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IceCream
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:14 am

Acey wrote:
I think we had sufficient evidence earlier (from the CEO and TUS airport) that the TUS operation is subsidized, but there's no real reason to believe those routes are performing at some significant margin over what we know to be their other transborder load factors. Either way, it's not like the TUS operation will be what bankrupts Flair.

That’s true. But wow Flair does really bad on all of its trans border routes. I’m surprised they haven’t pulled the plug yet. I don’t know what they’re waiting for
 
Acey
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:35 am

IceCream wrote:
Acey wrote:
I think we had sufficient evidence earlier (from the CEO and TUS airport) that the TUS operation is subsidized, but there's no real reason to believe those routes are performing at some significant margin over what we know to be their other transborder load factors. Either way, it's not like the TUS operation will be what bankrupts Flair.

That’s true. But wow Flair does really bad on all of its trans border routes. I’m surprised they haven’t pulled the plug yet. I don’t know what they’re waiting for

Presumably for the subsidy to end or be reassessed, or for some stark realization that they have better usage of the frames elsewhere and they buy out the balance of whatever deal they have, assuming it's structured as such.
 
Juju2004
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:53 pm

As Lynx is starting the same routes Flair tried in 2021 from YYC, let's see if they can manage to get higher LF and revenue than Flair. Maybe it's the brand or it's just the buisness model that's not working for transborder.
 
YEGFlyer
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:48 pm

BML87 wrote:
YEGFlyer wrote:
Huh?

Flair has always been about serving where traditional carriers cannot or will not, so if Porter (semi legacy airline) wants to step in, F8 isn't going to make a big stink.

We like F8 because they actually serve interesting routes, and break the boring hub and spoke mold. It's not about screwing over other airlines.


Huh?

Let's look at Flair's current international flights from Edmonton:

Las Vegas (already served by WestJet)
Los Angeles (already served by WestJet)
Palm Springs (already served by WestJet)
Phoenix (already served by WestJet)
Puerto Vallarta (already served by WestJet)
San Francisco (already served by Air Canada)
San Jose del Cabo (already served by WestJet)
Tucson

Look at their market stance. If you cannot see how it's different from others I'm not going to be able to explain it to you
 
YEGFlyer
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:51 pm

IceCream wrote:
Acey wrote:
I think we had sufficient evidence earlier (from the CEO and TUS airport) that the TUS operation is subsidized, but there's no real reason to believe those routes are performing at some significant margin over what we know to be their other transborder load factors. Either way, it's not like the TUS operation will be what bankrupts Flair.

That’s true. But wow Flair does really bad on all of its trans border routes. I’m surprised they haven’t pulled the plug yet. I don’t know what they’re waiting for


They cannot abandon USA now, this is 3rd attempt. They have to build their presence. They seem to know they have to stick it out this time around.
 
AWNP
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:11 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Competition is good for consumers, whether it be on underserved or well-served but high fare routes. Some people make it seem like competing with AC or WS is immoral. If F8 makes money, great. If not, it’s owners can choose to pump in more capital or let it fail.


Not so much immoral, but irrational. The population of Canada cannot support it. US carriers are making money and have long term stability, the same cannot be said in Canads.
 
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Aresxerexade
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:07 pm

AWNP wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Competition is good for consumers, whether it be on underserved or well-served but high fare routes. Some people make it seem like competing with AC or WS is immoral. If F8 makes money, great. If not, it’s owners can choose to pump in more capital or let it fail.


Not so much immoral, but irrational. The population of Canada cannot support it. US carriers are making money and have long term stability, the same cannot be said in Canads.


Very much so like what happened with Flyr . The founders believed there was room in the market for a new budget airline focused on Oslo, especially with both Norwegian and SAS facing financial difficulties. They have now declared bankruptcy and the airline ceased operations. The market could not sustain them all.
 
sxf24
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:46 pm

AWNP wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Competition is good for consumers, whether it be on underserved or well-served but high fare routes. Some people make it seem like competing with AC or WS is immoral. If F8 makes money, great. If not, it’s owners can choose to pump in more capital or let it fail.


Not so much immoral, but irrational. The population of Canada cannot support it. US carriers are making money and have long term stability, the same cannot be said in Canads.


Long term, the growth plans for ULCCs in Canada may be unsustainable. It is laughable to claim the current capacity can’t be supported and that Canadians should be content with high cost and mediocre service.
 
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Aresxerexade
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:49 pm

sxf24 wrote:
AWNP wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Competition is good for consumers, whether it be on underserved or well-served but high fare routes. Some people make it seem like competing with AC or WS is immoral. If F8 makes money, great. If not, it’s owners can choose to pump in more capital or let it fail.


Not so much immoral, but irrational. The population of Canada cannot support it. US carriers are making money and have long term stability, the same cannot be said in Canads.


Long term, the growth plans for ULCCs in Canada may be unsustainable. It is laughable to claim the current capacity can’t be supported and that Canadians should be content with high cost and mediocre service.


Not everything works the same everywhere and what makes me laugh is people think that it can.
 
sxf24
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:17 pm

Aresxerexade wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
AWNP wrote:

Not so much immoral, but irrational. The population of Canada cannot support it. US carriers are making money and have long term stability, the same cannot be said in Canads.


Long term, the growth plans for ULCCs in Canada may be unsustainable. It is laughable to claim the current capacity can’t be supported and that Canadians should be content with high cost and mediocre service.


Not everything works the same everywhere and what makes me laugh is people think that it can.


The hubris that Canada is so significantly different than every other developed market and can’t support some level of ULCC competition is astounding. Is Flair the best or right ULCC for Canada? I don’t know, but the continued attacks on a business model that has been proven to stimulate passenger traffic, lower fares and create more jobs is silly.
 
Jfermeee
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:24 pm

IceCream wrote:
Acey wrote:
I think we had sufficient evidence earlier (from the CEO and TUS airport) that the TUS operation is subsidized, but there's no real reason to believe those routes are performing at some significant margin over what we know to be their other transborder load factors. Either way, it's not like the TUS operation will be what bankrupts Flair.

That’s true. But wow Flair does really bad on all of its trans border routes. I’m surprised they haven’t pulled the plug yet. I don’t know what they’re waiting for


That's an overstatement, I think. The publicly available data is from Q3 2022, and this airline would have had its bookings impacted by the U.S. DOT action Canada DOT that was taken. Let's wait to see what Q4 2022 LF look like, by route.
Last edited by Jfermeee on Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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IceCream
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:25 pm

YEGFlyer wrote:
IceCream wrote:
Acey wrote:
I think we had sufficient evidence earlier (from the CEO and TUS airport) that the TUS operation is subsidized, but there's no real reason to believe those routes are performing at some significant margin over what we know to be their other transborder load factors. Either way, it's not like the TUS operation will be what bankrupts Flair.

That’s true. But wow Flair does really bad on all of its trans border routes. I’m surprised they haven’t pulled the plug yet. I don’t know what they’re waiting for


They cannot abandon USA now, this is 3rd attempt. They have to build their presence. They seem to know they have to stick it out this time around.

I suppose, but how long will they bleed money and wait for US flights to be successful? They seem to be seeing success domestically and to the US, so it’s better to focus on those markets no?
 
jimbo737
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:28 am

The big difference is the new entrants in the US rarely try to compete with long established network carriers on core routes.

WS got traction in the market, not to mention spectacular operating margins in its first 7-8 years by focusing on markets where they were the only n/s player, (YEG-YLW, YEG-YYJ, YEG-YWG, YYJ-YXS, YXX to anywhere etc ) and operating 737’s against Dash 8’s, Bae146’s and F28’s, and doing so with fully allocated stage length adjusted unit costs 40% below the incumbents.

WS didn’t even touch YYZ until 5 years into the program and were making $ hand over fist without it.

The new entrants are simply going after what they perceive as low hanging fruit, without the benefit of a nice, organic integrated network. They have very little imagination or strategic foresight.

Had they been furnished with the “10 Commandments” they might have done things differently.
 
sxf24
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:37 am

jimbo737 wrote:
The big difference is the new entrants in the US rarely try to compete with long established network carriers on core routes.

WS got traction in the market, not to mention spectacular operating margins in its first 7-8 years by focusing on markets where they were the only n/s player, (YEG-YLW, YEG-YYJ, YEG-YWG, YYJ-YXS, YXX to anywhere etc ) and operating 737’s against Dash 8’s, Bae146’s and F28’s, and doing so with fully allocated stage length adjusted unit costs 40% below the incumbents.

WS didn’t even touch YYZ until 5 years into the program and were making $ hand over fist without it.

The new entrants are simply going after what they perceive as low hanging fruit, without the benefit of a nice, organic integrated network. They have very little imagination or strategic foresight.

Had they been furnished with the “10 Commandments” they might have done things differently.


While Allegiant competes less with network airlines, the largest ULCCs - F9 and NK - have significant overlap. One reason? They fly where the traffic is!

You keep trying to redefine the argument.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:38 am

Heck, if Flair can make it work, great! The extreme low end is not being serviced and if Flair can do it profitably, even better. It does stimulate traffic and supports ancillary services.

The problem is that old guys like me have seen this cycle time and time again. Flair is not the first time to try it, by a long shot.

Also, time and time again, I have seen the effects of an airline shutting down. It’s not pretty. But …. I don’t fault the passenger. They bought the service for the agreed price. Since I started airline flying in 1986, I have seen dozens of Canadian airlines abruptly shut down.

I don’t see Acey or Jimbo737 as negative. Just realistic. I don’t know them, but I’m guessing they are around my age and have seen a lot over the past decades.
 
YEGFlyer
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:52 pm

IceCream wrote:
YEGFlyer wrote:
IceCream wrote:
That’s true. But wow Flair does really bad on all of its trans border routes. I’m surprised they haven’t pulled the plug yet. I don’t know what they’re waiting for


They cannot abandon USA now, this is 3rd attempt. They have to build their presence. They seem to know they have to stick it out this time around.

I suppose, but how long will they bleed money and wait for US flights to be successful? They seem to be seeing success domestically and to the US, so it’s better to focus on those markets no?

No, they need a market presence in transborder, it would be foolish to concede that entire market to others. As to how long, recent data shows LF is closer to 60% than 30% so it is already improving. Give it a year and it should normalize.
 
Juju2004
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:31 am

The vicious cycle of generating cash flow by selling more flights than you can operate and labelling it as "fast growth". Might work afterall or not, but better enjoy it while it lasts i guess.
 
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qf789
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:35 am

Could we please just discuss the topic and leave the flamebait and personal comments towards others out the discussion. Links must be provided if posting factual information. Lastly your posts must constructively contribute to the discussion
 
Acey
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:36 am

Worth posting again, and the current subject of discussion, are these publicly available transborder load factors published by the government of the United States:

https://data.transportation.gov/Aviatio ... /xgub-n9bw
https://data.transportation.gov/Aviatio ... /bpdu-tujd

YEGFlyer wrote:
As to how long, recent data shows LF is closer to 60% than 30% so it is already improving. Give it a year and it should normalize.


A casual observer might ask why Flair gets a multi-year leash for loads to normalize when others were operating at good LF for the duration of the same period. Also, Flair has had never had good transborder LF, so "normal" is where they're at right now unless the point of comparison is the average LF among the other airlines.
 
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IceCream
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:52 am

I think the plane sizes are really limiting them, if they had a smaller sized plane some of their new domestic routes would have even more potential.

I’m curious to see how much success they’re having on their major domestic routes. I believe there’s some space for a ULCC but since the US flights are doing so badly it must make more sense to build up domestic and then slowly enter that market later
 
YEGFlyer
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:33 am

IceCream wrote:
I think the plane sizes are really limiting them, if they had a smaller sized plane some of their new domestic routes would have even more potential.

I’m curious to see how much success they’re having on their major domestic routes. I believe there’s some space for a ULCC but since the US flights are doing so badly it must make more sense to build up domestic and then slowly enter that market later

I agree that transborder is relative peanuts in their overall ops. Clearly they are taking it slowly on transborder.
 
YEGFlyer
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:48 am

Acey wrote:
Worth posting again, and the current subject of discussion, are these publicly available transborder load factors published by the government of the United States:

https://data.transportation.gov/Aviatio ... /xgub-n9bw
https://data.transportation.gov/Aviatio ... /bpdu-tujd

YEGFlyer wrote:
As to how long, recent data shows LF is closer to 60% than 30% so it is already improving. Give it a year and it should normalize.


A casual observer might ask why Flair gets a multi-year leash for loads to normalize when others were operating at good LF for the duration of the same period. Also, Flair has had never had good transborder LF, so "normal" is where they're at right now unless the point of comparison is the average LF among the other airlines.

That casual observer might wonder the effect of a major regulatory inquiry on demand for international sub daily flying on a ULCC.
 
Acey
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:06 am

YEGFlyer wrote:
That casual observer might wonder the effect of a major regulatory inquiry on demand for international sub daily flying on a ULCC.


He also might wonder why they were in last by a significant margin long before, during, and after those claims... and reach the conclusion that the discovery of F8's foreign ownership has had no provable impact on their transborder performance.
 
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IceCream
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:10 am

YEGFlyer wrote:
IceCream wrote:
I think the plane sizes are really limiting them, if they had a smaller sized plane some of their new domestic routes would have even more potential.

I’m curious to see how much success they’re having on their major domestic routes. I believe there’s some space for a ULCC but since the US flights are doing so badly it must make more sense to build up domestic and then slowly enter that market later

I agree that transborder is relative peanuts in their overall ops. Clearly they are taking it slowly on transborder.

I’m happy to see Flair focus on the domestic front with YWG and YXU adds recently. I have no idea how viable these routes are but to me YWG-YLW/YYJ/YXU seem like great additions to me, especially YLW/YYJ.
 
Juju2004
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:59 am

YYJ is the largest unserved domestic market from YWG.
 
Jfermeee
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:09 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
The big difference is the new entrants in the US rarely try to compete with long established network carriers on core routes.

WS got traction in the market, not to mention spectacular operating margins in its first 7-8 years by focusing on markets where they were the only n/s player, (YEG-YLW, YEG-YYJ, YEG-YWG, YYJ-YXS, YXX to anywhere etc ) and operating 737’s against Dash 8’s, Bae146’s and F28’s, and doing so with fully allocated stage length adjusted unit costs 40% below the incumbents.


Two questions from this.
1 - Flair likely does not have full allocated SLA costs 40% below the incumbents like WS apparently did. However, they probably **are** lower by some margin than WestJet and Air Canada. Curious if you have a guess as to the CASM.

2 - On fully allocated costs, what would CASM look like for a Canadian ULCC no frills startup running an E2-195, 2x2, flying a 1000 mile stage, compared to a MAX?

Ie. if Porter ran its operation like an ULCC and not...a Lowish-Cost Carrier, could it work? Another way of asking: is the E195/A220 the right frame for the Canadian market thin routes, kind of like the bet made by Avelo and Breeze. Is the Max with multiple competitors on trunk routes, is too much metal?
 
jimbo737
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:48 pm

Interesting. Maybe I'm missing it, but the Mods apparently took down the post detailing Flair's July 2022 trans border loads, obtained from the US DoT site on line, free of charge. Is official US Government data not deemed reliable enough these days? The info was sourced from this data, the same data available to, and used by any decent airline analyst.

https://transtats.bts.gov/DL_SelectFiel ... 20Pn44vr45

Given Flair's inability to avoid unions, their unit cost advantage over is basically a bit of "juniority" and "densification". I haven't bothered with an asl calculation for a year or so but it's probably between 950 and 1,100 miles. They'd have no meaningful cost differential to Swoop and, at best 10-12% over WS mainline, (WS has economy of scale), and more still over AC.

It's not a big enough delta to overcome the significant yield, (TRASM), differential and no where near the 10.3 cents an asm over a 335 mile asl WS had in its early days when AC and CP were between 850 and 1,000 miles pushing 13 cents a mile.

No one is using / planning on using E2's in a LCC/ULCC scenario. They are high cost machines that don't generate enough asm's to drive down unit costs. They require premium yields, which you don't get without frequency and, for lack of a better term, time. Premium yields take time to earn and unless there's a very deep source of cash available, Porter / any airline in this situation doesn't have a lot of time to make this work. See Roots Air as a classic example of how much $ you can blow through in a month.

That's why no LCC/ULCC operators have ordered them. They'll have better trip costs than a 737-800 / A32X operator, just as a Smart Car has better trip costs than a mini van, but where it matters is unit costs and they'll be at a significant disadvantage. They're driving unit costs down by longer stage lengths, but that's the oldest trick in the books. It'll fool neophytes, but not the people who know the industry well.

Using E2's vs 737-800's or Max aircraft is not going to turn out well, esp on low yield leisure routes where price is king. And without those leisure routes, it's going to be tough to figure out how to generate 11-12 hour a day compensatory utilization 51 weeks a year.

Porter made a huge mistake by ordering as many frames as they have. Perhaps they'll get lucky and pull a "Max Ward" with all the excess capacity they have as they are forced to pare down their rather grandiose expectations of accomplishing in 2 years what took others 10.

With that airframe, they'd be far better off taking advantage of its characteristics in smaller niche markets where they'd have a much greater liklihood of achieving a yield premium that they'll need to make the numbers work. That being said, that would amount to maybe 8 aircraft.

Then there's the Canadian passion of being "seduced by the mile". But Porter doesn't have any "burn" routes yet and when they add them, they'll operate with at least a 20-23% unit cost disadvantage, which isn't going to help. I can't see them being able to get a nice yield premium on flights to CUN, PUJ, MBJ, MCO, FLL, LAS, etc.

It's not going to be easy and committing to growth that would even make David Neeleman turn his head isn't going to help.
 
Acey
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:28 am

jimbo737 wrote:
Interesting. Maybe I'm missing it, but the Mods apparently took down the post detailing Flair's July 2022 trans border loads, obtained from the US DoT site on line, free of charge. Is official US Government data not deemed reliable enough these days? The info was sourced from this data, the same data available to, and used by any decent airline analyst.

https://transtats.bts.gov/DL_SelectFiel ... 20Pn44vr45

Through the course of the continuous cleanup of this thread, the posts with our sources are being lost as collateral damage. As long as the links are posted every couple of pages it should be fine.
 
Jfermeee
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:04 am

jimbo737 wrote:
Interesting. Maybe I'm missing it, but the Mods apparently took down the post detailing Flair's July 2022 trans border loads, obtained from the US DoT site on line, free of charge. Is official US Government data not deemed reliable enough these days? The info was sourced from this data, the same data available to, and used by any decent airline analyst.

https://transtats.bts.gov/DL_SelectFiel ... 20Pn44vr45

Given Flair's inability to avoid unions, their unit cost advantage over is basically a bit of "juniority" and "densification". I haven't bothered with an asl calculation for a year or so but it's probably between 950 and 1,100 miles. They'd have no meaningful cost differential to Swoop and, at best 10-12% over WS mainline, (WS has economy of scale), and more still over AC.

It's not a big enough delta to overcome the significant yield, (TRASM), differential and no where near the 10.3 cents an asm over a 335 mile asl WS had in its early days when AC and CP were between 850 and 1,000 miles pushing 13 cents a mile.

No one is using / planning on using E2's in a LCC/ULCC scenario. They are high cost machines that don't generate enough asm's to drive down unit costs. They require premium yields, which you don't get without frequency and, for lack of a better term, time. Premium yields take time to earn and unless there's a very deep source of cash available, Porter / any airline in this situation doesn't have a lot of time to make this work. See Roots Air as a classic example of how much $ you can blow through in a month.

That's why no LCC/ULCC operators have ordered them. They'll have better trip costs than a 737-800 / A32X operator, just as a Smart Car has better trip costs than a mini van, but where it matters is unit costs and they'll be at a significant disadvantage. They're driving unit costs down by longer stage lengths, but that's the oldest trick in the books. It'll fool neophytes, but not the people who know the industry well.

Using E2's vs 737-800's or Max aircraft is not going to turn out well, esp on low yield leisure routes where price is king. And without those leisure routes, it's going to be tough to figure out how to generate 11-12 hour a day compensatory utilization 51 weeks a year.

Porter made a huge mistake by ordering as many frames as they have. Perhaps they'll get lucky and pull a "Max Ward" with all the excess capacity they have as they are forced to pare down their rather grandiose expectations of accomplishing in 2 years what took others 10.

With that airframe, they'd be far better off taking advantage of its characteristics in smaller niche markets where they'd have a much greater liklihood of achieving a yield premium that they'll need to make the numbers work. That being said, that would amount to maybe 8 aircraft.

Then there's the Canadian passion of being "seduced by the mile". But Porter doesn't have any "burn" routes yet and when they add them, they'll operate with at least a 20-23% unit cost disadvantage, which isn't going to help. I can't see them being able to get a nice yield premium on flights to CUN, PUJ, MBJ, MCO, FLL, LAS, etc.

It's not going to be easy and committing to growth that would even make David Neeleman turn his head isn't going to help.


Thanks. I appreciate the detailed response and I'm sure others do as well.
 
sxf24
Posts: 2428
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:03 am

jimbo737 wrote:
Interesting. Maybe I'm missing it, but the Mods apparently took down the post detailing Flair's July 2022 trans border loads, obtained from the US DoT site on line, free of charge. Is official US Government data not deemed reliable enough these days? The info was sourced from this data, the same data available to, and used by any decent airline analyst.

https://transtats.bts.gov/DL_SelectFiel ... 20Pn44vr45

Given Flair's inability to avoid unions, their unit cost advantage over is basically a bit of "juniority" and "densification". I haven't bothered with an asl calculation for a year or so but it's probably between 950 and 1,100 miles. They'd have no meaningful cost differential to Swoop and, at best 10-12% over WS mainline, (WS has economy of scale), and more still over AC.

It's not a big enough delta to overcome the significant yield, (TRASM), differential and no where near the 10.3 cents an asm over a 335 mile asl WS had in its early days when AC and CP were between 850 and 1,000 miles pushing 13 cents a mile.

No one is using / planning on using E2's in a LCC/ULCC scenario. They are high cost machines that don't generate enough asm's to drive down unit costs. They require premium yields, which you don't get without frequency and, for lack of a better term, time. Premium yields take time to earn and unless there's a very deep source of cash available, Porter / any airline in this situation doesn't have a lot of time to make this work. See Roots Air as a classic example of how much $ you can blow through in a month.

That's why no LCC/ULCC operators have ordered them. They'll have better trip costs than a 737-800 / A32X operator, just as a Smart Car has better trip costs than a mini van, but where it matters is unit costs and they'll be at a significant disadvantage. They're driving unit costs down by longer stage lengths, but that's the oldest trick in the books. It'll fool neophytes, but not the people who know the industry well.

Using E2's vs 737-800's or Max aircraft is not going to turn out well, esp on low yield leisure routes where price is king. And without those leisure routes, it's going to be tough to figure out how to generate 11-12 hour a day compensatory utilization 51 weeks a year.

Porter made a huge mistake by ordering as many frames as they have. Perhaps they'll get lucky and pull a "Max Ward" with all the excess capacity they have as they are forced to pare down their rather grandiose expectations of accomplishing in 2 years what took others 10.

With that airframe, they'd be far better off taking advantage of its characteristics in smaller niche markets where they'd have a much greater liklihood of achieving a yield premium that they'll need to make the numbers work. That being said, that would amount to maybe 8 aircraft.

Then there's the Canadian passion of being "seduced by the mile". But Porter doesn't have any "burn" routes yet and when they add them, they'll operate with at least a 20-23% unit cost disadvantage, which isn't going to help. I can't see them being able to get a nice yield premium on flights to CUN, PUJ, MBJ, MCO, FLL, LAS, etc.

It's not going to be easy and committing to growth that would even make David Neeleman turn his head isn't going to help.


I have a very different opinion on unit costs. Flair (and Lynx) run incredibly lean and I would expect them to be 40% below AC and 20% below WestJet, which has more of a legacy cost structure now. As we saw with Rouge, it is possible to get massive CASK reductions through cabin densification and operational simplification. Of course, Flair is at a severe RASK disadvantage to both AC and WestJet.
 
Juju2004
Posts: 336
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:29 pm

YEG-YKA starting june 15, 3x weekly
 
YEGFlyer
Posts: 584
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:03 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:50 pm

Juju2004 wrote:
YEG-YKA starting june 15, 3x weekly

I like this.

Interesting to see that there's no press release yet for YEG new summer destinations, but YKA quietly loaded, I wonder if there's something more in the works..
 
Juju2004
Posts: 336
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:57 pm

The YEG schedule is pretty much loaded except the Tuesday morning slot for YEG-BNA that got pulled for July and August and a late night YVR/YYJ turn that could be scheduled. That's if they don't add a fourth plane at YEG but i would doubt so.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 4134
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:30 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Interesting. Maybe I'm missing it, but the Mods apparently took down the post detailing Flair's July 2022 trans border loads, obtained from the US DoT site on line, free of charge. Is official US Government data not deemed reliable enough these days? The info was sourced from this data, the same data available to, and used by any decent airline analyst.

https://transtats.bts.gov/DL_SelectFiel ... 20Pn44vr45



I sure wish we still had that level of transparency of publicly available domestic city pair data within Canada. Stats Can ceased that publication after the 1997 report.
 
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IceCream
Posts: 1421
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:13 am

YKA is gonna be a tough one on the Max 8. I think WS tried it with the Q400 recently and bailed out. This is where having some connections would help flair
 
Juju2004
Posts: 336
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:35 am

They could do like lynx and sell through flights but that would require a major schedule change and way more complicated and costly crew scheduling.
 
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cirrusdragoon
Posts: 999
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 6:03 am

Flair Airlines flight from Cancun, Mexico, that was supposed to land in Toronto was forced to make an emergency landing in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., after a malfunction with the aircrafts pressurization system.

Article : https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/flai ... nt5QVZf464
 
cedar5
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2023 2:46 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:55 pm

Another F8 flight diverted the same day (7 Feb) to TUS on the YXX-PVR run with a speed brake issue. That Max8 (C-FLUT) was still on the ground at TUS on 10 Feb.
 
TexasAirCorp
Posts: 1112
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:24 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:49 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
Flair Airlines flight from Cancun, Mexico, that was supposed to land in Toronto was forced to make an emergency landing in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., after a malfunction with the aircrafts pressurization system.

Article : https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/flai ... nt5QVZf464


cedar5 wrote:
Another F8 flight diverted the same day (7 Feb) to TUS on the YXX-PVR run with a speed brake issue. That Max8 (C-FLUT) was still on the ground at TUS on 10 Feb.


The smell of JetsGo is in the air...
 
ET1EDM
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:56 am

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:29 pm

Looks like a problem with the MAX 8. Is there a website that tracks problems specific to the 737-8M for all airlines?
 
Acey
Posts: 2674
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:43 pm

ET1EDM wrote:
Looks like a problem with the MAX 8. Is there a website that tracks problems specific to the 737-8M for all airlines?

Do you have evidence that this is a recurring problem with the MAX 8, know what this specific issue was, or know the occurrence rate of pressurization faults on the MAX 8 vs other types?

Or did you just make the claim that it's a recurring issue with the MAX 8 and then hope a non-existent source will back up your claim after the fact?
 
Juju2004
Posts: 336
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:54 pm

Qantas recently had 5 737 diversions due to technical issues in a week, doesn't mean the 737-800 has a problem.
 
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CrewBunk
Posts: 1245
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Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:00 pm

These things happen. It’s really no reflection on the airline or airframe type.

In my opinion, the real acid test is how did the airline respond. Flair put two plane loads full of passengers away from their destination. How were they treated? Were accommodations/meals arranged? Was a rescue mission arranged? Did the airline have staff contactable 24/7 to keep passengers up to date? Did they arrive at their destination 4 hours/12 hours/1 day/3 days late?

Most airlines have a team ready and plans already in place …. just in case.

Any airline is fine when things work out well, the real gauge is when they don’t.
 
BML87
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:55 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:15 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
These things happen. It’s really no reflection on the airline or airframe type.

In my opinion, the real acid test is how did the airline respond. Flair put two plane loads full of passengers away from their destination. How were they treated? Were accommodations/meals arranged? Was a rescue mission arranged? Did the airline have staff contactable 24/7 to keep passengers up to date? Did they arrive at their destination 4 hours/12 hours/1 day/3 days late?

Most airlines have a team ready and plans already in place …. just in case.

Any airline is fine when things work out well, the real gauge is when they don’t.


According to this they were given accommodations, meals, rebooked, refunded and given 2 free flights.

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2171391555969
 
Juju2004
Posts: 336
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:13 pm

We could see potential new adds soon such as YQG-YYC up to 4x weekly and YKF-YSJ 1 or 2x weekly. More transborder is unlikely, but YYZ-LAX could be a strong one.
 
ET1EDM
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:56 am

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:20 pm

BML87 wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
These things happen. It’s really no reflection on the airline or airframe type.

In my opinion, the real acid test is how did the airline respond. Flair put two plane loads full of passengers away from their destination. How were they treated? Were accommodations/meals arranged? Was a rescue mission arranged? Did the airline have staff contactable 24/7 to keep passengers up to date? Did they arrive at their destination 4 hours/12 hours/1 day/3 days late?

Most airlines have a team ready and plans already in place …. just in case.

Any airline is fine when things work out well, the real gauge is when they don’t.


According to this they were given accommodations, meals, rebooked, refunded and given 2 free flights.

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2171391555969

Much better than the treatment we were given by Westjet and Swoop for flights during Covid and in our recent travels. I have only flown Flair one-way from LAS to YEG and it was unremarkable but that is a good thing.
 
JakeLRS
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:12 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:59 pm

Juju2004 wrote:
We could see potential new adds soon such as YQG-YYC up to 4x weekly and YKF-YSJ 1 or 2x weekly. More transborder is unlikely, but YYZ-LAX could be a strong one.


YQG-YVR being added per reliable source on Skyscraper thread.

I would think YQG-YYC is also another fitting add; on par with the recent YXU adds.

YHM would remain the only southern Ontario airport without direct/non-stop service to YVR. Swoop won't enter the YVR market and I don't think Lynx has the planes for it. YHM is the 2nd largest market in Southern-Ontario so you would think YVR-YHM would be a no brainer...
 
jimbo737
Posts: 1232
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:54 am

The US DoT numbers for August 2022 are in and available on line to anyone with a heartbeat, a computer and an internet connection.

There were a total of 2,675,213 sched seats in the trans border marketplace in Aug 2022, with an average l/f of 83.7%. Once again, there was lots of spill traffic is available to be had, especially on peak travel days, notably Thurs-Sunday.

Flair, with 1.57% of the total available trans border seats managed, (drum roll please), a l/f of 73.6%. That's the good news. The bad news is they remain a 8th out of 8th of Canadian domiciled airlines when it comes to l/f, the next closest being Swoop at 75.3% with .7% of trans border capacity, then Transat at 76.6% with 1.4% of trans border capacity.

Once again, the highest l/f belongs to WS at 88.6% with 12.9% of trans border capacity.

Canadian domiciled airlines operate 66.3% of all trans border seats.
 
Juju2004
Posts: 336
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:42 pm

YVR-SFO and YVR-LAX will be daily this summer.
 
YEGFlyer
Posts: 584
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:03 pm

Re: Flair Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:16 pm

Nice.

Looks like transborder issues are finally clearing up.

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