PM wrote:

Boeing say they delivered two -8s to American in December. Does anyone know which MSNs?

Avatar2go wrote:

.........As far as man-hours, I haven't seen that quote in the earnings call transcripts.......

For that inventory, Dave already mentioned the 737 that inventory carries about on average as many hours with it to prepare the airplane as it did to build and on the 787, it's actually greater than the assembly hours.

WestWing wrote:

PM wrote:

Boeing say they delivered two -8s to American in December. Does anyone know which MSNs?

LN 1055 MSN 65995 N875BD
LN 1137 MSN 66004 N884AA

PM wrote:

MSN 1137 for sure but All Things 787 says that 1055 was delivered on 11/11/22.

WestWing wrote:

PM wrote:

MSN 1137 for sure but All Things 787 says that 1055 was delivered on 11/11/22.

Planespotters says December for 1055. I do not know which is more accurate, but perhaps you can look at Planespotters too.

One of the confusing things of matching AA 787 deliveries to month is the following pattern. A new delivery flies PAE to VCV with an AA flight number. At VCV there is installation of the Ku/Ka SATCOM and maybe some other things which takes two to three weeks, and then the aircraft flies VCV to DFW. Boeing record the delivery to AA in the month of the VCV to DFW flight rather than the month of the PAE to VCV flight even though the PAE to VCV flight is an AA flight number. Maybe - pure speculation on my part - it has something to do with the fact that these airframes for AA were on the books as being ordered by Boeing Capital with intent to lease to AA. The FAA registry is updated to show that Boeing is no longer the owner a day or so before the VCV to DFW flight.

PM wrote:

13/09/22 American Airlines 1099
24/09/22 American Airlines 1045
26/09/22 American Airlines 1061
03/10/22 American Airlines 1087
25/10/22 American Airlines 1103
08/11/22 American Airlines 1075
11/11/22 American Airlines 1055
12/12/22 American Airlines 1137

WestWing wrote:

PM wrote:

13/09/22 American Airlines 1099
24/09/22 American Airlines 1045
26/09/22 American Airlines 1061
03/10/22 American Airlines 1087
25/10/22 American Airlines 1103
08/11/22 American Airlines 1075
11/11/22 American Airlines 1055
12/12/22 American Airlines 1137

I think your list is missing LN 1071 N877BF which flew PAE to VCV around September 24, and VCV to DFW sometime in October

WestWing wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

.........As far as man-hours, I haven't seen that quote in the earnings call transcripts.......

Thanks for the rest of your response. In the investor conference transcript on page 15 it says the following:

For that inventory, Dave already mentioned the 737 that inventory carries about on average as many hours with it to prepare the airplane as it did to build and on the 787, it's actually greater than the assembly hours.

WestWing wrote:

PM wrote:

on the 787, it's actually greater than the assembly hours.

HB-IWC wrote:

It seems QR is about to take delivery of LN1031 A7-BHI. Meanwhile LN1093 A7-BHN was flown out of storage VCV PAE.

TK773ER wrote:

With deliveries I can see about 35-45 reworked and about 15 new builds for a total of 60 deliverys this year and who knows what 2024 is to be just my 2 cents.

TK773ER wrote:

Having a look at current production list not sure after LN 1166 which Airlines are allocated, apart from AA it's hard to tell which Airlines will actually be taking delivery of factory fresh built.

On the one hand new builds are going to be stored cos some Airlines don't need them or have cancelled/deffered delivery , With deliveries I can see about 35-45 reworked and about 15 new builds for a total of 60 deliverys this year and who knows what 2024 is to be just my 2 cents.

edealinfo wrote:

WestWing wrote:

PM wrote:

on the 787, it's actually greater than the assembly hours.

HB-IWC wrote:

It seems QR is about to take delivery of LN1031 A7-BHI. Meanwhile LN1093 A7-BHN was flown out of storage VCV PAE.

TK773ER wrote:

With deliveries I can see about 35-45 reworked and about 15 new builds for a total of 60 deliverys this year and who knows what 2024 is to be just my 2 cents.

Do you know if VT-TSH, VT-TSN or VT-TSO was taken out of storage for rework? It is likely 1 of the 3. It was seen in Paine Field recently.

RobK wrote:

There are no Vistara's at PAE (last one is the D-ABPB which is maybe not repainted yet). TSH and TSN are at VCV, TSO is at SKF. All are in deep storage and not going anywhere, maybe even ntu and going to new customers.

edealinfo wrote:

RobK wrote:

There are no Vistara's at PAE (last one is the D-ABPB which is maybe not repainted yet). TSH and TSN are at VCV, TSO is at SKF. All are in deep storage and not going anywhere, maybe even ntu and going to new customers.

Firstly, thank you for you response. Please see the video in the attached link. In the background you can see the Vistara aircraft. It has a purple tail with a geometric design. Can you identify the airport the plane is at? Is it Plaine Field, Washington State OR Charleston, North Carolina? If the latter, it could be the 787 that's fresh off the factory production line (i.e., not one of the 3 that was in deep storage). However, if the airport is in Washington State, then it is a mystery, unless a) the one in Charleston was sent to Plainesfield or b) it is 1 of the 3 stored 787s requiring "rework", or c) a former Hainan Airlines aircraft that was never delivered -- then repainted in Vistara colors -- but which Vistara refused to take on, and will likely be repainted and sent to Lufthansa?

https://twitter.com/TheFlyingEnggnr/sta ... 2507643904

jbs2886 wrote:

That’s Paine.

AAPilot48Heavy wrote:

TK773ER wrote:

Having a look at current production list not sure after LN 1166 which Airlines are allocated, apart from AA it's hard to tell which Airlines will actually be taking delivery of factory fresh built.

On the one hand new builds are going to be stored cos some Airlines don't need them or have cancelled/deffered delivery , With deliveries I can see about 35-45 reworked and about 15 new builds for a total of 60 deliverys this year and who knows what 2024 is to be just my 2 cents.

What is ‘cos’?

Do you mean ‘because’? Colorado Springs, CO? Or am I missing something?

Scoreboard wrote:

AAPilot48Heavy wrote:

TK773ER wrote:

Having a look at current production list not sure after LN 1166 which Airlines are allocated, apart from AA it's hard to tell which Airlines will actually be taking delivery of factory fresh built.

On the one hand new builds are going to be stored cos some Airlines don't need them or have cancelled/deffered delivery , With deliveries I can see about 35-45 reworked and about 15 new builds for a total of 60 deliverys this year and who knows what 2024 is to be just my 2 cents.

What is ‘cos’?

Do you mean ‘because’? Colorado Springs, CO? Or am I missing something?

"cos" is possibly just slang English for "because"

JerseyFlyer wrote:

Scoreboard wrote:

AAPilot48Heavy wrote:

What is ‘cos’?

Do you mean ‘because’? Colorado Springs, CO? Or am I missing something?

"cos" is possibly just slang English for "because"

We should all take care to avoid slang, idioms and abbreviations that may not be understood by the many people on this site who are not native English speakers

edealinfo wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

That’s Paine.

Hmm, wonder is that's D-ABPB (ex-Hainan) that's currently in Vistara's colors, awaiting repainting to Lufthansa colors.
https://twitter.com/TheFlyingEnggnr/sta ... 2507643904

Avatar2go wrote:

TC957 wrote:

What exactly does a " rework " involve ? ( apologies if this has been explained before ).

Rework involves remediation of any of a number of issues found during the 787 quality control audit and subsequent voluntary delivery pause. The most substantial of which involve fuselage & other joins between major sections that did not meet manufacturing or assembly tolerances.

Those take some time because for the fuselage, the interior around the join must be removed for inspection, and in the worst case, the join separated, tolerances addressed, then realigned and reassembled properly.

Max Q wrote:

This is a really big deal, basically you’re talking about rebuilding part of the aircraft ‘not meeting tolerances’ doesn’t really do justice to the numerous manufacturing problems

RobK wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

That’s Paine.

Hmm, wonder is that's D-ABPB (ex-Hainan) that's currently in Vistara's colors, awaiting repainting to Lufthansa colors.
https://twitter.com/TheFlyingEnggnr/sta ... 2507643904

There is no wondering about it. It's the D-ABPB frame.

RobK wrote:

There is no wondering about it.

WestWing wrote:

Here is an attempt at enumerating the line numbers of undelivered frames < LN1127. ]

TK773ER wrote:

I am predicting 30 of the pre LN 1127 will get delivered this year

edealinfo wrote:

WestWing wrote:

Here is an attempt at enumerating the line numbers of undelivered frames < LN1127. ]

TK773ER wrote:

I am predicting 30 of the pre LN 1127 will get delivered this year

Boeing has said most pre LN 1127 will be delivered by 2024.
So, of pre < LN 1127, 93 stored 787s, you are estimating only 30 (i.e., less than a third) will be delivered? That seems low.
In your estimate, will LN 1027, LN 1049, and LN 1107 be delivered in 2023?

Avatar2go wrote:

Max Q wrote:

This is a really big deal, basically you’re talking about rebuilding part of the aircraft ‘not meeting tolerances’ doesn’t really do justice to the numerous manufacturing problems

Agreed that the remediation is a big deal, as it requires dismantling and reassembling the aircraft. But the root cause was described accurately, it was manufacturing and assembly tolerances, along with other quality control issues.

In the case of the fuselage joins, they are remediating gaps on the order of 10 thousands of an inch or less. But it doesn't matter how small they are, they are still outside the manufacturing spec, and in some cases the certification spec, so they have to be fixed.

Also as noted in previous posts, the loss of quality control ocurred across the supply chain, as well as within Boeing itself. It's been a long road to address all those individual issues. A lesson in the importance of achieving & maintaining quality.

edealinfo wrote:

RobK wrote:

There is no wondering about it.

1. Each time an aircraft is pulled out of storage, is that reported on this thread?

2. Does Boeing or anyone else on this thread indicate or know of the schedule for the next 3 months, for which aircraft which will be pulled out of storage?

Thanks!

kanban wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

Max Q wrote:

This is a really big deal, basically you’re talking about rebuilding part of the aircraft ‘not meeting tolerances’ doesn’t really do justice to the numerous manufacturing problems

Agreed that the remediation is a big deal, as it requires dismantling and reassembling the aircraft. But the root cause was described accurately, it was manufacturing and assembly tolerances, along with other quality control issues.

In the case of the fuselage joins, they are remediating gaps on the order of 10 thousands of an inch or less. But it doesn't matter how small they are, they are still outside the manufacturing spec, and in some cases the certification spec, so they have to be fixed.

Also as noted in previous posts, the loss of quality control ocurred across the supply chain, as well as within Boeing itself. It's been a long road to address all those individual issues. A lesson in the importance of achieving & maintaining quality.

Please put some of the blame where it belongs - ENGINEERING - for designing beyond manufacturing capabilities. Some newbies never realized the need for manufacturing tolerances greater than 0.00001 which even the vaunted robotics could not support.

RobK wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

RobK wrote:

There is no wondering about it.

1. Each time an aircraft is pulled out of storage, is that reported on this thread?

2. Does Boeing or anyone else on this thread indicate or know of the schedule for the next 3 months, for which aircraft which will be pulled out of storage?

Thanks!

VT-TSO is just landing at PAE as I write, ex SKF storage. No further info on plans for it.

Jan. 19, 2023, © Leeham News: Already well behind the 8 ball in delivering 787s, Boeing quietly advised some customers recently that they may see yet another delay—this one up to 15 months. Some customers expecting 787s in 2024 now expect them in 2025.

scbriml wrote:

Leeham this morning is reporting up to 15 month additional delay for delivery of 787s for some customers.

https://leehamnews.com/2023/01/19/hotr- ... ram-again/

Jan. 19, 2023, © Leeham News: Already well behind the 8 ball in delivering 787s, Boeing quietly advised some customers recently that they may see yet another delay—this one up to 15 months. Some customers expecting 787s in 2024 now expect them in 2025.

The article doesn't go into any details to explain why the additional delay, but based on reports in this thread that the rework is very manpower intensive, it could just be the volume of work required to fix each 787. Either way, not good news for 787 customers.

HB-IWC wrote:

QR's A7-BHM (LN1081) was flown back from storage VCV PAE for rework.

edealinfo wrote:

Wow, so we know of at least 32 787s that were pulled from storage awaiting rework. How does Boeing work on all of them simultaneously? Wouldn't it be better for example to pull 10, then as each 1 gets delivered then bring out another from storage, and repeat?

Avatar2go wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

Wow, so we know of at least 32 787s that were pulled from storage awaiting rework. How does Boeing work on all of them simultaneously? Wouldn't it be better for example to pull 10, then as each 1 gets delivered then bring out another from storage, and repeat?

Boeing has set up one or more lines to handle rework. So would imagine the aircraft are either in various stages within the line, or are awaiting entrance to the line.

HB-IWC wrote:

Anyone knows when MIAT's B789 is due for delivery. It was out on a test flight CHS-CHS yesterday.

Avatar2go wrote:

Boeing has set up one or more lines to handle rework. So would imagine the aircraft are either in various stages within the line, or are awaiting entrance to the line.

Rhal97 wrote:

Yeah 747 line at Everett (40-22) has been turned to a rework centre. So there are currently 9 787s on the factory being reworked at Everett
Source: Matt Cawby

edealinfo wrote:

GENERAL QUESTION: How long does it take on average from beginning of "pre-flight prep" to delivery?

edealinfo wrote:

HB-IWC wrote:

Anyone knows when MIAT's B789 is due for delivery. It was out on a test flight CHS-CHS yesterday.

As you are aware, all aircraft after Line 1127, do not have to go through rework. MIAT is Ln #1128. Line #s 1129 to 1134 have already been delivered. So has Ln 1136 to 1138 and Ln 1141. I don't know how the ones with higher LN #s got delivered before MIAT - probably because they are more "powerful" airlines? Anyway, I am guessing MIAT's delivery could be any day now. Look out for "customer acceptance flight". That's a good sign that delivery will be within a few days of that.

HB-IWC wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

HB-IWC wrote:

Anyone knows when MIAT's B789 is due for delivery. It was out on a test flight CHS-CHS yesterday.

As you are aware, all aircraft after Line 1127, do not have to go through rework. MIAT is Ln #1128. Line #s 1129 to 1134 have already been delivered. So has Ln 1136 to 1138 and Ln 1141. I don't know how the ones with higher LN #s got delivered before MIAT - probably because they are more "powerful" airlines? Anyway, I am guessing MIAT's delivery could be any day now. Look out for "customer acceptance flight". That's a good sign that delivery will be within a few days of that.

I am very well aware of all of that. I was asking about expected delivery dates. Your reference to customer acceptance flight is not information that is widely available. I was asking whether someone in here has that information available.

Avatar2go wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

GENERAL QUESTION: How long does it take on average from beginning of "pre-flight prep" to delivery?

Answered up-thread with reference to excellent Guy Norris article that described the process in detail. Short version is that it varies, up to 5 months total from storage to delivery, of which 1 to 3 months constitute rework. Other components are things like restoration from storage, painting, acceptance testing, and delivery prep. The last stage can be 3 to 6 weeks, probably averaging about a month.

edealinfo wrote:

Thanks for this info although my inquiry on time from "pre-flight prep" to delivery, was for a Line numbers after 1027 that don't need any rework. I assuming from your response above that this too can take 3 to 6 weeks?