Some very exciting news for Canadians.

Porter is dishing out all the trimmings for their new inflight service. From free WiFi, fresh meals, enhanced legroom and a new all-inclusive economy experience among features added to existing signature onboard service. I wonder how this will all play out as Canada, in the economy cabin, has been lacking many complimentary inflight amenities for decades now.

Wishing Porter success and hopefully this transcends into permanent trend for Canadian carriers to follow suit perhaps. Good for Porter and good for Canada.

The press release: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/p ... 40719.html

I don’t understand how the market will sustain 50 new jets from Porter alone…..by 2025

isnt this how PD started?!?

usxguy wrote:

isnt this how PD started?!?

Well, they didn't really change. Their economy offering still is free wine and beer etc. Hopefully they'll ditch the checked bag fees

Hopefully this new product plus their new venture with Air Transat will help them be one of the companies to push through all the new airlines that have come to the plate. They certainly have a good reputation on the east coast including Quebec.

I for one am very excited to see where this will go. Especially with the delivery schedule of around 3 E2s per month once certification comes.

With the ULCC market in Canada getting crowded, this is a good move to compete. I have never heard a negative comment from various people who have flown on Porter over the years, I can imagine the refined E-2 service will only make things better. It sure is nice to see a North American carrier looking to enhance service rather than take it away in economy class.

Chasensfo wrote:

With the ULCC market in Canada getting crowded, this is a good move to compete. I have never heard a negative comment from various people who have flown on Porter over the years, I can imagine the refined E-2 service will only make things better. It sure is nice to see a North American carrier looking to enhance service rather than take it away in economy class.

I second this.

AS needs a Canadian airline partner...I hope Porter considers joining Alaska's Mileage Plan and vice-versa...yeah, wishful thinking.

There is definitely a market for this premium style service, but is it large enough for 50 planes in Canada?

There are several companies that offer premium upscale services from the New York area to South Florida either on heavy private jets or RJ’s converted to 16, 24, or even 30 seats. XO, Blade, and Vista, among others. Seats can run from $1,500-$5,000 each this season, depending on demand, and it is VERY hard to get space on peak days and weekends.

The Blade option with connecting Helicopter service from Manhattan to White Plains is popular.

There is a demand for premium level services, in the right configuration and price point.

cirrusdragoon wrote:

Chasensfo wrote:

With the ULCC market in Canada getting crowded, this is a good move to compete. I have never heard a negative comment from various people who have flown on Porter over the years, I can imagine the refined E-2 service will only make things better. It sure is nice to see a North American carrier looking to enhance service rather than take it away in economy class.

I second this.

There has never been an airline in North America flying transport sized aircraft that offered a “better” Economy experience that has been successful. Never.

And there have been a lot of very capable contenders offering stellar products. MGM Grand Air, Midwest Express (v1), Legend, AirOne, McClain, Air Atlanta. Heck, even in Canada we had Astoria, Roots Air, Harmony, Wardair ….. All predicated on the premise that they would attract a premium price for a premium product. It didn’t happen.

Granted, we on this website being “informed” would fly them, but the average traveller will just pick the cheapest fare. Even Porter themselves, in 15 years of operations never generated an operating profit, starting out with a “premium” product.

The suggestion of all premium travel from New York to Florida is cute. But Canada has no market that could support such a product. And certainly not in a 132 Y seat Embraer. Some carriers have tried such a configuration like Astoria and CP Attaché. It was not a success.

CrewBunk wrote:

Even Porter themselves, in 15 years of operations never generated an operating profit, starting out with a “premium” product.

The suggestion of all premium travel from New York to Florida is cute. But Canada has no market that could support such a product. And certainly not in a 132 Y seat Embraer. Some carriers have tried such a configuration like Astoria and CP Attaché. It was not a success.

I'm not sure what you're going on about now.

'PorterClassic' is just a Y product that serves a few free alcoholic beverages...

'PorterReserve' just seems to be your regular premium economy class product...

All in all, a pretty standard offering compared to other North American carriers, but apparently with a pretty good marketing pitch if it's got you concerned.

Airlinerdude wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Even Porter themselves, in 15 years of operations never generated an operating profit, starting out with a “premium” product.

The suggestion of all premium travel from New York to Florida is cute. But Canada has no market that could support such a product. And certainly not in a 132 Y seat Embraer. Some carriers have tried such a configuration like Astoria and CP Attaché. It was not a success.

I'm not sure what you're going on about now.

'PorterClassic' is just a Y product that serves a few free alcoholic beverages...

'PorterReserve' just seems to be your regular premium economy class product...

All in all, a pretty standard offering compared to other North American carriers, but apparently with a pretty good marketing pitch if it's got you concerned.

But glassware, free booze, free wifi, enhanced inclusive meals, all of this costs money and they want to expand this to an additional 50 airplanes potentially more……hello significant increases costs

777luver wrote:

Airlinerdude wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Even Porter themselves, in 15 years of operations never generated an operating profit, starting out with a “premium” product.

The suggestion of all premium travel from New York to Florida is cute. But Canada has no market that could support such a product. And certainly not in a 132 Y seat Embraer. Some carriers have tried such a configuration like Astoria and CP Attaché. It was not a success.

I'm not sure what you're going on about now.

'PorterClassic' is just a Y product that serves a few free alcoholic beverages...

'PorterReserve' just seems to be your regular premium economy class product...

All in all, a pretty standard offering compared to other North American carriers, but apparently with a pretty good marketing pitch if it's got you concerned.

But glassware, free booze, free wifi, enhanced inclusive meals, all of this costs money and they want to expand this to an additional 50 airplanes potentially more……hello significant increases costs

Glassware’s reusability vs plastic, despite being slightly heavier, in the long run is arguably no more expensive and better for the environment. PD aren’t going to be offering anything outlandish like an all-J cabin. In fact they will be comparable to Rouge, both in configuration and aircraft seat capacity vs the RV319s except that the wifi is included in your fare and the Y seat will be more comfortable with better pitch and very akin to Euro network carriers with a C, Y+, Y cabin. Only C has food and a “free” checked bag included…no different than J on AC or Premium Rouge. Network wide booze is the only true premium perk (that probably no more than 20% of pax actually take advantage of) and complimentary PD’s snacks are better than the big two.

I’m rooting for Porter. WestJet’s eastern retreat certainly gives them an opening as does AC’s presently significant shrinking of YOW, PD’s second largest base and future PD jet base.

Airlinerdude wrote:

All in all, a pretty standard offering compared to other North American carriers, but apparently with a pretty good marketing pitch if it's got you concerned.

Concerned! LOL Hardly

This business intrigues me. I am curious what their game plan is. What are they offering that Westjet (for example) didn’t? And why do they think it will be successful? A lot of very capable airlines have tried to compete with Air Canada in the east. I have to wonder what Air Canada is doing that competitors are not and why passengers are staying.

Yes, marketing is great. Another fascinating part of the business. I read through the lines too and agree, I see nothing special. Free wifi is cool, Air Canada started that in premium cabins as well, and I’m guessing Westjet will follow, it’s becoming standard.

I’ve been around a long time, (retiring soon) and one thing I’ve noticed is that Air Canada watches the competition closely and are not afraid to compete. I’ve seen things like free alcohol in domestic Y, blocked off centre seats, Y meals on china, free hot hor’oeuvres in Y, etc. But, I’d be really surprised if they give Porter a lot of attention.

777luver wrote:

I don’t understand how the market will sustain 50 new jets from Porter alone…..by 2025

This ^

Flair/Lynx/Porter all plan on having at least 50+ jets each in the next few years. There's going to be a serious bloodbath forming at some point. The new Porter product looks interesting, however I just can't see where exactly it fits in, especially when the core YTZ ops seem to be on not the most stable ground.

I'm curious where there will find space for all this in galley.

CrewBunk wrote:

Airlinerdude wrote:

All in all, a pretty standard offering compared to other North American carriers, but apparently with a pretty good marketing pitch if it's got you concerned.

Concerned! LOL Hardly

This business intrigues me. I am curious what their game plan is. What are they offering that Westjet (for example) didn’t? And why do they think it will be successful? A lot of very capable airlines have tried to compete with Air Canada in the east. I have to wonder what Air Canada is doing that competitors are not and why passengers are staying.

Yes, marketing is great. Another fascinating part of the business. I read through the lines too and agree, I see nothing special. Free wifi is cool, Air Canada started that in premium cabins as well, and I’m guessing Westjet will follow, it’s becoming standard.

I’ve been around a long time, (retiring soon) and one thing I’ve noticed is that Air Canada watches the competition closely and are not afraid to compete. I’ve seen things like free alcohol in domestic Y, blocked off centre seats, Y meals on china, free hot hor’oeuvres in Y, etc. But, I’d be really surprised if they give Porter a lot of attention.

You know, if they started off much more slowly and not with ordering 50 planes I could see the strategy potentially working but excessive growth in a mature market like Canada probably won't end very well.

I see airline consolidation in Canada sometime in the near future. Too many players in too small of a market. Perhaps more mergers and acquisitions are on the horizon.

From my understanding it seems like atleast Porter isnt going in the ULCC direction like Jetlines, Lynx and Flair. In which my opinion only 1 of those 3 will still be around come next year or so. They seem to just be focusing on the economy and premium economy market and instead of giving you a minimalistic travel experience they try to elevate it and make economy travel more enjoyable. Something that has been lacking in Canada for some time.

CrewBunk wrote:

Airlinerdude wrote:

All in all, a pretty standard offering compared to other North American carriers, but apparently with a pretty good marketing pitch if it's got you concerned.

Concerned! LOL Hardly

This business intrigues me. I am curious what their game plan is. What are they offering that Westjet (for example) didn’t? And why do they think it will be successful? A lot of very capable airlines have tried to compete with Air Canada in the east. I have to wonder what Air Canada is doing that competitors are not and why passengers are staying.

Yes, marketing is great. Another fascinating part of the business. I read through the lines too and agree, I see nothing special. Free wifi is cool, Air Canada started that in premium cabins as well, and I’m guessing Westjet will follow, it’s becoming standard.

I’ve been around a long time, (retiring soon) and one thing I’ve noticed is that Air Canada watches the competition closely and are not afraid to compete. I’ve seen things like free alcohol in domestic Y, blocked off centre seats, Y meals on china, free hot hor’oeuvres in Y, etc. But, I’d be really surprised if they give Porter a lot of attention.

What Air Canada has, that others don't, is the network! Their Canadian, North American, and European network is by far the biggest, and the airline in the 2nd place is far away.

What I don't understand is Porter's partnership with Transat. I know where this is coming from, but their brands and target audiences are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Porter strikes me as an airline that is centered around business travelers: point to point, small cabins, small airport with quick turnaround, etc..., whereas Transat caters to vacationers, who are okay being at the airport at 3 am to save a few hundred dollars on family vacation. Going forward, I guess we'll see more shorts and flipflops on Porter, and more business suits on Transat

CrewBunk wrote:

Airlinerdude wrote:

All in all, a pretty standard offering compared to other North American carriers, but apparently with a pretty good marketing pitch if it's got you concerned.

Concerned! LOL Hardly

This business intrigues me. I am curious what their game plan is. What are they offering that Westjet (for example) didn’t? And why do they think it will be successful? A lot of very capable airlines have tried to compete with Air Canada in the east. I have to wonder what Air Canada is doing that competitors are not and why passengers are staying.

Yes, marketing is great. Another fascinating part of the business. I read through the lines too and agree, I see nothing special. Free wifi is cool, Air Canada started that in premium cabins as well, and I’m guessing Westjet will follow, it’s becoming standard.

I’ve been around a long time, (retiring soon) and one thing I’ve noticed is that Air Canada watches the competition closely and are not afraid to compete. I’ve seen things like free alcohol in domestic Y, blocked off centre seats, Y meals on china, free hot hor’oeuvres in Y, etc. But, I’d be really surprised if they give Porter a lot of attention.

The one thing Porter has that really nobody else has ever (with one old exception below) had post-domestic deregulation in the east vs AC is a strong, loyal following. CP couldn’t ever achieve that to any great extent and WS most definitely hasn’t, nor any of the others that have come & gone, except for Wardair but once they abandoned their leisure model, they were doomed as CP & especially AC ganged up on them…Max Ward’s book reveals a lot from that era…and I imagine @ Crew Bunk can relate to that.

The question is, can PD build that out as they enter the jet age and where the percentage of their network that is shielded by YTZ drops from 80% to 20%. They’ve got a fighting chance given that loyalty that’s already been built up. For example, even if not by total seats, but by departure count and local loyalty, PD for a decade have been light years ahead of WS in the regard around the NCR. You can argue to a lesser extent, but still true for them around Montreal too. In any event, it’s going to be fun to watch. Lynx and Flair should just merge now as a single stronger player. Jetlines is a joke. I’ll be shocked if they are still around this time next year.

CrewBunk wrote:

cirrusdragoon wrote:

Chasensfo wrote:

With the ULCC market in Canada getting crowded, this is a good move to compete. I have never heard a negative comment from various people who have flown on Porter over the years, I can imagine the refined E-2 service will only make things better. It sure is nice to see a North American carrier looking to enhance service rather than take it away in economy class.

I second this.

There has never been an airline in North America flying transport sized aircraft that offered a “better” Economy experience that has been successful. Never.

Greater seat pitch but without more seat width. I don't get it. Fast sat Wifi is on a path to becoming free in North America. (JetBlue doesn't do much in Canada, but Delta serves a few cities.) How much do you think people will pay for glassware? Meals? There's already an established fare premium for Y+ pitch.

MIflyer12 wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

cirrusdragoon wrote:

I second this.

There has never been an airline in North America flying transport sized aircraft that offered a “better” Economy experience that has been successful. Never.

Greater seat pitch but without more seat width. I don't get it. Fast sat Wifi is on a path to becoming free in North America. (JetBlue doesn't do much in Canada, but Delta serves a few cities.) How much do you think people will pay for glassware? Meals? There's already an established fare premium for Y+ pitch.

I guess you’ve never flown C class in Europe before? A Y++ seat with the food and baggage perks of North American J. It’s pretty much WestJet’s old Plus seat plus food as WS shifted away from their LCC roots.

C class will probably cost half of AC J.

Dominion301 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

There has never been an airline in North America flying transport sized aircraft that offered a “better” Economy experience that has been successful. Never.

Greater seat pitch but without more seat width. I don't get it. Fast sat Wifi is on a path to becoming free in North America. (JetBlue doesn't do much in Canada, but Delta serves a few cities.) How much do you think people will pay for glassware? Meals? There's already an established fare premium for Y+ pitch.

I guess you’ve never flown C class in Europe before? A Y++ seat with the food and baggage perks of North American J. It’s pretty much WestJet’s old Plus seat plus food as WS shifted away from their LCC roots.

C class will probably cost half of AC J.

I have. North Americans roundly mock European C for good reason. It's a surcharge for pitifully meager product improvements.

MIflyer12 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

Greater seat pitch but without more seat width. I don't get it. Fast sat Wifi is on a path to becoming free in North America. (JetBlue doesn't do much in Canada, but Delta serves a few cities.) How much do you think people will pay for glassware? Meals? There's already an established fare premium for Y+ pitch.

I guess you’ve never flown C class in Europe before? A Y++ seat with the food and baggage perks of North American J. It’s pretty much WestJet’s old Plus seat plus food as WS shifted away from their LCC roots.

C class will probably cost half of AC J.

I have. North Americans roundly mock European C for good reason. It's a surcharge for pitifully meager product improvements.

So have I (and I've even had it on that rare bird an AF 318 to boot ) and yes for six abreast, it's a bit of a joke in terms of comfort, but I have had delicious food on the couple of times I've been able to do so...on par with Canadian North whom I've always considered to be the gold standard for food in a non-J class seat...hell 5T are better than J food in a lot of cases. With 2x2 on the E-Jets already being rather spacious, I guess PD decided for product consistency with Island ops that it made sense to offer a uniform product across the board...even though AC don't do so on the Dashes. Time will tell if it was a good or not-so-good choice.

It's not mentioned in the Press release linked above, or in the discussion above that I saw, but it's now being reported that Porter will be flying out of YYZ (first routes are to YUL and YOW, starting February 2023), as well as YVR on the E-195s:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/porter ... -1.6678658

Competing with AC and WJ on those routes... is anyone else experiencing deja vu?

CrewBunk wrote:

Airlinerdude wrote:

All in all, a pretty standard offering compared to other North American carriers, but apparently with a pretty good marketing pitch if it's got you concerned.

Concerned! LOL Hardly

This business intrigues me. I am curious what their game plan is. What are they offering that Westjet (for example) didn’t? And why do they think it will be successful? A lot of very capable airlines have tried to compete with Air Canada in the east. I have to wonder what Air Canada is doing that competitors are not and why passengers are staying.

Yes, marketing is great. Another fascinating part of the business. I read through the lines too and agree, I see nothing special. Free wifi is cool, Air Canada started that in premium cabins as well, and I’m guessing Westjet will follow, it’s becoming standard.

I’ve been around a long time, (retiring soon) and one thing I’ve noticed is that Air Canada watches the competition closely and are not afraid to compete. I’ve seen things like free alcohol in domestic Y, blocked off centre seats, Y meals on china, free hot hor’oeuvres in Y, etc. But, I’d be really surprised if they give Porter a lot of attention.

For many who travel a lot within central/eastern Canada, Porter is already more compelling than WestJet. Good frequencies on main routes, good inflight product and downtown airport location. This latest move allows the Porter traveller more options when flying elsewhere. Air Canada is my first choice, but Porter has already been my second -- not WestJet.

I've actually long said that I thought that buying Porter might make sense for WestJet's owner. The networks are not complementary from an airline operations perspective due to the twin hubs, but for the passenger the two combined together are more compelling than either apart. And buying them would take a competitor out of the market (which I suspect is Porter's strategy with this expansion anyway -- to be enough of an irritant that they get bought).

drgmobile wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Airlinerdude wrote:

All in all, a pretty standard offering compared to other North American carriers, but apparently with a pretty good marketing pitch if it's got you concerned.

Concerned! LOL Hardly

This business intrigues me. I am curious what their game plan is. What are they offering that Westjet (for example) didn’t? And why do they think it will be successful? A lot of very capable airlines have tried to compete with Air Canada in the east. I have to wonder what Air Canada is doing that competitors are not and why passengers are staying.

Yes, marketing is great. Another fascinating part of the business. I read through the lines too and agree, I see nothing special. Free wifi is cool, Air Canada started that in premium cabins as well, and I’m guessing Westjet will follow, it’s becoming standard.

I’ve been around a long time, (retiring soon) and one thing I’ve noticed is that Air Canada watches the competition closely and are not afraid to compete. I’ve seen things like free alcohol in domestic Y, blocked off centre seats, Y meals on china, free hot hor’oeuvres in Y, etc. But, I’d be really surprised if they give Porter a lot of attention.

For many who travel a lot within central/eastern Canada, Porter is already more compelling than WestJet. Good frequencies on main routes, good inflight product and downtown airport location. This latest move allows the Porter traveller more options when flying elsewhere. Air Canada is my first choice, but Porter has already been my second -- not WestJet.

I've actually long said that I thought that buying Porter might make sense for WestJet's owner. The networks are not complementary from an airline operations perspective due to the twin hubs, but for the passenger the two combined together are more compelling than either apart. And buying them would take a competitor out of the market (which I suspect is Porter's strategy with this expansion anyway -- to be enough of an irritant that they get bought).

I've always thought a 3-way merger with WestJet, Porter and Air Transat would create a formidable #2 national carrier in Canada. Hubs in YYC, YYZ and YUL with focus cities in YVR, YEG, YWG and YOW. A strong domestic network, relatively strong transborder network and a respectable long-haul network too.

Noise wrote:

drgmobile wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Concerned! LOL Hardly

This business intrigues me. I am curious what their game plan is. What are they offering that Westjet (for example) didn’t? And why do they think it will be successful? A lot of very capable airlines have tried to compete with Air Canada in the east. I have to wonder what Air Canada is doing that competitors are not and why passengers are staying.

Yes, marketing is great. Another fascinating part of the business. I read through the lines too and agree, I see nothing special. Free wifi is cool, Air Canada started that in premium cabins as well, and I’m guessing Westjet will follow, it’s becoming standard.

I’ve been around a long time, (retiring soon) and one thing I’ve noticed is that Air Canada watches the competition closely and are not afraid to compete. I’ve seen things like free alcohol in domestic Y, blocked off centre seats, Y meals on china, free hot hor’oeuvres in Y, etc. But, I’d be really surprised if they give Porter a lot of attention.

For many who travel a lot within central/eastern Canada, Porter is already more compelling than WestJet. Good frequencies on main routes, good inflight product and downtown airport location. This latest move allows the Porter traveller more options when flying elsewhere. Air Canada is my first choice, but Porter has already been my second -- not WestJet.

I've actually long said that I thought that buying Porter might make sense for WestJet's owner. The networks are not complementary from an airline operations perspective due to the twin hubs, but for the passenger the two combined together are more compelling than either apart. And buying them would take a competitor out of the market (which I suspect is Porter's strategy with this expansion anyway -- to be enough of an irritant that they get bought).

I've always thought a 3-way merger with WestJet, Porter and Air Transat would create a formidable #2 national carrier in Canada. Hubs in YYC, YYZ and YUL with focus cities in YVR, YEG, YWG and YOW. A strong domestic network, relatively strong transborder network and a respectable long-haul network too.

I don't think a merger would make much sense, particularly with Transat. These are not culturally complementary companies, and WestJet already is expanding its leisure marketshare by buying Sunwing. Sunwing doesn't give them additional long haul aircraft, but they don't need to buy an airline for that, nor does it help as much with the Quebec leisure market but I also am not sure that's enough of a reason to buy a second leisure carrier.

For WestJet and Porter, you could leave them separate but have them be part of the same loyalty program and perhaps transfer some aircraft to WestJet (i.e. some of the Embraers). They could achieve operational efficiencies by pooling back-end administration, procurement, etc.. without having to go through the hassle of a full merger.

YYZYYT wrote:

It's not mentioned in the Press release linked above, or in the discussion above that I saw, but it's now being reported that Porter will be flying out of YYZ (first routes are to YUL and YOW, starting February 2023), as well as YVR on the E-195s:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/porter ... -1.6678658

Competing with AC and WJ on those routes... is anyone else experiencing deja vu?

Maybe. It's a different era, though - a different generation, people who are open to travel more even if they're bankrupt. There are also far a lot more people traveling along the YYZ-YUL corridor now than there were 20 years ago. I don't have the stats, but I won't surprised if most of the traffic on shuttle routes are to connect to other flights. Again, compare the international traffic at major hubs now, vs. 20 years ago.

This might be a silly question, but I wonder if PD will have any kind of partnership with the UP Express trains or develop a rapid coach bus service between YTZ and YYZ, to help out with moving not just passengers but staff between the two sites? Maybe not on day 1 but as the E95 network grows out of Pearson. Full disclosure, I live in YVR and have no idea how far the YTZ terminal is from Union Station…but from an outsiders point of view it seems like it would be handy as the complimentary network at YYZ grows in relation to the YTZ hub.

I looked at a dummy booking YVR-YYZ on PD and the most restrictive Y fare doesn’t even include a free carry-on bag, so I wouldn’t say they’re exactly aiming for Wardair service levels in the back of the cabin. But free wi-fi, a couple of drinks…pretty competitive offering against WS and the ULCCs in this traveller’s humble opinion.

I love you guys! Wishful thinking, but could some form of Porter service maybe come to secondary or tertiary northern U.S. markets (MKE in my case) to run AC's CR2 torture devices out of town??

GSPSPOT wrote:

I love you guys! Wishful thinking, but could some form of Porter service maybe come to secondary or tertiary northern U.S. markets (MKE in my case) to run AC's CR2 torture devices out of town??

Considering they're ordering 50+ planes, years down the track they might try? But AC's network is unparalleled and that's the main reason why these secondary US markets have AC service anyways.

CrewBunk wrote:

cirrusdragoon wrote:

Chasensfo wrote:

With the ULCC market in Canada getting crowded, this is a good move to compete. I have never heard a negative comment from various people who have flown on Porter over the years, I can imagine the refined E-2 service will only make things better. It sure is nice to see a North American carrier looking to enhance service rather than take it away in economy class.

I second this.

There has never been an airline in North America flying transport sized aircraft that offered a “better” Economy experience that has been successful. Never.

And there have been a lot of very capable contenders offering stellar products. MGM Grand Air, Midwest Express (v1), Legend, AirOne, McClain, Air Atlanta. Heck, even in Canada we had Astoria, Roots Air, Harmony, Wardair ….. All predicated on the premise that they would attract a premium price for a premium product. It didn’t happen.

Granted, we on this website being “informed” would fly them, but the average traveller will just pick the cheapest fare. Even Porter themselves, in 15 years of operations never generated an operating profit, starting out with a “premium” product.

The suggestion of all premium travel from New York to Florida is cute. But Canada has no market that could support such a product. And certainly not in a 132 Y seat Embraer. Some carriers have tried such a configuration like Astoria and CP Attaché. It was not a success.

JetBlue? Virgin America? Sheesh

Chasensfo wrote:

JetBlue? Virgin America? Sheesh

Sheesh?

Virgin America was definitely not a success. Had Alaska not rescued them, I doubt they’d still be around. The world was rooting for them, much like we are all rooting for Porter, but their quarterly results were not encouraging.

JetBlue? I don’t see them as any different from any other American carrier. Do they even have the blue crisps any more. (They didn’t, the last time I flew with them).

CrewBunk wrote:

Airlinerdude wrote:

All in all, a pretty standard offering compared to other North American carriers, but apparently with a pretty good marketing pitch if it's got you concerned.

Concerned! LOL Hardly

This business intrigues me. I am curious what their game plan is. What are they offering that Westjet (for example) didn’t? And why do they think it will be successful? A lot of very capable airlines have tried to compete with Air Canada in the east. I have to wonder what Air Canada is doing that competitors are not and why passengers are staying.

Yes, marketing is great. Another fascinating part of the business. I read through the lines too and agree, I see nothing special. Free wifi is cool, Air Canada started that in premium cabins as well, and I’m guessing Westjet will follow, it’s becoming standard.

I’ve been around a long time, (retiring soon) and one thing I’ve noticed is that Air Canada watches the competition closely and are not afraid to compete. I’ve seen things like free alcohol in domestic Y, blocked off centre seats, Y meals on china, free hot hor’oeuvres in Y, etc. But, I’d be really surprised if they give Porter a lot of attention.

The Canadian market is one that I will never understand. Look at any given route in Canada, Air Canada could charge 500% of what any other carrier would, yet passengers will stay willingly pay for it. You don't see this happening anywhere else in world, where ULCCs have literally dethroned legacy carriers. I really wish Porter the best of luck with their new venture, because right now, their biggest selling point is the convenience of Billy Bishop, so hopefully their E195 experience is truly remarkable to make passengers consider them.

Another thing I see happening in order for them to succeed is to join an alliance/interlining agreement. AC dominates with Star Alliance, WestJet is basically married to Delta/Skyteam, so if I anything down the line I see the potential for Porter to join forces with Jetblue/AA/OneWorld. Other than that, its going to be a hard uphill battle for them

I’ve always enjoyed my experience on Porter and they are my first choice when I have to fly YHZ-YUL or YHZ-YOW. Before the UP Express I would fly them to YTZ and eat the stopover on the way but that’s no longer competitive with the train connection to downtown from YYZ.

All that to say I look forward to more opportunities to fly with Porter and will certainly do so more often with new jet services…I assume YHZ-YYZ must be coming soon.

Especially with WestJet largely abandoning us out east it will be good to have more options other than Air Canada.

My one gripe about Porter is the lack of electronic boarding passes/self serve baggage tags.

Porter’s strength, if it had one, is an 80% stranglehold on all available slots at YTZ, the downtown airport in far and away Canada’s largest aviation market.

Even with this, their statement of defense in the on-going lawsuit between themselves and the folks that bought the YTZ terminal in what was a defacto, over market sale - leaseback arrangement, confirms all previous speculation that the business is not / has never been a profitable. A profitable real estate company? Yes. A profitable airline? No.

Porter has been frustrated time after time in trying to sell the operation to AC or WS. Both have turned it down on numerous occasions for various strategic and tactical reasons: AC because the Comp Bureau would never allow such a concentration of power in Toronto without opening up slots to the competition, thus eliminating the only reason to buy it, WS because the stand alone nature of the operation precludes it from integration into a larger feed / flow network, which, as Flair is learning the hard way, is the only way to be able to sustain an airline in Canada 12 months of the year.

Their next plan is to order 50 new high capital cost aircraft with fully allocated unit costs about 35% higher than a 737-800, and worse still with a Max and hope to the heavens notoriously cheap Canadians will forgo both their points addictions that fund their winter sun holiday and will pay the stiff premium required to cover off the aforementioned highest unit costs in the country.

Concurrently, they’ll operate an almost mutually exclusive operation out of the island, unless of course they are able to convince Porter Q400 passengers buy into a Sudbury - YTZ - bus to YYZ - connect to the E190 operation, or canibalize the operation by operating both E2’s and Q400’s into YYZ and YTZ respectively.

Oh yea.

They plan to accomplish in 2 years what took Canada’s most successful new entrant nearly 10+ years to do safely and profitably.

Those of us not prone to bandwagon jumping see this exactly as it is.

To paraphrase and apologies to STTOS fans:

Spock (Porter) suddenly decides to dump and ignite all the remaining fuel (cash) from the shuttle's engines, (the airline). The giant flare he produces is seen on the Enterprise view screen (AC or WS) just as the ship has left orbit. (The hope is AC or WS) reverses course, and the survivors (Porter shareholders) are beamed out just as the shuttle (Porter) is destroyed on re-entry.

jimbo737 wrote:

Porter’s strength, if it had one, is an 80% stranglehold on all available slots at YTZ, the downtown airport in far and away Canada’s largest aviation market.

Even with this, their statement of defense in the on-going lawsuit between themselves and the folks that bought the YTZ terminal in what was a defacto, over market sale - leaseback arrangement, confirms all previous speculation that the business is not / has never been a profitable. A profitable real estate company? Yes. An airline? No.

Porter has been frustrated time after time in trying to sell the operation to AC or WS. Both have turned it down on numerous occasions.

Their next plan is to order 50 new high capital cost aircraft with fully allocated unit costs about 35% higher than a 737-800, and worse still with a Max and hope to the heavens notoriously cheap Canadians will forgo both their points addictions that fund their winter sun holiday and will pay the stiff premium required to cover off the aforementioned highest unit costs in the country.

Concurrently, they’ll operate an almost mutually exclusive operation out of the island, unless of course they are able to convince Porter Q400 passengers buy into a Sudbury - YTZ - bus to YYZ - connect to the E190 operation, or canibalize the operation by operating both E2’s and Q400’s into the same markets.

Oh yea.

They plan to accomplish in 2 years what took Canada’s most successful new entrant nearly 10 to do safely and profitably.

Those of us not prone to bandwagon jumping see this exactly as it is.

Ah was waiting for the forums negative nancy to chime in. Glad to have ya

Forget about WS.

How long do you think it’ll take AC to react to a new entrant specifically targeting the high clientele they need to have any hope of returning into the black.

Porter might as well wave a red flag in front of a charging bull.

Strategically, the best option is to let these two duke it out through its inevitable conclusion and then saunter in later having kept their powder dry.

No sense getting caught up in this Battle Royale.

jumbojettony wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

Porter’s strength, if it had one, is an 80% stranglehold on all available slots at YTZ, the downtown airport in far and away Canada’s largest aviation market.

Even with this, their statement of defense in the on-going lawsuit between themselves and the folks that bought the YTZ terminal in what was a defacto, over market sale - leaseback arrangement, confirms all previous speculation that the business is not / has never been a profitable. A profitable real estate company? Yes. An airline? No.

Porter has been frustrated time after time in trying to sell the operation to AC or WS. Both have turned it down on numerous occasions.

Their next plan is to order 50 new high capital cost aircraft with fully allocated unit costs about 35% higher than a 737-800, and worse still with a Max and hope to the heavens notoriously cheap Canadians will forgo both their points addictions that fund their winter sun holiday and will pay the stiff premium required to cover off the aforementioned highest unit costs in the country.

Concurrently, they’ll operate an almost mutually exclusive operation out of the island, unless of course they are able to convince Porter Q400 passengers buy into a Sudbury - YTZ - bus to YYZ - connect to the E190 operation, or canibalize the operation by operating both E2’s and Q400’s into the same markets.

Oh yea.

They plan to accomplish in 2 years what took Canada’s most successful new entrant nearly 10 to do safely and profitably.

Those of us not prone to bandwagon jumping see this exactly as it is.

Ah was waiting for the forums negative nancy to chime in. Glad to have ya

Most of it is a copy paste from a previous post of his and ignores how well Porter does out of YHZ to YYT, YOW and YUL. Will this work out for Porter? I don’t know. But either does he.

I read on the Porter discussion thread that PD will be getting roughly 3 planes a month starting January I think? Does that not seem a little bit too ambitious? With WS sort of withdrawing there's opportunity for PD for sure but I don't know if that's three planes per month worth of growth.

yhu wrote:

Most of it is a copy paste from a previous post of his and ignores how well Porter does out of YHZ to YYT, YOW and YUL. Will this work out for Porter? I don’t know. But either does he.

Porter may well “do well” out of YHZ to YYT, YOW and YUL, but even when doing so, during boom times (pre-covid), they were still unable to generate an operating profit. And that’s flying a very efficient aircraft, paying lower wages than the competition.

Now, they are going to try it with an aircraft with higher unit costs.

We may not know, as you say, no one does. But you can have a pretty good idea.

itripreport wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Airlinerdude wrote:

All in all, a pretty standard offering compared to other North American carriers, but apparently with a pretty good marketing pitch if it's got you concerned.

Concerned! LOL Hardly

This business intrigues me. I am curious what their game plan is. What are they offering that Westjet (for example) didn’t? And why do they think it will be successful? A lot of very capable airlines have tried to compete with Air Canada in the east. I have to wonder what Air Canada is doing that competitors are not and why passengers are staying.

Yes, marketing is great. Another fascinating part of the business. I read through the lines too and agree, I see nothing special. Free wifi is cool, Air Canada started that in premium cabins as well, and I’m guessing Westjet will follow, it’s becoming standard.

I’ve been around a long time, (retiring soon) and one thing I’ve noticed is that Air Canada watches the competition closely and are not afraid to compete. I’ve seen things like free alcohol in domestic Y, blocked off centre seats, Y meals on china, free hot hor’oeuvres in Y, etc. But, I’d be really surprised if they give Porter a lot of attention.

The Canadian market is one that I will never understand. Look at any given route in Canada, Air Canada could charge 500% of what any other carrier would, yet passengers will stay willingly pay for it. You don't see this happening anywhere else in world, where ULCCs have literally dethroned legacy carriers. I really wish Porter the best of luck with their new venture, because right now, their biggest selling point is the convenience of Billy Bishop, so hopefully their E195 experience is truly remarkable to make passengers consider them.

Air Canada is not charging 500% what carriers charge on any route in which there is competition. They're generally comparably priced. It's when you get into markets where AC is the only game in town where you see outrageous fares.

yhu wrote:

jumbojettony wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

Porter’s strength, if it had one, is an 80% stranglehold on all available slots at YTZ, the downtown airport in far and away Canada’s largest aviation market.

Even with this, their statement of defense in the on-going lawsuit between themselves and the folks that bought the YTZ terminal in what was a defacto, over market sale - leaseback arrangement, confirms all previous speculation that the business is not / has never been a profitable. A profitable real estate company? Yes. An airline? No.

Porter has been frustrated time after time in trying to sell the operation to AC or WS. Both have turned it down on numerous occasions.

Their next plan is to order 50 new high capital cost aircraft with fully allocated unit costs about 35% higher than a 737-800, and worse still with a Max and hope to the heavens notoriously cheap Canadians will forgo both their points addictions that fund their winter sun holiday and will pay the stiff premium required to cover off the aforementioned highest unit costs in the country.

Concurrently, they’ll operate an almost mutually exclusive operation out of the island, unless of course they are able to convince Porter Q400 passengers buy into a Sudbury - YTZ - bus to YYZ - connect to the E190 operation, or canibalize the operation by operating both E2’s and Q400’s into the same markets.

Oh yea.

They plan to accomplish in 2 years what took Canada’s most successful new entrant nearly 10 to do safely and profitably.

Those of us not prone to bandwagon jumping see this exactly as it is.

Ah was waiting for the forums negative nancy to chime in. Glad to have ya

Most of it is a copy paste from a previous post of his and ignores how well Porter does out of YHZ to YYT, YOW and YUL. Will this work out for Porter? I don’t know. But either does he.

How do you know how well Porter does, financially, out of those markets?

drgmobile wrote:

itripreport wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Concerned! LOL Hardly

This business intrigues me. I am curious what their game plan is. What are they offering that Westjet (for example) didn’t? And why do they think it will be successful? A lot of very capable airlines have tried to compete with Air Canada in the east. I have to wonder what Air Canada is doing that competitors are not and why passengers are staying.

Yes, marketing is great. Another fascinating part of the business. I read through the lines too and agree, I see nothing special. Free wifi is cool, Air Canada started that in premium cabins as well, and I’m guessing Westjet will follow, it’s becoming standard.

I’ve been around a long time, (retiring soon) and one thing I’ve noticed is that Air Canada watches the competition closely and are not afraid to compete. I’ve seen things like free alcohol in domestic Y, blocked off centre seats, Y meals on china, free hot hor’oeuvres in Y, etc. But, I’d be really surprised if they give Porter a lot of attention.

The Canadian market is one that I will never understand. Look at any given route in Canada, Air Canada could charge 500% of what any other carrier would, yet passengers will stay willingly pay for it. You don't see this happening anywhere else in world, where ULCCs have literally dethroned legacy carriers. I really wish Porter the best of luck with their new venture, because right now, their biggest selling point is the convenience of Billy Bishop, so hopefully their E195 experience is truly remarkable to make passengers consider them.

Air Canada is not charging 500% what carriers charge on any route in which there is competition. They're generally comparably priced. It's when you get into markets where AC is the only game in town where you see outrageous fares.

And of course, charging 60 or so dollar fares (which are essentially 10-dollar fares after taxes) is not really that sustainable long term in Canada. And if you live in Moncton or Deer Lake it's not like Flair is an option at all.

As crazy as this E2-195 gamble is I bet Flair flares out before Porter does.
I don't know how much Porter still has in the bank after their profitable YTZ sale leaseback transaction but after the lawsuit loss and covid losses it can't be much. It is also likely that the owners divendended out some of the excess cash from the sale at some point which would further deplete the cash. Whatever the available remaining cash available is they've leveraged it to buy 50 Embraer aircraft. I suspect it is enough to draw their terminal decline out a couple of years unless one of the deep pocket owners pumps more capital in at some point which I doubt..

So-I bet Flair is done by Apr'23 and Porter by 2024.
I'm a numbers guy. None of this makes any sense to me.