Welcome to the Lufthansa Group News and Discussion thread - 2023 edition.

Please continue to post your news and discussions below.

Link to the locked 2022 edition:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468527

Reported LH Group in talks for additional 787 orders as part of compensation for the delay of the B777-9s, and to place them at OS.

https://www.scramble.nl/civil-news/luft ... r-austrian

The next bunch of A350s – the first ones with the new First Class – will be delayed until end of the year 2023. Initially, Lufthansa expected the first new A350 in July, however it seems that Airbus can't meet the scheduled delivery dates, meaning the new A350 and the new First class won't be available until December 2023.

Source: https://www.aerotelegraph.com/lufthansa ... aeten-sich (German)

Can somebody tell me which and how many long haul aircraft LH will have operating in summer 23?

LH506 wrote:

Can somebody tell me which and how many long haul aircraft LH will have operating in summer 23?

I count 94 or 95 aircraft:

Top down:
4 x A380
19 x 747-8
8 x 747-400
7 or 8 x A340-600
21 x A350-900
5 x 787-9
17 x A340-300
11 x A330-300

mercure1 wrote:

Reported LH Group in talks for additional 787 orders as part of compensation for the delay of the B777-9s, and to place them at OS.

https://www.scramble.nl/civil-news/luft ... r-austrian

Finally.
But certainly not in that old livery from the 2017 rendering;-)
AUAs longhaul fleet consists of 8 planes, all old. Three 767s were already retired and scrapped over the past 18 months, makes me wonder how long the last trio will last.

na wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

Reported LH Group in talks for additional 787 orders as part of compensation for the delay of the B777-9s, and to place them at OS.

https://www.scramble.nl/civil-news/luft ... r-austrian

Finally.
But certainly not in that old livery from the 2017 rendering;-)
AUAs longhaul fleet consists of 8 planes, all old. Three 767s were already retired and scrapped over the past 18 months, makes me wonder how long the last trio will last.

Per Planespotters.com, the 767’s and 777’s average 22 to 23 years old. When you consider that some major USA airlines are operating 767’s at least 30 years old, it doesn’t compare too unfavourably. Both BA and Air France have 777’s older than Austrian’s long-haul fleet.

Simple Flying reporting Lufthansa to return remaining 5 A340-600s to service and operate them from FRA due to lack of first class on A359s

C777ER wrote:

Simple Flying reporting Lufthansa to return remaining 5 A340-600s to service and operate them from FRA due to lack of first class on A359s

but FRA is no A350 base, so they have to go to MUC,

77XdelayImcarl wrote:

C777ER wrote:

Simple Flying reporting Lufthansa to return remaining 5 A340-600s to service and operate them from FRA due to lack of first class on A359s

but FRA is no A350 base,

Yes.

77XdelayImcarl wrote:

so they have to go to MUC,

But they will be based in FRA anyway.

Maybe LH wanted to shift the MUC-based A346s to FRA once enough A359s with F are delivered.


With A380s returning MUC will have 5 A346s and 4 A380s (this summer, possibly more next year) with first class.
First class in FRA will be 5 A346s and 19 748s.

What are the possibilities that LH returns the remaining stored A380s back to FRA? Understand that MUC requires First Class more than FRA, considering the B748s and A346s are fitted with them, but I don’t see how MUC needs that many A380s if reactivated.

I may have missed it, but has LH announced the A380 routes for this coming NS23?

Amwest2United wrote:

I may have missed it, but has LH announced the A380 routes for this coming NS23?

No, not that I'm aware.

Frode789 wrote:

Amwest2United wrote:

I may have missed it, but has LH announced the A380 routes for this coming NS23?

No, not that I'm aware.

I guess something like LAX and MIA and possibly SFO. And maybe later PEK again. But that's just a guess.

Amwest2United wrote:

I may have missed it, but has LH announced the A380 routes for this coming NS23?

BOS and JFK will be first.

Terrier79 wrote:

Amwest2United wrote:

I may have missed it, but has LH announced the A380 routes for this coming NS23?

BOS and JFK will be first.

BOS? Really? Because it can be done with a single frame? Other than that I wouldn’t have thought Boston high on the list.

[photoid][code][/code][/photoid]

Nicoeddf wrote:

Terrier79 wrote:

Amwest2United wrote:

I may have missed it, but has LH announced the A380 routes for this coming NS23?

BOS and JFK will be first.

BOS? Really? Because it can be done with a single frame? Other than that I wouldn’t have thought Boston high on the list.

BOS is a very high-yielding, high traffic route- probably one of the most in the US after JFK for LH/Star. For 2020, LH had scheduled the A380 for BOS-MUC, and announced the launch of 6x weekly BOS-VIE on OS… obviously Covid upended that. In summer months BOS-FRA typically gets 2x daily 747, as well as 1x MUC (in addition to 2x daily BOS-ZRH on LX). Not to mention, BOS has a significantly shorter stage length than other US destinations.

EADSYABSOB73857 wrote:

BOS is a very high-yielding, high traffic route- probably one of the most in the US after JFK for LH/Star. For 2020, LH had scheduled the A380 for BOS-MUC, and announced the launch of 6x weekly BOS-VIE on OS… obviously Covid upended that. In summer months BOS-FRA typically gets 2x daily 747, as well as 1x MUC (in addition to 2x daily BOS-ZRH on LX). Not to mention, BOS has a significantly shorter stage length than other US destinations.

I have no doubt that BOS is higher up on the list, but I am doubtful that it's in their top tier in terms of yield and traffic. IAD and ORD are certainly well ahead of Boston, both of which have four or more daily flights to FRA on LH/UA in the summer (along with multiple daily flights to MUC, VIE, ZRH, and BRU). I would guess that BOS is more comparable to MIA for the JV. I think the winter cuts are pretty indicative of their priorities. The 748 has been kept on IAD, ORD, and MIA, which tells me that's where LH is targeting the more premium traffic. I think the A380 from BOS is likely to accommodate demand without requiring additional frequencies. With little connecting feed on the US side, there's no benefit to frequency. They're more likely to add frequency for EWR/IAD/ORD because of the added benefit of connections on both ends, so the A380 isn't really necessary.

It seems the delivery of LH's third 787 D-ABPC (line 887) is imminent. Anyone knows the expected date?

HB-IWC wrote:

It seems the delivery of LH's third 787 D-ABPC (line 887) is imminent. Anyone knows the expected date?

15/16 Jan according to this (usually reliable) website.

https://sites.google.com/view/europeana ... authuser=0

airsmiles wrote:

Per Planespotters.com, the 767’s and 777’s average 22 to 23 years old. When you consider that some major USA airlines are operating 767’s at least 30 years old, it doesn’t compare too unfavourably. Both BA and Air France have 777’s older than Austrian’s long-haul fleet.

For the kind of flying they do, AUA has one of the most unoptimised Long Haul fleets for any European carrier. Those 787's will be a welcome change in terms of fleet rationalization and optimisation.

All A346s to be reactivated at Frankfurt

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... urt-routes

DTW will be the next 789 destination for Lufthansa. Published today. Service starts on Feb 13.

atcsundevil wrote:

EADSYABSOB73857 wrote:

BOS is a very high-yielding, high traffic route- probably one of the most in the US after JFK for LH/Star. For 2020, LH had scheduled the A380 for BOS-MUC, and announced the launch of 6x weekly BOS-VIE on OS… obviously Covid upended that. In summer months BOS-FRA typically gets 2x daily 747, as well as 1x MUC (in addition to 2x daily BOS-ZRH on LX). Not to mention, BOS has a significantly shorter stage length than other US destinations.

I have no doubt that BOS is higher up on the list, but I am doubtful that it's in their top tier in terms of yield and traffic. IAD and ORD are certainly well ahead of Boston, both of which have four or more daily flights to FRA on LH/UA in the summer (along with multiple daily flights to MUC, VIE, ZRH, and BRU). I would guess that BOS is more comparable to MIA for the JV. I think the winter cuts are pretty indicative of their priorities. The 748 has been kept on IAD, ORD, and MIA, which tells me that's where LH is targeting the more premium traffic. I think the A380 from BOS is likely to accommodate demand without requiring additional frequencies. With little connecting feed on the US side, there's no benefit to frequency. They're more likely to add frequency for EWR/IAD/ORD because of the added benefit of connections on both ends, so the A380 isn't really necessary.

I didn’t say it was THE top US market, but I said it’s one of the top. Forgive me for not stating, but I was speaking outside of the UA/Star hubs. BOS is the largest city for UA outside of UA hubs- this has been stated extensively on UA earnings calls; and it has been the most heavily sought after city for an international flight to LON on Star Alliance to the extent that UA started their only non-hub transatlantic flight. Sure; ORD and IAD have 4x daily between LH and UA, but BOS is not a UA hub, and they are still up there. The truth is that BOS-FRA/MUC/ZRH/CPH command massive yield premiums; it’s a massive market for them. Yes, EWR, IAD, and ORD are most definitely flowing more traffic over and I’m sure making more money, but BOS is towards the top of LH’s North American list.

When is the next DLH A380 due to leave storage, if so, what’s the reg?

KPTKRampy wrote:

When is the next DLH A380 due to leave storage, if so, what’s the reg?

-MM is currently being reactivated at Teruel.

I wanna clear one more thing up, once IATA summer 2023 is over, they’re gonna send the 380’s back to storage?

KPTKRampy wrote:

I wanna clear one more thing up, once IATA summer 2023 is over, they’re gonna send the 380’s back to storage?

Is that a question or a known point? I can't see why they would put them back in the desert after six months or so. If anything thought they were questioning internally whether to activate the other four sitting in the desert for Summer 2024. Thinking logically, LH is going to suffer like others of WB capacity. Now China is opening, that is already a couple of destinations that were old 380 routes re-opening.

There wer even reports of not only reactivating all 8 A380s but also updating the Cabin with the new Allegris. However those decisions are still to be made.

eurotrader85 wrote:

KPTKRampy wrote:

I wanna clear one more thing up, once IATA summer 2023 is over, they’re gonna send the 380’s back to storage?

Is that a question or a known point? I can't see why they would put them back in the desert after six months or so. If anything thought they were questioning internally whether to activate the other four sitting in the desert for Summer 2024. Thinking logically, LH is going to suffer like others of WB capacity. Now China is opening, that is already a couple of destinations that were old 380 routes re-opening.

There’s a lufthansa fleet tracker that’s said re-activation for Summer 2023, the other aircraft that are being re-activated just say reactivation. I know I’m nitpicking, but I’m just curious

KPTKRampy wrote:

There’s a lufthansa fleet tracker that’s said re-activation for Summer 2023, the other aircraft that are being re-activated just say reactivation. I know I’m nitpicking, but I’m just curious

They're not reactivated just for one summer season. I think here hasn't been any official statement on the use of the aircraft during the winter schedule, but I could imagine that routes like SIN, BKK or MIA could see the whale during the northern winter if the yields stay where they currently are.

Terrier79 wrote:

KPTKRampy wrote:

There’s a lufthansa fleet tracker that’s said re-activation for Summer 2023, the other aircraft that are being re-activated just say reactivation. I know I’m nitpicking, but I’m just curious

They're not reactivated just for one summer season. I think here hasn't been any official statement on the use of the aircraft during the winter schedule, but I could imagine that routes like SIN, BKK or MIA could see the whale during the northern winter if the yields stay where they currently are.

Agree with this, I can't imagine they are going to pay to reactive them for just a few months.

It's going to cost millions to get these aircraft back in service. They'll need to be in service for long enough to recoup the investment, or they wouldn't be doing it. I think the real question is whether they hang around for three or four years, or will they receive cabin investments and hang around for another decade.

atcsundevil wrote:

It's going to cost millions to get these aircraft back in service. They'll need to be in service for long enough to recoup the investment, or they wouldn't be doing it. I think the real question is whether they hang around for three or four years, or will they receive cabin investments and hang around for another decade.

Exactly. Question is whether these birds will just bridge the capacity gap until the 777-9s eventually arrive (if they ever do) and when LH expects this to happen.
And then the second question is whether LH needs the extra capacity in the long term independently from the 777-9 delays.
My personal guess is that they are getting the new cabin, too, and will stay around for another decade or so.

https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-boei ... stination/

Looks like Detroit from Frankfurt is the next destination for the 787s.. Seems like a good fit.. I believe they were previously using the A343

Does anyone know if and when LH will resume mainline service to MCO Orlando and if so, what equipment? So sad to see the 744 flights gone and replaced with Eurowing/Finnair acft.

DUSZRH wrote:

There wer even reports of not only reactivating all 8 A380s but also updating the Cabin with the new Allegris. However those decisions are still to be made.

Executive Traveller reports Allegris to debut on the new MUC A350s. No decision yet on cabin updates for the 747-8 and A380.
https://www.executivetraveller.com/luft ... uite-cabin

HECA wrote:

DUSZRH wrote:

There wer even reports of not only reactivating all 8 A380s but also updating the Cabin with the new Allegris. However those decisions are still to be made.

Executive Traveller reports Allegris to debut on the new MUC A350s. No decision yet on cabin updates for the 747-8 and A380.
https://www.executivetraveller.com/luft ... uite-cabin

I was a little surprised to read that the 779 will not be getting First Class. In the linked Executive Traveller article, their Head of Product Management Cabin, Paul Estoppey is quoted saying, “There is no first on the 777-9...”

MoKa777 wrote:

HECA wrote:

DUSZRH wrote:

There wer even reports of not only reactivating all 8 A380s but also updating the Cabin with the new Allegris. However those decisions are still to be made.

Executive Traveller reports Allegris to debut on the new MUC A350s. No decision yet on cabin updates for the 747-8 and A380.
https://www.executivetraveller.com/luft ... uite-cabin

I was a little surprised to read that the 779 will not be getting First Class. In the linked Executive Traveller article, their Head of Product Management Cabin, Paul Estoppey is quoted saying, “There is no first on the 777-9...”

At least the first batch was always destined without First Class as they're replacing the 744's which do not feature a First Class product either

https://youtu.be/zlXXtEjWKSM

Looks like Lufthansa has a new branding for the onboard experience. Allegris. A couple of interesting tidbits, different seating options where you might sacrifice space, but can turn into a double bed in J? A econ configuration that allows sleeping across three seats, a la NZ?

Look forward to more details.

I've heard LX is getting the new

Wpr8e wrote:

https://youtu.be/zlXXtEjWKSM

Looks like Lufthansa has a new branding for the onboard experience. Allegris. A couple of interesting tidbits, different seating options where you might sacrifice space, but can turn into a double bed in J? A econ configuration that allows sleeping across three seats, a la NZ?

Look forward to more details.

I've heard LX is getting the new

Interesting point about business branding. I think US airlines have a strong focus on their brands, Polaris, Delta One, Flagship, Mint, these are names that customers seem to recognise. In Europe (and the rest of the world for that matter) few airlines do this, of the EU3 only BA has its Club World branding predominantly on display. Air France heavily brands its « La Première » but moved away from branding business a decade or so ago (I believe). In a day and age where branding seems to be a differentiator I wonder if AF will follow suite.

I believe the skycouch has been available on the 747-8 for a while now? Looks like its been working out well for them to expand it throughout the fleet.

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

Wpr8e wrote:

https://youtu.be/zlXXtEjWKSM

Looks like Lufthansa has a new branding for the onboard experience. Allegris. A couple of interesting tidbits, different seating options where you might sacrifice space, but can turn into a double bed in J? A econ configuration that allows sleeping across three seats, a la NZ?

Look forward to more details.

I've heard LX is getting the new

Interesting point about business branding. I think US airlines have a strong focus on their brands, Polaris, Delta One, Flagship, Mint, these are names that customers seem to recognise. In Europe (and the rest of the world for that matter) few airlines do this, of the EU3 only BA has its Club World branding predominantly on display. Air France heavily brands its « La Première » but moved away from branding business a decade or so ago (I believe). In a day and age where branding seems to be a differentiator I wonder if AF will follow suite.

I believe the skycouch has been available on the 747-8 for a while now? Looks like its been working out well for them to expand it throughout the fleet.

Thanks for the update. And I agree the branding is going to be interesting and across all 4 cabins, which is unique.

I also didn't finish my earlier comments, but I believe LX is getting the First and Business seats. Not sure about OS and SN.

Lufthansa in talks for the partial sale of Lufthansa Technik seeking EUR 1-1.5 billion in proceeds.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/l ... 023-01-19/

So 4 787s for Lufthansa this year?

Austrian returns to Tokyo on May 2nd with 5 round-trips.
Due Russian overflight restrictions, with new routing the enroute time from NRT to VIE becomes 14:15, the longest in OS network.

https://www.traicy.com/posts/20230122259335/

Sorry to repeat this question but I was hoping there is an LH expert here, I am planning a trip to Frankfurt in the Fall of 23 and want to know if LH will reinstate the 744 back to MCO Orlando. Eurowings A330 is showing on the LH website, if that is the case I have no interest.

crownvic wrote:

Sorry to repeat this question but I was hoping there is an LH expert here, I am planning a trip to Frankfurt in the Fall of 23 and want to know if LH will reinstate the 744 back to MCO Orlando. Eurowings A330 is showing on the LH website, if that is the case I have no interest.

At this point, not really possible for anyone here to know the answer, unfortunately. There are still likely changes to come for the summer aircraft assignments, so it's really too early to know for Fall.

crownvic wrote:

Sorry to repeat this question but I was hoping there is an LH expert here, I am planning a trip to Frankfurt in the Fall of 23 and want to know if LH will reinstate the 744 back to MCO Orlando. Eurowings A330 is showing on the LH website, if that is the case I have no interest.

Dear crownvic,
First of all I need to agree with ty97 that the schedule may change as always. This is the data I can get for North America for the fall of 2023. You need to consider that there are only eight B744 left to bridge the gap to the B779 and as it is also used on the runs to ICN, BLR, PVG and PEK this fall, it only appears at JFK and ORD currently.

USA/CAN LH mainline ops for fall 2023:
Atlanta (ATL): LH444/LH445 A343
Austin (AUS): LH468/LH469 A333
Boston (BOS): LH422/LH423 A343
Chicago-O’Hare (ORD): LH430/ LH431 B748 & LH432/LH433 B748
Dallas/ Fort Worth (DFW) LH438/LH439 A343
Denver (DEN): LH446/LH447 A343
Detroit (DTW) LH442/LH443 A343
Houston Int. (IAH): LH440/LH441 A333
Los Angeles (LAX): LH456/LH457 B748
Miami (MIA): LH462/LH463 B748
Newark (EWR): LH402/LH403 A343
New York-JFK (JFK): LH400/LH401 B744 & LH404/LH405 A333
Orlando (MCO): LH464/LH465 A343 (resumes 29 October 2023)
Philadelphia (PHL): LH426/LH427 A343
San Francisco (SFO): LH454/LH455 B748
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA): LH490/LH491 A343
St. Louis (STL): LH448/LH449 A333
Toronto-Pearson (YYZ): LH470/LH471 A343
Vancouver (YVR): LH492/LH493 A343
Washington-Dulles (IAD): LH418/LH419 B748

So if you want to get the B744, you need to detour via JFK for LH400/LH401 as it will be the only option left.

Greetings from Frankfurt!

Thomas3125 thank you that was very informative. Looks like I waited to long. the 748 would have been my alternate choice.

Thomas32125 wrote:

crownvic wrote:

Sorry to repeat this question but I was hoping there is an LH expert here, I am planning a trip to Frankfurt in the Fall of 23 and want to know if LH will reinstate the 744 back to MCO Orlando. Eurowings A330 is showing on the LH website, if that is the case I have no interest.

Dear crownvic,
First of all I need to agree with ty97 that the schedule may change as always. This is the data I can get for North America for the fall of 2023. You need to consider that there are only eight B744 left to bridge the gap to the B779 and as it is also used on the runs to ICN, BLR, PVG and PEK this fall, it only appears at JFK and ORD currently.

USA/CAN LH mainline ops for fall 2023:
Atlanta (ATL): LH444/LH445 A343
Austin (AUS): LH468/LH469 A333
Boston (BOS): LH422/LH423 A343
Chicago-O’Hare (ORD): LH430/ LH431 B748 & LH432/LH433 B748
Dallas/ Fort Worth (DFW) LH438/LH439 A343
Denver (DEN): LH446/LH447 A343
Detroit (DTW) LH442/LH443 A343
Houston Int. (IAH): LH440/LH441 A333
Los Angeles (LAX): LH456/LH457 B748
Miami (MIA): LH462/LH463 B748
Newark (EWR): LH402/LH403 A343
New York-JFK (JFK): LH400/LH401 B744 & LH404/LH405 A333
Orlando (MCO): LH464/LH465 A343 (resumes 29 October 2023)
Philadelphia (PHL): LH426/LH427 A343
San Francisco (SFO): LH454/LH455 B748
Seattle/Tacoma (SEA): LH490/LH491 A343
St. Louis (STL): LH448/LH449 A333
Toronto-Pearson (YYZ): LH470/LH471 A343
Vancouver (YVR): LH492/LH493 A343
Washington-Dulles (IAD): LH418/LH419 B748

So if you want to get the B744, you need to detour via JFK for LH400/LH401 as it will be the only option left.

Greetings from Frankfurt!

Thank you for that info. Any info on where the A346s will be flying to in the fall?