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gunnerman
Posts: 1443
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:07 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
Two quick reasons why EIS has so much more service:

1. EIS uses ANU as a hub for passengers from the UK. The USVI-UK tourism market is insignificant.

2. EIS pays for airlift from regional carriers because of point 1. The USVI isn’t gonna pay any airline to be connected to ANU.

I have a recollection that back in the 1990s there was a weekly charter whose routeing was, I think, LGW-STT-EIS-LGW. After it was terminated I don't remember any resumption. The USVI and BVI have never been big destinations for British tourists.
 
303dk
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:42 pm

gunnerman wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
Two quick reasons why EIS has so much more service:

1. EIS uses ANU as a hub for passengers from the UK. The USVI-UK tourism market is insignificant.

2. EIS pays for airlift from regional carriers because of point 1. The USVI isn’t gonna pay any airline to be connected to ANU.

I have a recollection that back in the 1990s there was a weekly charter whose routeing was, I think, LGW-STT-EIS-LGW. After it was terminated I don't remember any resumption. The USVI and BVI have never been big destinations for British tourists.

There’s no way that EIS-LGW existed.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1443
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:57 pm

Correction: the BVI-bound passengers got off at STT and took a ferry, all part of a tour operator's package. The STT flights would have been shared with another destination, perhaps ANU. It's a long time ago, so cannot recall everything.
 
dominicl316
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:57 pm

Brickell305 wrote:

Re the USVI, locals may complain but the government isn’t going to step in on that front as they don’t view that as vital for tourism. In their minds if some people have to face an inconvenience visiting their second and third cousins, it’s no big deal. What matters is getting tourists on island.


Inter-regional tourism has become a more recent topic for the local government. The USVI Governor recently spoke at a regional conference sponsored by the Caribbean Hotel and Tourism Association.

Who knows, with the naturalized Eastern Caribbean population forming a large electorate in the USVI, we may very well see the USVI government subsidizing regional carriers to link us with the Eastern Caribbean.

The USVI Congresswoman has also introduced a bill to allow for a visa waiver for Eastern Caribbean citizens visiting the USVI for tourism, sports, and entertainment. The visa waiver would only be applicable on international flights that enter the USVI (they would still need a transit visa if they were connecting via SJU/MIA). The bill has bipartisan support. Also, the fact that USVI travelers must clear CBP to fly to the U.S. mainland has alleviated concerns that such a visa waiver would promote illegal immigration to the U.S. mainland.

Also to note: much of the the USVI-born population under the age of 40 still has first cousins who reside in the Eastern Caribbean. We still receive recent migrants from countries such as Dominica, St. Lucia, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines.
 
caribny
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:13 am

dominicl316 wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:

Re the USVI, locals may complain but the government isn’t going to step in on that front as they don’t view that as vital for tourism. In their minds if some people have to face an inconvenience visiting their second and third cousins, it’s no big deal. What matters is getting tourists on island.


Inter-regional tourism has become a more recent topic for the local government. The USVI Governor recently spoke at a regional conference sponsored by the Caribbean Hotel and Tourism Association.

Who knows, with the naturalized Eastern Caribbean population forming a large electorate in the USVI, we may very well see the USVI government subsidizing regional carriers to link us with the Eastern Caribbean.

The USVI Congresswoman has also introduced a bill to allow for a visa waiver for Eastern Caribbean citizens visiting the USVI for tourism, sports, and entertainment. The visa waiver would only be applicable on international flights that enter the USVI (they would still need a transit visa if they were connecting via SJU/MIA). The bill has bipartisan support. Also, the fact that USVI travelers must clear CBP to fly to the U.S. mainland has alleviated concerns that such a visa waiver would promote illegal immigration to the U.S. mainland.

Also to note: much of the the USVI-born population under the age of 40 still has first cousins who reside in the Eastern Caribbean. We still receive recent migrants from countries such as Dominica, St. Lucia, and St. Vincent and the Grenadines.



Thanks for confirming the attempts by the USVI to get visa waivers. If the USVI wasnt concerned about difficulties in access from the rest of the Caribbean they wouldnt go to the trouble of requesting this. The problem is if the USVI remain inaccessible it doesnt matter what visa waivers exist.

Also all travel within the Caribbean isnt about tourism. With Eastern Caribbean migrants accounting for a significant % of the voting population transportation becomes a matter of concerning. Dominicans, St Lucians, Kittitians and even Antiguans who remain a influential part of the voter base. I bet transportation back home is a growing issue, especially now that Air Sunshine doesnt seem to be around. When there are elections in the USVI there seems to be some level of campaigning in some of the neighboring islands. This is why the USVI requested membership of the OECS but were denied permission to do so by the US gov't.
 
wadadli
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:51 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:12 am

gunnerman wrote:
Correction: the BVI-bound passengers got off at STT and took a ferry, all part of a tour operator's package. The STT flights would have been shared with another destination, perhaps ANU. It's a long time ago, so cannot recall everything.


Correct...Sunsail (major Yatch charter company) operated the year round 1X weekly charter flight LGW-STT-ANU-LGW for many years as they had/have a sizeable operations in both BVI & ANU and formally operated a hotel (Sunsail Colonna) in ANU. The flight was operated by Air 2000 then First Choice Airways 767-300.
 
baje427
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:52 pm

Barbadian LI employees will receive severance payments I suspect this signals the conclusion of BGI's involvement with LI.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 2116
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:22 pm

baje427 wrote:
Barbadian LI employees will receive severance payments I suspect this signals the conclusion of BGI's involvement with LI.

Is this LI employees that were based in Barbados or is it all Barbadian LI employees regardless of where they were based?
 
baje427
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:53 am

Brickell305 wrote:
baje427 wrote:
Barbadian LI employees will receive severance payments I suspect this signals the conclusion of BGI's involvement with LI.

Is this LI employees that were based in Barbados or is it all Barbadian LI employees regardless of where they were based?

Based on the article it is Barbadian employees.
 
fowlr29
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:22 pm

Flyalways performing flights for JetAir.

Both JetAir's aircraft are down for maintenance. PJ-JAB has been down with a pressurization issue since January. PJ-JAC down now too, not sure if for scheduled or unscheduled mx. Schedule is about two days behind currently as all flights were cancelled yesterday, only half of the schedule for today done so far.

The F70s showing their age.
 
caribny
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:55 am

fowlr29 wrote:
Flyalways performing flights for JetAir.

Both JetAir's aircraft are down for maintenance. PJ-JAB has been down with a pressurization issue since January. PJ-JAC down now too, not sure if for scheduled or unscheduled mx. Schedule is about two days behind currently as all flights were cancelled yesterday, only half of the schedule for today done so far.

The F70s showing their age.


Good thing that PY is back or else who would service the PBM routes if JetAir is taking FlyAllways?
 
ButterBawse
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:52 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:18 am

9Y-ANU scheduled to leave Piarco for the final time tomorrow, March 23rd. This marks the end of 22 years of faithful service as well as the end of a 23 year era of BW 737NGs, and a 15 year era of the classic humming bird livery. They surely will be missed, blue skies and tail winds 9Y-ANU!
 
fowlr29
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:00 pm

caribny wrote:
fowlr29 wrote:
Flyalways performing flights for JetAir.

Both JetAir's aircraft are down for maintenance. PJ-JAB has been down with a pressurization issue since January. PJ-JAC down now too, not sure if for scheduled or unscheduled mx. Schedule is about two days behind currently as all flights were cancelled yesterday, only half of the schedule for today done so far.

The F70s showing their age.


Good thing that PY is back or else who would service the PBM routes if JetAir is taking FlyAllways?


They'll be back up and running hopefully, but the Fokkers must be proving an operational nuisance. They're not bad planes but the schedule JetAir is asking of it is extensive when taking into consideration that one aircraft has been flying nonstop since January. Lack of mx downtime on older airplanes that are flying all the time has lead to the position they are in now. An expensive short term wet lease contract with passengers being inconvienced in the process through cancelled and/or rescheduled flights.

Must be frustrating for the passengers. At least FlyAlways came to the rescue.
 
BonaireFly
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 12:36 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:30 pm

Unless they have deep pockets (which I doubt) I see Jetair Caribbean going the way of ALM, DCA, DAE and Insel Air pretty soon. One good thing they got going for them is that they’ve been very conservative with their expansion. However they’re fleet planning considering their existing/planned operations is terrible. The Fokkers are too expensive to maintain at their age and have become low utilisation aircraft that are more fit for charter operations much like they are currently used in Australia. And even there they are starting to replace them with second-hand Embraer-190s.
 
caribny
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:14 pm

BonaireFly wrote:
Unless they have deep pockets (which I doubt) I see Jetair Caribbean going the way of ALM, DCA, DAE and Insel Air pretty soon. One good thing they got going for them is that they’ve been very conservative with their expansion. However they’re fleet planning considering their existing/planned operations is terrible. The Fokkers are too expensive to maintain at their age and have become low utilisation aircraft that are more fit for charter operations much like they are currently used in Australia. And even there they are starting to replace them with second-hand Embraer-190s.


One advantage is that they face limited competition. WM with turbos and PY with its history of unreliability.
 
fowlr29
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:15 pm

caribny wrote:
BonaireFly wrote:
Unless they have deep pockets (which I doubt) I see Jetair Caribbean going the way of ALM, DCA, DAE and Insel Air pretty soon. One good thing they got going for them is that they’ve been very conservative with their expansion. However they’re fleet planning considering their existing/planned operations is terrible. The Fokkers are too expensive to maintain at their age and have become low utilisation aircraft that are more fit for charter operations much like they are currently used in Australia. And even there they are starting to replace them with second-hand Embraer-190s.


One advantage is that they face limited competition. WM with turbos and PY with its history of unreliability.


Wouldn't say that WM's ATR operation puts them at that much of a disadvantage compared to 4J on the SXM route. In fact I would say it makes no difference at all from a passenger perspective, and from a financial perspective the ATR is superior.

Yeah, flight time on average is about 45 minutes longer on the ATR, and from a business passenger perspective this isn't great, but WM's schedule allows for better (of both not perfect) business travel times. The primary travelers on the route aren't business travelers though it's VFR traffic and connecting passengers. VFR traffic concerned about price, of which both WM and 4J prices are aligned, and connecting passengers about easability of connections. WM's interlines allow passengers to connect onwards, while 4J has no interlines. This means that passengers can travel from CUR to AMS on one ticket through SXM. You'll be surprised how many passengers actually do this. WM's network puts them at a much bigger advantage to 4J, allowing connections to Haiti the following day (4J stopped CUR-PAP), SAB, EUX, and the rest of the Twin Otter schedule.

As for the rest of 4J's schedule besides SXM, yes, they face limited competition. CUR-AUA, and CUR-BON will get more flights from June with WM's ATR aircraft, KIN, MDE have no competition and PBM as you said with PY.

Unfortunately, I agree with the comment made above about 4J not lasting very long. I see it going this way as well. They've pulled PAP, and SDQ, and now are down to just SXM, MDE, PBM, KIN, AUA and BON. It's a high cost environment with not many routes to spread the costs over. Let's see how long it takes to get the F70s fixed.
 
maverick4002
Posts: 682
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:14 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:44 pm

AprOk I am back again. I am trying to book a round trip to Tobago from POS and there are ZERO FLIGHTS available. WOW. As of today, the next availability is on April 1 to get to TAB and then for the return the next availability is April 5!

Maybe I am trying at a busy time but this is wild. They need to put some more air capacity on there
 
Brickell305
Posts: 2116
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:01 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
AprOk I am back again. I am trying to book a round trip to Tobago from POS and there are ZERO FLIGHTS available. WOW. As of today, the next availability is on April 1 to get to TAB and then for the return the next availability is April 5!

Maybe I am trying at a busy time but this is wild. They need to put some more air capacity on there

I’m not sure what you’re seeing but I just found availability before that on the outbound (though it is tight) and the inbound looks fairly open.
 
ButterBawse
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:52 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:04 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
AprOk I am back again. I am trying to book a round trip to Tobago from POS and there are ZERO FLIGHTS available. WOW. As of today, the next availability is on April 1 to get to TAB and then for the return the next availability is April 5!

Maybe I am trying at a busy time but this is wild. They need to put some more air capacity on there

3 more ATRs coming soon. first scheduled to arrive late april ;)
 
maverick4002
Posts: 682
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:14 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:43 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:
AprOk I am back again. I am trying to book a round trip to Tobago from POS and there are ZERO FLIGHTS available. WOW. As of today, the next availability is on April 1 to get to TAB and then for the return the next availability is April 5!

Maybe I am trying at a busy time but this is wild. They need to put some more air capacity on there

I’m not sure what you’re seeing but I just found availability before that on the outbound (though it is tight) and the inbound looks fairly open.


I went on Caribbeans website and it was sold out
 
Brickell305
Posts: 2116
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:24 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:
AprOk I am back again. I am trying to book a round trip to Tobago from POS and there are ZERO FLIGHTS available. WOW. As of today, the next availability is on April 1 to get to TAB and then for the return the next availability is April 5!

Maybe I am trying at a busy time but this is wild. They need to put some more air capacity on there

I’m not sure what you’re seeing but I just found availability before that on the outbound (though it is tight) and the inbound looks fairly open.


I went on Caribbeans website and it was sold out

I see outbound tickets on Tuesday (3/28) and inbound looks pretty open after that. Alternatively, you could just show up at the airport. People change/miss that flight frequently. It’s usually pretty easy to get a seat.
 
caribny
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:47 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
I’m not sure what you’re seeing but I just found availability before that on the outbound (though it is tight) and the inbound looks fairly open.


I went on Caribbeans website and it was sold out

I see outbound tickets on Tuesday (3/28) and inbound looks pretty open after that. Alternatively, you could just show up at the airport. People change/miss that flight frequently. It’s usually pretty easy to get a seat.


Probably the Easter rush. Though I imagine beefing up the TAB bridge and service to BGI and GND will be a priority once the new planes arrive. New routes in the Eastern Caribbean will have to await the 3rd plane.
 
caribny
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:23 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:
AprOk I am back again. I am trying to book a round trip to Tobago from POS and there are ZERO FLIGHTS available. WOW. As of today, the next availability is on April 1 to get to TAB and then for the return the next availability is April 5!

Maybe I am trying at a busy time but this is wild. They need to put some more air capacity on there

I’m not sure what you’re seeing but I just found availability before that on the outbound (though it is tight) and the inbound looks fairly open.


I went on Caribbeans website and it was sold out



https://newsday.co.tt/2023/03/22/tobago ... ravellers/

Complaints about this.
 
baje427
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:57 pm

I noticed SkyHigh has been operating a few flights into BGI are these charters or proving flights ?
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 3013
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:28 am

caribny wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
I’m not sure what you’re seeing but I just found availability before that on the outbound (though it is tight) and the inbound looks fairly open.


I went on Caribbeans website and it was sold out



https://newsday.co.tt/2023/03/22/tobago ... ravellers/

Complaints about this.


Im convinced that BW's fleet of ATRs are not enough to support the airbridge. A higher-capacity aircraft should be dedicated to the route. (Not the 7M8). While I think the 717 would be perfect for the airbridge I understand why it's not a realistic option. 2nd option would be to go grab 1 or 2 736s that are parked and collecting dust. I could only imagine a lessor would be willing to work out a hell of a deal to get some revenue out of them. I'm spitballing here but it seems like it is a never-ending issue with the airbridge
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 1207
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:09 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Im convinced that BW's fleet of ATRs are not enough to support the airbridge. A higher-capacity aircraft should be dedicated to the route. (Not the 7M8). While I think the 717 would be perfect for the airbridge I understand why it's not a realistic option. 2nd option would be to go grab 1 or 2 736s that are parked and collecting dust. I could only imagine a lessor would be willing to work out a hell of a deal to get some revenue out of them. I'm spitballing here but it seems like it is a never-ending issue with the airbridge


BW needs to focus on their original plan for the ATR's which were bought to primarily operate the airbridge. I can't see how 7 ATR's with a possible increase to 10 isn't enough capacity. All BW needs to do is increase frequency. They certainly have the equipment. Their expansion plans of going up the island chain with the ATRs isn't inline with the governments' needs of operating the airbridge. I get that the airbridge is incredibly loss making, but the GORTT will have no choice but to subsidize so its no loss to BW. No need upgauge to jet equipment on this route unless its the occasional 7M8 to augment really high peak demand like the Easter or carnival weekends.
 
A388
Posts: 8256
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:26 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
I get that the airbridge is incredibly loss making, but the GORTT will have no choice but to subsidize so its no loss to BW.


Any loss the government has will have its affectcon BW which is fully government owned too. I don't think that absorbing losses by the government won't have any affect on BW because it simply means less money available to BW. So I
think it isn't correct to say that it is no loss to BW because I think eventually it is.

A388
 
caribbean484
Posts: 1196
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:57 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:31 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Im convinced that BW's fleet of ATRs are not enough to support the airbridge. A higher-capacity aircraft should be dedicated to the route. (Not the 7M8). While I think the 717 would be perfect for the airbridge I understand why it's not a realistic option. 2nd option would be to go grab 1 or 2 736s that are parked and collecting dust. I could only imagine a lessor would be willing to work out a hell of a deal to get some revenue out of them. I'm spitballing here but it seems like it is a never-ending issue with the airbridge


BW needs to focus on their original plan for the ATR's which were bought to primarily operate the airbridge. I can't see how 7 ATR's with a possible increase to 10 isn't enough capacity. All BW needs to do is increase frequency. They certainly have the equipment. Their expansion plans of going up the island chain with the ATRs isn't inline with the governments' needs of operating the airbridge. I get that the airbridge is incredibly loss making, but the GORTT will have no choice but to subsidize so its no loss to BW. No need upgauge to jet equipment on this route unless its the occasional 7M8 to augment really high peak demand like the Easter or carnival weekends.


The ATRs we bought for regional and Inter Island routes, not just for POS-TAB. The reason for going to 10 ATRs is a government strategy to connect the Caribbean. They don't need to increase capacity, they route needs to be managed just like their international route, since the GOTT has specifically said they are not getting any more subsidies for operating the route. Since that is a mandate then they have no choice but to reduce the schedule and fly the a/cs to where they actually make money. Since the Government wants BW to operate as a commercial entity then the reduction in loss making routes is a necessity.
The fact is POS-TAB-POS is a highly directional route, where on weekends everyone wants to go to TAB, Thr-Sat while the a/c coming back are half full, amplifying the losses the airline is taking in. So until the GOTT dedicates to fully absorbing the loses or the route is actually priced to the market, any increase from now on will be incremental at best to protect the finances of the airline.
 
fowlr29
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:47 pm

baje427 wrote:
I noticed SkyHigh has been operating a few flights into BGI are these charters or proving flights ?


They wouldn't need to prove to operate to BGI, so I would assume they are charters.
 
caribbean484
Posts: 1196
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:57 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:02 pm

In reading Arajet's application to the USDOT, I saw a number of people have objected to DM being given route rights to fly to the US on various claims that:
DM ownership structure is not clear.
There are issues with the airline's political entanglement.
The airline is former Dominican Wings AOC and using their Tax ID; and here is one such complaints. Now DM has not yet replied to the complaints but what are thoughts of these objections as I am not too Intune with Dominican Aviation.
https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0260-0017
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 1207
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:00 pm

caribbean484 wrote:
The ATRs we bought for regional and Inter Island routes, not just for POS-TAB. The reason for going to 10 ATRs is a government strategy to connect the Caribbean. They don't need to increase capacity, they route needs to be managed just like their international route, since the GOTT has specifically said they are not getting any more subsidies for operating the route. Since that is a mandate then they have no choice but to reduce the schedule and fly the a/cs to where they actually make money. Since the Government wants BW to operate as a commercial entity then the reduction in loss making routes is a necessity.
The fact is POS-TAB-POS is a highly directional route, where on weekends everyone wants to go to TAB, Thr-Sat while the a/c coming back are half full, amplifying the losses the airline is taking in. So until the GOTT dedicates to fully absorbing the loses or the route is actually priced to the market, any increase from now on will be incremental at best to protect the finances of the airline.


Lets not forget that BW's turboprop operations replaced Tabex which had 5 Dash 8's solely operating POS-TAB. BW initially ordered 5 ATRs as a one for one swap but then began operating regional flights which clearly reduced seats operating to TAB. They subsequently increased to 7. Operating the ATRs outside POS-TAB was a way to minimize losses on that fleet. So my original observation still stands. BW has the equipment to adequately serve the airbridge. Now they're going to 10 ATRs. We'll see how much aircraft will be solely dedicated to the airbridge flights.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1443
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:57 pm

What happened to the plan to build a port at Toco Bay for ferry and cargo vessels?
 
fowlr29
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:09 pm

From May 1st Winair joining KLM/Air France Flying Blue Loyalty Programme

"-----AIRPORT--WINAIR will be cooperating with KLM/ Air France Flying Blue loyalty programme, which will take effect as of May 1, 2023.-----

With the KLM/Air France Flying Blue programme, members will receive mileage awards for travel with KLM/ Air France and its partners. Flying Blue members will be able to accrue and redeem miles for their entire trip including eligible WINAIR flights when flying with KLM and Air France.

In Q4 2023 Flying Blue members will accrue and redeem miles on WINAIR flights, when KLM/ Air France is not part of their itinerary.

“WINAIR is pleased to participate with KLM/Air France in the Flying Blue programme which rewards our mutual customers’ loyalty,” stated CEO and President of WINAIR Michael D. Cleaver.

Joining the Flying Blue programme is free as well as easy, it was stated in a press release. To join or learn more about the benefits and rewards of the Flying Blue Frequent Flyer programme, persons can go to flyingblue.com ."
 
embraer175e2
Posts: 682
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:47 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:49 pm

Dominican Republic Airline SkyCana eyes destination Guyana. Host talks with CJIA officials.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... tid=Nif5oz
 
embraer175e2
Posts: 682
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:47 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:50 pm

Arrival of British Airways Boeing 777 at CJIA Guyana.

https://fb.watch/jyYa7mXwJx/
 
fowlr29
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:31 pm

Don't know if this was posted here but BW has upgauged CUR to the 737. Changed happened from the 24th March.
 
caribny
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:51 am

A388 wrote:
LimaFoxTango wrote:
I get that the airbridge is incredibly loss making, but the GORTT will have no choice but to subsidize so its no loss to BW.


Any loss the government has will have its affectcon BW which is fully government owned too. I don't think that absorbing losses by the government won't have any affect on BW because it simply means less money available to BW. So I
think it isn't correct to say that it is no loss to BW because I think eventually it is.

A388


The way it works is that BW gets a subsidy based on passengers carried. The problem seems to be that they are not paid based on seats provided. They are forced to provide capacity to allow ease of travel between the islands and seem to have to provide stand by capacity to ensure that everyone who wishes to travel is able to do so. BW is therefore forced to provide unsubsidized seats if these are unfilled. As this is a social route where profit considerations cannot be applied, and as T&T is less willing to subsidize BW, there must be revisions to this. This route should operate as its own profit center, allowing subsidies to be directed to the TAB airbridge, and not to BWs international operations.

I believe that in 2019 the bulk of the operating losses were on the TAB route with the international routes (aside from those based out of Jamaica) being at least break even. Even though BW is state owned its goal is to operate as a financial self sufficient entity.
 
caribny
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:55 am

fowlr29 wrote:
Don't know if this was posted here but BW has upgauged CUR to the 737. Changed happened from the 24th March.


Maybe to compete against PY now that they are back, plus likely post pandemic improvement in passenger loads.
 
trintocan
Posts: 2865
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Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:50 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
caribbean484 wrote:
The ATRs we bought for regional and Inter Island routes, not just for POS-TAB. The reason for going to 10 ATRs is a government strategy to connect the Caribbean. They don't need to increase capacity, they route needs to be managed just like their international route, since the GOTT has specifically said they are not getting any more subsidies for operating the route. Since that is a mandate then they have no choice but to reduce the schedule and fly the a/cs to where they actually make money. Since the Government wants BW to operate as a commercial entity then the reduction in loss making routes is a necessity.
The fact is POS-TAB-POS is a highly directional route, where on weekends everyone wants to go to TAB, Thr-Sat while the a/c coming back are half full, amplifying the losses the airline is taking in. So until the GOTT dedicates to fully absorbing the loses or the route is actually priced to the market, any increase from now on will be incremental at best to protect the finances of the airline.


Lets not forget that BW's turboprop operations replaced Tabex which had 5 Dash 8's solely operating POS-TAB. BW initially ordered 5 ATRs as a one for one swap but then began operating regional flights which clearly reduced seats operating to TAB. They subsequently increased to 7. Operating the ATRs outside POS-TAB was a way to minimize losses on that fleet. So my original observation still stands. BW has the equipment to adequately serve the airbridge. Now they're going to 10 ATRs. We'll see how much aircraft will be solely dedicated to the airbridge flights.


Another day, another year, another Airbridge controversy. This is a never-ending tale which has played out over the many years that the route has operated. I spoken about this before but, for those who may have joined recently, I'll give an overview.

The POS-TAB route, known colloquially as the Airbridge, is the busiest route within the Caribbean. The flight, currently scheduled for 15 minutes in both directions, provides one of the key links between the islands of the Republic (the other is a ferry service). Various operators, both Government and privately-owned, have flown the route over the years with Caribbean Airlines (BW) the sole provider since their 2007 inception. While the route is important to the country as a whole it is significantly more critical for TAB owing to Tobago's great dependence on Trinidad for a variety of services (think medical, legal and the like). The many family ties between the islands also contributes with, as my Mum (born in Tobago) always says, events like funerals in particular seeing many seeking to fly to TAB. Add to this the domestic tourism which is now Tobago's mainstay and one sees how the route can generate traffic of about 750,000 or more annually.

The Airbridge is subsidised by the Government and, as CaribNY notes, the subsidy is paid per passenger travelling. (I did not specifically know this but it makes sense inasmuch as each fare, currently TT$300 or about US $45 return is subsidised.) The actual cost of providing a seat is probably close to double that charged - I have no recent figures but the increasing cost of fuel, aircraft leases and the like suggest this. On balance though the route runs at a loss (if one excludes the subsidies) and this puts a drain on BW's finances, which are instead shored up by the international services. BW currently operate 12-13 daily round-trips, down from the 20 pre-pandemic and, with subsidies being frozen, they feel little incentive to increase services. The problem with that is at busy periods like Easter (now in other words) and summer flights get solidly-booked and people are unable to travel, especially at short notice. This then generates the animosity that one reads about in local newspapers or online.

BW now have 7 ATRs with 3 more coming in. Prior to the pandemic lockdowns they managed the 20 or so daily Airbridge ops alongside regional routes with 5 ATRs, only rising to 7 just as things unravelled. As such they have, in theory, the capacity to run more domestic turns. A potential pitfall is that their regional network is somewhat different from that before. Up to 2020 they flew ATRs on 1 daily turn to SLU, 1-2 daily to GND, 1-2 daily to BGI (alongside a daily 738), 2-3 weekly to SVD (alongside a weekly 738 which continued to JFK), 1 daily to OGL, 2-3 weekly to CUR and 1 weekly to CCS. Nowadays they still have GND, BGI, SVD, OGL and SLU (albeit at lower frequencies) but also DOM and services linking BGI with SVD, GND, OGL and TAB. CUR has now gone to the 7M8. At one stage the ATRs had reliability issues at BW which were put down to their heavy cycle accumulation on domestic turns. The regional routes eased this matter somewhat so the problems are now past. These routes also allow commercial fares to be charged and hence are potentially more profitable.

So, what is the solution to the Airbridge? No option is particularly easy. BW could leave the frequency as it is if they get no further subsidies but this could have a deleterious effect on TAB's economy, especially as its international tourist arrivals are sharply. There would also be the tangled scenes at both airports at busy times. If they increased flights without further subsidies the capacity problems may be resolved but the balance sheets would then scream. If subsidies were increased then the flights could be more easily justified but the Government is cash-strapped. Finally, an increase in fares could make the route profitable but again TAB would be disproportionately affected.

I think that BW should aim to return to the 20 daily as the market for this frequency is there. The rise in traffic which has been occurring will likely warrant this in due course and pre-pandemic all 20/day ran full or close to it. In fact BW started a flight at 0045HR northbound and 0145HR southbound which was the only one to reliably have some space at short notice. The issue will be how to enhance this capacity sustainably.

Once again, time will tell how this is handled.

Trintocan.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:49 pm

trintocan wrote:
The flight, currently scheduled for 15 minutes in both directions, provides one of the key links between the islands of the Republic (the other is a ferry service). Various operators, both Government and privately-owned, have flown the route over the years with Caribbean Airlines (BW) the sole provider since their 2007 inception.


trintocan wrote:
While the route is important to the country as a whole it is significantly more critical for TAB owing to Tobago's great dependence on Trinidad for a variety of services (think medical, legal and the like).


I think that, baldly lost in the discussion (and validly so, considering the forum), is that the 'ferry' service(s) have vastly improved towards customer needs/focus/direction over time (and more so, recently). In the past (during the 1990s-to-early 2000s), the ferry service was POS focused, and catered mostly to commercial entities operating in Trinidad that essentially 'escorted' (or, existed to serve as exportation service) that would supply Tobago with services such as foodstuffs, medical supplies, and mostly finished goods that were not capable of being locally produced in Tobago (which does not have a diversified, or large scale farm/heavy/petrochemical base/industry to call from/upon). Colloquially, it was said that if the ferry did not operate that day, there would be no bread in shops, in Tobago, the next. Today, and along the way, the offering/availability and pricing - has been favored/curried with the local population, by more reliable ships, better services on board, and better options (notably, allowing passengers to transport their vehicles). This, thus, marries (Air, and Sea) services/needs on the route and it cannot be understated how/when these services merge for individuals traveling to Tobago. It's not uncommon to have one member (of a family/group) take a vehicle from Trinidad, via Ferry - to Tobago, and use said vehicle to transport the other members who flew (simply to save time, or to cater to specific travelers {notably, younger/older/frail family members, to whom the hours long ferry services is not applicable/appealing}. What cargo needs, as well as, what business needs are now much more accounted for, when one can 'pack-the-car' via Ferry, and fly-the-fuss, via Air. This can also help explain why/how the Air services can suffer and/or see greater depreciations when the ferry is often available, often needed and can offer much more capacity at lower costs, and with often essential items on-board/in trunk, to boot.

High(er) speed transportation (favoring passengers and key cargo) arrived with the age of aircraft, and has had quite a few bright spots (considering the nature of the operation). So, they are often used in tandem, however - I would like to be clear, a 15 minute flight does not compare to a 3.5 hour ferry ride, even at a price advantage. I hoped to offer this, to explain how where the ex-Tobago market is served, and to explain that the air component is not the only one, but rather/perhaps the more fragile - as there exists a company whose sole purpose is inter-island (Trinidad-Tobago), and who is government subsidized, and who does perhaps better cater to more domestic travelers, in more cases. To consider that the Air Bridge exists here, and does so with such frequency and skill - is truly breathtaking, and comments on the breadth of the market at hand.

trintocan wrote:
Trintocan.


I would like to thank you, for a brilliant post, with such great depth and nuances converging in an apropos view of the topic, from the sky. It's fascinating to consider where this route could go, and/or how future technologies will help/hurt viability of this operator (and, I do think back to times in which BW {or iteration} was not the sole operator on the route}). I do wonder how/where electric, VTOL, new(er) airfields, greater capacity air options, and greater at-sea developments/options would change the nature of the servings offered on the market. I would like to thank you for not only discussing it with such knowledge and respect, but also, for taking us down the path of how/where this market is now, and/or how/where there is space for growth (based on past precedence, and/or with future growth considerations in mind). Remaining neutral (at the moment) regarding the government's stance-du-jour on expanding offerings/subsides, I would add to your note, that while all of this topics discussed to have far and broad reaching effects on the island of Tobago, most of the air-based options likely provide (while higher costing), more higher yielding passengers to Tobago (and can, within the context of the Trinidad-Tobago market), and likely is within the purview of those that make considerations of choice here be it individual consumers and/or those providing auxiliary services and/or the government agencies/decision markers that determine how/where these services are offered. During a market event (such as Easter) we can see how these services are flexed and uniquely stressed over what is otherwise a well served, and responsive market. Should greater services be offered, on/around these key market events - perhaps. However, let's also be cognoscent of the fact that Tobago's capacity does not flex as well (hotel/rental-car/services capacities) and while these market/services caps may anger some - paper outrage withstanding, proper reservations and conscious/logistical considerations were needed (in advance) to cater to these key influxes. I would like to thank you again, for offering how such an in-depth analysis of the Air component and opening the conversation (once again) to where/when expansion and/or future capacities are possible/needed/considerable.
 
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Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:28 am

Fly Allways starting PBM-GEO-BGI-KIN-BGI-GEO-PBM on 5th May 2023. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqGN1X6gE2f/
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aa1818
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Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:57 am

trintocan wrote:
... as each fare, currently TT$300 or about US $45 return is subsidised.

The fare was increased to TT$400 (return) in the last budget I believe effective January 1st 2023.

trintocan wrote:
So, what is the solution to the Airbridge? No option is particularly easy. BW could leave the frequency as it is if they get no further subsidies but this could have a deleterious effect on TAB's economy, especially as its international tourist arrivals are sharply. There would also be the tangled scenes at both airports at busy times. If they increased flights without further subsidies the capacity problems may be resolved but the balance sheets would then scream. If subsidies were increased then the flights could be more easily justified but the Government is cash-strapped. Finally, an increase in fares could make the route profitable but again TAB would be disproportionately affected.

I think that BW should aim to return to the 20 daily as the market for this frequency is there. The rise in traffic which has been occurring will likely warrant this in due course and pre-pandemic all 20/day ran full or close to it. In fact BW started a flight at 0045HR northbound and 0145HR southbound which was the only one to reliably have some space at short notice. The issue will be how to enhance this capacity sustainably.
Trintocan.


Personally, I think that the airbridge should not be subsidized.
The subsidized Ferry takes 2.5 hours and that should be what the Government focuses on and perhaps increases capacity and reliability on. The Airbridge should be allowed to be priced commercially, and CAL should be allowed to profit from it, or at least break-even on it.

The ferry service reliability has improved and generally been maintained over the years (with pockets of scandal in between). But no one should be entitled to a subsidized 20-minute flight when the reasonable 2.5 hour ferry is already subsidized at great State expense.

That just my (unpopular) opinion.

Cheers,
AA1818
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 1207
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:41 pm

aa1818 wrote:
Personally, I think that the airbridge should not be subsidized.
The subsidized Ferry takes 2.5 hours and that should be what the Government focuses on and perhaps increases capacity and reliability on. The Airbridge should be allowed to be priced commercially, and CAL should be allowed to profit from it, or at least break-even on it.

The ferry service reliability has improved and generally been maintained over the years (with pockets of scandal in between). But no one should be entitled to a subsidized 20-minute flight when the reasonable 2.5 hour ferry is already subsidized at great State expense.

That just my (unpopular) opinion.

Cheers,
AA1818


I respect your opinion, but not sure why the govt would subsidize one and not the other given they both are practically state entities. The ferry and air service both serve a different but equally important market segments. It would be great if both could be operated on commercially economic principles, but how realistic could that be? What would be a affordable but still economically viable airfare for that route? Currently at $400TT equivalent to about $60US, what increase can the population afford? How does this fare compare to other similarly domestic runs around the world?
 
Brickell305
Posts: 2116
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:07 pm

aa1818 wrote:
trintocan wrote:
... as each fare, currently TT$300 or about US $45 return is subsidised.

The fare was increased to TT$400 (return) in the last budget I believe effective January 1st 2023.

trintocan wrote:
So, what is the solution to the Airbridge? No option is particularly easy. BW could leave the frequency as it is if they get no further subsidies but this could have a deleterious effect on TAB's economy, especially as its international tourist arrivals are sharply. There would also be the tangled scenes at both airports at busy times. If they increased flights without further subsidies the capacity problems may be resolved but the balance sheets would then scream. If subsidies were increased then the flights could be more easily justified but the Government is cash-strapped. Finally, an increase in fares could make the route profitable but again TAB would be disproportionately affected.

I think that BW should aim to return to the 20 daily as the market for this frequency is there. The rise in traffic which has been occurring will likely warrant this in due course and pre-pandemic all 20/day ran full or close to it. In fact BW started a flight at 0045HR northbound and 0145HR southbound which was the only one to reliably have some space at short notice. The issue will be how to enhance this capacity sustainably.
Trintocan.


Personally, I think that the airbridge should not be subsidized.
The subsidized Ferry takes 2.5 hours and that should be what the Government focuses on and perhaps increases capacity and reliability on. The Airbridge should be allowed to be priced commercially, and CAL should be allowed to profit from it, or at least break-even on it.

The ferry service reliability has improved and generally been maintained over the years (with pockets of scandal in between). But no one should be entitled to a subsidized 20-minute flight when the reasonable 2.5 hour ferry is already subsidized at great State expense.

That just my (unpopular) opinion.

Cheers,
AA1818

I agree. I think the subsidy should focus on the ferry and that people should pay for the convenience and speed of the flight. I actually think the subsidy hurts Tobago's international tourism as it hinders American carriers especially from being able to correctly price potential TAB flights. These would likely be more expensive than POS flights based on the nature of both markets but it would not be feasible to adequately price them when potential customers can simply fly to POS and then pay an extra $400TT to get to/from TAB.

The subsidized flights have also hurt TAB in another way. Instead of attempting to attract international tourists, TAB now relies extremely heavily on domestic tourists (fueled by the cheap subsidized flights), many of whom stay for only the weekend. Catering to that market disincentivizes investing in things like all-inclusive resorts or major brand name hotels which attract international tourists and that created a vicious circle in TAB. The less dependent they became on international tourists, the less they catered to them and the less they catered to them, the less attractive the island became to international tourists. Now, Tobago residents may be fine with that but IMO Tobago punches well below its weight in its ability to attract international tourists and air service. Ending subsidized flights would likely lead to a decrease in domestic tourists and TAB would realize that it needs to make up the difference with international tourists. This would likely lead to an upgrade of existing facilities and possibly new investment.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 2116
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:16 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
aa1818 wrote:
Personally, I think that the airbridge should not be subsidized.
The subsidized Ferry takes 2.5 hours and that should be what the Government focuses on and perhaps increases capacity and reliability on. The Airbridge should be allowed to be priced commercially, and CAL should be allowed to profit from it, or at least break-even on it.

The ferry service reliability has improved and generally been maintained over the years (with pockets of scandal in between). But no one should be entitled to a subsidized 20-minute flight when the reasonable 2.5 hour ferry is already subsidized at great State expense.

That just my (unpopular) opinion.

Cheers,
AA1818


I respect your opinion, but not sure why the govt would subsidize one and not the other given they both are practically state entities. The ferry and air service both serve a different but equally important market segments. It would be great if both could be operated on commercially economic principles, but how realistic could that be? What would be a affordable but still economically viable airfare for that route? Currently at $400TT equivalent to about $60US, what increase can the population afford? How does this fare compare to other similarly domestic runs around the world?

The Bahamas is fairly similar to Trinidad & Tobago in the sense that the main services e.g. medical, legal, etc. are primarily located on the main island (Nassau). However, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, domestic flights in the Bahamas are around US$180 to US$300.
 
caribbean484
Posts: 1196
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:57 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:01 pm

aa1818 wrote:
trintocan wrote:
... as each fare, currently TT$300 or about US $45 return is subsidised.

The fare was increased to TT$400 (return) in the last budget I believe effective January 1st 2023.

trintocan wrote:
So, what is the solution to the Airbridge? No option is particularly easy. BW could leave the frequency as it is if they get no further subsidies but this could have a deleterious effect on TAB's economy, especially as its international tourist arrivals are sharply. There would also be the tangled scenes at both airports at busy times. If they increased flights without further subsidies the capacity problems may be resolved but the balance sheets would then scream. If subsidies were increased then the flights could be more easily justified but the Government is cash-strapped. Finally, an increase in fares could make the route profitable but again TAB would be disproportionately affected.

I think that BW should aim to return to the 20 daily as the market for this frequency is there. The rise in traffic which has been occurring will likely warrant this in due course and pre-pandemic all 20/day ran full or close to it. In fact BW started a flight at 0045HR northbound and 0145HR southbound which was the only one to reliably have some space at short notice. The issue will be how to enhance this capacity sustainably.
Trintocan.


Personally, I think that the airbridge should not be subsidized.
The subsidized Ferry takes 2.5 hours and that should be what the Government focuses on and perhaps increases capacity and reliability on. The Airbridge should be allowed to be priced commercially, and CAL should be allowed to profit from it, or at least break-even on it.

The ferry service reliability has improved and generally been maintained over the years (with pockets of scandal in between). But no one should be entitled to a subsidized 20-minute flight when the reasonable 2.5 hour ferry is already subsidized at great State expense.

That just my (unpopular) opinion.

Cheers,
AA1818


I have to agree that it is time the airbridge is stopped being subsided by the GOTT and as Brickle mention it distorts the market to both the local and international tourism.
For example in the past it was overall cheaper to go POS-TAB-LGW with the US$40 round trip fare instead of POS-LGW or even POS-BGI-LGW.
Not only is the subsidy is hurting BW, the AATT is also not getting things such as pax deplanement fees, security fees and concourse use fees. BW still has to pays navigational fees, landing fees, etc for its operations, as well as the issue of increases in fuel which the airline pays at market prices for this route.
As Caribny mentioned the airline only gets subsidy on a per pax basis not seats, so when the a/c leaves with empty seats it just exacerbates the issue of losses on the route.If the GOTT is not willing to increase the subsidy, (They only increase the fare by US$14 round trip) and then telling BW to operate profitably then I believe no more than 15 flights per day is necessary, down from the 22-23 they used to operate pre-Covid.

As for the ferry, as Trintocan mentioned in years past ferry would take 6-8hrs, now wiith the new fast ferries the trip is 2.5hrs to 3.5hrs depending on weather and the ship being used. There are 3 fast ferries with a capacity of 700-900 each every day for about 2600pax total. At peak times they would typically double the sailing of the 2 fast ferries to 5 sailings per day, for example holy Thursday they have 2 additional sailings for about 1600 seats more available for that particular day.
BW at 68 seats per ATR at 22 flights at peak schedule is 1,496pax, that is a lot of capacity on a route where hotel capacity on the island is another issue.


Brickell305 wrote:
The Bahamas is fairly similar to Trinidad & Tobago in the sense that the main services e.g. medical, legal, etc. are primarily located on the main island (Nassau). However, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, domestic flights in the Bahamas are around US$180 to US$300.


Yes I believe that local routes within The Bahamas are flown on a commercial basis, and they also have inter-islands ferry that are subsidized services as well as full commercial services.
 
A388
Posts: 8256
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Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:02 pm

caribny wrote:
The way it works is that BW gets a subsidy based on passengers carried. The problem seems to be that they are not paid based on seats provided. They are forced to provide capacity to allow ease of travel between the islands and seem to have to provide stand by capacity to ensure that everyone who wishes to travel is able to do so. BW is therefore forced to provide unsubsidized seats if these are unfilled. As this is a social route where profit considerations cannot be applied, and as T&T is less willing to subsidize BW, there must be revisions to this. This route should operate as its own profit center, allowing subsidies to be directed to the TAB airbridge, and not to BWs international operations.

I believe that in 2019 the bulk of the operating losses were on the TAB route with the international routes (aside from those based out of Jamaica) being at least break even. Even though BW is state owned its goal is to operate as a financial self sufficient entity.


So the TAB route is completely wrongly managed by providing subsidies for passengers carried and not seats provided. I agree with you that this route should be managed as its own profit center and not let all their other routes feeling the pain of the loss making TAB air bridge.


A388
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1443
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:30 pm

It's quite widespread for unprofitable routes (but deemed to be socially desirable by the central or local govenment) to be subsidised. In the US there is the Essential Air Service and in Europe there is Public Service Obligation (PSO) for operators of air, sea, road or rail services. What typically happens is that an airline will get all the revenue plus the estimated difference between revenue and a specified profit figure in the contract, thus incentivising the airline to increase revenue in case the subsidy proves to be inadequate. I presume that BW gets all the revenue from ticket sales plus the seat subsidy, and if so there is no incentive to increase capacity which provides no additional revenue for unsold seats whilst increasing costs.
 
caribny
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:22 pm

A388 wrote:
caribny wrote:
The way it works is that BW gets a subsidy based on passengers carried. The problem seems to be that they are not paid based on seats provided. They are forced to provide capacity to allow ease of travel between the islands and seem to have to provide stand by capacity to ensure that everyone who wishes to travel is able to do so. BW is therefore forced to provide unsubsidized seats if these are unfilled. As this is a social route where profit considerations cannot be applied, and as T&T is less willing to subsidize BW, there must be revisions to this. This route should operate as its own profit center, allowing subsidies to be directed to the TAB airbridge, and not to BWs international operations.

I believe that in 2019 the bulk of the operating losses were on the TAB route with the international routes (aside from those based out of Jamaica) being at least break even. Even though BW is state owned its goal is to operate as a financial self sufficient entity.


So the TAB route is completely wrongly managed by providing subsidies for passengers carried and not seats provided. I agree with you that this route should be managed as its own profit center and not let all their other routes feeling the pain of the loss making TAB air bridge.


A388


While everyone here has been rational in the components suggesting that the subsidies should be on the ferries and not on the "luxury" flights there is a political reality. Elections in Trinidad are close affairs and on more than one occasional its the 2 TAB seats which determined the victor. No sitting gov't will want to be the only telling Tobagonians that the fare jumped from US60 to US$100. The opposition will definitely capitalize on this. I don't know if the Family Islands have this level of political clout within The Bahamas.
 
BW600
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Re: Caribbean Aviation - 2023

Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:46 am

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