davidjohnson6 wrote:

Before you say "but Europe is different to the USA, we have different cultures"... I have lived my entire life in Europe

They are different in the respect that Europe is a continent with many different languages, cultures etc. and the USA is a country.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

The rivaly between AF and KL has to stop, and the 2 airlines need to work together. DL and NW managed to merge properly. So did UA and CO. As did AA and US.

But after the mergers you mentioned, one of the two airlines ceased to exist. There's no more NW, CO or US. But there is still a KL and it will never be truly 'one' airline because you will always deal with 2 names (if you don't include Transavia, Hop and Martinair).

I do think that they should streamline their names: All mainline flights should be done by Air France and KLM, all leisure/low-cost flights should be carrying the Transavia name, all cargo operations be done by Martinair and all maintenance by AFKL Maintenance.

Ditch the AF Cargo, KL Cargo and cityhopper/hop name and in case of impending strikes: let it only exist on paper to prevent uproar about payment differences. With this you create 4 strong airline names.

(Furthermore should they really fix their websites and apps because booking flights on their site or app is an absolute nightmare and downright embarrassing)

It's in my opinion a major mistake not to buy ITA Airways, which would make much more sense as a new partner than TAP Portugal.

anstar wrote:

tvh wrote:

What I do not understand is that KLM says that they will replace there 11 A330's by 2025, but they have only 6 B787-10 on order. They can order more aircraft, but how within 2025.

Could some thinner routes in Africa/ME go to 321s as they arrive?

Probably not, as KLM has declared not to fly longer distances with the a32x (as in no longer than what they are flying now with the 737).

But you never know.

PANAMsterdam wrote:

davidjohnson6 wrote:

The rivaly between AF and KL has to stop, and the 2 airlines need to work together. DL and NW managed to merge properly. So did UA and CO. As did AA and US.

But after the mergers you mentioned, one of the two airlines ceased to exist. There's no more NW, CO or US. But there is still a KL and it will never be truly 'one' airline because you will always deal with 2 names (if you don't include Transavia, Hop and Martinair).

What needed to happen was KLM should’ve been folded into the AF group in every way but the name, the way LH does it. Having 2 separate but equal airlines running under one group makes no sense and it only gets worse the more familiar you are with their operation. There’s literally 2 of everything, one AF and one KL.

Agreed on the rest with the exception of cargo. MartinAir has no name recognition anymore. Plus cargo is actually reasonably well integrated. They just maintain 2 separate fleets

FGITD wrote:

PANAMsterdam wrote:

davidjohnson6 wrote:

The rivaly between AF and KL has to stop, and the 2 airlines need to work together. DL and NW managed to merge properly. So did UA and CO. As did AA and US.

But after the mergers you mentioned, one of the two airlines ceased to exist. There's no more NW, CO or US. But there is still a KL and it will never be truly 'one' airline because you will always deal with 2 names (if you don't include Transavia, Hop and Martinair).

What needed to happen was KLM should’ve been folded into the AF group in every way but the name, the way LH does it. Having 2 separate but equal airlines running under one group makes no sense and it only gets worse the more familiar you are with their operation. There’s literally 2 of everything, one AF and one KL.

Agreed on the rest with the exception of cargo. MartinAir has no name recognition anymore. Plus cargo is actually reasonably well integrated. They just maintain 2 separate fleets

Deutsch Lufthansa AG is not legally one airline. It owns several airlines directly rather than being under one holding company like International Consolidated Airlines Group S.A. or Air France-KLM S.A.

Breathe wrote:

FGITD wrote:

PANAMsterdam wrote:

But after the mergers you mentioned, one of the two airlines ceased to exist. There's no more NW, CO or US. But there is still a KL and it will never be truly 'one' airline because you will always deal with 2 names (if you don't include Transavia, Hop and Martinair).

What needed to happen was KLM should’ve been folded into the AF group in every way but the name, the way LH does it. Having 2 separate but equal airlines running under one group makes no sense and it only gets worse the more familiar you are with their operation. There’s literally 2 of everything, one AF and one KL.

Agreed on the rest with the exception of cargo. MartinAir has no name recognition anymore. Plus cargo is actually reasonably well integrated. They just maintain 2 separate fleets

Deutsch Lufthansa AG is not legally one airline. It owns several airlines directly rather than being under one holding company like International Consolidated Airlines Group S.A. or Air France-KLM S.A.

^This. And apparently SWISS is the only consistently profitable group member. LH Group is a bad example, as they’ve literally set up multiple subsidiaries just to union-bust or lower operating costs. Of course it’s no surprise that the integration of those “subsidiaries” (LH Cityline, Eurowings Discover) is better.

mig17 wrote:

Berven1 wrote:

I happened to read on Scramble that KLM is considering ordering 16 Airbus A350-900/1000 as a replacement for Boeing 777-200ER, very surprising. In the past, KLM had already ordered 7 Airbuses A350-900 from Airbus, which went to Air France, in exchange for Air France Boeing 787-9s going to KLM.

I find it strange that KLM will later opt for Airbus A350 and Airbus A350 will now fit very well in the KLM fleet. However, I also think that KLM will purchase Airbus A350-1000 as replacement of Boeing 777-300ER in distant future.

Talking about Boeing 777X is still uncertain, but it could also strengthen KLM's fleet. A Boeing 777-9X could then be KLM's largest aircraft with approximately 425/445 passengers across 4 classes, World Business Class, Economy Premium, Economy Comfort and Economy Class.

Initially, both type of the split 787/A350 order from Air France - KLM group were supposed to be devided between both airlines.
It is along the way that KLM choose to delayed A350 entry into service and since Air France wanted more, they switched their remaining oreders. Lefting KLM with only 787-9 and -10 and Air France with only 10 787-9.
PAS at Le Bourget is in June and it is probable that the Air France - KLM group anounce an new (split?) order there.

Either they order both A350 and 787:
- 15 787-9 for Air France as A330-200 replacement, thus growing the 787 subfleet to a more economical size,
- 10 787-9 or -10 for KLM as A330-200 and A330-300 replacement,
- 15 A350-900 for KLM as 777-200ER replacement,
- 20 A350-1000 as first batch for the oldest 777-300ER replacement at both Air France and KLM.

Or it is an all Airbus order with 2 possibilty (with ou without A330neo for Air France):
- 25 A330-900 or A350-900 for Air France as A330-200 and 787-9 replacement while the 10 AF's 787-9 are transfered to KLM as A330 replacement,
- 15 A350-900 for KLM as 777-200ER replacement,
- 20 A350-1000 as first batch for the oldest 777-300ER replacement at both Air France and KLM.

Either way, it is a 40 to 60 widebody order coming soon depending if some of the A330-200 are instead replaced by A321neo or xlr.

I agree on the 15 787-9 for the A330-200 replacement, it will also give Air France the opportunity to open up some long, thin routes. However I think KLM will go all-787, and order a mix of 787-9/10 to replace the A330s and 777-200ER, probably 20-30. It doesn't make a lot of sense for KLM to add another type, when the 787-10 is capable enough for 90% of KLM routes. Anything longer can go to 787-9 or the 777-300ER. KLM is much smaller than Air France, 110 aircraft vs. 210. I don't think they would want two planes with basically the same capacity; that's unnecessary fleet complexity.

On the other hand, Air France already has plans for a large A350 fleet, with 20 delivered and 21 on order. Their 777-300ERs are also much older than KLMs, and will probably need replacing in around 5 years. While the 777X is planned to launch 2025, that date has been pushed so many times, I'm not sure if this one will stick. And realistically, with a 300+ plane orderbook already, any new order now will probably be delivered 5+ years after launch. I think Air France will go with the safer option of a ~20ish A350-1000 order to replace the oldest 777-300ERs.

Long term, I think Air France-KLM will order 30-50 777-9s to replace the younger 777-300ERs. This order however is probably still a few years away. This would work out nicely for Air France, to have the 777-300ER replaced by slightly smaller(A350-1000) and slightly larger(777-9) aircraft, allowing them to better right-size aircraft for respective markets.

So in summary
KL 20-30 787-9/10 to replace 11 A330 and 15 777-200ER
AF 15 787-9 to replace 15 A330-200
AF 20 A350-1000 to replace older 777-300ER

PANAMsterdam wrote:

Ditch the AF Cargo, KL Cargo and cityhopper/hop name and in case of impending strikes: let it only exist on paper to prevent uproar about payment differences. With this you create 4 strong airline names.

KLM and KLM Citihopper are on the same pilot contract. Pilots also switch around between Citihopper and the mainline. Hence why KLM is replacing their 737-700 with E195E2, without the unions being against it as their pilots are on the same contract

airportgeek wrote:

.

On the other hand, Air France already has plans for a large A350 fleet, with 20 delivered and 21 on order. Their 777-300ERs are also much older than KLMs, and will probably need replacing in around 5 years. While the 777X is planned to launch 2025, that date has been pushed so many times, I'm not sure if this one will stick. And realistically, with a 300+ plane orderbook already, any new order now will probably be delivered 5+ years after launch. I think Air France will go with the safer option of a ~20ish A350-1000 order to replace the oldest 777-300ERs.

BA is expecting its first jet in 2026 together with AI as things stand , they are the last 2 777-9 customers . Usually the aircraft orderbook is spread out over many years , with production slots left in between on purpose to accomodate new customers, so Boeing doesn't necessarily have to clear the whole 300+ first.

So any new 777-9 order now should have its first aircraft arrive by maybe around 2026/2027, not 5 years after launch.

Braboz wrote:

PANAMsterdam wrote:

Ditch the AF Cargo, KL Cargo and cityhopper/hop name and in case of impending strikes: let it only exist on paper to prevent uproar about payment differences. With this you create 4 strong airline names.

KLM and KLM Citihopper are on the same pilot contract. Pilots also switch around between Citihopper and the mainline. Hence why KLM is replacing their 737-700 with E195E2, without the unions being against it as their pilots are on the same contract

Not exactly.
While the KLC pilots are on a KLM contract there are (rather large) differences between both companies.
Pay, leave, vacation and Max hours are different for instance. KLC pilots are cheaper than the 737 pilots and that makes the KLC operation a lot cheaper.

Also there was a lot of strive when the e2 came.into service and for quite a while the e2 flew with X number of seats blocked as the KLC agreement states there is a limit on the number of (saleable) seats at KLC. In the end the union and the company worked it out, but I wouldn't call KLC and KLM one entity

Sermons wrote:

LifelinerOne wrote:

I would not be surprised to see an A350 order for KLM to replace their B777s, so both A350-900s and -1000s. Originally, they had the A350 on order, so they did see the benefit of that aircraft.

What, in my opinion, makes a potential B777-9 order uncertain is the certification timeframe and entry into commercial service. The lack of clarity on the B737-10 certification made AF-KLM move to the A320neo/A321neo. AF-KLM also doesn't like to be launch customer for a type and rather wants to have teething problems being taken care of.

As Ben Smith stated to Luchtvaartnieuws.nl, he's keen to order new aircraft this year, which in my opinion would give the A350 the advantage. For me its also not clear if this is an order for only KLM or also for Air France.

More Dreamliners should be logical, so that I can agree on. But it wouldn't surprise me if they would go with the A350.

Cheers!

It's sort of guaranteed (almost 100%) that the 772s will be replaced by the 78X. I am guessing a group order of 20-30 787-9/10s , with the remaining going to AF. KLM didn't want the a359 before so I doubt they will go back for them again.

Is the 78X still the guaranteed 77E replacement? With the restrictions Eastwards considering the closure of Russian airspace, is the 78X capable enough to replace the 77E? Or is the A359 better for that job?

KL still has 6 B78X's on production order at the moment, which will total their planes at 15 if they are all timely delivered by 2025. . Remember that most of those were also deployed on the 744 routes. They need at least 10 more on top of that in order to fully replace the 772 subfleet

marcelh wrote:

Sermons wrote:

LifelinerOne wrote:

I would not be surprised to see an A350 order for KLM to replace their B777s, so both A350-900s and -1000s. Originally, they had the A350 on order, so they did see the benefit of that aircraft.

What, in my opinion, makes a potential B777-9 order uncertain is the certification timeframe and entry into commercial service. The lack of clarity on the B737-10 certification made AF-KLM move to the A320neo/A321neo. AF-KLM also doesn't like to be launch customer for a type and rather wants to have teething problems being taken care of.

As Ben Smith stated to Luchtvaartnieuws.nl, he's keen to order new aircraft this year, which in my opinion would give the A350 the advantage. For me its also not clear if this is an order for only KLM or also for Air France.

More Dreamliners should be logical, so that I can agree on. But it wouldn't surprise me if they would go with the A350.

Cheers!

It's sort of guaranteed (almost 100%) that the 772s will be replaced by the 78X. I am guessing a group order of 20-30 787-9/10s , with the remaining going to AF. KLM didn't want the a359 before so I doubt they will go back for them again.

Is the 78X still the guaranteed 77E replacement? With the restrictions Eastwards considering the closure of Russian airspace, is the 78X capable enough to replace the 77E? Or is the A359 better for that job?

You make a good point. Looking at the future, I don't think KLM can bet that Russian airspace will be reopened soon, so the B787-10 won't do the trick. They can go the route of ordering B777-9s and then move the B777-300ERs to the B777-200ERs routes. But with the oldest B777-300ER being 15 years old, this will be a temporary thing.

For me a combination of A350-900s/1000s would make sense to replace the B777-200ERs but also the oldest B777-300ERs in due course. Then, if needed capacity wise, they can always add on the B777-9.

Cheers!

Eikie wrote:

Braboz wrote:

PANAMsterdam wrote:

Ditch the AF Cargo, KL Cargo and cityhopper/hop name and in case of impending strikes: let it only exist on paper to prevent uproar about payment differences. With this you create 4 strong airline names.

KLM and KLM Citihopper are on the same pilot contract. Pilots also switch around between Citihopper and the mainline. Hence why KLM is replacing their 737-700 with E195E2, without the unions being against it as their pilots are on the same contract

Not exactly.
While the KLC pilots are on a KLM contract there are (rather large) differences between both companies.
Pay, leave, vacation and Max hours are different for instance. KLC pilots are cheaper than the 737 pilots and that makes the KLC operation a lot cheaper.

Also there was a lot of strive when the e2 came.into service and for quite a while the e2 flew with X number of seats blocked as the KLC agreement states there is a limit on the number of (saleable) seats at KLC. In the end the union and the company worked it out, but I wouldn't call KLC and KLM one entity

Then i have to ask the friend of mine more details. He switcht from being a first officicer on the 777 to first officer on KLC a few years ago and this is what he told me.

Braboz wrote:

Eikie wrote:

Braboz wrote:

KLM and KLM Citihopper are on the same pilot contract. Pilots also switch around between Citihopper and the mainline. Hence why KLM is replacing their 737-700 with E195E2, without the unions being against it as their pilots are on the same contract

Not exactly.
While the KLC pilots are on a KLM contract there are (rather large) differences between both companies.
Pay, leave, vacation and Max hours are different for instance. KLC pilots are cheaper than the 737 pilots and that makes the KLC operation a lot cheaper.

Also there was a lot of strive when the e2 came.into service and for quite a while the e2 flew with X number of seats blocked as the KLC agreement states there is a limit on the number of (saleable) seats at KLC. In the end the union and the company worked it out, but I wouldn't call KLC and KLM one entity

Then i have to ask the friend of mine more details. He switcht from being a first officicer on the 777 to first officer on KLC a few years ago and this is what he told me.

Don't want to be rude, but going from FO KLM to FO KLC is a very, very unusual step, as it will decrease his salary a lot. (as in almost half).
Even becoming a capt KLC would not be a logical step, but isn't completely unheard of (but would still cause a small reduction in salary).
And that is evidence KLC is cheaper on all fronts, including pilots.

He might have been a SO (second officer) or really, really couldn't handle long haul and took any other job available.

PANAMsterdam wrote:

davidjohnson6 wrote:

It's in my opinion a major mistake not to buy ITA Airways, which would make much more sense as a new partner than TAP Portugal.

AFKL couldn't invest in ITA as long as money was owed to the French Government, which has reportedly now been repaid (or will be very shortly) but was still a barrier at the time the ITA negotiations were ongoing. AFKL was part of a group the DL and TPG that expressed interest in ITA but AFKL was not putting equity in to that deal.

Whether ITA would make sense to AFKL is also an open question. They invested in Alitalia and that didn't work out very well. And what strength does ITA bring to the group? There's not a destination in Europe that can't be served from AMS or CDG that can be served from FCO/MXP. And the low cost competition in the Italian market makes short haul flying by ITA a dicey proposition.

TAP is an interesting idea in that it does open up South American routes which are apparently a growth market. Air Europa might have done the same thing, but then they would be competing directly with IAG's multiple carriers (legacy and low cost) at MAD. TAP captures the Portuguese market and is a little closer in terms of flying to South America than either AMS or CDG (or MAD, actually) and also provides another hub in Western Europe for flow through routing to Eastern Europe in the event that AMS's slot controls really limit activities there. Operating cost/emplanement may also be less expensive and allow Transavia to grow cost effectively. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Sermons wrote:

airportgeek wrote:

.

On the other hand, Air France already has plans for a large A350 fleet, with 20 delivered and 21 on order. Their 777-300ERs are also much older than KLMs, and will probably need replacing in around 5 years. While the 777X is planned to launch 2025, that date has been pushed so many times, I'm not sure if this one will stick. And realistically, with a 300+ plane orderbook already, any new order now will probably be delivered 5+ years after launch. I think Air France will go with the safer option of a ~20ish A350-1000 order to replace the oldest 777-300ERs.

BA is expecting its first jet in 2026 together with AI as things stand , they are the last 2 777-9 customers . Usually the aircraft orderbook is spread out over many years , with production slots left in between on purpose to accomodate new customers, so Boeing doesn't necessarily have to clear the whole 300+ first.

So any new 777-9 order now should have its first aircraft arrive by maybe around 2026/2027, not 5 years after launch.

Fair enough, but at the same time there is no guarantee that first delivery will happen in 2025. The date of early 2025 was given April 2022. I guess we'll know soon, considering the 777X will be entering the FAA certification process soon. I just suspect Air France-KLM will want to balance out the near-certain Boeing 787 order with a similar-sized Airbus order. This would also help keep types balanced in Air France with A330 pilots moving to A350, and 777 pilots moving to 787.

marcelh wrote:

Sermons wrote:

LifelinerOne wrote:

I would not be surprised to see an A350 order for KLM to replace their B777s, so both A350-900s and -1000s. Originally, they had the A350 on order, so they did see the benefit of that aircraft.

What, in my opinion, makes a potential B777-9 order uncertain is the certification timeframe and entry into commercial service. The lack of clarity on the B737-10 certification made AF-KLM move to the A320neo/A321neo. AF-KLM also doesn't like to be launch customer for a type and rather wants to have teething problems being taken care of.

As Ben Smith stated to Luchtvaartnieuws.nl, he's keen to order new aircraft this year, which in my opinion would give the A350 the advantage. For me its also not clear if this is an order for only KLM or also for Air France.

More Dreamliners should be logical, so that I can agree on. But it wouldn't surprise me if they would go with the A350.

Cheers!

It's sort of guaranteed (almost 100%) that the 772s will be replaced by the 78X. I am guessing a group order of 20-30 787-9/10s , with the remaining going to AF. KLM didn't want the a359 before so I doubt they will go back for them again.

Is the 78X still the guaranteed 77E replacement? With the restrictions Eastwards considering the closure of Russian airspace, is the 78X capable enough to replace the 77E? Or is the A359 better for that job?

If the 787-10HGW Boeing has been working on turns out to have the same range as the 77E or maybe more then yes it is.. Why are yall pretending like the 787-10 is not getting a payload-range boost and why are you forcing the a350-900 onto KLM?

Don't get me wrong , the a359 is a absolute machine in its own right but not every airline is desperate to get one...A35K is a different story thou , and I do see a possibility for it in the KLM fleet

Sermons wrote:

marcelh wrote:

Sermons wrote:

It's sort of guaranteed (almost 100%) that the 772s will be replaced by the 78X. I am guessing a group order of 20-30 787-9/10s , with the remaining going to AF. KLM didn't want the a359 before so I doubt they will go back for them again.

Is the 78X still the guaranteed 77E replacement? With the restrictions Eastwards considering the closure of Russian airspace, is the 78X capable enough to replace the 77E? Or is the A359 better for that job?

If the 787-10HGW Boeing has been working on turns out to have the same range as the 77E or maybe more then yes it is.. Why are yall pretending like the 787-10 is not getting a payload-range boost and why are you forcing the a350-900 onto KLM?

Don't get me wrong , the a359 is a absolute machine in its own right but not every airline is desperate to get one...A35K is a different story thou , and I do see a possibility for it in the KLM fleet

The payload boost should be solid, but I think reports have been indicating the added range will be in the hundreds of nautical miles. According to the respective ACAPs at MTOW (57 metric ton payload), the 787-10 has approximately 4150nm of range, whereas the A350-900 has 5600nm. At say a 45 ton payload, the gap is similar with the 787-10 at 5250nm and the A350-900 at 6700nm. At just pax and bags (30 ton payload), the 787-10 is at 6700nm, while the A350-900 is at 8000nm. These numbers are not 100%, but they show the gist. The A350-900 has pretty similar range performance as the 777-200ER, but is far more efficient. I think an 787-10 HGW version would probably improve maybe by 500nm, considering the 787 frame is already pretty stretched with the standard 787-10. This still results in around ~1000 nm less range. The A350-900 is by far the more capable plane.

But at the end of the day, KLM has like 10-20 routes over 5250nm. Those can go to either the 787-9 or 777-300ER. There is admittedly a large capacity gap, with the 787-9 having 294 seats and the 777-300ER having 408 seats. However this narrow scenario is really not worth the trouble of a new type for KLM, considering their fleet size is just over 100. I agree that if KLM does get the A350, it'll be the A350-1000 as a 777-300ER replacement.

Meanwhile....

Flight KL0876 BKK - AMS got diverted to DXB, aircraft PH-BQL (772) suffered an engine malfunction while over Iranian airspace. Aircraft grounded untill further notice

Check out playback of flight KL876 from Bangkok to Amsterdam on Flightradar24. https://fr24.com/data/flights/kl876#3071f20b

Sermons wrote:

marcelh wrote:

Sermons wrote:

It's sort of guaranteed (almost 100%) that the 772s will be replaced by the 78X. I am guessing a group order of 20-30 787-9/10s , with the remaining going to AF. KLM didn't want the a359 before so I doubt they will go back for them again.

Is the 78X still the guaranteed 77E replacement? With the restrictions Eastwards considering the closure of Russian airspace, is the 78X capable enough to replace the 77E? Or is the A359 better for that job?

If the 787-10HGW Boeing has been working on turns out to have the same range as the 77E or maybe more then yes it is.. Why are yall pretending like the 787-10 is not getting a payload-range boost and why are you forcing the a350-900 onto KLM?

Wow, It seems I unintentionally stepped on some toes regarding my IMHO relevant question about the 78X being the best possible replacement for the 77E. Especially when you consider the closure of Russian airspace. Blaming me for “forcing the a350-900 onto KLM” is ridiculous, because your “if” about the 787-10HGW just answers my question: we don’t know.

Looking at your previous posts it’s more you are trying to force the A359 out with your “It's sort of guaranteed (almost 100%) that the 772s will be replaced by the 78X.” statement. Something with pot, kettle and black….
I’m not saying you are wrong, but IMO you are stating an opinion as a fact.

Don't get me wrong , the a359 is a absolute machine in its own right but not every airline is desperate to get one...A35K is a different story thou , and I do see a possibility for it in the KLM fleet

You don’t have to be desperate to get one. It only has to be the better fit. Not only in terms of raw capabilities, but also availability, pricing, operability with a possible A35K fleet, group politics, etc. As long as we don’t know what KLM will need long term, we only speculate.

- B773 PH-BVA not yet released pending certifications post-mod
- B78X PH-BKM delivery pending
- B789 PH-BHH premium cabin mod still underway

Overview KL Business Direct Aisle + Premium Comfort Class Mods - B773 - 15 modifications pending, 1 in progress

* PH-BVA - Under modification since April 18th 2023
PH-BVB -
PH-BVC -
PH-BVD -
PH-BVF -
PH-BVG -
PH-BVI -
PH-BVK -
PH-BVN -
PH-BVO -
PH-BVP -
PH-BVR -
PH-BVS -
PH-BVU -
PH-BVV -
PH-BVW -

Overview KL Premium Comfort Class Mods - B78X - 9 modifications completed, 1 pending

PH-BKA - Completed August 27th 2022, in service
PH-BKC - Completed October 8th 2022, in service
PH-BKD - Completed September 11th 2022, in service
PH-BKF - Completed October 13th 2022, in service
PH-BKG - Completed September 8th 2022, in service
PH-BKH - Completed September 29th 2022, in service
PH-BKL - Completed October 26th 2022, in service
PH-BKK - Completed February 22th 2023, in service
PH-BKI - Completed May 24th 2023, in service

* PH-BKM - New aircraft, unmodified, not yet delivered from Boeing, expected June 2023

Overview KL Premium Comfort Class Mods - B789 - 8 modifications completed, 1 in progress, 4 pending

PH-BHA - Completed February 4th 2023, in service
PH-BHC - Completed February 16th 2023, in service
PH-BHD - Completed April 11th 2023, in service
PH-BHE -
PH-BHF - Completed March 27th 2023, in service
PH-BHG - Completed March 2nd 2023, in service
* PH-BHH - Under modification since May 24th 2023
PH-BHI -
PH-BHL - Completed March 12th 2023, in service
PH-BHM -
PH-BHN -
PH-BHO - Completed March 19th 2023, in service
PH-BHP - Completed April 4th 2023, in service

LifelinerOne wrote:

marcelh wrote:

Sermons wrote:

It's sort of guaranteed (almost 100%) that the 772s will be replaced by the 78X. I am guessing a group order of 20-30 787-9/10s , with the remaining going to AF. KLM didn't want the a359 before so I doubt they will go back for them again.

Is the 78X still the guaranteed 77E replacement? With the restrictions Eastwards considering the closure of Russian airspace, is the 78X capable enough to replace the 77E? Or is the A359 better for that job?

You make a good point. Looking at the future, I don't think KLM can bet that Russian airspace will be reopened soon, so the B787-10 won't do the trick. They can go the route of ordering B777-9s and then move the B777-300ERs to the B777-200ERs routes. But with the oldest B777-300ER being 15 years old, this will be a temporary thing.

For me a combination of A350-900s/1000s would make sense to replace the B777-200ERs but also the oldest B777-300ERs in due course. Then, if needed capacity wise, they can always add on the B777-9.

Cheers!

Most of the B787-10 are needed to restore capacity of the early retired 747's. They intend to replace the A330's first so they need a lot of widebodies.

Sermons wrote:

marcelh wrote:

Sermons wrote:

It's sort of guaranteed (almost 100%) that the 772s will be replaced by the 78X. I am guessing a group order of 20-30 787-9/10s , with the remaining going to AF. KLM didn't want the a359 before so I doubt they will go back for them again.

Is the 78X still the guaranteed 77E replacement? With the restrictions Eastwards considering the closure of Russian airspace, is the 78X capable enough to replace the 77E? Or is the A359 better for that job?

If the 787-10HGW Boeing has been working on turns out to have the same range as the 77E or maybe more then yes it is.. Why are yall pretending like the 787-10 is not getting a payload-range boost and why are you forcing the a350-900 onto KLM?

Don't get me wrong , the a359 is a absolute machine in its own right but not every airline is desperate to get one...A35K is a different story thou , and I do see a possibility for it in the KLM fleet

The thing is, the situation has changed quite a bit with Russia's airspace now closed. Yes, they originally though they could to it without the A350s and replace the B777-200ERs with a combination of Dreamliners. And, the airline also didn't envision a situation where Schiphol would be forced to downsize.

It's not me that's talking KLM into the A350, the world situation means it would be strange not to reassess if you need a different kind of aircraft to do what you want to do. To be fair, I did say transfer the B777-300ERs to the B777-200ER routes and have the B777-9 replace them is an option. But then you still need something down the line to replace the B777-300ERs, and then the A350-1000 looks good.

As described below, even the increased B787-10 doesn't have the legs to replace all routes KLM is using the B777-200ER on, so the option is downgrading to less capacity to a B787-9, or replace them with the A350 as the B777-9 is way too big as a B777-200ER replacement.

My bet, an order for A350-1000s to replace its B777-200ERs and later on a B777-9 order to replace the B777-300ERs.

Cheers!

LifelinerOne wrote:

My bet, an order for A350-1000s to replace its B777-200ERs and later on a B777-9 order to replace the B777-300ERs.

Cheers!

I think there is a chance they might pick up a few 78X currently kept in storage by Boeing because the original customers don't want them at the moment. They could be heading to Amsterdam quite a bit sooner than any other option. There are four with GenX engines.

Just to clarify as I have access to the air insight article. This is what Ben Smith had to say about each of the options available as airnsight had access to the internal webcast

For any avoidance of doubt it seems the 787-10 IS the first option. 35K or 779 will be explored if they cannot get favourable delivery slots for the 787

on the 787-10:

More 787-10s would be the easiest option.
The preferred option seems to be buying more Dreamliners, said Smith in the webcast: “The 777 and 787 have a lot of synergies, like the dual cockpit qualification. There isn’t another airline in Europe that is positioned to have a fleet of aircraft that have that much commonality. More 787s would position us to have the most efficient widebody fleet in Europe. It saves on maintenance; it saves on training; it is a massive simplification.”

on the 35K and 777-9:

Ben Smith: “The A350-1000 is a very efficient aircraft which has got many improvements. However, it is a new aircraft type that has different engines. The 777-9 has yet to be certified and is already four years late. But it is very similar to the 777 that we already have, so there is a commonality there, but it is much bigger.”

link to article:

https://airinsight.com/klm-looks-at-mor ... -or-777-9/

loslhr wrote:

Just to clarify as I have access to the air insight article. This is what Ben Smith had to say about each of the options available as airnsight had access to the internal webcast

For any avoidance of doubt it seems the 787-10 IS the first option. 35K or 779 will be explored if they cannot get favourable delivery slots for the 787

on the 787-10:

More 787-10s would be the easiest option.
The preferred option seems to be buying more Dreamliners, said Smith in the webcast: “The 777 and 787 have a lot of synergies, like the dual cockpit qualification. There isn’t another airline in Europe that is positioned to have a fleet of aircraft that have that much commonality. More 787s would position us to have the most efficient widebody fleet in Europe. It saves on maintenance; it saves on training; it is a massive simplification.”

on the 35K and 777-9:

Ben Smith: “The A350-1000 is a very efficient aircraft which has got many improvements. However, it is a new aircraft type that has different engines. The 777-9 has yet to be certified and is already four years late. But it is very similar to the 777 that we already have, so there is a commonality there, but it is much bigger.”

link to article:

https://airinsight.com/klm-looks-at-mor ... -or-777-9/

Thanks for sharing. I think they’ll get more 787s and ultimately 777Xs due to increased capacity need with AMS limitations (and PE reduced total seat count) and commonality group with 787 and existing 777s while operated together.

Seems like A350s are pretty unlikely for KLM

ikolkyo wrote:

Seems like A350s are pretty unlikely for KLM

Not so unlikely as a few years ago IMO. At least as far as the -1000 is concerned. Yes, the commonality aspect is a huge advantage favoring a 777/787 fleet. If the 787-10 replaces the 77E then it's almost guaranteed the 777-9 will eventually be ordered too, as 77W replacement. But for the longest routes there would only be a choice between the smallest widebody (789, with 275 seats) and the largest (779, around 400 seats). Having an A35K with around 350 seats in between would make route planning quite a lot easier.

But we'll wait and see, it's all just speculating now. I do hope KL will make a decision to order soon, because production slots are indeed running out fast.

inkjet7 wrote:

LifelinerOne wrote:

My bet, an order for A350-1000s to replace its B777-200ERs and later on a B777-9 order to replace the B777-300ERs.

Cheers!

I think there is a chance they might pick up a few 78X currently kept in storage by Boeing because the original customers don't want them at the moment. They could be heading to Amsterdam quite a bit sooner than any other option. There are four with GenX engines.

You mean the VN 787-10s? It's a bit complicated because these were ordered by ALC. No idea what the status is of the deal between VN and ALC. Pretty sure ALC won't want to cancel that deal easily, and I don't think KLM will want to pay the same lease rates as VN.

In addition to look at how many pax can fit in. I think it is also important to see whether there is enough space in the belly for (small) freight transport. 30% of all KLM cargo consists of cut flowers and these must be delivered fresh all over the world. For example, fresh flowers must be delivered to a Japanese flowerstore within 48 hours. The success that the Netherlands is number one in the world with cut flowers is partly due to KLM's extensive international network. As a result, Dutch flowers can be delivered all over the world within 48 hours every day.

loslhr wrote:

Just to clarify as I have access to the air insight article. This is what Ben Smith had to say about each of the options available as airnsight had access to the internal webcast

For any avoidance of doubt it seems the 787-10 IS the first option. 35K or 779 will be explored if they cannot get favourable delivery slots for the 787

on the 787-10:

More 787-10s would be the easiest option.
The preferred option seems to be buying more Dreamliners, said Smith in the webcast: “The 777 and 787 have a lot of synergies, like the dual cockpit qualification. There isn’t another airline in Europe that is positioned to have a fleet of aircraft that have that much commonality. More 787s would position us to have the most efficient widebody fleet in Europe. It saves on maintenance; it saves on training; it is a massive simplification.”

on the 35K and 777-9:

Ben Smith: “The A350-1000 is a very efficient aircraft which has got many improvements. However, it is a new aircraft type that has different engines. The 777-9 has yet to be certified and is already four years late. But it is very similar to the 777 that we already have, so there is a commonality there, but it is much bigger.”

link to article:

https://airinsight.com/klm-looks-at-mor ... -or-777-9/

If I wanted to order the A350-1000 and get a good deal I’d say I really like the 787 and raise some drawbacks of the A350.

frigatebird wrote:

[
You mean the VN 787-10s? It's a bit complicated because these were ordered by ALC. No idea what the status is of the deal between VN and ALC. Pretty sure ALC won't want to cancel that deal easily, and I don't think KLM will want to pay the same lease rates as VN.

There's also an EVA plane stored (like the one KL picked up before, 1118) and a Saudie one. I think both the leasing companies and Boeing won't be happy having newly produced planes in the desert.

inkjet7 wrote:

frigatebird wrote:

[
You mean the VN 787-10s? It's a bit complicated because these were ordered by ALC. No idea what the status is of the deal between VN and ALC. Pretty sure ALC won't want to cancel that deal easily, and I don't think KLM will want to pay the same lease rates as VN.

There's also an EVA plane stored (like the one KL picked up before, 1118) and a Saudie one. I think both the leasing companies and Boeing won't be happy having newly produced planes in the desert.

Certainly true. Not sure if the EVA & Saudi 787s sitting in the desert are NTU or just not prioritized for rework yet. I did see reports VN wanted to get rid OF their leases of the new 787-10s. At some point Boeing will have cleared their backlog of rework and ALC then will have make a decision what to do with the VN frames, either force VN to take them risking non-payment of lease rates, or find another customer (like KLM) but with possibly lower lease rates.

Overview AF New Business Class Mods - B77W - 3 modifications pending, 2 in progress, 7 completed

F-GSQD -
F-GSQE -
F-GZNH -
F-GZNI - Completed May 4th 2023, in service
*F-GZNJ - Under modification since May 5th
F-GZNK - Completed January 20th 2023, in service
F-GZNP - Completed April 4th 2023, in service
F-GZNQ - Completed January 24th 2023, in service
F-GZNR - Completed May 30th 2023, in service
F-GZNS - Completed January 24th 2023, in service
F-GZNT - Completed March 31st 2023, in service
*F-GZNU - Under modification since April 1st

Meanwhile in KIX...

AF A359 F-HTYO got punched in the nose by a bird while going homebound from Japan to CDG

https://twitter.com/A350Blog/status/166 ... 60896?s=20

Check out playback of aircraft F-HTYO from Osaka to Paris on Flightradar24. https://fr24.com/data/aircraft/f-htyo#3078ca9e

Flight KL0461/0462 AMS - TLV v.v. upgauged from 737 to 772 as of yesterday. J pax got a significant cabin product upgrade

Check out playback of flight KL461 from Amsterdam to Tel Aviv on Flightradar24. https://fr24.com/data/flights/kl461#307ecb7a

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

Flight KL0461/0462 AMS - TLV v.v. upgauged from 737 to 772 as of yesterday. J pax got a significant cabin product upgrade

Check out playback of flight KL461 from Amsterdam to Tel Aviv on Flightradar24. https://fr24.com/data/flights/kl461#307ecb7a

Do J pax get a Delft Blue house on equipment swaps like this?

J pax will now get the whole nine yards service of the Intercontinental Business product I believe

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

J pax will now get the whole nine yards service of the Intercontinental Business product I believe

Why would they? That would be unusual for most airlines. Typically flights are provisioned based on the route, not the type of aircraft. Sometimes they'll add pillows and/or blankets where it wouldn't normally be provisioned, but if they don't typically cater a long haul meal, then I don't know why that would change just because there was an equipment swap. I wouldn't anticipate most aspects of service to be any different, and I doubt they'd hand out Delft houses.

atcsundevil wrote:

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

J pax will now get the whole nine yards service of the Intercontinental Business product I believe

Why would they? That would be unusual for most airlines. Typically flights are provisioned based on the route, not the type of aircraft. Sometimes they'll add pillows and/or blankets where it wouldn't normally be provisioned, but if they don't typically cater a long haul meal, then I don't know why that would change just because there was an equipment swap. I wouldn't anticipate most aspects of service to be any different, and I doubt they'd hand out Delft houses.

In this particular situation AF/KL do differ, I’m not sure if it is a union thing or what but they adapt service to aircraft type. Similar thing happened when AF switched from NB to WB on TLV a couple years back, service was aligned from regional (NB) to longhaul Short (and fares were adjusted accordingly).

Bit of a loophole was that you could book AF metal with KL prices if you played around with codes and such but that won’t be possible anymore either.

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

J pax will now get the whole nine yards service of the Intercontinental Business product I believe

That is NOT what KLM's own website tells its C Class passengers for TLV.
But the KLM website could well be wrong and NOT yet reflect the change to B777 equipment and Intercontinental Business Class service.

QUOTE:
June 1st, 2023 - KL461 AMS-TLV B777-200:

- Europe Business Class seat
Travel in style in this spacious seat with more legroom, more recline and a flexible headrest. Of course, we'll keep the middle seat free.

- Dining in Europe Business Class
Get ready to enjoy refined dishes and drinks with European notes, created for you with care.

(does anybody know what "European notes" are???)

http://www.klm.com

Due to fleet shortages KLM will introduce a Spanish Privilege Style A321 for the remainder of S23 on:

- MAD06.00 - AMS - MAD - AMS - BLL - AMS - MAD23.25 daily A321 Privilege Style Y214 seats

www.klm.com

factsonly wrote:

Due to fleet shortages KLM will introduce a Spanish Privilege Style A321 for the remainder of S23 on:

- MAD06.00 - AMS - MAD - AMS - BLL - AMS - MAD23.25 daily A321 Privilege Style Y214 seats

http://www.klm.com

Aircraft in question is an A321-231, registry EC-NLJ. Cabin config: J20-Y184. Wetlease for KLM Cityhopper.
Scheduled flights: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ec-nlj

- B789 PH-BHH Premium cabin mod completed, lead time approx. 9 days

- B773 PH-BVA not yet released pending certifications post-mod

Overview KL Business Direct Aisle + Premium Comfort Class Mods - B773 - 15 modifications pending, 1 in progress

* PH-BVA - Under modification since April 18th 2023
PH-BVB -
PH-BVC -
PH-BVD -
PH-BVF -
PH-BVG -
PH-BVI -
PH-BVK -
PH-BVN -
PH-BVO -
PH-BVP -
PH-BVR -
PH-BVS -
PH-BVU -
PH-BVV -
PH-BVW -

Overview KL Premium Comfort Class Mods - B78X - 9 modifications completed, 1 pending

PH-BKA - Completed August 27th 2022, in service
PH-BKC - Completed October 8th 2022, in service
PH-BKD - Completed September 11th 2022, in service
PH-BKF - Completed October 13th 2022, in service
PH-BKG - Completed September 8th 2022, in service
PH-BKH - Completed September 29th 2022, in service
PH-BKL - Completed October 26th 2022, in service
PH-BKK - Completed February 22th 2023, in service
PH-BKI - Completed May 24th 2023, in service
PH-BKM - New aircraft, unmodified, not yet delivered from Boeing, expected June 2023

PH-BKO - New aircraft on order
PH-BKR - New aircraft on order
PH-BKS - New aircraft on order
PH-BKR - New aircraft on order
PH-BKQ - New aircraft on order

Overview KL Premium Comfort Class Mods - B789 - 9 modifications completed, 4 pending

PH-BHA - Completed February 4th 2023, in service
PH-BHC - Completed February 16th 2023, in service
PH-BHD - Completed April 11th 2023, in service
PH-BHE -
PH-BHF - Completed March 27th 2023, in service
PH-BHG - Completed March 2nd 2023, in service
* PH-BHH - Completed June 2nd 2023, in service
PH-BHI -
PH-BHL - Completed March 12th 2023, in service
PH-BHM -
PH-BHN -
PH-BHO - Completed March 19th 2023, in service
PH-BHP - Completed April 4th 2023, in service

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

- B789 PH-BHH Premium cabin mod completed, lead time approx. 9 days

- B773 PH-BVA not yet released pending certifications post-mod

Overview KL Business Direct Aisle + Premium Comfort Class Mods - B773 - 15 modifications pending, 1 in progress

* PH-BVA - Under modification since April 18th 2023
PH-BVB -
PH-BVC -
PH-BVD -
PH-BVF -
PH-BVG -
PH-BVI -
PH-BVK -
PH-BVN -
PH-BVO -
PH-BVP -
PH-BVR -
PH-BVS -
PH-BVU -
PH-BVV -
PH-BVW -

Overview KL Premium Comfort Class Mods - B78X - 9 modifications completed, 1 pending

PH-BKA - Completed August 27th 2022, in service
PH-BKC - Completed October 8th 2022, in service
PH-BKD - Completed September 11th 2022, in service
PH-BKF - Completed October 13th 2022, in service
PH-BKG - Completed September 8th 2022, in service
PH-BKH - Completed September 29th 2022, in service
PH-BKL - Completed October 26th 2022, in service
PH-BKK - Completed February 22th 2023, in service
PH-BKI - Completed May 24th 2023, in service
PH-BKM - New aircraft, unmodified, not yet delivered from Boeing, expected June 2023

PH-BKO - New aircraft on order
PH-BKR - New aircraft on order
PH-BKS - New aircraft on order
PH-BKR - New aircraft on order
PH-BKQ - New aircraft on order

Overview KL Premium Comfort Class Mods - B789 - 9 modifications completed, 4 pending

PH-BHA - Completed February 4th 2023, in service
PH-BHC - Completed February 16th 2023, in service
PH-BHD - Completed April 11th 2023, in service
PH-BHE -
PH-BHF - Completed March 27th 2023, in service
PH-BHG - Completed March 2nd 2023, in service
* PH-BHH - Completed June 2nd 2023, in service
PH-BHI -
PH-BHL - Completed March 12th 2023, in service
PH-BHM -
PH-BHN -
PH-BHO - Completed March 19th 2023, in service
PH-BHP - Completed April 4th 2023, in service

I guess BHN will be next

747freak wrote:

I guess BHN will be next

True that, was brought in the hangar area yesterday

- B789 PH-BHN Premium cabin mod underway

- B773 PH-BVA not yet released pending certifications post-mod

Overview KL Business Direct Aisle + Premium Comfort Class Mods - B773 - 15 modifications pending, 1 in progress

* PH-BVA - Under modification since April 18th 2023
PH-BVB -
PH-BVC -
PH-BVD -
PH-BVF -
PH-BVG -
PH-BVI -
PH-BVK -
PH-BVN -
PH-BVO -
PH-BVP -
PH-BVR -
PH-BVS -
PH-BVU -
PH-BVV -
PH-BVW -

Overview KL Premium Comfort Class Mods - B78X - 9 modifications completed, 1 pending

PH-BKA - Completed August 27th 2022, in service
PH-BKC - Completed October 8th 2022, in service
PH-BKD - Completed September 11th 2022, in service
PH-BKF - Completed October 13th 2022, in service
PH-BKG - Completed September 8th 2022, in service
PH-BKH - Completed September 29th 2022, in service
PH-BKL - Completed October 26th 2022, in service
PH-BKK - Completed February 22th 2023, in service
PH-BKI - Completed May 24th 2023, in service
PH-BKM - New aircraft, unmodified, not yet delivered from Boeing, expected June 2023

PH-BKO - New aircraft on order
PH-BKR - New aircraft on order
PH-BKS - New aircraft on order
PH-BKR - New aircraft on order
PH-BKQ - New aircraft on order

Overview KL Premium Comfort Class Mods - B789 - 9 modifications completed, 1 in progress, 3 pending

PH-BHA - Completed February 4th 2023, in service
PH-BHC - Completed February 16th 2023, in service
PH-BHD - Completed April 11th 2023, in service
PH-BHE -
PH-BHF - Completed March 27th 2023, in service
PH-BHG - Completed March 2nd 2023, in service
PH-BHH - Completed June 2nd 2023, in service
PH-BHI -
PH-BHL - Completed March 12th 2023, in service
PH-BHM -
* PH-BHN - Under modification since June 2nd 2023
PH-BHO - Completed March 19th 2023, in service
PH-BHP - Completed April 4th 2023, in service

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

PH-BKO -
PH-BKR -
PH-BKS -
PH-BKR -
PH-BKQ -

I think it's BKO/P/S/U/V but maybe KL will use Q this time. That would make it BKO/P/Q/S/U.

It will be BKO/P/Q/R/S for the upcoming batch as far as I know.

PH-BKM is the last B78X to be delivered for 2023. The final five wont be expected untill 2024