Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
iAvgeek737
Topic Author
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:23 am

United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:54 am

Cant seem to find a complete article yet but has seemed to be confirmed on both the AeroExplorer instagram as well as the United Pilot Forums


Link to the original post:
https://www.instagram.com/p/ClmyHDws_Fx/?igshid=NDk5N2NlZjQ=
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 1112
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:06 am

Being discussed in United thread along with copy of the memo announcement.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468679
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 555
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:22 am

Very interesting, I do think that this warrants its own thread though, since most people won't dig through the UA thread to find this, and this is fairly big news.

Anyway, cue the "is UA making a hub in LAS and MCO?" rumors...
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 2323
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:37 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Very interesting, I do think that this warrants its own thread though, since most people won't dig through the UA thread to find this, and this is fairly big news.

Anyway, cue the "is UA making a hub in LAS and MCO?" rumors...


Ed Russell has a good writeup as always, and he points out that the letter from UA explicitly states that this is no announcement of hub building:

https://airlineweekly.com/2022/11/unite ... s-drag-on/

LAS, MCO, and TPA all have something in common: they all have service at minimum to UA's seven main hubs, and they all skew mainline-heavy (particularly on the 737.) Putting bases in those cities definitely makes sense, and I wouldn't be surprised if they think about opening more bases in other cities that meet those criteria as well (BOS, PHX, SEA, AUS.)
 
panam330
Posts: 2504
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:13 am

intotheair wrote:
LAS, MCO, and TPA all have something in common: they all have service at minimum to UA's seven main hubs, and they all skew mainline-heavy (particularly on the 737.) Putting bases in those cities definitely makes sense, and I wouldn't be surprised if they think about opening more bases in other cities that meet those criteria as well (BOS, PHX, SEA, AUS.)

All of those, minus SEA, are inflight satellite or full blown bases as well.

This is about quality of life and operational integrity. They’re huge commuter cities. Eliminating a commute for crews is incredibly enticing, for obvious reasons. Operationally, the amount of money spent on hotel rooms in both cities is astounding. This is a win all around for United and its pilots.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 559
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:16 pm

This is going to induce further difficulties for LCC airline hiring. Many pilots favor Spirit/Frontier/JetBlue etc for their Florida bases (and LAS for the first two).
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1964
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:30 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
This is going to induce further difficulties for LCC airline hiring. Many pilots favor Spirit/Frontier/JetBlue etc for their Florida bases (and LAS for the first two).


Operationally, smart. Cost wise, smart. Recruiting wise, excellent move pointed out by Tony.
 
kiowa
Posts: 992
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:14 pm

Surprised United did not do this years ago. Hopefully it works well.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:25 pm

I know of more than a couple UA pilots are going to be very very excited to hear this. Happy early holidays to them :)
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 15011
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:18 pm

Las Vegas and MCO/TPA. I wonder if they're trying to entice some NK/B6 pilots to join United.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:30 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
This is going to induce further difficulties for LCC airline hiring. Many pilots favor Spirit/Frontier/JetBlue etc for their Florida bases (and LAS for the first two).

Allowing hires to go to low tax/no tax/lower cost of living states vs high-tax and regulation California Illinois, DC/Virginia and New York.

It would be interesting to observe the first few bids and learn what the trends are. Also an incentive for pilots to remain on the 737, to stay in those places.

That aside, it allows United to add more leisure as needed, given economic conditions.
Last edited by FlyingElvii on Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:31 pm

kiowa wrote:
Surprised United did not do this years ago. Hopefully it works well.


IIRC, United had a base in Tampa for several years?
 
TW870
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:37 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
This is going to induce further difficulties for LCC airline hiring. Many pilots favor Spirit/Frontier/JetBlue etc for their Florida bases (and LAS for the first two).

Allowing hires to go to low tax/no tax/lower cost of living states vs high-tax and regulation California Illinois, DC/Virginia and New York.

It would be interesting to observe the first few bids and learn what the trends are.


Yep it is tempting to think that this is a way to entice Spirit, Frontier, and JetBlue pilots to come to United instead of another major. But I bet these bases will go senior, making them off limits to new hires at least for the first year or two. Like others have said, airline employees want to maximize their standard of living by getting out of expensive coastal cities. LAS and MCO are ideal ways to do that.

I also think this is about layover costs. With the new "premium leisure" boom, Vegas - and especially Florida - are red hot. Hotels are very expensive. With hundreds of 737s in the fleet, UA knows it is going to have dozens of 737 pilots laying over in these cities for the foreseeable future. This is a way to avoid paying for those layovers, and to shift hotel costs to smaller cities where room prices are lower.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:40 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Also an incentive for pilots to remain on the 737, to stay in those places.


This is also a good point. I know one 737 pilot who lives in LAS who has considered upgrading to a widebody, but I can guarantee he'll be taking a very very close look at this, as he hates commuting. Can almost guarantee he'll take LAS 737 (if he can hold it) versus upgrading if it means he can stop commuting.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7949
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:30 pm

TW870 wrote:
With the new "premium leisure" boom, Vegas - and especially Florida - are red hot. Hotels are very expensive. With hundreds of 737s in the fleet, UA knows it is going to have dozens of 737 pilots laying over in these cities for the foreseeable future. This is a way to avoid paying for those layovers, and to shift hotel costs to smaller cities where room prices are lower.


It's potentially also a way to tap leisure demand at lower cost on off-peak days/seasons. It's not opening a hub since few connections would be offered (probably just to 3M) but they could do some out-and-back trips to non-hub markets -- things like Saturday-only MCO-IND or TPA-MSN.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 15011
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:58 pm

ScottB wrote:
TW870 wrote:
With the new "premium leisure" boom, Vegas - and especially Florida - are red hot. Hotels are very expensive. With hundreds of 737s in the fleet, UA knows it is going to have dozens of 737 pilots laying over in these cities for the foreseeable future. This is a way to avoid paying for those layovers, and to shift hotel costs to smaller cities where room prices are lower.


It's potentially also a way to tap leisure demand at lower cost on off-peak days/seasons. It's not opening a hub since few connections would be offered (probably just to 3M) but they could do some out-and-back trips to non-hub markets -- things like Saturday-only MCO-IND or TPA-MSN.


United toyed with this a bit during the pandemic, why not add a few point-to-point flights to reposition crews.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15908
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:01 pm

ScottB wrote:
TW870 wrote:
With the new "premium leisure" boom, Vegas - and especially Florida - are red hot. Hotels are very expensive. With hundreds of 737s in the fleet, UA knows it is going to have dozens of 737 pilots laying over in these cities for the foreseeable future. This is a way to avoid paying for those layovers, and to shift hotel costs to smaller cities where room prices are lower.


It's potentially also a way to tap leisure demand at lower cost on off-peak days/seasons. It's not opening a hub since few connections would be offered (probably just to 3M) but they could do some out-and-back trips to non-hub markets -- things like Saturday-only MCO-IND or TPA-MSN.


A lot of the Saturday leisure stuff has operated in the past with the opposite schedule (effectively an out and back IND-MCO-IND, for instance, though it may not have been crewed that way). I think out-and-backs from MCO are generally a better schedule for leisure passengers: check out and head to the airport to fly home northbound, arrive and go straight to the hotel to begin scheduled activities Sunday southbound. The same is probably true for potential LAS options like LAS-OKC, though Las Vegas passengers seem to trend less schedule sensitive.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11768
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:06 pm

TW870 wrote:
I also think this is about layover costs. With the new "premium leisure" boom, Vegas - and especially Florida - are red hot. Hotels are very expensive. With hundreds of 737s in the fleet, UA knows it is going to have dozens of 737 pilots laying over in these cities for the foreseeable future. This is a way to avoid paying for those layovers, and to shift hotel costs to smaller cities where room prices are lower.


Why are there (many) scheduled layovers in LAS? Can't they be avoided with rotations something like same-day ORD-LAS-ORD? SFO-LAS-EWR?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15908
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:40 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
I also think this is about layover costs. With the new "premium leisure" boom, Vegas - and especially Florida - are red hot. Hotels are very expensive. With hundreds of 737s in the fleet, UA knows it is going to have dozens of 737 pilots laying over in these cities for the foreseeable future. This is a way to avoid paying for those layovers, and to shift hotel costs to smaller cities where room prices are lower.


Why are there (many) scheduled layovers in LAS? Can't they be avoided with rotations something like same-day ORD-LAS-ORD? SFO-LAS-EWR?


RONs. You can't get every evening arrival out of town on a redeye.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3538
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:02 pm

TPA will require a LOA with ALPA and they made it clear last night that a contract is the priority not giving the company a co-terminal.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 9162
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:17 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Also an incentive for pilots to remain on the 737, to stay in those places.


This is also a good point. I know one 737 pilot who lives in LAS who has considered upgrading to a widebody, but I can guarantee he'll be taking a very very close look at this, as he hates commuting. Can almost guarantee he'll take LAS 737 (if he can hold it) versus upgrading if it means he can stop commuting.

Forgive but I do not understand the term of pilots commuting, could you explain pls. I have no experience of crew ops.
 
N1120A
Posts: 27597
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:31 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
floridaflyboy wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Also an incentive for pilots to remain on the 737, to stay in those places.


This is also a good point. I know one 737 pilot who lives in LAS who has considered upgrading to a widebody, but I can guarantee he'll be taking a very very close look at this, as he hates commuting. Can almost guarantee he'll take LAS 737 (if he can hold it) versus upgrading if it means he can stop commuting.

Forgive but I do not understand the term of pilots commuting, could you explain pls. I have no experience of crew ops.


Flight crew members, both pilots and flight attendants, often live in a difference city from their base. They then commute into the city by airplane, either on their employer's metal or on someone else's - which usually is low or no cost, but has its own set of headaches. It is extremely common in the US.
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 867
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:09 pm

If the pandemic taught corporate America anything it's that remote work is possible and, in some cases, optimal to traditional on site model. Modern crew bases don't need large amounts of real estate with computers, briefing rooms & layers of management.
Flight & cabin crew have access to all the information needed on their personal phones and company issued PDAs. Scheduling dispatch & operations issues requiring human intervention can be handled over the phone by existing support infrastructure. I hope we see more of this in the future. The QOL boost is huge.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 1015
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:34 pm

panam330 wrote:
This is a win all around for United and its pilots.


Why only mention pilots....FA's also commute?
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 559
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:50 pm

Vicenza wrote:
panam330 wrote:
This is a win all around for United and its pilots.


Why only mention pilots....FA's also commute?

This is a discussion on a pilot base. Nothing to do with FAs.
 
73X
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:03 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:00 pm

Also the FAs already have a base in MCO and LAS
 
airtran737
Posts: 3538
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:11 pm

Vicenza wrote:
panam330 wrote:
This is a win all around for United and its pilots.


Why only mention pilots....FA's also commute?


Because they aren't part of this announcement. The FA's already have a TPA and LAS base.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:39 pm

airtran737 wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
panam330 wrote:
This is a win all around for United and its pilots.


Why only mention pilots....FA's also commute?


Because they aren't part of this announcement. The FA's already have a TPA and LAS base.

Not that big of a deal, MCO is an easy two-hour van ride most days.
3am callout, 5am report, 2 hour van ride, one hour ground side, and they can work an 8-ish AM departure to anywhere.

TPA would work the same for Cockpit crew, but I am sure United will eventually push for a co-base, as many airlines consider MIA-FLL or New York to be.
With the growth around Lakeland, it is eventually going to be a mega-metro anyway.
 
TW870
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:52 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
I also think this is about layover costs. With the new "premium leisure" boom, Vegas - and especially Florida - are red hot. Hotels are very expensive. With hundreds of 737s in the fleet, UA knows it is going to have dozens of 737 pilots laying over in these cities for the foreseeable future. This is a way to avoid paying for those layovers, and to shift hotel costs to smaller cities where room prices are lower.


Why are there (many) scheduled layovers in LAS? Can't they be avoided with rotations something like same-day ORD-LAS-ORD? SFO-LAS-EWR?


RONs. You can't get every evening arrival out of town on a redeye.


That is absolutely right, as both of these airports have large numbers of remain over night (RON) airplanes. This is especially true at MCO where geography precludes redeye utilization. Yes, eastern time allows them to launch some late departures to DEN, IAH, and the west coast, but you have many airplanes sitting on the ground overnight. Right now, all of those crews layover in hotel markets that are booming. The will allow them to staff dozens of early morning departures in both LAS and MCO with local crews instead of those coming from the hotel.
 
codc10
Posts: 3621
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:55 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
I also think this is about layover costs. With the new "premium leisure" boom, Vegas - and especially Florida - are red hot. Hotels are very expensive. With hundreds of 737s in the fleet, UA knows it is going to have dozens of 737 pilots laying over in these cities for the foreseeable future. This is a way to avoid paying for those layovers, and to shift hotel costs to smaller cities where room prices are lower.


Why are there (many) scheduled layovers in LAS? Can't they be avoided with rotations something like same-day ORD-LAS-ORD? SFO-LAS-EWR?


RONs. You can't get every evening arrival out of town on a redeye.


Which is perhaps a downside of LAS and why it will probably go more junior than MCO... lots of all-nighters.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15908
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:13 pm

codc10 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Why are there (many) scheduled layovers in LAS? Can't they be avoided with rotations something like same-day ORD-LAS-ORD? SFO-LAS-EWR?


RONs. You can't get every evening arrival out of town on a redeye.


Which is perhaps a downside of LAS and why it will probably go more junior than MCO... lots of all-nighters.


Do UA pilots have contractual protection from working a flight after a redeye? If so, staffing redeyes with LAS crews just moves the hotel room "problem" from LAS to the hubs.
 
Caspian27
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:48 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:13 pm

Italianflyer wrote:
If the pandemic taught corporate America anything it's that remote work is possible and, in some cases, optimal to traditional on site model. Modern crew bases don't need large amounts of real estate with computers, briefing rooms & layers of management.
Flight & cabin crew have access to all the information needed on their personal phones and company issued PDAs. Scheduling dispatch & operations issues requiring human intervention can be handled over the phone by existing support infrastructure. I hope we see more of this in the future. The QOL boost is huge.


We’ve been told that these new bases will be staffed like any other base, chief pilots, crew areas etc. So pilots will have the same planning areas, computers, etc. as any other domicile, so I don’t see the comparison with regular corporate America trending towards remote work.
 
Caspian27
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:48 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:18 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
codc10 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

RONs. You can't get every evening arrival out of town on a redeye.


Which is perhaps a downside of LAS and why it will probably go more junior than MCO... lots of all-nighters.


Do UA pilots have contractual protection from working a flight after a redeye? If so, staffing redeyes with LAS crews just moves the hotel room "problem" from LAS to the hubs.


There are numerous contractual protections with all night flying, but all you really need after operating a red eye is legal rest. People based on the West Coast fly a lot of red eyes and already did a lot of day stays in hubs. This will be no different.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:22 pm

Interesting.

A high cost full service airline basing / hubbing in 2 chronically low yield markets.

I can’t see this working out well.
 
Trk1
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:33 pm

The discussion is off track. The crew base has nothing to do with more flights or a hub. Simply allowing pilots to stop commuting and give an employee perk to attract more pilots
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15908
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:58 pm

Caspian27 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
codc10 wrote:

Which is perhaps a downside of LAS and why it will probably go more junior than MCO... lots of all-nighters.


Do UA pilots have contractual protection from working a flight after a redeye? If so, staffing redeyes with LAS crews just moves the hotel room "problem" from LAS to the hubs.


There are numerous contractual protections with all night flying, but all you really need after operating a red eye is legal rest. People based on the West Coast fly a lot of red eyes and already did a lot of day stays in hubs. This will be no different.


My question was a little different. Can UA pilots operate, say, LAS-ORD-IND as a contractual matter? That’s a legal itinerary FAR-wise unless the ORD layover is really long.
 
User avatar
Acey559
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:30 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:08 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Caspian27 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Do UA pilots have contractual protection from working a flight after a redeye? If so, staffing redeyes with LAS crews just moves the hotel room "problem" from LAS to the hubs.


There are numerous contractual protections with all night flying, but all you really need after operating a red eye is legal rest. People based on the West Coast fly a lot of red eyes and already did a lot of day stays in hubs. This will be no different.


My question was a little different. Can UA pilots operate, say, LAS-ORD-IND as a contractual matter? That’s a legal itinerary FAR-wise unless the ORD layover is really long.


No, that's not contractually allowable. We must have an off-duty period (legal rest, i.e. a minimum of 10 hours) after any ANF or All Night Flying.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15908
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:14 am

Acey559 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Caspian27 wrote:

There are numerous contractual protections with all night flying, but all you really need after operating a red eye is legal rest. People based on the West Coast fly a lot of red eyes and already did a lot of day stays in hubs. This will be no different.


My question was a little different. Can UA pilots operate, say, LAS-ORD-IND as a contractual matter? That’s a legal itinerary FAR-wise unless the ORD layover is really long.


No, that's not contractually allowable. We must have an off-duty period (legal rest, i.e. a minimum of 10 hours) after any ANF or All Night Flying.


Thanks. That’s what I expected. What that means is that having a LAS crew operate LAS redeyes results in hotel expenses at the hubs.
 
Max Q
Posts: 9442
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:20 am

Surprised no one has brought up the possibility of these crew bases being the precursor to opening a new hub or hubs, MCO seems particularly likely
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5576
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:31 am

Max Q wrote:
Surprised no one has brought up the possibility of these crew bases being the precursor to opening a new hub or hubs, MCO seems particularly likely


United would lose a lot of money with an MCO hub. Yields are too low especially for a carrier like UA.

This is being done to keep pilots happy.
 
codc10
Posts: 3621
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:03 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Acey559 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

My question was a little different. Can UA pilots operate, say, LAS-ORD-IND as a contractual matter? That’s a legal itinerary FAR-wise unless the ORD layover is really long.


No, that's not contractually allowable. We must have an off-duty period (legal rest, i.e. a minimum of 10 hours) after any ANF or All Night Flying.


Thanks. That’s what I expected. What that means is that having a LAS crew operate LAS redeyes results in hotel expenses at the hubs.


Hotel savings are not the prime benefit of opening a pilot domicile, but it is notable that LAS and MCO are costly hotel markets and less seasonal than in years past. Any trip with an ANF leg is going to have a hotel stay somewhere in the pairing, so if it's in a market where UA has major economies of scale (like a hub), it might be cheaper to shift hotel costs there rather than the non-hub.

United clearly has determined the goodwill among an increasingly-disgruntled workgroup, incremental reliability improvements, marginal hotel cost savings and recruiting advantage of Nevada and Florida pilot bases outweigh the additional expense and operational complexity of adding new domiciles.
 
TW870
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:17 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Acey559 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

My question was a little different. Can UA pilots operate, say, LAS-ORD-IND as a contractual matter? That’s a legal itinerary FAR-wise unless the ORD layover is really long.


No, that's not contractually allowable. We must have an off-duty period (legal rest, i.e. a minimum of 10 hours) after any ANF or All Night Flying.


Thanks. That’s what I expected. What that means is that having a LAS crew operate LAS redeyes results in hotel expenses at the hubs.


That is unlikely. The redeyes out of LAS are to ORD, EWR, and IAD, all of which are crew bases. Since the contract requires rest after an all nighter, it is most efficient to schedule the all nighter with ORD, EWR, and IAD-based crews on the last leg of a trip.

The cost savings come in not needing hotels for the late night arrival RONs - which turn into the morning departures.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3552
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:22 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Acey559 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

My question was a little different. Can UA pilots operate, say, LAS-ORD-IND as a contractual matter? That’s a legal itinerary FAR-wise unless the ORD layover is really long.


No, that's not contractually allowable. We must have an off-duty period (legal rest, i.e. a minimum of 10 hours) after any ANF or All Night Flying.


Thanks. That’s what I expected. What that means is that having a LAS crew operate LAS redeyes results in hotel expenses at the hubs.


I would expect limited of the LAS red-eyes to be crewed with LAS crews on day 1 of their trip. It makes more sense to crew those red-eyes (when possible) with crews from other bases as they can efficiently fly a leg before hand.
 
User avatar
Acey559
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:30 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:57 am

For what it's worth, we had a town hall yesterday and we were specifically told by one of the people who is in charge of pairing construction that LAS will have a high concentration of red eyes. Whether that's to start the ID or somewhere in the middle I'm not sure he specified, but he did make a point to address it.
 
bigb
Posts: 1859
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:18 am

Max Q wrote:
Surprised no one has brought up the possibility of these crew bases being the precursor to opening a new hub or hubs, MCO seems particularly likely


Crew base doesn’t equal a “hub”. It will be a place crews originate and terminate trips from. That’s all>…
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15908
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:14 pm

alasizon wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Acey559 wrote:

No, that's not contractually allowable. We must have an off-duty period (legal rest, i.e. a minimum of 10 hours) after any ANF or All Night Flying.


Thanks. That’s what I expected. What that means is that having a LAS crew operate LAS redeyes results in hotel expenses at the hubs.


I would expect limited of the LAS red-eyes to be crewed with LAS crews on day 1 of their trip. It makes more sense to crew those red-eyes (when possible) with crews from other bases as they can efficiently fly a leg before hand.


LAS crews should be able to fly a LAX or SFO turn and still be legal to operate at least the shorter redeyes. That’s actually a fairly efficient day.
 
User avatar
Acey559
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:30 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:47 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Thanks. That’s what I expected. What that means is that having a LAS crew operate LAS redeyes results in hotel expenses at the hubs.


I would expect limited of the LAS red-eyes to be crewed with LAS crews on day 1 of their trip. It makes more sense to crew those red-eyes (when possible) with crews from other bases as they can efficiently fly a leg before hand.


LAS crews should be able to fly a LAX or SFO turn and still be legal to operate at least the shorter redeyes. That’s actually a fairly efficient day.


It would be, but the company is restricted by ALPA to constructing pairings that contain only one ANF segment. ALPA can waive that provision to allow a maximum of two flight segments (LAS-LAX-EWR, for example) but that's the most we would ever be able to do and only with union concurrence.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15908
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:33 pm

Acey559 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
alasizon wrote:

I would expect limited of the LAS red-eyes to be crewed with LAS crews on day 1 of their trip. It makes more sense to crew those red-eyes (when possible) with crews from other bases as they can efficiently fly a leg before hand.


LAS crews should be able to fly a LAX or SFO turn and still be legal to operate at least the shorter redeyes. That’s actually a fairly efficient day.


It would be, but the company is restricted by ALPA to constructing pairings that contain only one ANF segment. ALPA can waive that provision to allow a maximum of two flight segments (LAS-LAX-EWR, for example) but that's the most we would ever be able to do and only with union concurrence.


With that restriction—and I don’t view waiver as a very real possibility given the current labor climate—it really doesn’t matter what base operates the flights from a cost/efficiency perspective.
 
FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1977
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:48 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Interesting.

A high cost full service airline basing / hubbing in 2 chronically low yield markets.

I can’t see this working out well.


This is not a hub announcement; in fact it specifically notes no hubs are forthcoming. This is about pilot bases to better help scheduling, pilot retention, quality of life etc. FAs have had bases there for years. It also does not cost UA much at all. Win-win. No tax states like Texas, Nevada, and Florida are popular in the industry.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 2155
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: United to open LAS/MCO 737 Base in 2023

Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:17 pm

Does anyone think this affects the CLE base in any way?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos