evank516 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

evank516 wrote:

Clearly DTW is the problem if DL is dropping the route, if they are actually dropping the route. BTV is largely an East Coast destination, and while capacity cuts have been made I'd say the majority of the fly in O&D can be accommodated through LGA and ATL. Delicate balance of allocating assets and matching demand. The route continues through the end of the year anyway and stops in January (if it actually does stop), the dead of winter in the Northeast and in the Midwest. You really think DTW is necessary in the dead of winter? I don't.

"Clearly DTW is the problem if DL is dropping the route" .....not really.

.....BTV-ATL is also operating at 40% of its 2019 capacity.... so by your logic you are saying BTV-ATL & BTV-DTW - 2 routes that have been operating for decades, connecting BTV to two of DL's most profitable hubs, must be substantially underperforming BTV-LGA/JFK which now magically has 2-3x its pre-COVID capacity despite being one of the worst performing markets of the past 3 years? .....I highly highly doubt it.

Your assumption is built on a false premise that airlines only keep/add "successful" routes, and ignores the recent NYC dynamics.

We know for a fact that much of the current short-haul NYC area flying is unprofitable (e.g., look at the LFs on some of the short-haul LGA/JFK flying), it's not a secret by any means, but DL and others are forced to operate these routes to meet slot obligations.

The only way they can meet these slot obligations, with as little impact to the bottom line as possible, is to operate additional short/ultra short-haul flying through LGA/JFK. Whether it is ITH, SCE, PVD, or other Northeast airports, DL has had to divert traffic or outright cancel flights from previously served routes to prop up its NYC operation.

Again.... if BTV-LGA was truly performing well, why was it one of the first routes DL decided to trim in half, once the slot use requirements were eased?

Fine, but why do they need DTW-BTV if LGA-BTV and ATL-BTV can manage the capacity? The answer is they don't. Again, BTV is a largely regional market, mostly seeing visitors from the east coast. Why waste a valuable RJ asset during a staffing crisis on DTW-BTV when they can backfill that RJ somewhere to keep a station open?

And it's funny, you're contradicting your own argument about upgauging NYC-Midwest flights by saying airlines don't keep/add successful routes. Airlines also fly larger planes on routes where it's not successful if competition warrants (cough cough BOS-MCI). Either way, you're very Midwest biased in most of your commentary. BTV doesn't need DTW to work. They can manage with LGA and ATL and funnel any connections through the two hubs. Also, BTV-ATL is still somewhat of a new thing. Sure they had more capacity prior to the pandemic, but the reality is that route wasn't even year round and it was exclusively served from NYC for quite some time. Referring back to initial post I quoted, his observation was that DL used DTW to serve cities in the northeast where they wouldn't do well funneling pax from NYC and ATL. BTV can easily be served with that. DTW is the excess fat. They trimmed it.

And it's funny, you're contradicting your own argument about upgauging NYC-Midwest flights by saying airlines don't keep/add successful routes.

Also, BTV-ATL is still somewhat of a new thing. Sure they had more capacity prior to the pandemic, but the reality is that route wasn't even year round and it was exclusively served from NYC for quite some time.

MIflyer12 wrote:

There's been a lot of angst shed on BTV-DTW without a lot of data.

What are the DL destinations DTW-XXX not served BTV-LGA/JFK/ATL-XXX?

What are the PDEWs for those BTV-XXX?

BTV gets good service for an airport its size. It sees multiple carriers to 10+ hubs. It's not the in top 100 for domestic passengers, not even 2K departing passengers a day for the 12 months ending 2/23 according to RITA BTS. I have to question what resources some people expect DL to pour into it.

Get me cranky and I'll go looking for Fort Wayne and Cedar Rapids data.

If this is rooted in a 'DTW gets no DL love' complaint, count seats, not departures, out of DTW and recognize the lovely (if medically tragic) natural experiment Covid-19 gave all the auto and auto supplier CFOs when travel spending was cut to nothing and work still got done. CFOs will be loath to restore travel budgets.

N292UX wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

MSP and DTW still seem to be underutilized considering their large footprint. At its heyday MEM was always a little over 200 fights. Seat wise I’m wondering if it’s relative close pre covid? Still it seems like both have room to grow to at least 400 flights a day (similar to what UA runs at ORD/DEN/IAH/EWR) considering they are the #2 and #3 largest hubs behind ATL. Would be nice to see some of the wealth spread around.

I was just driving through the MSP area this weekend and can remember when I would see the skies filled with plane after plane with taking off or in landing patterns and I only saw a few, so I must have been through at a time when hub operations were in a valley so to speak.

DL is currently serving more destinations out of MSP than they did before the pandemic - over 130 at the moment and IIRC the total is 132.

The total number of flights isn't what it was in pre-2019 but the average number of total seats on departing flights is up significantly from 2019.

Midwestindy wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

There's been a lot of angst shed on BTV-DTW without a lot of data.

What are the DL destinations DTW-XXX not served BTV-LGA/JFK/ATL-XXX?

What are the PDEWs for those BTV-XXX?

BTV gets good service for an airport its size. It sees multiple carriers to 10+ hubs. It's not the in top 100 for domestic passengers, not even 2K departing passengers a day for the 12 months ending 2/23 according to RITA BTS. I have to question what resources some people expect DL to pour into it.

Get me cranky and I'll go looking for Fort Wayne and Cedar Rapids data.

If this is rooted in a 'DTW gets no DL love' complaint, count seats, not departures, out of DTW and recognize the lovely (if medically tragic) natural experiment Covid-19 gave all the auto and auto supplier CFOs when travel spending was cut to nothing and work still got done. CFOs will be loath to restore travel budgets.

I have no dog in the fight, I couldn't care less about BTV or DTW, but don't like incorrect info being spread on the forum....

1) Using q3 2022 data (sorry not gonna look at every single quarter), out of BTV-ATL-XYZ, BTV-DTW-XYZ, BTV-LGA-XYZ routings, BTV-DTW-XYZ was the highest yielding of the 3. Some of the yields on LGA routings were pretty awful (e.g., DL's BTV-LGA-DCA routings averaged $140 )

2) Using q3 again, LF data shows that out of BTV-ATL-83%, BTV-DTW-84%, BTV-LGA-73%, BTV-DTW was also the highest Load factor and way ahead of LGA.

3) Out of ATL, DTW, and LGA, LGA is also the highest cost airport. Again, (along with ATC congestion) making it an inefficient place to connect passengers.

https://www.skyharbor.com/media/rlvhb5x ... arison.pdf

So TL:DR, BTV-DTW isn't a bad performer. DL needs to divert BTV (and other Northeast/midatlantic) traffic through NYC

Midwestindy wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

There's been a lot of angst shed on BTV-DTW without a lot of data.

What are the DL destinations DTW-XXX not served BTV-LGA/JFK/ATL-XXX?

What are the PDEWs for those BTV-XXX?

BTV gets good service for an airport its size. It sees multiple carriers to 10+ hubs. It's not the in top 100 for domestic passengers, not even 2K departing passengers a day for the 12 months ending 2/23 according to RITA BTS. I have to question what resources some people expect DL to pour into it.

Get me cranky and I'll go looking for Fort Wayne and Cedar Rapids data.

If this is rooted in a 'DTW gets no DL love' complaint, count seats, not departures, out of DTW and recognize the lovely (if medically tragic) natural experiment Covid-19 gave all the auto and auto supplier CFOs when travel spending was cut to nothing and work still got done. CFOs will be loath to restore travel budgets.

I have no dog in the fight, I couldn't care less about BTV or DTW, but don't like incorrect info being spread on the forum....

1) Using q3 2022 data (sorry not gonna look at every single quarter), out of BTV-ATL-XYZ, BTV-DTW-XYZ, BTV-LGA-XYZ routings, BTV-DTW-XYZ was the highest yielding of the 3. Some of the yields on LGA routings were pretty awful (e.g., DL's BTV-LGA-DCA routings averaged $140 )

2) Using q3 again, LF data shows that out of BTV-ATL-83%, BTV-DTW-84%, BTV-LGA-73%, BTV-DTW was also the highest Load factor and way ahead of LGA.

3) Out of ATL, DTW, and LGA, LGA is also the highest cost airport. Again, (along with ATC congestion) making it an inefficient place to connect passengers.

https://www.skyharbor.com/media/rlvhb5x ... arison.pdf

So TL:DR, BTV-DTW isn't a bad performer. DL needs to divert BTV (and other Northeast/midatlantic) traffic through NYC

AC4500 wrote:

BOS costs more per passenger than LAX/SFO/NYC...?

Midwestindy wrote:

evank516 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

"Clearly DTW is the problem if DL is dropping the route" .....not really.

.....BTV-ATL is also operating at 40% of its 2019 capacity.... so by your logic you are saying BTV-ATL & BTV-DTW - 2 routes that have been operating for decades, connecting BTV to two of DL's most profitable hubs, must be substantially underperforming BTV-LGA/JFK which now magically has 2-3x its pre-COVID capacity despite being one of the worst performing markets of the past 3 years? .....I highly highly doubt it.

Your assumption is built on a false premise that airlines only keep/add "successful" routes, and ignores the recent NYC dynamics.

We know for a fact that much of the current short-haul NYC area flying is unprofitable (e.g., look at the LFs on some of the short-haul LGA/JFK flying), it's not a secret by any means, but DL and others are forced to operate these routes to meet slot obligations.

The only way they can meet these slot obligations, with as little impact to the bottom line as possible, is to operate additional short/ultra short-haul flying through LGA/JFK. Whether it is ITH, SCE, PVD, or other Northeast airports, DL has had to divert traffic or outright cancel flights from previously served routes to prop up its NYC operation.

Again.... if BTV-LGA was truly performing well, why was it one of the first routes DL decided to trim in half, once the slot use requirements were eased?

Fine, but why do they need DTW-BTV if LGA-BTV and ATL-BTV can manage the capacity? The answer is they don't. Again, BTV is a largely regional market, mostly seeing visitors from the east coast. Why waste a valuable RJ asset during a staffing crisis on DTW-BTV when they can backfill that RJ somewhere to keep a station open?

And it's funny, you're contradicting your own argument about upgauging NYC-Midwest flights by saying airlines don't keep/add successful routes. Airlines also fly larger planes on routes where it's not successful if competition warrants (cough cough BOS-MCI). Either way, you're very Midwest biased in most of your commentary. BTV doesn't need DTW to work. They can manage with LGA and ATL and funnel any connections through the two hubs. Also, BTV-ATL is still somewhat of a new thing. Sure they had more capacity prior to the pandemic, but the reality is that route wasn't even year round and it was exclusively served from NYC for quite some time. Referring back to initial post I quoted, his observation was that DL used DTW to serve cities in the northeast where they wouldn't do well funneling pax from NYC and ATL. BTV can easily be served with that. DTW is the excess fat. They trimmed it.

Wait what? Now I'm biased because I called you out on an incorrect statement?

And it's funny, you're contradicting your own argument about upgauging NYC-Midwest flights by saying airlines don't keep/add successful routes.

Not sure what you are referring to, or how your BOS-MCI example 1) disproves anything I have said 2) is relevant

Also, BTV-ATL is still somewhat of a new thing. Sure they had more capacity prior to the pandemic, but the reality is that route wasn't even year round and it was exclusively served from NYC for quite some time.

BTV-ATL is not a new thing, DL has been serving BTV-ATL for 2 decades, after a brief hiatus during the recession.
https://vtdigger.org/2013/06/07/delta-c ... l-airport/

evank516 wrote:

So no, BTV-ATL has NOT been served that long. They didn't even fly to CVG. It is a relatively new route.

Midwestindy wrote:

3) Out of ATL, DTW, and LGA, LGA is also the highest cost airport. Again, (along with ATC congestion) making it an inefficient place to connect passengers.

https://www.skyharbor.com/media/rlvhb5x ... arison.pdf

B595 wrote:

evank516 wrote:

So no, BTV-ATL has NOT been served that long. They didn't even fly to CVG. It is a relatively new route.

It’s beside the point, but DL did fly BTV-CVG for a number of years on Comair CRJs. I flew it once or twice myself. This was well prior to BTV-ATL.

LAXintl wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

3) Out of ATL, DTW, and LGA, LGA is also the highest cost airport. Again, (along with ATC congestion) making it an inefficient place to connect passengers.

https://www.skyharbor.com/media/rlvhb5x ... arison.pdf

Just for reference, I would be cautious about using older CPE data as Covid lockdown with subsequent traffic shifts along with a host of airport projects that need to be funded still around the country have done wonky things to the numbers.

What was cheap once can be expensive now, and wise versa. There are airports out there where CPE grew as much as 4X during Covid, and have yet to normalize, while others have seen only moderate changes.

MIflyer12 wrote:

AC4500 wrote:

BOS costs more per passenger than LAX/SFO/NYC...?

It's airport FY 2021 data. All of the highest cost airports typically see a good fraction of international passengers. Intl travel was way down from 2019 levels in CY 2021.

DeltaMD95 wrote:

Piggybacking on all the DL Italy discussion, I’m presently vacationing in Sicilia and it seems to be a little known fact that Taormina is booming. Lots of Northern European & Italian tourists there. Cefalù, Castellammare del Golfo, and Ragusa are also thriving tourist gems that have new development/construction growth underway.

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:

DeltaMD95 wrote:

Piggybacking on all the DL Italy discussion, I’m presently vacationing in Sicilia and it seems to be a little known fact that Taormina is booming. Lots of Northern European & Italian tourists there. Cefalù, Castellammare del Golfo, and Ragusa are also thriving tourist gems that have new development/construction growth underway.

The HBO series White Lotus' most recent season was set in Sicily and will put a lot of American travelers there over the next couple of summers.

Wingtips56 wrote:

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:

DeltaMD95 wrote:

Piggybacking on all the DL Italy discussion, I’m presently vacationing in Sicilia and it seems to be a little known fact that Taormina is booming. Lots of Northern European & Italian tourists there. Cefalù, Castellammare del Golfo, and Ragusa are also thriving tourist gems that have new development/construction growth underway.

The HBO series White Lotus' most recent season was set in Sicily and will put a lot of American travelers there over the next couple of summers.

....in Taormina. Nice town Roman ampitheater in reasonably good shape. By the time we finished lunch, there was grit from Mt. Etna accumulated on the table.

dtwpilot225 wrote:

Since dtw is the hot topic
October 28
The 359 ams flight goes to a 330
And surprisingly dtw-hnd goes from 359 to 339
Nice to see the 339 in dtw

rjbesikof wrote:

How many DL LAX routes were added post-COVID or have had their capacity increased from pre to post-virus? AKL, PPT, LHR, MIA, DAL, EGE, IAH, and the extra 3x weekly SYD come to mind. Any others?

goboeing wrote:

Any idea how the A330-900 does in the 12-14 hour range compared to the 350 and compared to the 330-200?

I know the 330-200 did just fine on DTW-NGO for many years but just wondered if the 330-900 range is similar or better. I'm assuming the typical winter winds are such that the 330-300 probably couldn't do it, since it has never been scheduled to do DTW-Japan.

Carrera125 wrote:

rjbesikof wrote:

How many DL LAX routes were added post-COVID or have had their capacity increased from pre to post-virus? AKL, PPT, LHR, MIA, DAL, EGE, IAH, and the extra 3x weekly SYD come to mind. Any others?

Don't forget CDG

airportgeek wrote:

goboeing wrote:

Any idea how the A330-900 does in the 12-14 hour range compared to the 350 and compared to the 330-200?

I know the 330-200 did just fine on DTW-NGO for many years but just wondered if the 330-900 range is similar or better. I'm assuming the typical winter winds are such that the 330-300 probably couldn't do it, since it has never been scheduled to do DTW-Japan.

If you go by range estimates from the ACAP, with just pax and bags, the A330-300 has about 6300 nm range, both the A330-200 and A330-900 have around 7200 nm, and the A350-900 is 8000 nm. With 10 additional tons of payload, that shifts to 5400 nm for the A330-300, 6100 nm for the A330-200 and A330-900, and 7100 nm for the A350-900. Obviously these numbers are highly idealized, and don't account for the winter jetstream when heading westbound. The A330-300 might just be able to make DTW-Japan, but definitely only with pax and bags. But the gist is that the A330-900 is about as capable as the A330-200 range-wise, and could do DTW-Japan with a solid amount of cargo too.

goboeing wrote:

I wonder what advantage the 330-900 has over the 350 that's been on the route since the 747-400 left it.

I guess slightly less seats, maybe that's what they're after for the winter schedule.

MIflyer12 wrote:

goboeing wrote:

I wonder what advantage the 330-900 has over the 350 that's been on the route since the 747-400 left it.

I guess slightly less seats, maybe that's what they're after for the winter schedule.

I wouldn't ponder it too hard on a route basis unless you're willing to get into full A350 utilization mapping for the season.

rjbesikof wrote:

How many DL LAX routes were added post-COVID or have had their capacity increased from pre to post-virus? AKL, PPT, LHR, MIA, DAL, EGE, IAH, and the extra 3x weekly SYD come to mind. Any others?

AdEd wrote:

Anything noteworthy from this weekend’s schedule update?

crazyjaydawg wrote:

rjbesikof wrote:

How many DL LAX routes were added post-COVID or have had their capacity increased from pre to post-virus? AKL, PPT, LHR, MIA, DAL, EGE, IAH, and the extra 3x weekly SYD come to mind. Any others?

Was MCO a post-COVID add?

dalmit wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

goboeing wrote:

I wonder what advantage the 330-900 has over the 350 that's been on the route since the 747-400 left it.

I guess slightly less seats, maybe that's what they're after for the winter schedule.

I wouldn't ponder it too hard on a route basis unless you're willing to get into full A350 utilization mapping for the season.

I'm wondering if they are freeing up A350 frames so they can start the cabin mods. https://aircraft.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2023-01-delta-air-lines-selects-airbus-services-for-a350-cabin-retrofit

tlecam wrote:

AdEd wrote:

LAXPolaris wrote:

Wow 3x daily JFK-FCO, that’s impressive! Wonder how much of that is traffic going to Rome vs connecting onwards with ITA? Will be interesting to see if DL downsizes at FCO at all if/when ITA joins Star Alliance. I honestly think they’ll be able to keep all if not almost all of their capacity there at least during the summer, Italy is such a hot market.

I believe most intra-Europe connecting traffic are handled by AF and KL, so I'd expect FCO traffic to be largely O/D. The 3rd daily JFK-FCO is new this year; it operated 2x daily for most of last summer and for a few weeks last Dec. DL also flies 2 daily ATL-FCO, daily BOS-FCO (recently converted from seasonal to year-round), and from June 5 daily DTW-FCO for the first time.

DL also has quite the operation at VCE and MXP this summer being the largest US airline in both airports – twice daily JFK-MXP, daily ATL-MXP (recently converted from seasonal to year-round), and daily each of JFK/ATL-VCE.

I would no be surprised if BOS-MXP is a summer seasonal flight at some point.

I think DL is right about growing MXP with this TATL travel boom. I frequently visit Firenze and Tuscany and am starting to look at more time in Bologna / Emilia Romagna. MXP serves those areas just as easily as FCO/Roma. It’s also a better gateway to the Italian and French Rivieras as well as Lake Como and surrounding area.

Carrera125 wrote:

miaskies wrote:

rjbesikof wrote:

With ITA now in the hands of LH, will DL downsize/no longer prioritize growth in FCO/VCE/MXP/Italy?

why would they do that? as is, DL does not really use ITA for onward connections for U.S. passengers for EU/Africa/Mid East connections that's what AFKL are for. CDG and AMS are THE SkyTeam hubs for that. DL has grown the Italian market very healthy on it's own. Even during the Alitalia days they too were not used for connections for the most part for U.S. passengers. Part of DL's strategy was to get a strong foot print in Italy and they are doing so. We may see some tweaks to the schedules but I wouldn't expect massive cuts with the exception of say DTW-FCO or making BOS-FCO seasonal again. They knew the writing was in the wall for ITA. All eyes from ATL are on AFKL and sealing the deal for the LIS hub via TAP.

They are trying to steal TAP from star alliance?

Carrera125 wrote:

For those interested, 2 more gates will open sometime this month or early next month at T2 LAX. 21a and 21b. Don't know what aircrafts they can accommodate though.

LAXPolaris wrote:

Was there any announcement on why LAX-AKL is no longer on the schedule after March 28? Assuming they just decided to make it seasonal but has that been confirmed?

rsgolfpunk wrote:

:D 737s are conspicuously missing from LGA. Just an observation. Plenty of Airbuseseses.

rsgolfpunk wrote:

:D 737s are conspicuously missing from LGA. Just an observation. Plenty of Airbuseseses.

TonyClifton wrote:

rsgolfpunk wrote:

:D 737s are conspicuously missing from LGA. Just an observation. Plenty of Airbuseseses.

Ever land a 737 at LGA? Airbus has a good few knots less on its approach speed, less of a missile.

MIflyer12 wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

rsgolfpunk wrote:

:D 737s are conspicuously missing from LGA. Just an observation. Plenty of Airbuseseses.

Ever land a 737 at LGA? Airbus has a good few knots less on its approach speed, less of a missile.

With perimeter rules (Saturdays excepted) there's no need for 737 range. The shorter-legged A320s and 321ceos are fine. There aren't that many 321neos in the fleet yet.

MIflyer12 wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

rsgolfpunk wrote:

:D 737s are conspicuously missing from LGA. Just an observation. Plenty of Airbuseseses.

Ever land a 737 at LGA? Airbus has a good few knots less on its approach speed, less of a missile.

With perimeter rules (Saturdays excepted) there's no need for 737 range. The shorter-legged A320s and 321ceos are fine. There aren't that many 321neos in the fleet yet.

TonyClifton wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

TonyClifton wrote:

Ever land a 737 at LGA? Airbus has a good few knots less on its approach speed, less of a missile.

With perimeter rules (Saturdays excepted) there's no need for 737 range. The shorter-legged A320s and 321ceos are fine. There aren't that many 321neos in the fleet yet.

You’re also probably getting a better payload out of LGA on the Bus. In the summer on the 738 it’s tight, beyond perimeter stuff is heavily optimized, and with the climb out restrictions you can’t do much in the way of throwing down more flaps. Neo could change it a bit.

rsgolfpunk wrote:

:D 737s are conspicuously missing from LGA. Just an observation. Plenty of Airbuseseses.

lesfalls wrote:

tlecam wrote:

AdEd wrote:

I believe most intra-Europe connecting traffic are handled by AF and KL, so I'd expect FCO traffic to be largely O/D. The 3rd daily JFK-FCO is new this year; it operated 2x daily for most of last summer and for a few weeks last Dec. DL also flies 2 daily ATL-FCO, daily BOS-FCO (recently converted from seasonal to year-round), and from June 5 daily DTW-FCO for the first time.

DL also has quite the operation at VCE and MXP this summer being the largest US airline in both airports – twice daily JFK-MXP, daily ATL-MXP (recently converted from seasonal to year-round), and daily each of JFK/ATL-VCE.

I would no be surprised if BOS-MXP is a summer seasonal flight at some point.

I think DL is right about growing MXP with this TATL travel boom. I frequently visit Firenze and Tuscany and am starting to look at more time in Bologna / Emilia Romagna. MXP serves those areas just as easily as FCO/Roma. It’s also a better gateway to the Italian and French Rivieras as well as Lake Como and surrounding area.

Speaking of the French Rivera I’ve heard that ATL-NCE hasn’t been doing so well loads wise.

Anyone have any update on how it’s doing?

KMCOFlyer wrote:

Carrera125 wrote:

For those interested, 2 more gates will open sometime this month or early next month at T2 LAX. 21a and 21b. Don't know what aircrafts they can accommodate though.

Interesting does this mean the T1-T2 post security connector will re-open as well as the walkway is located just beyond the closed off Gate 21.