Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
ASMVPGOLD
Topic Author
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:05 am

KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:07 pm

Seattle has had a little bit of weather the last few days and once again KSEA weather ops has failed :-/. Based on the departure boards... AS has simply thrown in the towel on today and cancelled most of their Seattle departures. There has to be a better way to do AS's winter ops at KSEA that don't completely shut down the operation when we get 1/2 of snow or the temps are near freezing. DL (and other airlines) seems to be doing mostly okay this morning, so it seems it is more of an AS problem then the airport (but I know deicing ops are still a challenge.)

I hope everyone traveling through KSEA this week can find a way to get where they are going.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 6360
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:54 pm

Weather is improving slowly at SEA. The hitch with SEA is the availability of de-icing services. For the number of flights at SEA, there isn't nearly enough de-icing trucks to deal with number of flights.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4703
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:58 pm

ASMVPGOLD wrote:
Seattle has had a little bit of weather the last few days and once again KSEA weather ops has failed :-/. Based on the departure boards... AS has simply thrown in the towel on today and cancelled most of their Seattle departures. There has to be a better way to do AS's winter ops at KSEA that don't completely shut down the operation when we get 1/2 of snow or the temps are near freezing. DL (and other airlines) seems to be doing mostly okay this morning, so it seems it is more of an AS problem then the airport (but I know deicing ops are still a challenge.)

I hope everyone traveling through KSEA this week can find a way to get where they are going.


Most of their departures? That's not even close to true. Yes, most in the morning, but AS is generally fine this afternoon and evening
 
ASMVPGOLD
Topic Author
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:05 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:58 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
ASMVPGOLD wrote:
Seattle has had a little bit of weather the last few days and once again KSEA weather ops has failed :-/. Based on the departure boards... AS has simply thrown in the towel on today and cancelled most of their Seattle departures. There has to be a better way to do AS's winter ops at KSEA that don't completely shut down the operation when we get 1/2 of snow or the temps are near freezing. DL (and other airlines) seems to be doing mostly okay this morning, so it seems it is more of an AS problem then the airport (but I know deicing ops are still a challenge.)

I hope everyone traveling through KSEA this week can find a way to get where they are going.


Most of their departures? That's not even close to true. Yes, most in the morning, but AS is generally fine this afternoon and evening


Okay. "most of their departures prior to noon" (and it wasn't noon yet when I posted). Does look like things are improving this afternoon, which is good to see. The issue is that this is a scenario that keeps repeating itself, something seems fundamentally broken if this keeps happening. Yes, SEA needs more deicing equipment, so why (after the last few meltdowns) isn't the port of Seattle and/or AS buying some additional equipment? (yes, I know it is not that simple... but I am genuinely curious as to why SEA and AS haven't figured out a solution yet.) Or... does the port of Seattle and AS look at days like today and think "this is acceptable".
 
Slobalex
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:08 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:07 am

I hope they funnel some pax.via pdx. Seattle is horrible to connect to
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 6360
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:17 am

Slobalex wrote:
I hope they funnel some pax.via pdx. Seattle is horrible to connect to


SEA is not that bad if you know where to go and how to use the trains.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:19 am

ASMVPGOLD wrote:
Seattle has had a little bit of weather the last few days and once again KSEA weather ops has failed :-/. Based on the departure boards... AS has simply thrown in the towel on today and cancelled most of their Seattle departures. There has to be a better way to do AS's winter ops at KSEA that don't completely shut down the operation when we get 1/2 of snow or the temps are near freezing. DL (and other airlines) seems to be doing mostly okay this morning, so it seems it is more of an AS problem then the airport (but I know deicing ops are still a challenge.)

I hope everyone traveling through KSEA this week can find a way to get where they are going.

Sometimes, you just have to whack the schedule to recover quickly.
Pushing through can create a 3 day nightmare of out-of-place and out-of-time crews, as well as airplanes, maint cycles, etc.

In my experience, the biggest breakdowns at hubs occur when the next shift can’t get in due to the weather. Better to carve the schedule than leave planes on taxiways with timed out crews waiting for gates they have no one to service.

In recent years, the airlines have decided that it is better to take the hit now, than deal with all of the downline issues and customer complaints from it. Imagine what would have happened had Twitter been around during the 90’s “Clinton Blizzard” in Detroit?
 
ASMVPGOLD
Topic Author
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:05 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:04 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
ASMVPGOLD wrote:
Seattle has had a little bit of weather the last few days and once again KSEA weather ops has failed :-/. Based on the departure boards... AS has simply thrown in the towel on today and cancelled most of their Seattle departures. There has to be a better way to do AS's winter ops at KSEA that don't completely shut down the operation when we get 1/2 of snow or the temps are near freezing. DL (and other airlines) seems to be doing mostly okay this morning, so it seems it is more of an AS problem then the airport (but I know deicing ops are still a challenge.)

I hope everyone traveling through KSEA this week can find a way to get where they are going.

Sometimes, you just have to whack the schedule to recover quickly.
Pushing through can create a 3 day nightmare of out-of-place and out-of-time crews, as well as airplanes, maint cycles, etc.

In my experience, the biggest breakdowns at hubs occur when the next shift can’t get in due to the weather. Better to carve the schedule than leave planes on taxiways with timed out crews waiting for gates they have no one to service.

In recent years, the airlines have decided that it is better to take the hit now, than deal with all of the downline issues and customer complaints from it. Imagine what would have happened had Twitter been around during the 90’s “Clinton Blizzard” in Detroit?


Which was kind of my whole point... AS made the decision this morning to pull the plug (at least for the AM departures), other airlines (including DL) were operating fine this morning. WN's 6am to SJC was a go... AS cancelled. DL's crews didn't seem to have an issue getting to the airport for the morning departures (there was some ice, but roads weren't terrible.) So it was an AS focused decision. It wasn't a perfect weather day (near freezing, light snowfall, a little snow on the ground from Tues/Wed), but it wasn't a "bad weather day". If the operation can't keep moving forward on a day like today, then we are going to have a lot of days where AS decides to just cancel and go home. I suspect the limited deicing equipment along with the lack of ramp space to move planes around for deicing is the limiting factor. If it was a crew availability decision: then maybe (and this is entirely possible) AS made the right decision and decided to not take a risk, and other airlines did take a risk and just got lucky that everyone made it to the airport.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:36 am

ASMVPGOLD wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
ASMVPGOLD wrote:
Seattle has had a little bit of weather the last few days and once again KSEA weather ops has failed :-/. Based on the departure boards... AS has simply thrown in the towel on today and cancelled most of their Seattle departures. There has to be a better way to do AS's winter ops at KSEA that don't completely shut down the operation when we get 1/2 of snow or the temps are near freezing. DL (and other airlines) seems to be doing mostly okay this morning, so it seems it is more of an AS problem then the airport (but I know deicing ops are still a challenge.)

I hope everyone traveling through KSEA this week can find a way to get where they are going.

Sometimes, you just have to whack the schedule to recover quickly.
Pushing through can create a 3 day nightmare of out-of-place and out-of-time crews, as well as airplanes, maint cycles, etc.

In my experience, the biggest breakdowns at hubs occur when the next shift can’t get in due to the weather. Better to carve the schedule than leave planes on taxiways with timed out crews waiting for gates they have no one to service.

In recent years, the airlines have decided that it is better to take the hit now, than deal with all of the downline issues and customer complaints from it. Imagine what would have happened had Twitter been around during the 90’s “Clinton Blizzard” in Detroit?


Which was kind of my whole point... AS made the decision this morning to pull the plug (at least for the AM departures), other airlines (including DL) were operating fine this morning. WN's 6am to SJC was a go... AS cancelled. DL's crews didn't seem to have an issue getting to the airport for the morning departures (there was some ice, but roads weren't terrible.) So it was an AS focused decision. It wasn't a perfect weather day (near freezing, light snowfall, a little snow on the ground from Tues/Wed), but it wasn't a "bad weather day". If the operation can't keep moving forward on a day like today, then we are going to have a lot of days where AS decides to just cancel and go home. I suspect the limited deicing equipment along with the lack of ramp space to move planes around for deicing is the limiting factor. If it was a crew availability decision: then maybe (and this is entirely possible) AS made the right decision and decided to not take a risk, and other airlines did take a risk and just got lucky that everyone made it to the airport.

It takes more than just flight crews to run an op. How many ramp and gate call offs did they have? How about the contractors?

The one thing I have have noticed, much more in recent years than in the past, is that the HQ Operations staff always make it in, come snow, ice, fog, whatever. The low-paid station staff however, are not nearly as committed anymore. Why deal with an icy rush hour drive and a cold crappy day on the ramp for $13 an hour, or whatever the Sea-Tac minimum wage is these days, when you can just take a paid sick day?

For most, it isn’t the respected “Glamour” job it used to be.
 
SuperDash
Posts: 416
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:52 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:47 am

It's complicated. First off, Seattle doesn't get that many "snow events". So unlike Denver, you can't just have dedicated de-ice crews. The people to do the deicing come from somewhere else when it snows (many from ground handling or maintenance). Secondly, when you are having a snowfall event, deicing gets more complicated as the fluids have to remove ice and then another layer is applied to prevent ice buildup during the taxi time, known as hold over time (time you apply the anti-ice to the time you take off). Miss that hold over time and its back to deice. So it takes longer and you can only push so many airplanes through the deice pads each hour. Alaska has close to 50 gates and those will fill a couple of times in the morning for initial launches. I think they share some or all of the deicing with Delta and you can only put so much though deice. The next issue is people. Crews, Passenger Service, Maintenance, Ground, Fuelers, Caterers, Dispatchers and many more have to be able to make it into work for the airline to operate. Some of these people come from more than an hour away and it may be more difficult or un-safe for them to get in. My guess is, as a percentage, that Alaska has a much higher percentage of crews from Seattle that launch the day. Delta will still have a decent percentage of crews coming from hotels. All the other airlines have all of their crews coming from hotels. I'm sure anyone on this board can tell you Delta gets destroyed when it snows in Atlanta or American when it snows in Dallas. It just isn't part of the day to day in Seattle and not cost effective to make it so that 100% of a schedule can be deiced during an event that will only happen a couple of times a year. So yes, when the "s" word is in the forecast, pack your patience in Seattle. It could be a long wait or a changed or cancelled trip.
 
QXorVX
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:45 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:45 am

ASMVPGOLD wrote:
.... (and this is entirely possible) AS made the right decision and decided to not take a risk, and other airlines did take a risk and just got lucky that everyone made it to the airport.


This is it exactly. The forecast was much worse than what actually happened. They made the call one way, DL made it the other (not going to compare airlines with very little skin in the game at SEA). Had it been the heavy snow fall predicted AS would have looked reasonable and DL looked like a mess. Better cancel in advance and reroute rather than try to paste it together the day of the bad weather. Time is your friend on irregular operations.

SEA snow messes up Delta's SEA operation. SEA snow messes up Alaska's ENTIRE operation, downside of being so heavy in one hub.

I think this was not a perfect response, but baby steps I guess. Previous snow events AS has been caught with their pants down, this time maybe too conservative.
 
User avatar
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3878
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:30 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:25 am

ASMVPGOLD wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
ASMVPGOLD wrote:
Seattle has had a little bit of weather the last few days and once again KSEA weather ops has failed :-/. Based on the departure boards... AS has simply thrown in the towel on today and cancelled most of their Seattle departures. There has to be a better way to do AS's winter ops at KSEA that don't completely shut down the operation when we get 1/2 of snow or the temps are near freezing. DL (and other airlines) seems to be doing mostly okay this morning, so it seems it is more of an AS problem then the airport (but I know deicing ops are still a challenge.)

I hope everyone traveling through KSEA this week can find a way to get where they are going.

Sometimes, you just have to whack the schedule to recover quickly.
Pushing through can create a 3 day nightmare of out-of-place and out-of-time crews, as well as airplanes, maint cycles, etc.

In my experience, the biggest breakdowns at hubs occur when the next shift can’t get in due to the weather. Better to carve the schedule than leave planes on taxiways with timed out crews waiting for gates they have no one to service.

In recent years, the airlines have decided that it is better to take the hit now, than deal with all of the downline issues and customer complaints from it. Imagine what would have happened had Twitter been around during the 90’s “Clinton Blizzard” in Detroit?


Which was kind of my whole point... AS made the decision this morning to pull the plug (at least for the AM departures), other airlines (including DL) were operating fine this morning. WN's 6am to SJC was a go... AS cancelled. DL's crews didn't seem to have an issue getting to the airport for the morning departures (there was some ice, but roads weren't terrible.) So it was an AS focused decision. It wasn't a perfect weather day (near freezing, light snowfall, a little snow on the ground from Tues/Wed), but it wasn't a "bad weather day". If the operation can't keep moving forward on a day like today, then we are going to have a lot of days where AS decides to just cancel and go home. I suspect the limited deicing equipment along with the lack of ramp space to move planes around for deicing is the limiting factor. If it was a crew availability decision: then maybe (and this is entirely possible) AS made the right decision and decided to not take a risk, and other airlines did take a risk and just got lucky that everyone made it to the airport.


You have to remember that AS ops across their entire system are going to feel the hit if a decision to push through with the AM schedule during a weather event proves to be I’ll-advised. DL isn’t going to suffer anywhere nearly as bad across the board if something goes wrong this morning.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11768
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:32 am

Flightaware at 1929 Seattle time for KSEA by carrier shows AS at 34% cancelled and 16% delayed, with Horizon at 15%, 19%, respectively.

Delta mainline is 0% cancelled (rounded down from one flight) and 26% delayed. Apparently Delta can find deicing services and ramp crew that can get to work.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 2062
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:53 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Flightaware at 1929 Seattle time for KSEA by carrier shows AS at 34% cancelled and 16% delayed, with Horizon at 15%, 19%, respectively.

Delta mainline is 0% cancelled (rounded down from one flight) and 26% delayed. Apparently Delta can find deicing services and ramp crew that can get to work.


how many of those DL flights were delayed by five, six, ten, even 20 hours? DL will delay a flight by an entire day rather than actually cancel it.
 
jerrydj
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:23 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:32 am

You'd think AS would eventually figured out how to operate more professionally through a snow IROP at SEA. But this one proves for another year, their airport leadership and vendors are clueless and not on the same page.

Sure, cancels are going to happen. DL had some too. But this is yet another full-on multi-day meltdown. Embarrassing. And pathetic.
 
jerrydj
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:23 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:35 am

Yes they will. It holds the passengers seat on their booked flight. Unlike a cancel which potentially kicks the passenger out for a day, or even several, on their intended final destination.

DL does it some times because it knows it can operate the delayed flight. Says a lot more than AS.

ASFlyer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Flightaware at 1929 Seattle time for KSEA by carrier shows AS at 34% cancelled and 16% delayed, with Horizon at 15%, 19%, respectively.

Delta mainline is 0% cancelled (rounded down from one flight) and 26% delayed. Apparently Delta can find deicing services and ramp crew that can get to work.


how many of those DL flights were delayed by five, six, ten, even 20 hours? DL will delay a flight by an entire day rather than actually cancel it.
 
ASMVPGOLD
Topic Author
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:05 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:53 am

jerrydj wrote:
Yes they will. It holds the passengers seat on their booked flight. Unlike a cancel which potentially kicks the passenger out for a day, or even several, on their intended final destination.

DL does it some times because it knows it can operate the delayed flight. Says a lot more than AS.

ASFlyer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Flightaware at 1929 Seattle time for KSEA by carrier shows AS at 34% cancelled and 16% delayed, with Horizon at 15%, 19%, respectively.

Delta mainline is 0% cancelled (rounded down from one flight) and 26% delayed. Apparently Delta can find deicing services and ramp crew that can get to work.


how many of those DL flights were delayed by five, six, ten, even 20 hours? DL will delay a flight by an entire day rather than actually cancel it.


I'd much rather get there late on DL then not at all on AS. Last year AS left me and my family stranded on vacation... TWICE! Both times AS sent me an email that my flight was cancelled and they had no alternate options to get me to my destination (which was back home in Seattle) for the next 4 days, therefore, they were not rebooking us, tickets (that I paid full fare for) were basically cancalled, they recommended that we didn travel, and to contact them for a refund (and I have status on AS.) I called up Southwest, booked and paid for a ticket, and got us home. Late is better than "never and you are on your own." For the last 25 years I have been the biggest fan of AS... was MVP Gold/Gold 75k for many of those years... but I do most of my flying on DL these days, and that is mainly because I have seen first hand the shift in AS from a once really amazing airline... so one that just moves people around and doesn't seem to really care anymore, while DL continues to impress me every time I fly them (full disclosure: I am Diamond+Million Miler on DL, so I likely see a premium experience vs. the average traveler... but still... it's the little things that matter and I have confidence in DL's ability to get me where I need to be.)
 
LAXBUR
Posts: 498
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:07 am

Isn’t Alaska’s operation twice that of Delta’s? Just because Delta is a larger airline doesn’t mean that the SEA operation is comparable to AS. Kind of amazing people are stupidly trying to compare the two. Delta had 0% mainline but how many mainline flights do they have compared to Alaska? I’m guessing significantly less.

Just some examples:


SEA-LAX; AS 12 mainline, DL 6 mainline
SEA-SFO; AS 9 mainline, DL 1 mainline/4 ERJ
SEA-SLC; AS 3 mainline, DL 6 mainline
SEA-LAS; AS 8 mainline, DL 5 mainline
SEA-PHX; AS 9 mainline, DL 5 mainline
SEA-MSP; AS 2 mainline, DL 5 mainline

And AS flies mainline to smaller airports out of SEA. Doesn’t absolve AS, but it isn’t smart to try to compare the two.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 7117
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:15 am

jerrydj wrote:
You'd think AS would eventually figured out how to operate more professionally through a snow IROP at SEA. But this one proves for another year, their airport leadership and vendors are clueless and not on the same page.

Sure, cancels are going to happen. DL had some too. But this is yet another full-on multi-day meltdown. Embarrassing. And pathetic.


I agree. Last year’s snow was a joke too. They canceled my flight out of PAE at the last minute, despite falsely showing status as only being two hours delayed until the last minute.

How were operations at PAE the past few days?

Snow happens almost every year. AS just seems clueless.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 2062
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:24 am

jerrydj wrote:
Yes they will. It holds the passengers seat on their booked flight. Unlike a cancel which potentially kicks the passenger out for a day, or even several, on their intended final destination.

DL does it some times because it knows it can operate the delayed flight. Says a lot more than AS.

ASFlyer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Flightaware at 1929 Seattle time for KSEA by carrier shows AS at 34% cancelled and 16% delayed, with Horizon at 15%, 19%, respectively.

Delta mainline is 0% cancelled (rounded down from one flight) and 26% delayed. Apparently Delta can find deicing services and ramp crew that can get to work.


how many of those DL flights were delayed by five, six, ten, even 20 hours? DL will delay a flight by an entire day rather than actually cancel it.


:roll: no airline is perfect - check out ATL during a little snow. DL falls apart completely - along the lines of Alaska in SEA. Ask the passengers there on such a day if they feel taken care of.
 
PacificWest
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 3:52 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:37 am

LAXBUR wrote:
Isn’t Alaska’s operation twice that of Delta’s? Just because Delta is a larger airline doesn’t mean that the SEA operation is comparable to AS. Kind of amazing people are stupidly trying to compare the two. Delta had 0% mainline but how many mainline flights do they have compared to Alaska? I’m guessing significantly less.

Just some examples:


SEA-LAX; AS 12 mainline, DL 6 mainline
SEA-SFO; AS 9 mainline, DL 1 mainline/4 ERJ
SEA-SLC; AS 3 mainline, DL 6 mainline
SEA-LAS; AS 8 mainline, DL 5 mainline
SEA-PHX; AS 9 mainline, DL 5 mainline
SEA-MSP; AS 2 mainline, DL 5 mainline

And AS flies mainline to smaller airports out of SEA. Doesn’t absolve AS, but it isn’t smart to try to compare the two.


If only Alaska didn't gut their PDX schedules and force all connecting traffic to Seattle.

Nah, better to just dump capacity and use up gate as much gate space in SEA so that DL can't have it...amirite?!
 
Pontiac
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:56 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:12 am

I was booked today ABQ-SEA; fam is in the Convergence Zone so cancelled as the roads can get really ugly. Several days of snow were forecast till departure on Sunday - no thanks. I lived there 3 decades so know how inaccurate forecasts can be.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 2448
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:05 am

jerrydj wrote:
Yes they will. It holds the passengers seat on their booked flight. Unlike a cancel which potentially kicks the passenger out for a day, or even several, on their intended final destination.

DL does it some times because it knows it can operate the delayed flight. Says a lot more than AS.

ASFlyer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Flightaware at 1929 Seattle time for KSEA by carrier shows AS at 34% cancelled and 16% delayed, with Horizon at 15%, 19%, respectively.

Delta mainline is 0% cancelled (rounded down from one flight) and 26% delayed. Apparently Delta can find deicing services and ramp crew that can get to work.


how many of those DL flights were delayed by five, six, ten, even 20 hours? DL will delay a flight by an entire day rather than actually cancel it.

Delta does it so that they can show it as a completed flight. It will hit the D-0 rating, but not the completion rate in the federal numbers.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:06 pm

All those comparing DL to AS at SEA might want to compare the entire DL network to the AS network. I was trying to get home on DL (not from SEA) on Wednesday and cascading delays required being rebooked three times because of missed connections, until I finally convinced them to forget about ATL and rebook me to PDX and an AS connection home.

I didn't look into the reasons (ATL thunderstorms?) But there network was a mess on Wednesday. My final AS flight was delayed by an hour because a delayed SEA flight was blocking the gate, but I was happy to get home in my intended day with a few more AS miles in my account.

Check out AS performance vs. DL next time it snows in ATL.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4993
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:51 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
ASMVPGOLD wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Sometimes, you just have to whack the schedule to recover quickly.
Pushing through can create a 3 day nightmare of out-of-place and out-of-time crews, as well as airplanes, maint cycles, etc.

In my experience, the biggest breakdowns at hubs occur when the next shift can’t get in due to the weather. Better to carve the schedule than leave planes on taxiways with timed out crews waiting for gates they have no one to service.

In recent years, the airlines have decided that it is better to take the hit now, than deal with all of the downline issues and customer complaints from it. Imagine what would have happened had Twitter been around during the 90’s “Clinton Blizzard” in Detroit?


Which was kind of my whole point... AS made the decision this morning to pull the plug (at least for the AM departures), other airlines (including DL) were operating fine this morning. WN's 6am to SJC was a go... AS cancelled. DL's crews didn't seem to have an issue getting to the airport for the morning departures (there was some ice, but roads weren't terrible.) So it was an AS focused decision. It wasn't a perfect weather day (near freezing, light snowfall, a little snow on the ground from Tues/Wed), but it wasn't a "bad weather day". If the operation can't keep moving forward on a day like today, then we are going to have a lot of days where AS decides to just cancel and go home. I suspect the limited deicing equipment along with the lack of ramp space to move planes around for deicing is the limiting factor. If it was a crew availability decision: then maybe (and this is entirely possible) AS made the right decision and decided to not take a risk, and other airlines did take a risk and just got lucky that everyone made it to the airport.

It takes more than just flight crews to run an op. How many ramp and gate call offs did they have? How about the contractors?

The one thing I have have noticed, much more in recent years than in the past, is that the HQ Operations staff always make it in, come snow, ice, fog, whatever. The low-paid station staff however, are not nearly as committed anymore. Why deal with an icy rush hour drive and a cold crappy day on the ramp for $13 an hour, or whatever the Sea-Tac minimum wage is these days, when you can just take a paid sick day?

For most, it isn’t the respected “Glamour” job it used to be.


I suspect a major issue is manpower on the ramp. Especially when it comes to deicing. Most of the driving jobs are seasonal, and the pay is..... Meh. I can almost guarantee this is the biggest issue happening in SEA right now. I'm sure DL also struggled with it, but they have their own deicing team.

Seattle isn't setup for major snow events. An inch is all it takes to royally screw everything up here. On the plus side, these events are pretty rare, as we rarely get much snow.
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1536
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:54 pm

If they hadn't canceled what they did, people would be complaining that they should have cancelled more. Compared to past years, I think AS is doing much better this time around...yes, they could roll the dice and see if they can make it through, but they took a lot of heat last year for the same yearly outcome of having to give up 3/4 of the way through the day due to a complete meltdown.

The days and days of trying to play catch up doesn't seem to be an issue this time. Yes, for 1 person or 1 flight, being severely delayed might be better than no flight at all, but the whole operation trying to chase its tail to catch up like that and impacting flights well after the storm puts a strain on everyone involved.

One thing I just read, which I hadn't heard about before, is SEA has very little room to do deicing besides at the gates, which is both slower to accomplish due to the amount of physical space around the plane and gates get tied up for much longer turns than normal...so running a full schedule without cancellations just creates a huge logjam of planes waiting for gates and then that just creates a ripple effect. Looking at a map, there does seem to be a lack of open areas to do deicing.
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3841
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:06 pm

As expected, the AS fanboys are here to defend "their" airline as if they have something to gain from it? I'll never understand it. The average passenger affected by any of this doesn't care about excuses...and there are plenty to be had here.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11768
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:10 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
Isn’t Alaska’s operation twice that of Delta’s? Just because Delta is a larger airline doesn’t mean that the SEA operation is comparable to AS. Kind of amazing people are stupidly trying to compare the two. Delta had 0% mainline but how many mainline flights do they have compared to Alaska? I’m guessing significantly less.

Just some examples:


SEA-LAX; AS 12 mainline, DL 6 mainline
SEA-SFO; AS 9 mainline, DL 1 mainline/4 ERJ
SEA-SLC; AS 3 mainline, DL 6 mainline
SEA-LAS; AS 8 mainline, DL 5 mainline
SEA-PHX; AS 9 mainline, DL 5 mainline
SEA-MSP; AS 2 mainline, DL 5 mainline

And AS flies mainline to smaller airports out of SEA. Doesn’t absolve AS, but it isn’t smart to try to compare the two.


I gave you data AS mainline to DL mainline from a respected source, limited to KSEA, not systemwide. Apparently some people object to objective data.

You can't solve the problem unless you acknowledge the problem.
 
d8s
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:13 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
ASMVPGOLD wrote:
Seattle has had a little bit of weather the last few days and once again KSEA weather ops has failed :-/. Based on the departure boards... AS has simply thrown in the towel on today and cancelled most of their Seattle departures. There has to be a better way to do AS's winter ops at KSEA that don't completely shut down the operation when we get 1/2 of snow or the temps are near freezing. DL (and other airlines) seems to be doing mostly okay this morning, so it seems it is more of an AS problem then the airport (but I know deicing ops are still a challenge.)

I hope everyone traveling through KSEA this week can find a way to get where they are going.


Most of their departures? That's not even close to true. Yes, most in the morning, but AS is generally fine this afternoon and evening


They preemptively cancelled over 100 of their 350 daily departures, I would call that overkill. And yes, MOST of their morning depatures were cancelled. The snow wasn't that heavy and it cleared quite quickly.
 
d8s
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:16 pm

airportugal310 wrote:
As expected, the AS fanboys are here to defend "their" airline as if they have something to gain from it? I'll never understand it. The average passenger affected by any of this doesn't care about excuses...and there are plenty to be had here.


As an AS 100K "Fan Boy" I am happy I wasn't flying that day. They cancelled a lot of flights and left few options, I would have been pissed off at them and would have let corporate know.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4703
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:16 pm

d8s wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
ASMVPGOLD wrote:
Seattle has had a little bit of weather the last few days and once again KSEA weather ops has failed :-/. Based on the departure boards... AS has simply thrown in the towel on today and cancelled most of their Seattle departures. There has to be a better way to do AS's winter ops at KSEA that don't completely shut down the operation when we get 1/2 of snow or the temps are near freezing. DL (and other airlines) seems to be doing mostly okay this morning, so it seems it is more of an AS problem then the airport (but I know deicing ops are still a challenge.)

I hope everyone traveling through KSEA this week can find a way to get where they are going.


Most of their departures? That's not even close to true. Yes, most in the morning, but AS is generally fine this afternoon and evening


They preemptively cancelled over 100 of their 350 daily departures, I would call that overkill. And yes, MOST of their morning depatures were cancelled. The snow wasn't that heavy and it cleared quite quickly.


It's explained above why its not as simple as a little bit of snow. There are a lot of factors, like deicing and staffing. It's clear what AS did was reset to avoid cascading problems like they saw at the end of 2021 and beginning of 2022. That's not overkill.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4703
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:20 pm

airportugal310 wrote:
As expected, the AS fanboys are here to defend "their" airline as if they have something to gain from it? I'll never understand it. The average passenger affected by any of this doesn't care about excuses...and there are plenty to be had here.


I have nothing to gain, but its ridiculous to just come here and say it was light snow and AS shouldn't have cancelled as many as they did. That type of myopic thinking simply misses the complexity of airline operations. Either way, yes, regardless of complexity of operations, it definitely would suck to be a passenger - no one is diminishing their experience - its simply responding to these posters who think they can run an airline single-handedly.
 
d8s
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:21 pm

ASMVPGOLD wrote:
jerrydj wrote:
Yes they will. It holds the passengers seat on their booked flight. Unlike a cancel which potentially kicks the passenger out for a day, or even several, on their intended final destination.

DL does it some times because it knows it can operate the delayed flight. Says a lot more than AS.

ASFlyer wrote:

how many of those DL flights were delayed by five, six, ten, even 20 hours? DL will delay a flight by an entire day rather than actually cancel it.


I'd much rather get there late on DL then not at all on AS. Last year AS left me and my family stranded on vacation... TWICE! Both times AS sent me an email that my flight was cancelled and they had no alternate options to get me to my destination (which was back home in Seattle) for the next 4 days, therefore, they were not rebooking us, tickets (that I paid full fare for) were basically cancalled, they recommended that we didn travel, and to contact them for a refund (and I have status on AS.) I called up Southwest, booked and paid for a ticket, and got us home. Late is better than "never and you are on your own." For the last 25 years I have been the biggest fan of AS... was MVP Gold/Gold 75k for many of those years... but I do most of my flying on DL these days, and that is mainly because I have seen first hand the shift in AS from a once really amazing airline... so one that just moves people around and doesn't seem to really care anymore, while DL continues to impress me every time I fly them (full disclosure: I am Diamond+Million Miler on DL, so I likely see a premium experience vs. the average traveler... but still... it's the little things that matter and I have confidence in DL's ability to get me where I need to be.)


Once Brad left, the airline has gone into the dumpster. I am a 100K and love the people but am so tired of the airline's incompetence now. I called the MVP line for assistance and received a call back 28 hours later, after I made my own arrangements to fly home. I am a DL Diamond Medallion and think the DL "F" product is 1000x better than AS.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4703
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:22 pm

d8s wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
As expected, the AS fanboys are here to defend "their" airline as if they have something to gain from it? I'll never understand it. The average passenger affected by any of this doesn't care about excuses...and there are plenty to be had here.


As an AS 100K "Fan Boy" I am happy I wasn't flying that day. They cancelled a lot of flights and left few options, I would have been pissed off at them and would have let corporate know.


What would you expect them to do? If AS didn't stop the cascading effect this could have lasted days an impacted thousands of passengers. No doubt it would suck to be a passenger that day - but how did AS handle the displaced passengers? Did it find alternatives? If you don't know, its not appropriate to assume there were no options.
 
d8s
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:23 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
d8s wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Most of their departures? That's not even close to true. Yes, most in the morning, but AS is generally fine this afternoon and evening


They preemptively cancelled over 100 of their 350 daily departures, I would call that overkill. And yes, MOST of their morning depatures were cancelled. The snow wasn't that heavy and it cleared quite quickly.


It's explained above why its not as simple as a little bit of snow. There are a lot of factors, like deicing and staffing. It's clear what AS did was reset to avoid cascading problems like they saw at the end of 2021 and beginning of 2022. That's not overkill.


The snow was short term at Sea-Tac and turned to rain, with temps above freezing, no need to de-ice. PAE is another story, they were dumped on and the snow stayed.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4703
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:25 pm

d8s wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
d8s wrote:

They preemptively cancelled over 100 of their 350 daily departures, I would call that overkill. And yes, MOST of their morning depatures were cancelled. The snow wasn't that heavy and it cleared quite quickly.


It's explained above why its not as simple as a little bit of snow. There are a lot of factors, like deicing and staffing. It's clear what AS did was reset to avoid cascading problems like they saw at the end of 2021 and beginning of 2022. That's not overkill.


The snow was short term at Sea-Tac and turned to rain, with temps above freezing, no need to de-ice. PAE is another story, they were dumped on and the snow stayed.


That was an example of complexity of operational decisions. I could also add the cascading impacts from the day prior probably had a major impact on the morning operations.
 
ASMVPGOLD
Topic Author
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:05 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:14 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
d8s wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
As expected, the AS fanboys are here to defend "their" airline as if they have something to gain from it? I'll never understand it. The average passenger affected by any of this doesn't care about excuses...and there are plenty to be had here.


As an AS 100K "Fan Boy" I am happy I wasn't flying that day. They cancelled a lot of flights and left few options, I would have been pissed off at them and would have let corporate know.


What would you expect them to do? If AS didn't stop the cascading effect this could have lasted days an impacted thousands of passengers. No doubt it would suck to be a passenger that day - but how did AS handle the displaced passengers? Did it find alternatives? If you don't know, its not appropriate to assume there were no options.


The issue isn't that they cancelled all the AM departures... the issue is that the ops Seatac+AS) couldn't function with a light dusting of snow. AS shouldn't have to throw in the towel on days like this. 3"-6" of snow in Seattle, sure, likely going to just call it a day and cancel everything. But yesterday was not a "snow day"... it was cold, a little light white stuff fell from the sky (not measurable), and there was no expectations of heavy snow. I am just surprised that AS/Port of Seattle continue to melt down so quickly with even a hint of snow. And it comes back to my earlier question: Is yesterdays response acceptable (in the eyes of PoS and AS) to a little bit of snow?.. meaning that plan is just shut things down because our ops are not designed to handle it (although Seatac tweeted out the night before that they were ready to go to keep things moving even with a little snow) or are the leaders at AS and PoS looking at events like yesterday and saying "we need to fix this... would should be able to keep things moving on days like yesterday". I genuinely don't know the answer.
 
ASMVPGOLD
Topic Author
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:05 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:15 pm

[/quote]
I am a DL Diamond Medallion and think the DL "F" product is 1000x better than AS.[/quote]

Very much agree. and once you try the new 32N "F" product you will add another "0".
 
d8s
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:23 pm

ASMVPGOLD wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
d8s wrote:

As an AS 100K "Fan Boy" I am happy I wasn't flying that day. They cancelled a lot of flights and left few options, I would have been pissed off at them and would have let corporate know.


What would you expect them to do? If AS didn't stop the cascading effect this could have lasted days an impacted thousands of passengers. No doubt it would suck to be a passenger that day - but how did AS handle the displaced passengers? Did it find alternatives? If you don't know, its not appropriate to assume there were no options.


The issue isn't that they cancelled all the AM departures... the issue is that the ops Seatac+AS) couldn't function with a light dusting of snow. AS shouldn't have to throw in the towel on days like this. 3"-6" of snow in Seattle, sure, likely going to just call it a day and cancel everything. But yesterday was not a "snow day"... it was cold, a little light white stuff fell from the sky (not measurable), and there was no expectations of heavy snow. I am just surprised that AS/Port of Seattle continue to melt down so quickly with even a hint of snow. And it comes back to my earlier question: Is yesterdays response acceptable (in the eyes of PoS and AS) to a little bit of snow?.. meaning that plan is just shut things down because our ops are not designed to handle it (although Seatac tweeted out the night before that they were ready to go to keep things moving even with a little snow) or are the leaders at AS and PoS looking at events like yesterday and saying "we need to fix this... would should be able to keep things moving on days like yesterday". I genuinely don't know the answer.


I got a good chuckle from the Port of SEA tweet about how they were ready for the snow! If you noticed, they were also quick to point out what op areas were the airline responsibility.
 
d8s
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:24 pm

ASMVPGOLD wrote:

I am a DL Diamond Medallion and think the DL "F" product is 1000x better than AS.[/quote]

Very much agree. and once you try the new 32N "F" product you will add another "0".[/quote]

I look forward to adding that "0"! It will take a ton to add any "0" to the AS product.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 2062
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:45 am

ASMVPGOLD wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
d8s wrote:

As an AS 100K "Fan Boy" I am happy I wasn't flying that day. They cancelled a lot of flights and left few options, I would have been pissed off at them and would have let corporate know.


What would you expect them to do? If AS didn't stop the cascading effect this could have lasted days an impacted thousands of passengers. No doubt it would suck to be a passenger that day - but how did AS handle the displaced passengers? Did it find alternatives? If you don't know, its not appropriate to assume there were no options.


The issue isn't that they cancelled all the AM departures... the issue is that the ops Seatac+AS) couldn't function with a light dusting of snow. AS shouldn't have to throw in the towel on days like this. 3"-6" of snow in Seattle, sure, likely going to just call it a day and cancel everything. But yesterday was not a "snow day"... it was cold, a little light white stuff fell from the sky (not measurable), and there was no expectations of heavy snow. I am just surprised that AS/Port of Seattle continue to melt down so quickly with even a hint of snow. And it comes back to my earlier question: Is yesterdays response acceptable (in the eyes of PoS and AS) to a little bit of snow?.. meaning that plan is just shut things down because our ops are not designed to handle it (although Seatac tweeted out the night before that they were ready to go to keep things moving even with a little snow) or are the leaders at AS and PoS looking at events like yesterday and saying "we need to fix this... would should be able to keep things moving on days like yesterday". I genuinely don't know the answer.


Fundamentally, I don't disagree with you. That said, deicing at SEA is not as hassle free as it is at other airports that get snow on a more regular basis. Still, I don't disagree with you. There should be a plan. Just throwing the towel in doesn't seem the most customer friendly plan.
 
ASMVPGOLD
Topic Author
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:05 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:35 pm

It is 6:30am in Seattle on Saturday morning... some snow fell overnight but it will be a clear day today, once again, Alaska is cancelling their AM departures (other airlines at SEA are not). I will be interesting to watch things this morning to see how many more flights they cancel. Again... we did not have a snow storm, it simply snowed a bit overnight.

Image
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 2062
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:43 pm

ASMVPGOLD wrote:
It is 6:30am in Seattle on Saturday morning... some snow fell overnight but it will be a clear day today, once again, Alaska is cancelling their AM departures (other airlines at SEA are not). I will be interesting to watch things this morning to see how many more flights they cancel. Again... we did not have a snow storm, it simply snowed a bit overnight.

Image


It snowed for a good solid 6 hours + depending on where you are. I was in west Seattle and the snow started around 7pm and went until 4 to 5am or so. The roads are surprisingly good getting to the airport but there is a good 2-3 inches of snow on the ground in the middle of west Seattle.
 
sxf24
Posts: 2037
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:01 pm

ASMVPGOLD wrote:
It is 6:30am in Seattle on Saturday morning... some snow fell overnight but it will be a clear day today, once again, Alaska is cancelling their AM departures (other airlines at SEA are not). I will be interesting to watch things this morning to see how many more flights they cancel. Again... we did not have a snow storm, it simply snowed a bit overnight.

Image


One thing to remember is AS needs to turn their gates faster than other airlines at SEA. They have RONS, airplanes on handstands that get towed in after the RONS departs, and an early bank. It is near impossible to deice all of those departures without dedicated pads. DL has relatively fewer RONS making the morning a bit easier.

Other airlines only have RONS and if they’re slow to get off the gate, it usually doesn’t delay another arrival (and departure).
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6409
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:49 pm

sxf24 wrote:
ASMVPGOLD wrote:
It is 6:30am in Seattle on Saturday morning... some snow fell overnight but it will be a clear day today, once again, Alaska is cancelling their AM departures (other airlines at SEA are not). I will be interesting to watch things this morning to see how many more flights they cancel. Again... we did not have a snow storm, it simply snowed a bit overnight.

Image


One thing to remember is AS needs to turn their gates faster than other airlines at SEA. They have RONS, airplanes on handstands that get towed in after the RONS departs, and an early bank. It is near impossible to deice all of those departures without dedicated pads. DL has relatively fewer RONS making the morning a bit easier.

Other airlines only have RONS and if they’re slow to get off the gate, it usually doesn’t delay another arrival (and departure).

How many winters until SEA figures out how to de ice airplanes tho? No room for a pad?
 
sxf24
Posts: 2037
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:05 pm

32andBelow wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
ASMVPGOLD wrote:
It is 6:30am in Seattle on Saturday morning... some snow fell overnight but it will be a clear day today, once again, Alaska is cancelling their AM departures (other airlines at SEA are not). I will be interesting to watch things this morning to see how many more flights they cancel. Again... we did not have a snow storm, it simply snowed a bit overnight.

Image


One thing to remember is AS needs to turn their gates faster than other airlines at SEA. They have RONS, airplanes on handstands that get towed in after the RONS departs, and an early bank. It is near impossible to deice all of those departures without dedicated pads. DL has relatively fewer RONS making the morning a bit easier.

Other airlines only have RONS and if they’re slow to get off the gate, it usually doesn’t delay another arrival (and departure).

How many winters until SEA figures out how to de ice airplanes tho? No room for a pad?


No room for a pad unless cargo airlines are kicked out. Hard to justify the infrastructure for 2-3 days per year.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4993
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:41 am

jerrydj wrote:
You'd think AS would eventually figured out how to operate more professionally through a snow IROP at SEA. But this one proves for another year, their airport leadership and vendors are clueless and not on the same page.

Sure, cancels are going to happen. DL had some too. But this is yet another full-on multi-day meltdown. Embarrassing. And pathetic.


Reality is hard to accept. The company they contract to for deicing is a joke. It's a seasonal job, pays garbage, and no benefits. Einstein himself would agree that this is an ultimate setup for failure. They just don't have the staffing to make it work.

I noticed Delta did fairly well in this event, granted they don't have nearly as many flights. But!! It's still a hub for them, and they have their very own out there deicing planes. I really don't understand why Alaska continues this path of relying on subcontractors at it's biggest hub. The bottom line looks great financially, but when it hits the fan, the costs have to be insane. I think Alaska just needs to accept the fact, and bring their very own ramp operation back. McGee I know is owned by Alaska, but it's just past the time they fix this mess.
 
LAXBUR
Posts: 498
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:01 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
Isn’t Alaska’s operation twice that of Delta’s? Just because Delta is a larger airline doesn’t mean that the SEA operation is comparable to AS. Kind of amazing people are stupidly trying to compare the two. Delta had 0% mainline but how many mainline flights do they have compared to Alaska? I’m guessing significantly less.

Just some examples:


SEA-LAX; AS 12 mainline, DL 6 mainline
SEA-SFO; AS 9 mainline, DL 1 mainline/4 ERJ
SEA-SLC; AS 3 mainline, DL 6 mainline
SEA-LAS; AS 8 mainline, DL 5 mainline
SEA-PHX; AS 9 mainline, DL 5 mainline
SEA-MSP; AS 2 mainline, DL 5 mainline

And AS flies mainline to smaller airports out of SEA. Doesn’t absolve AS, but it isn’t smart to try to compare the two.


I gave you data AS mainline to DL mainline from a respected source, limited to KSEA, not systemwide. Apparently some people object to objective data.

You can't solve the problem unless you acknowledge the problem.


lol.
 
LAXBUR
Posts: 498
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:06 am

PacificWest wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
Isn’t Alaska’s operation twice that of Delta’s? Just because Delta is a larger airline doesn’t mean that the SEA operation is comparable to AS. Kind of amazing people are stupidly trying to compare the two. Delta had 0% mainline but how many mainline flights do they have compared to Alaska? I’m guessing significantly less.

Just some examples:


SEA-LAX; AS 12 mainline, DL 6 mainline
SEA-SFO; AS 9 mainline, DL 1 mainline/4 ERJ
SEA-SLC; AS 3 mainline, DL 6 mainline
SEA-LAS; AS 8 mainline, DL 5 mainline
SEA-PHX; AS 9 mainline, DL 5 mainline
SEA-MSP; AS 2 mainline, DL 5 mainline

And AS flies mainline to smaller airports out of SEA. Doesn’t absolve AS, but it isn’t smart to try to compare the two.


If only Alaska didn't gut their PDX schedules and force all connecting traffic to Seattle.

Nah, better to just dump capacity and use up gate as much gate space in SEA so that DL can't have it...amirite?!


Delta could ramp up Portland. But they haven’t either. Maybe because…the money isn’t there? lol
 
PacificWest
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 3:52 pm

Re: KSEA weather - looks like AS is just giving up today

Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:09 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
PacificWest wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
Isn’t Alaska’s operation twice that of Delta’s? Just because Delta is a larger airline doesn’t mean that the SEA operation is comparable to AS. Kind of amazing people are stupidly trying to compare the two. Delta had 0% mainline but how many mainline flights do they have compared to Alaska? I’m guessing significantly less.

Just some examples:


SEA-LAX; AS 12 mainline, DL 6 mainline
SEA-SFO; AS 9 mainline, DL 1 mainline/4 ERJ
SEA-SLC; AS 3 mainline, DL 6 mainline
SEA-LAS; AS 8 mainline, DL 5 mainline
SEA-PHX; AS 9 mainline, DL 5 mainline
SEA-MSP; AS 2 mainline, DL 5 mainline

And AS flies mainline to smaller airports out of SEA. Doesn’t absolve AS, but it isn’t smart to try to compare the two.


If only Alaska didn't gut their PDX schedules and force all connecting traffic to Seattle.

Nah, better to just dump capacity and use up gate as much gate space in SEA so that DL can't have it...amirite?!


Delta could ramp up Portland. But they haven’t either. Maybe because…the money isn’t there? lol


Between the two carriers there's 20-25 non-stops a day from Portland to Seattle -- It's almost all connecting traffic. I get that Seattle is a lucrative turf war, but it's been at Portland's expense -- non-stop airfares out of Portland have routinely been 30%+ more expensive than the same destination n/s's out of Seattle.

Small cities in the PNW that once had 4-5 flights a day to Portland and 3 to Seattle -- now have 6 to Seattle to and 1-2 to Portland. They're forcing all connecting traffic through Seattle -- and it's too bad because Portland is a much nicer less hectic airport. Alaska knows this and it's why a lot of connecting traffic went through Portland. But now Alaska is prioritizing the Seattle turf far over customer experience IMO.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos