Welcome to the Australian Aviation Thread December 2022. Please continue your discussion and to post your news here.

Link to previous thread:

Australian Aviation Thread - November 2022

Sydscott wrote:

I disagree. The short haul on board experience in Australia is far superior in Business Class to any of the major European carriers. Australian Lounges are better, food is comparable and the seat is superior. However is it worth the large price discrepancy? No it is not. QF Is charging what it can get away with because no-one else is competing with them.

If you want an example of QF pricing power, I'm going to Taipei in April for a conference. China Airlines in Business class is about $4,400 return. The Qantas codeshare on the exact same China Airlines flight is a smidge over $6,000. Same plane, same service, same everything it's just that 1 is linked to Qantas and one is China Airlines directly. London in March is the same comparing the same apples to apples on Emirates. QF are pricing things at the moment as if Australians don't have a choice but to fly them.

Have to disagree with you on the experience being "far superior in Business Class to any of the major European carriers". Earlier this year, I flew from Sydney to Norfolk Island and back. On the way out, Qantas offered this -



And on the way back, this -



Now this is a flight of 1,680km or 1,044 miles. All well and good - you get one hot dish, a piece of bread and a Lindt chocolate, plus drinks of your choice. It's one course really, with a side of bread. Nothing wrong at all with the quality of the food either (though that Grant Burge sparkling is rot gut as far as fizz goes!).

Let's have a look at what is happening in Europe. SWISS on Zurich to Dublin, 1,240km or 771 miles. They are serving four courses, salad, a main, dessert and cheese, plus bread on the side. Also, they serve really nice French Champagne, Duval-Leroy.



What about British Airways? Surely they can't have better food than Qantas? Here's one from London Heathrow to Dublin, a mere 451km or 280 miles (shorter than Sydney to Melbourne, 706km or 439 miles).



I see a salad starter, a poke bowl for a main, dessert and bread. They also serve proper Champagne, Nicolas Feuillatte.

I'd have to say your conclusion that "food is comparable" is perhaps a little outdated. With regards to the lounges, while the F lounges are easily some of the best in the world, others are not. Some Qantas Clubs are good, some are awful. The domestic business lounges are quite good. The seat is also good, of course.

All the rest of your points about the pricing and Qantas charging a price premium are completely true and I agree. I pay a quarter to a third of the price for business class within Europe compared to when I'm in Australia and at the same time get a far better meal proposition on board. It's the things being put in front of your face that are very important, to me anyway. It's why I find Qantas domestic business to be woeful value. With what they charge, you'd expect at least multiple courses, even if it is on a single tray. SWISS and BA can do it and charge less (and Europe is hardly an inexpensive place), so it really illustrates what Qantas is getting away with.

HA announce HNL-RAR with a 321 -

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 90497.html[/quote]

Rumour this could be extended to SYD at some point, picking up NZ formerly underwritten routes. A 321 makes more sense than a 789 - but can it do RAR-SYD in HAs config?

ClassicLover wrote:

Sydscott wrote:

I disagree. The short haul on board experience in Australia is far superior in Business Class to any of the major European carriers. Australian Lounges are better, food is comparable and the seat is superior. However is it worth the large price discrepancy? No it is not. QF Is charging what it can get away with because no-one else is competing with them.

If you want an example of QF pricing power, I'm going to Taipei in April for a conference. China Airlines in Business class is about $4,400 return. The Qantas codeshare on the exact same China Airlines flight is a smidge over $6,000. Same plane, same service, same everything it's just that 1 is linked to Qantas and one is China Airlines directly. London in March is the same comparing the same apples to apples on Emirates. QF are pricing things at the moment as if Australians don't have a choice but to fly them.

Have to disagree with you on the experience being "far superior in Business Class to any of the major European carriers". Earlier this year, I flew from Sydney to Norfolk Island and back. On the way out, Qantas offered this -



And on the way back, this -



Now this is a flight of 1,680km or 1,044 miles. All well and good - you get one hot dish, a piece of bread and a Lindt chocolate, plus drinks of your choice. It's one course really, with a side of bread. Nothing wrong at all with the quality of the food either (though that Grant Burge sparkling is rot gut as far as fizz goes!).

Let's have a look at what is happening in Europe. SWISS on Zurich to Dublin, 1,240km or 771 miles. They are serving four courses, salad, a main, dessert and cheese, plus bread on the side. Also, they serve really nice French Champagne, Duval-Leroy.



What about British Airways? Surely they can't have better food than Qantas? Here's one from London Heathrow to Dublin, a mere 451km or 280 miles (shorter than Sydney to Melbourne, 706km or 439 miles).



I see a salad starter, a poke bowl for a main, dessert and bread. They also serve proper Champagne, Nicolas Feuillatte.

I'd have to say your conclusion that "food is comparable" is perhaps a little outdated. With regards to the lounges, while the F lounges are easily some of the best in the world, others are not. Some Qantas Clubs are good, some are awful. The domestic business lounges are quite good. The seat is also good, of course.

All the rest of your points about the pricing and Qantas charging a price premium are completely true and I agree. I pay a quarter to a third of the price for business class within Europe compared to when I'm in Australia and at the same time get a far better meal proposition on board. It's the things being put in front of your face that are very important, to me anyway. It's why I find Qantas domestic business to be woeful value. With what they charge, you'd expect at least multiple courses, even if it is on a single tray. SWISS and BA can do it and charge less (and Europe is hardly an inexpensive place), so it really illustrates what Qantas is getting away with.

I've done 6 intra-Europe trips this year. LCY-DUB, DUB- FCO, ZRH-FCO, FCO-MUN, FRA-BER and BER-FRA covering BA, EI, LX and LH. So alot of short flights and 1 longer one.

LCY-DUB they served breakfast. The English do a good breakfast and it was comparable to the QF Domestic breakfast service you get in J on a SYD-MEL flight.

DUB-FCO was lunch while ZRH-FCO, FCO-MUN, FRA-BER and BER-FRA were all breakfast flights. Again the service was quick and efficient and the food nice. But it was comparable to what you get on SYD-MEL in J class. I don't get on a shortfaul flight expecting gastromic excellence at breakfast time and the food was all decent, if fairly indistinguishable from each other aside from the BA one.

But again, is it worth the price of admission to QF to get comparable food? No it isn't and I think we all agree on that. While I respect QF's right to make $$$, their prices for what you get are extortionate right now. But that's what the market is allowing them to do.

I spend a few days in FNQ and waiting for my VA flight departing CNS on Monday I was wondering, is CNS the biggest port for VA now without a lounge? I counted 10 departures that day (BNE 5, SYD 3, MEL 2) which seems pretty typical, probably a few additional ones during winter peak and on long weekends.

Now the crowd on my mid-morning departure to SYD was low on status holders - very few using priority lane, mainly tourists as you would expect including a large German tour group. So I get it.

HBA would probably have a similar amount of flights, but more status holders?

Unrelated, I also noticed QF have reinstated their AYQ-CNS flight (or was it a one-off on Sunday?) which surely wouldn’t have run throughout the pandemic given the lack of foreign tourists? Couldn’t find anything online announcing it.

A350OZ wrote:

I spend a few days in FNQ and waiting for my VA flight departing CNS on Monday I was wondering, is CNS the biggest port for VA now without a lounge? I counted 10 departures that day (BNE 5, SYD 3, MEL 2) which seems pretty typical, probably a few additional ones during winter peak and on long weekends.

Now the crowd on my mid-morning departure to SYD was low on status holders - very few using priority lane, mainly tourists as you would expect including a large German tour group. So I get it.

HBA would probably have a similar amount of flights, but more status holders?

Unrelated, I also noticed QF have reinstated their AYQ-CNS flight (or was it a one-off on Sunday?) which surely wouldn’t have run throughout the pandemic given the lack of foreign tourists? Couldn’t find anything online announcing it.

HBA is probably just a little busier for VA but it would be close and CNS would definitely be busier over the weekends.

VA has tried for a lounge in HBA in the past but the airport owners couldn't make any space available.

Of course, VA did have a lounge in CNS but closed it during the administration process. I assume the space is still vacant where it was though either VA aren't interested in ever reopening the lounge there or the two parties can't agree on the price. You'd think that if VA aren't interested, the airport owners would be approaching someone like Plaza Premium to open a pay-for-use facility in the space.

Sydscott wrote:

If you want an example of QF pricing power, I'm going to Taipei in April for a conference. China Airlines in Business class is about $4,400 return. The Qantas codeshare on the exact same China Airlines flight is a smidge over $6,000. Same plane, same service, same everything it's just that 1 is linked to Qantas and one is China Airlines directly. London in March is the same comparing the same apples to apples on Emirates. QF are pricing things at the moment as if Australians don't have a choice but to fly them.

I'm not sure one can draw any inference on codeshare pricing. We have no idea what the codesharing relationship between CI and QF is and what capacity CI provide to Qantas at what price. Just because CI offer that ticket for $4,400 return it does not imply that QF are given availability to that stock. It's not a JV/JBA where there is a metal neutral arrangement with coordinated access to each other's ticket stock like QF-EK.

anstar wrote:

I believe the 2 airline strategy was even before Joyce when Dixon was in charge.

Dixon was CEO when JQ was established. Joyce was head of network planning and strategy at QF at the time and was the key driver of the strategy which was initially targeted at segmenting lower yield traffic and routes into a lower cost structure. He moved over to JQ to run the project specifically to drive it in this direction, the success of which almost ensured that he would succeed Dixon at the group level.

One of Joyce's best skills is that he is equally adept at the big picture group level strategy and financial management, as well as the operational details. He's as comfortable working with sales and marketing one day, technically and operationally strong that allows him to work at a very detailed level in fleet and network planning, financially adept at revenue management and group level finance. There are not many airline CEOs that really have that breath and grasp for the entire business.

evanb wrote:

anstar wrote:

I believe the 2 airline strategy was even before Joyce when Dixon was in charge.

Dixon was CEO when JQ was established. Joyce was head of network planning and strategy at QF at the time and was the key driver of the strategy which was initially targeted at segmenting lower yield traffic and routes into a lower cost structure. He moved over to JQ to run the project specifically to drive it in this direction, the success of which almost ensured that he would succeed Dixon at the group level.

One of Joyce's best skills is that he is equally adept at the big picture group level strategy and financial management, as well as the operational details. He's as comfortable working with sales and marketing one day, technically and operationally strong that allows him to work at a very detailed level in fleet and network planning, financially adept at revenue management and group level finance. There are not many airline CEOs that really have that breath and grasp for the entire business.

Any negatives or not allowed to be discussed at the AJ Fan Club meetings?

Qantas' long awaited BNE-HND flight is commencing today, operating 3x weekly with an A330.

smi0006 wrote:

HA announce HNL-RAR with a 321 -

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 90497.html

Rumour this could be extended to SYD at some point, picking up NZ formerly underwritten routes. A 321 makes more sense than a 789 - but can it do RAR-SYD in HAs config?[/quote]

Correction to rumour - sounds like JQ may fly it. Makes sense with the LRs.

Updated - not a rumour, 2 weekly with 321LR
https://www.miragenews.com/jetstar-to-t ... ds-906683/

smi0006 wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

HA announce HNL-RAR with a 321 -

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 90497.html

Rumour this could be extended to SYD at some point, picking up NZ formerly underwritten routes. A 321 makes more sense than a 789 - but can it do RAR-SYD in HAs config?

Correction to rumour - sounds like JQ may fly it. Makes sense with the LRs.

Updated - not a rumour, 2 weekly with 321LR
https://www.miragenews.com/jetstar-to-t ... ds-906683/[/quote]

Interesting, seems a route where the LR makes sense.

evanb wrote:

Sydscott wrote:

If you want an example of QF pricing power, I'm going to Taipei in April for a conference. China Airlines in Business class is about $4,400 return. The Qantas codeshare on the exact same China Airlines flight is a smidge over $6,000. Same plane, same service, same everything it's just that 1 is linked to Qantas and one is China Airlines directly. London in March is the same comparing the same apples to apples on Emirates. QF are pricing things at the moment as if Australians don't have a choice but to fly them.

I'm not sure one can draw any inference on codeshare pricing. We have no idea what the codesharing relationship between CI and QF is and what capacity CI provide to Qantas at what price. Just because CI offer that ticket for $4,400 return it does not imply that QF are given availability to that stock. It's not a JV/JBA where there is a metal neutral arrangement with coordinated access to each other's ticket stock like QF-EK.

I encourage you to run your own examples then and have a look then if you agree. that is but one of a few examples I found when looking at pricing for trips next year.

tullamarine wrote:

evanb wrote:
anstar wrote:
I believe the 2 airline strategy was even before Joyce when Dixon was in charge.


Dixon was CEO when JQ was established. Joyce was head of network planning and strategy at QF at the time and was the key driver of the strategy which was initially targeted at segmenting lower yield traffic and routes into a lower cost structure. He moved over to JQ to run the project specifically to drive it in this direction, the success of which almost ensured that he would succeed Dixon at the group level.

One of Joyce's best skills is that he is equally adept at the big picture group level strategy and financial management, as well as the operational details. He's as comfortable working with sales and marketing one day, technically and operationally strong that allows him to work at a very detailed level in fleet and network planning, financially adept at revenue management and group level finance. There are not many airline CEOs that really have that breath and grasp for the entire business.

Any negatives or not allowed to be discussed at the AJ Fan Club meetings?

LOL

A350OZ wrote:

Unrelated, I also noticed QF have reinstated their AYQ-CNS flight (or was it a one-off on Sunday?) which surely wouldn’t have run throughout the pandemic given the lack of foreign tourists? Couldn’t find anything online announcing it.

Three days a week ops on WED/FRI/SUN only in both directions, WED OPS on the F100, FRI/SUN on the 73H. From 01MAR23 all thrice weekly ops by 73H.

ZK-NBT wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

HA announce HNL-RAR with a 321 -

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 90497.html

Rumour this could be extended to SYD at some point, picking up NZ formerly underwritten routes. A 321 makes more sense than a 789 - but can it do RAR-SYD in HAs config?

Correction to rumour - sounds like JQ may fly it. Makes sense with the LRs.

Updated - not a rumour, 2 weekly with 321LR
https://www.miragenews.com/jetstar-to-t ... ds-906683/

ZK-NBT wrote:

Interesting, seems a route where the LR makes sense.

The link mentions an existing JQ route to RAR, but not where from. That would be AKL I assume?

Hopefully we see the LR deployed all over the South Pacific. More direct access to / from Australia can only be a good thing for the island nations. And this year's RLWC has likely given them more (free) publicity than their regular tourism campaigns.

Thatcher wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

Rumour this could be extended to SYD at some point, picking up NZ formerly underwritten routes. A 321 makes more sense than a 789 - but can it do RAR-SYD in HAs config?

Correction to rumour - sounds like JQ may fly it. Makes sense with the LRs.

Updated - not a rumour, 2 weekly with 321LR
https://www.miragenews.com/jetstar-to-t ... ds-906683/

ZK-NBT wrote:

Interesting, seems a route where the LR makes sense.

The link mentions an existing JQ route to RAR, but not where from. That would be AKL I assume?

Hopefully we see the LR deployed all over the South Pacific. More direct access to / from Australia can only be a good thing for the island nations. And this year's RLWC has likely given them more (free) publicity than their regular tourism campaigns.

Yes AKL-RAR is operated several times a week.

Not sure if it was mentioned in earlier threads, as I have been travelling and only sporadically following a.net. But a recent TK investor update reaffirmed SYD as being on their to-do list. Along with many other destinations, so may not mean a lot.
https://investor.turkishairlines.com/documents/presentations/tk-2022-ndr-presentation_vf1.pdf

I have travelled thru IST twice recently - it looks huge from my passenger perspective and seems to be still under construction, earthworks going on that may be an additional runway. They / TK have a lot of capacity to fill.

Thatcher wrote:

Not sure if it was mentioned in earlier threads, as I have been travelling and only sporadically following a.net. But a recent TK investor update reaffirmed SYD as being on their to-do list. Along with many other destinations, so may not mean a lot.
https://investor.turkishairlines.com/documents/presentations/tk-2022-ndr-presentation_vf1.pdf

I have travelled thru IST twice recently - it looks huge from my passenger perspective and seems to be still under construction, earthworks going on that may be an additional runway. They / TK have a lot of capacity to fill.

TK 'reaffirms' their intentions every few years via investor presentations. Once it comes from somewhere else, or actual plans are being made, I might start believing it will happen. Though in the interest of discussion, IST-MEL is only 72nmi longer than PER-LHR, so it might be possible with a load restricted B787-9 or A350. TK isn't against the idea of load restrictions, as they do (at least used to) restrict loads on some of their longest African B737-900ER routes, but I'm not sure about TK's stance on restricting loads on ultra long haul flights just to make a route work. Would be nice to see them in Australia though.

tullamarine wrote:

A350OZ wrote:

I spend a few days in FNQ and waiting for my VA flight departing CNS on Monday I was wondering, is CNS the biggest port for VA now without a lounge? I counted 10 departures that day (BNE 5, SYD 3, MEL 2) which seems pretty typical, probably a few additional ones during winter peak and on long weekends.

Now the crowd on my mid-morning departure to SYD was low on status holders - very few using priority lane, mainly tourists as you would expect including a large German tour group. So I get it.

HBA would probably have a similar amount of flights, but more status holders?

Unrelated, I also noticed QF have reinstated their AYQ-CNS flight (or was it a one-off on Sunday?) which surely wouldn’t have run throughout the pandemic given the lack of foreign tourists? Couldn’t find anything online announcing it.

HBA is probably just a little busier for VA but it would be close and CNS would definitely be busier over the weekends.

VA has tried for a lounge in HBA in the past but the airport owners couldn't make any space available.

Of course, VA did have a lounge in CNS but closed it during the administration process. I assume the space is still vacant where it was though either VA aren't interested in ever reopening the lounge there or the two parties can't agree on the price. You'd think that if VA aren't interested, the airport owners would be approaching someone like Plaza Premium to open a pay-for-use facility in the space.

Last year when I was up there the VA lounge sign down the corridor past the QF Club was still up, this time the VA branding had been taken off and not sure what happened to the space as the corridor was cordoned off (probably still untouched and very dusty).

I have thought about pay-for-use but for domestic it would be a difficult proposition for any operator with the existing QF lounges and remaining VA ones. Maybe if they could get someone like Rex to send pax their way, but otherwise?

Sydscott wrote:

I encourage you to run your own examples then and have a look then if you agree. that is but one of a few examples I found when looking at pricing for trips next year.?

Sure, it's my day job - I run, among other things, revenue management models for airlines to/from Australia.

A350OZ wrote:

tullamarine wrote:

A350OZ wrote:

I spend a few days in FNQ and waiting for my VA flight departing CNS on Monday I was wondering, is CNS the biggest port for VA now without a lounge? I counted 10 departures that day (BNE 5, SYD 3, MEL 2) which seems pretty typical, probably a few additional ones during winter peak and on long weekends.

Now the crowd on my mid-morning departure to SYD was low on status holders - very few using priority lane, mainly tourists as you would expect including a large German tour group. So I get it.

HBA would probably have a similar amount of flights, but more status holders?

Unrelated, I also noticed QF have reinstated their AYQ-CNS flight (or was it a one-off on Sunday?) which surely wouldn’t have run throughout the pandemic given the lack of foreign tourists? Couldn’t find anything online announcing it.

HBA is probably just a little busier for VA but it would be close and CNS would definitely be busier over the weekends.

VA has tried for a lounge in HBA in the past but the airport owners couldn't make any space available.

Of course, VA did have a lounge in CNS but closed it during the administration process. I assume the space is still vacant where it was though either VA aren't interested in ever reopening the lounge there or the two parties can't agree on the price. You'd think that if VA aren't interested, the airport owners would be approaching someone like Plaza Premium to open a pay-for-use facility in the space.

Last year when I was up there the VA lounge sign down the corridor past the QF Club was still up, this time the VA branding had been taken off and not sure what happened to the space as the corridor was cordoned off (probably still untouched and very dusty).

I have thought about pay-for-use but for domestic it would be a difficult proposition for any operator with the existing QF lounges and remaining VA ones. Maybe if they could get someone like Rex to send pax their way, but otherwise?

The issue with these lounges in lesser ports like CNS is there are parts of the day where you can have 2-3 hours with no flights so staffing becomes a costly problem. A pay lounge operator could, in theory have an arrangement on a user basis with VA as well as charging for other passengers to enter lounge meaning its use over the day would be better so the economics improved. It would be very similar to how outfits like Plaza Premium run their international lounges with a combination of airline contracts and individual walk-ups. Who knows if it actually makes economic sense but it is just an idea I had.

It looks like the TWU is planning to test the new multi-employer bargaining laws against Qantas as part of the long running ground handling dispute https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/11/twu-to-use-multi-employer-bargaining-for-outsourced-qantas-workers/

It will be interesting to see where this ends up. QF used the Howard era Workchoices rules to assist in driving down costs and remove legacy agreements partly through the creation of many worker groups within effective labour hire companies established as QF subsidiaries. If multi-employer bargaining takes hold, the efficacy of doing this going forward may be massively diminished with all of QF including JQ being grouped together, if the workers in each company agree, when it comes to creating a workplace agreement.

QF has already threatened domestic cabin crew that it will contract elsewhere for the A321s if the current workforce doesn't agree to the proposed Enterprise Agreement. The passage of the new IR laws makes such a tactic much harder than it has been for the past 15 years or so.

To the question in the previous month's forum re Nauru Airlines BNE to PHE, it was a mines charter.. my old man was on it.
They usually use QF, but i'd say they have no spare aircraft at the moment.

A350OZ wrote:

I spend a few days in FNQ and waiting for my VA flight departing CNS on Monday I was wondering, is CNS the biggest port for VA now without a lounge? I counted 10 departures that day (BNE 5, SYD 3, MEL 2) which seems pretty typical, probably a few additional ones during winter peak and on long weekends.

Now the crowd on my mid-morning departure to SYD was low on status holders - very few using priority lane, mainly tourists as you would expect including a large German tour group. So I get it.

HBA would probably have a similar amount of flights, but more status holders?

Unrelated, I also noticed QF have reinstated their AYQ-CNS flight (or was it a one-off on Sunday?) which surely wouldn’t have run throughout the pandemic given the lack of foreign tourists? Couldn’t find anything online announcing it.

The CNS lounge was the nicest in the VA network IMO. Great tarmac views, food was good and the staff always very pleasant. On the many occasions I visited it was always pretty busy too. Shame the axe fell on it. On the other hand, the main terminal / food court inside CNS is a stark contrast - badly designed for the flow of people, poorly ventilated and the atmosphere of a bus stop!

tullamarine wrote:

evanb wrote:

anstar wrote:

I believe the 2 airline strategy was even before Joyce when Dixon was in charge.

Dixon was CEO when JQ was established. Joyce was head of network planning and strategy at QF at the time and was the key driver of the strategy which was initially targeted at segmenting lower yield traffic and routes into a lower cost structure. He moved over to JQ to run the project specifically to drive it in this direction, the success of which almost ensured that he would succeed Dixon at the group level.

One of Joyce's best skills is that he is equally adept at the big picture group level strategy and financial management, as well as the operational details. He's as comfortable working with sales and marketing one day, technically and operationally strong that allows him to work at a very detailed level in fleet and network planning, financially adept at revenue management and group level finance. There are not many airline CEOs that really have that breath and grasp for the entire business.

Any negatives or not allowed to be discussed at the AJ Fan Club meetings?

The negatives for AJ involve people skills. He’s a great financial and operational manager but his tenure has had icy relations between management and staff for pretty much his whole duration. Then there’s customer service which is arguably not what it used to be in QF mainline and not what it could/should be in both mainline and JQ. John Borghetti was the big customer service guy and I feel like since he left it hasn’t had the same focus in upper management. Do they still have the cabin crew service excellence centre that existed in the late 2000s?

evanb wrote:

One of Joyce's best skills is that he is equally adept at the big picture group level strategy and financial management, as well as the operational details. He's as comfortable working with sales and marketing one day, technically and operationally strong that allows him to work at a very detailed level in fleet and network planning, financially adept at revenue management and group level finance. There are not many airline CEOs that really have that breath and grasp for the entire business.

Maybe in the past hsi pencil was sharper but its certainly blunt in recent times. He has seemed a little out of touch and at times felt liek those below were fudging stats to keep him happy. I mean the call centres are a great example. Blame your customers for calling when they should do things online, yet the online functions are not capable of fulfilling simple requests driving volumes to the call centres.

Qantas has given up and finally accepted that Jetstar will move to T4 at Changi from 22 March 2023. This is both for Jetstar Asia 3K and Jetstar’s JQ 787 flights to MEL. As well as the loss of simple connections between QF and 3K flights, this change will mean no Jetstar passengers will have lounge access. There is a possibility that pax travelling on a QF codeshare may be able to get into the CX Lounge in T4 but I wouldn’t guarantee it.

anstar wrote:

evanb wrote:

One of Joyce's best skills is that he is equally adept at the big picture group level strategy and financial management, as well as the operational details. He's as comfortable working with sales and marketing one day, technically and operationally strong that allows him to work at a very detailed level in fleet and network planning, financially adept at revenue management and group level finance. There are not many airline CEOs that really have that breath and grasp for the entire business.

Maybe in the past hsi pencil was sharper but its certainly blunt in recent times. He has seemed a little out of touch and at times felt liek those below were fudging stats to keep him happy. I mean the call centres are a great example. Blame your customers for calling when they should do things online, yet the online functions are not capable of fulfilling simple requests driving volumes to the call centres.

He is a bean counter at heart which has worked in many ways but it has certainly taken its toll on service excellence as well as staff morale. It does present an interesting challenge to the Board as they look for a replacement for Joyce in the next year or so.

The members of the CXO team who would challenge Joyce’s view of the world have long since given up and moved onto other challenges outside QF. Those that remain are very much Joyce acolytes and are probably incapable of injecting a new view of the world into Qantas. This means the Board will probably have to look externally as, either by design or botched management, the internal succession process is unlikely to be the renewing experience any business needs after having the same leader for such a long time.

ZK-NBT wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

HA announce HNL-RAR with a 321 -

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 90497.html

Rumour this could be extended to SYD at some point, picking up NZ formerly underwritten routes. A 321 makes more sense than a 789 - but can it do RAR-SYD in HAs config?

Correction to rumour - sounds like JQ may fly it. Makes sense with the LRs.

Updated - not a rumour, 2 weekly with 321LR
https://www.miragenews.com/jetstar-to-t ... ds-906683/

Interesting, seems a route where the LR makes sense.[/quote]

And apparently, NZ’s returning to the route too - 1 weekly 787-9 effective March 2023

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221201-nzns23rar

tullamarine wrote:

It looks like the TWU is planning to test the new multi-employer bargaining laws against Qantas as part of the long running ground handling dispute https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/11/twu-to-use-multi-employer-bargaining-for-outsourced-qantas-workers/

It will be interesting to see where this ends up. QF used the Howard era Workchoices rules to assist in driving down costs and remove legacy agreements partly through the creation of many worker groups within effective labour hire companies established as QF subsidiaries. If multi-employer bargaining takes hold, the efficacy of doing this going forward may be massively diminished with all of QF including JQ being grouped together, if the workers in each company agree, when it comes to creating a workplace agreement.

QF has already threatened domestic cabin crew that it will contract elsewhere for the A321s if the current workforce doesn't agree to the proposed Enterprise Agreement. The passage of the new IR laws makes such a tactic much harder than it has been for the past 15 years or so.

I would put money on this happening.

redroo wrote:

tullamarine wrote:

It looks like the TWU is planning to test the new multi-employer bargaining laws against Qantas as part of the long running ground handling dispute https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/11/twu-to-use-multi-employer-bargaining-for-outsourced-qantas-workers/

It will be interesting to see where this ends up. QF used the Howard era Workchoices rules to assist in driving down costs and remove legacy agreements partly through the creation of many worker groups within effective labour hire companies established as QF subsidiaries. If multi-employer bargaining takes hold, the efficacy of doing this going forward may be massively diminished with all of QF including JQ being grouped together, if the workers in each company agree, when it comes to creating a workplace agreement.

QF has already threatened domestic cabin crew that it will contract elsewhere for the A321s if the current workforce doesn't agree to the proposed Enterprise Agreement. The passage of the new IR laws makes such a tactic much harder than it has been for the past 15 years or so.

I would put money on this happening.

In this environment where all industries are screaming for staff, I don't understand understand how this can be successful for the domestic crews even without the new IR laws.

ABpositive wrote:

redroo wrote:

tullamarine wrote:

It looks like the TWU is planning to test the new multi-employer bargaining laws against Qantas as part of the long running ground handling dispute https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/11/twu-to-use-multi-employer-bargaining-for-outsourced-qantas-workers/

It will be interesting to see where this ends up. QF used the Howard era Workchoices rules to assist in driving down costs and remove legacy agreements partly through the creation of many worker groups within effective labour hire companies established as QF subsidiaries. If multi-employer bargaining takes hold, the efficacy of doing this going forward may be massively diminished with all of QF including JQ being grouped together, if the workers in each company agree, when it comes to creating a workplace agreement.

QF has already threatened domestic cabin crew that it will contract elsewhere for the A321s if the current workforce doesn't agree to the proposed Enterprise Agreement. The passage of the new IR laws makes such a tactic much harder than it has been for the past 15 years or so.

I would put money on this happening.

In this environment where all industries are screaming for staff, I don't understand understand how this can be successful for the domestic crews even without the new IR laws.

Exactly. You can’t reduce pay and conditions during a labour shortage and expect to fill vacant positions. Supply and demand says that remuneration should be going up, not down.

Seems to be a confluence of a few rumours that we might see a QF PER-BCN seasonal flight next year.

Pm3207 wrote:

Seems to be a confluence of a few rumours that we might see a QF PER-BCN seasonal flight next year.

With what aircraft are they planning....ie there are not enough as it is, so something will have to be given up to achieve this.

ArtV wrote:

Pm3207 wrote:

Seems to be a confluence of a few rumours that we might see a QF PER-BCN seasonal flight next year.

With what aircraft are they planning....ie there are not enough as it is, so something will have to be given up to achieve this.

Agreed, just look at the 787 schedule currently, over extended and reliability has gone completely as soon as an aircraft goes tech

Christmas will be interesting!

ArtV wrote:

Pm3207 wrote:

Seems to be a confluence of a few rumours that we might see a QF PER-BCN seasonal flight next year.

With what aircraft are they planning....ie there are not enough as it is, so something will have to be given up to achieve this.

I was surprised CDG didn’t have more potential than FCO, I’d still have thought CDG over BCN. But I can’t see anymore PER flying until they have the frames. Would have thought SFO would take priority over PER-EU too.

smi0006 wrote:

ArtV wrote:

Pm3207 wrote:

Seems to be a confluence of a few rumours that we might see a QF PER-BCN seasonal flight next year.

With what aircraft are they planning....ie there are not enough as it is, so something will have to be given up to achieve this.

I was surprised CDG didn’t have more potential than FCO, I’d still have thought CDG over BCN. But I can’t see anymore PER flying until they have the frames. Would have thought SFO would take priority over PER-EU too.

Well at least SYD-SFO from April 2023. MEL and BNE to SFO has been deferred for the foreseeable future, QF might see MEL-SFO in late 2023 at the earliest, but can't see QF returning on BNE-SFO for the foreseeable future.

smi0006 wrote:

ArtV wrote:

Pm3207 wrote:

Seems to be a confluence of a few rumours that we might see a QF PER-BCN seasonal flight next year.

With what aircraft are they planning....ie there are not enough as it is, so something will have to be given up to achieve this.

I was surprised CDG didn’t have more potential than FCO, I’d still have thought CDG over BCN. But I can’t see anymore PER flying until they have the frames. Would have thought SFO would take priority over PER-EU too.

Totally agree with all these thoughts/sentiments. BCN does seem an interesting choice if true, but nonetheless the rumours exist.

SCFlyer wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

ArtV wrote:

With what aircraft are they planning....ie there are not enough as it is, so something will have to be given up to achieve this.

I was surprised CDG didn’t have more potential than FCO, I’d still have thought CDG over BCN. But I can’t see anymore PER flying until they have the frames. Would have thought SFO would take priority over PER-EU too.

Well at least SYD-SFO from April 2023. MEL and BNE to SFO has been deferred for the foreseeable future, QF might see MEL-SFO in late 2023 at the earliest, but can't see QF returning on BNE-SFO for the foreseeable future.

SFO has already been deferred several times, I feel like it’s too soon to say it’s definitely coming back in April.

BNE-SFO seems more probable than MEL-SFO to me, as it can be flown with an A330. I doubt we will see MEL-SFO for years, there just aren’t enough 787s to go around. MEL-SFO is almost certainly a more lucrative market, but the long haul fleet is so stretched right now that Qantas will have to make do with what they’ve got. BNE is well positioned for domestic connections from the whole of Australia to the USA, so it wouldn’t be an O&D-only market, like the proposed but never launch BNE-ORD.

RyanairGuru wrote:

SCFlyer wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

I was surprised CDG didn’t have more potential than FCO, I’d still have thought CDG over BCN. But I can’t see anymore PER flying until they have the frames. Would have thought SFO would take priority over PER-EU too.

Well at least SYD-SFO from April 2023. MEL and BNE to SFO has been deferred for the foreseeable future, QF might see MEL-SFO in late 2023 at the earliest, but can't see QF returning on BNE-SFO for the foreseeable future.

SFO has already been deferred several times, I feel like it’s too soon to say it’s definitely coming back in April.

BNE-SFO seems more probable than MEL-SFO to me, as it can be flown with an A330. I doubt we will see MEL-SFO for years, there just aren’t enough 787s to go around. MEL-SFO is almost certainly a more lucrative market, but the long haul fleet is so stretched right now that Qantas will have to make do with what they’ve got. BNE is well positioned for domestic connections from the whole of Australia to the USA, so it wouldn’t be an O&D-only market, like the proposed but never launch BNE-ORD.

Having just returned from the USA I can say that the FX rate is a killer atm. Great for inbound, but horrendous for us outbound. Won’t stop some people though.

RyanairGuru wrote:

SCFlyer wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

I was surprised CDG didn’t have more potential than FCO, I’d still have thought CDG over BCN. But I can’t see anymore PER flying until they have the frames. Would have thought SFO would take priority over PER-EU too.

Well at least SYD-SFO from April 2023. MEL and BNE to SFO has been deferred for the foreseeable future, QF might see MEL-SFO in late 2023 at the earliest, but can't see QF returning on BNE-SFO for the foreseeable future.

SFO has already been deferred several times, I feel like it’s too soon to say it’s definitely coming back in April.

BNE-SFO seems more probable than MEL-SFO to me, as it can be flown with an A330. I doubt we will see MEL-SFO for years, there just aren’t enough 787s to go around. MEL-SFO is almost certainly a more lucrative market, but the long haul fleet is so stretched right now that Qantas will have to make do with what they’ve got. BNE is well positioned for domestic connections from the whole of Australia to the USA, so it wouldn’t be an O&D-only market, like the proposed but never launch BNE-ORD.

I suspect not enough A330s around for BNE-SFO as more likely the A330s may be better utilised elsewhere, especially if QF have NSW AAIF support for the SYD-India flights.
In addition, QF would have to compete against the Qld AAIF-supported BNE-SFO from UA and any spare A330 aircraft might be better utilised making BNE-LAX 10x weekly full time rather than the seasonal increase.

https://vt.tiktok.com/ZS8RVDS62/
Qantas new baggage handlers !!!!

SCFlyer wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

ArtV wrote:

With what aircraft are they planning....ie there are not enough as it is, so something will have to be given up to achieve this.

I was surprised CDG didn’t have more potential than FCO, I’d still have thought CDG over BCN. But I can’t see anymore PER flying until they have the frames. Would have thought SFO would take priority over PER-EU too.

Well at least SYD-SFO from April 2023. MEL and BNE to SFO has been deferred for the foreseeable future, QF might see MEL-SFO in late 2023 at the earliest, but can't see QF returning on BNE-SFO for the foreseeable future.

I mean if QF swapped MEL-SFO for MEL-DFW, then I ain’t complaining!

UA will operate MEL-SFO daily year round now, QF can supplement, however I think SFO is well served for the time being. QF can focus on building LAX back up and cementing their new DFW service. Either way, I think MEL has benefited, even though SFO has been deferred, DFW is gained. I can see AA at some point in MEL to supplement QF.

These A350’s can’t come soon enough!
But in all seriousness.. I think some 787’s will be freed when more A380’s come back into service + 3 more 787’s are still yet to be delivered so I’m not doubting BCN happening all that much.
SYD/MEL-LAX are yet to return to being entirely run by A380’s (bar the adhoc flights on occassion), and there’s still extra aircraft left to return the SYD-DFW to A380 if they want to (but all 10 would need to be back in service by then).

Pm3207 wrote:

Seems to be a confluence of a few rumours that we might see a QF PER-BCN seasonal flight next year.

If you are referring to the comment by me on the new BCN long haul thread, it was (as the emoji suggests) just stirring the pot. Unless you've heard it elsewhere, could you link a source?

redroo wrote:

RyanairGuru wrote:

SCFlyer wrote:

Well at least SYD-SFO from April 2023. MEL and BNE to SFO has been deferred for the foreseeable future, QF might see MEL-SFO in late 2023 at the earliest, but can't see QF returning on BNE-SFO for the foreseeable future.

SFO has already been deferred several times, I feel like it’s too soon to say it’s definitely coming back in April.

BNE-SFO seems more probable than MEL-SFO to me, as it can be flown with an A330. I doubt we will see MEL-SFO for years, there just aren’t enough 787s to go around. MEL-SFO is almost certainly a more lucrative market, but the long haul fleet is so stretched right now that Qantas will have to make do with what they’ve got. BNE is well positioned for domestic connections from the whole of Australia to the USA, so it wouldn’t be an O&D-only market, like the proposed but never launch BNE-ORD.

Having just returned from the USA I can say that the FX rate is a killer atm. Great for inbound, but horrendous for us outbound. Won’t stop some people though.

Too right. I just returned from a month in the Carolina's and the US is incredibly expensive at the moment. After a few days I stopped converting to AUD as it was doing my head in if it wasn't for visiting my son I wouldn't be going there right now. Having said that, who knows what the exchange rate will be in a few months time.

On that note, I flew UA IAH - SYD on the return and Y was very empty so it was a pleasant flight with my wife and I getting 3 seats each.

Speedbird011 wrote:

https://vt.tiktok.com/ZS8RVDS62/
Qantas new baggage handlers !!!!

I want to believe this video as being a joke, but I don’t think I can.

That affirms my recent choice to now only fly carryon on the Qantas Group.

NTLDaz wrote:

redroo wrote:

RyanairGuru wrote:

SFO has already been deferred several times, I feel like it’s too soon to say it’s definitely coming back in April.

BNE-SFO seems more probable than MEL-SFO to me, as it can be flown with an A330. I doubt we will see MEL-SFO for years, there just aren’t enough 787s to go around. MEL-SFO is almost certainly a more lucrative market, but the long haul fleet is so stretched right now that Qantas will have to make do with what they’ve got. BNE is well positioned for domestic connections from the whole of Australia to the USA, so it wouldn’t be an O&D-only market, like the proposed but never launch BNE-ORD.

Having just returned from the USA I can say that the FX rate is a killer atm. Great for inbound, but horrendous for us outbound. Won’t stop some people though.

Too right. I just returned from a month in the Carolina's and the US is incredibly expensive at the moment. After a few days I stopped converting to AUD as it was doing my head in if it wasn't for visiting my son I wouldn't be going there right now. Having said that, who knows what the exchange rate will be in a few months time.

On that note, I flew UA IAH - SYD on the return and Y was very empty so it was a pleasant flight with my wife and I getting 3 seats each.

I wonder if that’s because they block out seats… or if the service just isn’t as popular?

JJWess wrote:

NTLDaz wrote:

redroo wrote:

Having just returned from the USA I can say that the FX rate is a killer atm. Great for inbound, but horrendous for us outbound. Won’t stop some people though.

Too right. I just returned from a month in the Carolina's and the US is incredibly expensive at the moment. After a few days I stopped converting to AUD as it was doing my head in if it wasn't for visiting my son I wouldn't be going there right now. Having said that, who knows what the exchange rate will be in a few months time.

On that note, I flew UA IAH - SYD on the return and Y was very empty so it was a pleasant flight with my wife and I getting 3 seats each.

I wonder if that’s because they block out seats… or if the service just isn’t as popular?

It only recently restarted. A flight attendant told me they do block seats and that the return flight she was on was pretty full. From what I could see business seemed full ( but who knows how many paid ).

I hope it gets decent loads because it is a useful flight on our visits to our son in Charleston.

zkncj wrote:

Speedbird011 wrote:

https://vt.tiktok.com/ZS8RVDS62/
Qantas new baggage handlers !!!!

I want to believe this video as being a joke, but I don’t think I can.

That affirms my recent choice to now only fly carryon on the Qantas Group.

This article would suggest Qantas believes it to be real.