/

Nice to see PER getting some love. I wonder if any EU carriers will ever make it there down the line... I know Virgin Atlantic flagged it in the past but I don't think any expansion west is on the horizon for them.

VS is effectively DL UK post-COVID with some South African and South American destinations, even more so since the remaining Asian markets that VS served pre-COVID has largely collapsed for them.

qf2048 wrote:

RyanairGuru wrote:

qf2048 wrote:

Noticed the QF43/44 is being operated by a A332 again. Changed on 5th Dec. Hope it becomes a permanent fixture.

Also agree with of comments on QF A332, A333 replacement having W fitted. I personally would select it if available. HND and ICN is a long way in economy.

Can it be a permanent change? I’m quite confused about how the Indonesian seat allocation works, but given they just conceded the remaining allocation to VA I thought that Qantas wasn’t able to grow further?

QF43/44 is SYD-DPS for those, like me, who had to look that up.

Some JQ DPS-BNE flights have been down gauged from B788 to A320 on some days. Can the Qantas Group move seat allocations around between the two airlines?

ArtV wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

Why couldn’t the Japan routes work with an A321LR ex CNS?

I would think the operating cost of an A321 is significantly lower than a 788 that operating a daily A321 with 20-30 blocked seats would be feasible over a 4-5 weekly 788.

JQ 321s have 220 seats in a 1 class config, versus 787 with 335 in a 2-class config. Assuming a 2-class A321 with blocked seats, you could be down to approx 170 revenue seats per flight. Even if the 321 has half the operating costs of a 787 (at half the capacity on this route), the 787 can also carry freight, which the 321 realistically can't here, which will be part of the economics.

Whatsaptudo wrote:

What I find interesting about this, is that Qantas has reduced JQ capacity to Bali, so QF can increase capacity. A strategy totally against the philosophy that created JQ in the first place.

Whatsaptudo wrote:

What I find interesting about this, is that Qantas has reduced JQ capacity to Bali, so QF can increase capacity. A strategy totally against the philosophy that created JQ in the first place.

tullamarine wrote:

qf2048 wrote:

RyanairGuru wrote:

Can it be a permanent change? I’m quite confused about how the Indonesian seat allocation works, but given they just conceded the remaining allocation to VA I thought that Qantas wasn’t able to grow further?

QF43/44 is SYD-DPS for those, like me, who had to look that up.

Some JQ DPS-BNE flights have been down gauged from B788 to A320 on some days. Can the Qantas Group move seat allocations around between the two airlines?

Yes, the IASC allocation for AU-Indonesia is to the Qantas Group so they can allocate between QF or JQ. As was pointed out, the QF Group allocation is maxxed out so, if they increase one service from 737 to A330, they have to downgrade elsewhere.

qf2220 wrote:

tullamarine wrote:

qf2048 wrote:

Some JQ DPS-BNE flights have been down gauged from B788 to A320 on some days. Can the Qantas Group move seat allocations around between the two airlines?

Yes, the IASC allocation for AU-Indonesia is to the Qantas Group so they can allocate between QF or JQ. As was pointed out, the QF Group allocation is maxxed out so, if they increase one service from 737 to A330, they have to downgrade elsewhere.

I think they could technically allocate to any airline in the group no? Though i very much doubt that Eastern Australian Airlines services to Bali are on the cards...

Qantas16 wrote:

NH will be increasing SYD to 9x per week from 25DEC with a new lunchtime departure. Will further increase to 10x weekly from late January and expected to be double daily by mid year.

Would this be the HND allocation they previously had for PER? Or do Japanese carriers still have more HND-Australia allocation available?

smi0006 wrote:

qf2220 wrote:

tullamarine wrote:

Yes, the IASC allocation for AU-Indonesia is to the Qantas Group so they can allocate between QF or JQ. As was pointed out, the QF Group allocation is maxxed out so, if they increase one service from 737 to A330, they have to downgrade elsewhere.

I think they could technically allocate to any airline in the group no? Though i very much doubt that Eastern Australian Airlines services to Bali are on the cards...

Sidenote on the QF group - I wonder randomly does QF still own the trademark to Australian Airlines? I loved their Ocher livery, with the soft lines, aboriginal print and kangaroo. Shame it only lasted for 4yrs.

qf2220 wrote:

LTEN11 wrote:

qf2220 wrote:

For lots of those markets, is there any appreciable cargo volume that an XLR wont be able to lift? Given the density of the Asian networks, its pretty easy to get cargo around even if not on a direct routing (eg via SIA).

QF would just love to stick their freight on SQ.

The problem with the XLR is that it loses cargo space for the extra fuel tank. Cargo space is limited on them as it is with the narrow hold and small containers being used. A full passenger load would leave little if any space for cargo.

My question is if there is any real freight volume that QF already hauls? Or does it already travel with other carriers? So is the freight question relevant?

Qantas16 wrote:

NH will be increasing SYD to 9x per week from 25DEC with a new lunchtime departure. Will further increase to 10x weekly from late January and expected to be double daily by mid year.

Would this be the HND allocation they previously had for PER? Or do Japanese carriers still have more HND-Australia allocation available?

log0008 wrote:

qf2220 wrote:

LTEN11 wrote:

QF would just love to stick their freight on SQ.

The problem with the XLR is that it loses cargo space for the extra fuel tank. Cargo space is limited on them as it is with the narrow hold and small containers being used. A full passenger load would leave little if any space for cargo.

My question is if there is any real freight volume that QF already hauls? Or does it already travel with other carriers? So is the freight question relevant?

As someone who has loaded QF SIN flights. The flights are almost always full of cargo. Both in tonnage and positions - there is more often than not more cargo than bags.

I have even known QF to route SIN bound cargo via Bali and JQ 787s

qf2220 wrote:

log0008 wrote:

qf2220 wrote:

My question is if there is any real freight volume that QF already hauls? Or does it already travel with other carriers? So is the freight question relevant?

As someone who has loaded QF SIN flights. The flights are almost always full of cargo. Both in tonnage and positions - there is more often than not more cargo than bags.

I have even known QF to route SIN bound cargo via Bali and JQ 787s

Interesting.

Tho another point with smaller aircraft that might be beneficial, adding service from place like ADL, CNS, PER to more places just opens up more direct freight potential and might smooth out the issues.

IDK, freight is a whole other creature, but it is a byproduct of the pax operation.

smi0006 wrote:

qf2220 wrote:

tullamarine wrote:

Yes, the IASC allocation for AU-Indonesia is to the Qantas Group so they can allocate between QF or JQ. As was pointed out, the QF Group allocation is maxxed out so, if they increase one service from 737 to A330, they have to downgrade elsewhere.

I think they could technically allocate to any airline in the group no? Though i very much doubt that Eastern Australian Airlines services to Bali are on the cards...

Sidenote on the QF group - I wonder randomly does QF still own the trademark to Australian Airlines? I loved their Ocher livery, with the soft lines, aboriginal print and kangaroo. Shame it only lasted for 4yrs.

qf2220 wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

qf2220 wrote:

I think they could technically allocate to any airline in the group no? Though i very much doubt that Eastern Australian Airlines services to Bali are on the cards...

Sidenote on the QF group - I wonder randomly does QF still own the trademark to Australian Airlines? I loved their Ocher livery, with the soft lines, aboriginal print and kangaroo. Shame it only lasted for 4yrs.

IP Australia says they own the IP over a number of Australian Airlines logos and names

https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/trade ... n+Airlines

(google IP Australia > Trademarks and follow the links to search if the link doesnt work)

log0008 wrote:

qf2220 wrote:

log0008 wrote:

As someone who has loaded QF SIN flights. The flights are almost always full of cargo. Both in tonnage and positions - there is more often than not more cargo than bags.

I have even known QF to route SIN bound cargo via Bali and JQ 787s

Interesting.

Tho another point with smaller aircraft that might be beneficial, adding service from place like ADL, CNS, PER to more places just opens up more direct freight potential and might smooth out the issues.

IDK, freight is a whole other creature, but it is a byproduct of the pax operation.

Belly-loaded freight on flights to major cargo ports like SIN, HKG is often the most profitable part of the operation. Airlines like QF don't just make money on the transport of the freight but also on the whole logistics operation and they handle their own cargo.

Any 321xlr flights to these ports will be from secondary cities (ADL for example) or for additional services. A premium heavy XLR doing MEL-SIN as an overnight flight to supplement their current midday departure from Melbourne for example.

Melbourne could benefit from the XLR, cities like MNL and CGK which are served from SYD with a 330 could likely be early contenders for Melbourne imo.

VirginFlyer wrote:

But this one isn’t:

V/F

Velocity7 wrote:

VirginFlyer wrote:

But this one isn’t:

V/F

I'd forgotten about this brand. I remember hopping on one of these from BNE-CNS. I don't know why but it was a QF flight and they must have subbed in an AO aircraft for whatever reason

Interesting how markets change. The 90's and early 2000's were so focused on inbound tourism from Japan, it was huge wasn't it. The likes of the Gold Coast and Cairns were so focused on the Japanese market - Japanese signage everywhere and tours really aimed at that market and it felt like it literally all disappeared within a very short period of time. Either our appeal waned or the Japanese market matured - probably a bit of both but it was such a big part of the tourism sector here for a decade. I remember JAL into BNE daily with 2 x 747's from both NRT and KIX plus AN and QF, now all gone sans QF.
I always cringe at the 'ocker-ness' we portray into markets. I feel it has limited shelf like yet it continues?

kriskim wrote:

Velocity7 wrote:

VirginFlyer wrote:

But this one isn’t:

V/F

I'd forgotten about this brand. I remember hopping on one of these from BNE-CNS. I don't know why but it was a QF flight and they must have subbed in an AO aircraft for whatever reason

Interesting how markets change. The 90's and early 2000's were so focused on inbound tourism from Japan, it was huge wasn't it. The likes of the Gold Coast and Cairns were so focused on the Japanese market - Japanese signage everywhere and tours really aimed at that market and it felt like it literally all disappeared within a very short period of time. Either our appeal waned or the Japanese market matured - probably a bit of both but it was such a big part of the tourism sector here for a decade. I remember JAL into BNE daily with 2 x 747's from both NRT and KIX plus AN and QF, now all gone sans QF.
I always cringe at the 'ocker-ness' we portray into markets. I feel it has limited shelf like yet it continues?

Wasn’t there a recession in Japan where mass tourism sort of ended overnight?

I think the market has diversified, there’s connections from SYD, MEL, BNE, PER, CNS and OOL. The market has grown in the past years pre-COVID and looks like it will continue to do so with more focus on outbound traffic compared to the 90’s and early 2000’s. For example, MEL has service from JL and QF now and these services are more premium heavy rather than focusing on tourists.

JJWess wrote:

I know this is strange to ask now… but happened to QF’s Syd-Delhi flights?
Also, does Mel-Delhi no longer stop in Adelaide..?

NZ516 wrote:

Qantas to resume Darwin to Singapore service using the Alliance 190s. Good to see them back on this route.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221211-qfjun23drwsin

smi0006 wrote:

NZ516 wrote:

Qantas to resume Darwin to Singapore service using the Alliance 190s. Good to see them back on this route.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221211-qfjun23drwsin

This route was served by Jetstar Asia until August 2022. Qantas last operated this route until October 2006

Interesting how versatile the 190 have been for QF - could a 717 have done this prior? I hope we see some more interesting routes with the 220 when they arrive, although I am a little skeptical. Was the route a 737 when QF last operated it?

Velocity7 wrote:

Interesting how markets change. The 90's and early 2000's were so focused on inbound tourism from Japan, it was huge wasn't it

jrfspa320 wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

NZ516 wrote:

Qantas to resume Darwin to Singapore service using the Alliance 190s. Good to see them back on this route.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221211-qfjun23drwsin

This route was served by Jetstar Asia until August 2022. Qantas last operated this route until October 2006

Interesting how versatile the 190 have been for QF - could a 717 have done this prior? I hope we see some more interesting routes with the 220 when they arrive, although I am a little skeptical. Was the route a 737 when QF last operated it?

717 wouldnt have had the range. When QF last operated it themselves i believe it was an A330. But more recently it has been a JQ/3K A320.

Goodbye wrote:

Velocity7 wrote:

Interesting how markets change. The 90's and early 2000's were so focused on inbound tourism from Japan, it was huge wasn't it

I remember flying to BNE-NRT on a JAL 747-200 back in 1999 - we even got upgraded into the business cabin (with economy service) as I guess business wasn't sold on these flights?

Great memories!

SCFlyer wrote:

Goodbye wrote:

Velocity7 wrote:

Interesting how markets change. The 90's and early 2000's were so focused on inbound tourism from Japan, it was huge wasn't it

I remember flying to BNE-NRT on a JAL 747-200 back in 1999 - we even got upgraded into the business cabin (with economy service) as I guess business wasn't sold on these flights?

Great memories!

I think the BNE/SYD-NRT flights on JL back in the late 90s/early 00s would've been on their JALWays subsidiary - basically the JL equivalent of QF'a AO (Australian Airlines) where it's basically a 'leisure carrier' and any Business 'recliner' cabins on their 742s were sold as (upgrades/flex/full cost) Y.