Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
B6SpiritofEWR
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:29 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:09 am

santi319 wrote:
Wingtips56 wrote:
So which airports do B6 and NK both serve that are slot controlled/capacity limited? Other than these, any carrier could waltz in now, so what divestitures would make a difference?

Jetblue will have to give up JFK slots for sure.
FLL BOS and MCO could see some gates divestures.
Slots at EWR and LGA almost certainly will be divested.
LAX could see maybe a gate loss but doubtful after B6’s drama with LGB.

And most importantly the NEA will have to be terminated.

Then, suddenly the DOJ will be like “fair enough” and the merger will be allowed.


Who’s gonna want the EWR slots besides United?
 
rj777
Posts: 2113
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:08 am

I wonder if any new cities will be added that neither NK or B6 currently serve.
 
FlyinRabbit88
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:16 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:41 am

rj777 wrote:
I wonder if any new cities will be added that neither NK or B6 currently serve.

In the press release today
“ Add 20 new routes to destinations not currently served by JetBlue or Spirit”.
Leaves it up in the air until they announce them / sell tickets. 2027 is still a long way away.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 6044
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:52 am

B6SpiritofEWR wrote:
While I agree with many posts on here claiming that many NK routes will be abandoned if the mergers proceeds, specifically routes that don’t fit into the new combined carrier’s model, I have to wonder what will happen to a lot of these aircraft? I feel like once they are relocated there is only so much room to grow in existing B6 strongholds such as BOS and JFK. Would they even be allowed to grow there??? LAX growth is natural, hopefully LAS is too. Would they be allowed to grow at EWR or does the combined carrier have to divest NK’s assets there as it’s apart of NYC?

IATA has already said that EWR is not a NYC destination though we all know different. So? I would think that DOT will go along with that premise and not penalize B6 for being there. Though? I think B6 with NK would have to rethink their west coast strategy and not try to Mob UP at any single point on the west coast and maybe spread themselves to hit enough locations Nationwide to befit their union being approved to maybe add SEA/PDX, DFW/IAH/ELP. DEN/SLC, ORD/DTW/MSP and SFO/OAK/SMF. Anything BUT mobbing up in the NE and FLA. Because that will Not gain approval.
 
jplatts
Posts: 7147
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:58 am

strfyr51 wrote:
IATA has already said that EWR is not a NYC destination though we all know differen


The US DOT Consumer Airfare Report still considers EWR to be part of the New York City market (along with LGA/JFK/HPN/SWF/ISP).
 
IADCA
Posts: 2878
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:09 am

santi319 wrote:
Wingtips56 wrote:
So which airports do B6 and NK both serve that are slot controlled/capacity limited? Other than these, any carrier could waltz in now, so what divestitures would make a difference?

Jetblue will have to give up JFK slots for sure.
FLL BOS and MCO could see some gates divestures.
Slots at EWR and LGA almost certainly will be divested.
LAX could see maybe a gate loss but doubtful after B6’s drama with LGB.

And most importantly the NEA will have to be terminated.

Then, suddenly the DOJ will be like “fair enough” and the merger will be allowed.


If the DOJ were willing to take that deal, it'd already be done. Instead, most of that was already offered and DOJ saw it as laughable enough that instead of negotiating they just threw it into their complaint. This is not 2013, when a deal like that most likely would have worked. The world is different.

The biggest problem with including the NEA in any solution is that it teaches companies a lesson that DOJ can't afford: "Sign two agreements that might violate the antitrust laws, then sacrifice one to get the other one through." There's just no realistic possibility of DOJ signing onto that unless B6 and AA have already won the NEA trial when the offer is made. And if they win that trial, I doubt B6 would be in a settlement mood.
 
FlyinRabbit88
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:16 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:20 am

IADCA wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Wingtips56 wrote:
So which airports do B6 and NK both serve that are slot controlled/capacity limited? Other than these, any carrier could waltz in now, so what divestitures would make a difference?

Jetblue will have to give up JFK slots for sure.
FLL BOS and MCO could see some gates divestures.
Slots at EWR and LGA almost certainly will be divested.
LAX could see maybe a gate loss but doubtful after B6’s drama with LGB.

And most importantly the NEA will have to be terminated.

Then, suddenly the DOJ will be like “fair enough” and the merger will be allowed.


If the DOJ were willing to take that deal, it'd already be done. Instead, most of that was already offered and DOJ saw it as laughable enough that instead of negotiating they just threw it into their complaint.

The biggest problem with including the NEA in any solution is that it teaches companies a lesson that DOJ can't afford: "Sign two agreements that might violate the antitrust laws, then sacrifice one to get the other one through." There's just no realistic possibility of DOJ signing onto that unless B6 and AA have already won the NEA trial when the offer is made. And if they win that trial, I doubt B6 would be in a settlement mood.


Which makes the continued delay in the ruling of the NEA very interesting. As with the DOJ wanting the same judge to oversee the B6/NK trial which was denied. There is a chance the DOJ avoids wanting to look like they messed this whole thing up and settles later in the trial process if they feel like they will lose both the NEA complaint and the B6/NK trial. At which point does the DOT still go with the threat to prevent transfer of NK operation certificate?
 
rj777
Posts: 2113
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:01 pm

FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
rj777 wrote:
I wonder if any new cities will be added that neither NK or B6 currently serve.

In the press release today
“ Add 20 new routes to destinations not currently served by JetBlue or Spirit”.
Leaves it up in the air until they announce them / sell tickets. 2027 is still a long way away.


Here's hoping OMA is on the list!
 
User avatar
EWR22LAS25
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:21 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:56 pm

What's the timeframe for a new terminal in OMA? I was there last year for Berkshire Hathaway and I was utterly disgusted by the entire facility. People used to talk about LGA and EWR but both facilities are/were a far cry nicer than every square inch of OMA.

rj777 wrote:
FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
rj777 wrote:
I wonder if any new cities will be added that neither NK or B6 currently serve.

In the press release today
“ Add 20 new routes to destinations not currently served by JetBlue or Spirit”.
Leaves it up in the air until they announce them / sell tickets. 2027 is still a long way away.


Here's hoping OMA is on the list!
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 2390
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:16 pm

EWR22LAS25 wrote:
What's the timeframe for a new terminal in OMA? I was there last year for Berkshire Hathaway and I was utterly disgusted by the entire facility. People used to talk about LGA and EWR but both facilities are/were a far cry nicer than every square inch of OMA.



2027 for final construction of new terminal and concourse. New roadways, parking garage and consolidated rental car facility are already done.

https://omaha.com/news/local/constructi ... a0137.html
 
IADCA
Posts: 2878
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:20 pm

FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Jetblue will have to give up JFK slots for sure.
FLL BOS and MCO could see some gates divestures.
Slots at EWR and LGA almost certainly will be divested.
LAX could see maybe a gate loss but doubtful after B6’s drama with LGB.

And most importantly the NEA will have to be terminated.

Then, suddenly the DOJ will be like “fair enough” and the merger will be allowed.


If the DOJ were willing to take that deal, it'd already be done. Instead, most of that was already offered and DOJ saw it as laughable enough that instead of negotiating they just threw it into their complaint.

The biggest problem with including the NEA in any solution is that it teaches companies a lesson that DOJ can't afford: "Sign two agreements that might violate the antitrust laws, then sacrifice one to get the other one through." There's just no realistic possibility of DOJ signing onto that unless B6 and AA have already won the NEA trial when the offer is made. And if they win that trial, I doubt B6 would be in a settlement mood.


Which makes the continued delay in the ruling of the NEA very interesting. As with the DOJ wanting the same judge to oversee the B6/NK trial which was denied. There is a chance the DOJ avoids wanting to look like they messed this whole thing up and settles later in the trial process if they feel like they will lose both the NEA complaint and the B6/NK trial. At which point does the DOT still go with the threat to prevent transfer of NK operation certificate?


I think if B6/AA win the NEA trial, there's no settlement on the table from the B6 side. I don't see why there would be. From an antitrust lawyer perspective, the NEA case is a much easier one for DOJ. It's not a merger, as much as the DOJ messed up trying the case by using rhetoric as if it was.

It's a Sherman Act Section 1 case, and several aspects of the NEA lend themselves to per se treatment. That's a much easier legal standard, if you can get the judge to apply it. But decisions in cases where there's a reasonable argument over what the legal standard even should be take a long, long time because that's the classic issue for appeal and judges hate being overruled on appeal. I'd bet a lot of money that that is why the NEA case is taking so long. I also would not be shocked if the decision came today.

As for the judicial assignment, that's mostly administrative. I'm not sure either party would have been upset if they got the same judge, but judges have bulging dockets and two lengthy trials in a fairly short time span messes that up. Again, it's not anything nefarious; it's just how the federal court system works.

I also find it curious that people on here (not necessarily you) who are so clearly pro-parties in this case are salivating over the prospect of a settlement. Usually that causes me to think something about the relative strengths of the underlying cases.

I also can't see DOT taking this to the wall. That's an administrative law nightmare and a near-certain loss in court for multiple reasons. They simply don't have the jurisdiction to pull certificates over antitrust issues, much less if the case has already been adjudicated in court.
 
Mikeer50
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:12 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:24 pm

[list=][/list]IADAC, do you think the gist of decision has been leaked to either party? I would image that a case with this many people working on it would be tough to keep completely under wraps (even under penalty of law). Also, how do you think the NEA decision will affect the overall situation? Thanks for any insight.
 
MavyWavyATR
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:37 am

Assuming the deal is granted approval & closes, do you think we could see B6 incorporate NK's "Big Front Seat" concept into their Mint product (it'd be something I call 'Mini Mint')? This would allow the combined carrier to have an answer to the Big 3's domestic first class offering on routes B6 would be going head to head on.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 962
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:41 pm

MavyWavyATR wrote:
Assuming the deal is granted approval & closes, do you think we could see B6 incorporate NK's "Big Front Seat" concept into their Mint product (it'd be something I call 'Mini Mint')? This would allow the combined carrier to have an answer to the Big 3's domestic first class offering on routes B6 would be going head to head on.


No. But they should.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2866
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:17 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
MavyWavyATR wrote:
Assuming the deal is granted approval & closes, do you think we could see B6 incorporate NK's "Big Front Seat" concept into their Mint product (it'd be something I call 'Mini Mint')? This would allow the combined carrier to have an answer to the Big 3's domestic first class offering on routes B6 would be going head to head on.


No. But they should.

I really hope the BFS survives in some form, at least until the entire fleet is standardized.
 
santi319
Posts: 1613
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:02 pm

The BFS with Jetblue’s product would be fantastic for them.. surely they have done the economics on it..
 
ty97
Posts: 859
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 1:06 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:23 pm

It almost seems unnecessary to make B6/NK divest slots at LGA since they (even combined) have a rather limited number or slots there. That doesn't mean it won't be required, but they are (even combined) a rather minor player at LGA. B6 only has the service level it has currently at LGA because it is using some AA slots via the NEA IIRC (and the NEA is certainly going to go away for this merger to work).

JFK though, B6 will almost certainly have to give up slots.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 910
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:45 pm

ty97 wrote:
It almost seems unnecessary to make B6/NK divest slots at LGA since they (even combined) have a rather limited number or slots there. That doesn't mean it won't be required, but they are (even combined) a rather minor player at LGA. B6 only has the service level it has currently at LGA because it is using some AA slots via the NEA IIRC (and the NEA is certainly going to go away for this merger to work).

JFK though, B6 will almost certainly have to give up slots.

Why would B6 have to give up slots at JFK when spirit has no service there, and B6 is still smaller than the big 3 in NYC post merger? I can see them giving up the spirit gates in BOS, and maybe something in FLL, and likely all the AA LGA/JFK stuff they are using from the NEA, but I don’t see an argument for giving up JFK slots when they 1) don’t have the most as is and 2) NK has zero.
 
evank516
Posts: 3059
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:19 pm

IADCA wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Wingtips56 wrote:
So which airports do B6 and NK both serve that are slot controlled/capacity limited? Other than these, any carrier could waltz in now, so what divestitures would make a difference?

Jetblue will have to give up JFK slots for sure.
FLL BOS and MCO could see some gates divestures.
Slots at EWR and LGA almost certainly will be divested.
LAX could see maybe a gate loss but doubtful after B6’s drama with LGB.

And most importantly the NEA will have to be terminated.

Then, suddenly the DOJ will be like “fair enough” and the merger will be allowed.


If the DOJ were willing to take that deal, it'd already be done. Instead, most of that was already offered and DOJ saw it as laughable enough that instead of negotiating they just threw it into their complaint. This is not 2013, when a deal like that most likely would have worked. The world is different.

The biggest problem with including the NEA in any solution is that it teaches companies a lesson that DOJ can't afford: "Sign two agreements that might violate the antitrust laws, then sacrifice one to get the other one through." There's just no realistic possibility of DOJ signing onto that unless B6 and AA have already won the NEA trial when the offer is made. And if they win that trial, I doubt B6 would be in a settlement mood.


I see zero reason for B6 having to give up JFK slots. The combined B6/NK would not increase their slot portfolio at JFK because only B6 flies there. But they will definitely have to divest LGA slots. I thought EWR wasn't slot controlled anymore? Why is everyone mentioning EWR slots?
 
Abeam79
Posts: 767
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:16 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:00 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
ty97 wrote:
It almost seems unnecessary to make B6/NK divest slots at LGA since they (even combined) have a rather limited number or slots there. That doesn't mean it won't be required, but they are (even combined) a rather minor player at LGA. B6 only has the service level it has currently at LGA because it is using some AA slots via the NEA IIRC (and the NEA is certainly going to go away for this merger to work).

JFK though, B6 will almost certainly have to give up slots.

Why would B6 have to give up slots at JFK when spirit has no service there, and B6 is still smaller than the big 3 in NYC post merger? I can see them giving up the spirit gates in BOS, and maybe something in FLL, and likely all the AA LGA/JFK stuff they are using from the NEA, but I don’t see an argument for giving up JFK slots when they 1) don’t have the most as is and 2) NK has zero.


My sentients exactly! I am not sure why people bring up divestures in NYC area. Usually divestitures historically have been when the combines company gains considerably bigger in one shot via the merger. In this case you have NK with ZERO presence in JFK, and if the NEA is shot down in order to get the NK/B6 merger approved then B6 will actually lose slots in JFK since they have to give back the borrowed slots to AA> same in LGA, but they will gain 11ish slots from Nk so now with the NEA B6 at LGA have @55ish flights, if they have to give up the NEA they will go back to B6 original slots, @20 + NK slots @11 so they go from 55ish flights down to @30ish. And in EWR they each combined would be about 75 flights a day, possibly able to build up to 100, but thats still 75% smaller than UAL with over 400 flights a day. I can't see why they would have to give in NYC they will be #3 post merger but the UA/DL will get to keep what they have. I can see maybe BOS, but FLL/MCO would be where they would focus on some divestures, beyond what B6 already offered which is already kinda generous.
 
santi319
Posts: 1613
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:21 pm

evank516 wrote:
I thought EWR wasn't slot controlled anymore? Why is everyone mentioning EWR slots?


It is not but it is in a way, somehow they call it schedule review.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) uses runway slots to limit scheduled air traffic at certain capacity constrained airports. In the U.S., those airports are John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), LaGuardia Airport (LGA), and Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport (DCA). In addition, the FAA monitors scheduled air traffic demand at other airports and has a formal schedule review and approval process at several airports. Those airports are Chicago O'Hare International Airport (ORD), Los Angeles International Airport (LAX), Newark Liberty International Airport (EWR), and San Francisco International Airport (SFO).

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... nistration
 
evank516
Posts: 3059
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:02 pm

Abeam79 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
ty97 wrote:
It almost seems unnecessary to make B6/NK divest slots at LGA since they (even combined) have a rather limited number or slots there. That doesn't mean it won't be required, but they are (even combined) a rather minor player at LGA. B6 only has the service level it has currently at LGA because it is using some AA slots via the NEA IIRC (and the NEA is certainly going to go away for this merger to work).

JFK though, B6 will almost certainly have to give up slots.

Why would B6 have to give up slots at JFK when spirit has no service there, and B6 is still smaller than the big 3 in NYC post merger? I can see them giving up the spirit gates in BOS, and maybe something in FLL, and likely all the AA LGA/JFK stuff they are using from the NEA, but I don’t see an argument for giving up JFK slots when they 1) don’t have the most as is and 2) NK has zero.


My sentients exactly! I am not sure why people bring up divestures in NYC area. Usually divestitures historically have been when the combines company gains considerably bigger in one shot via the merger. In this case you have NK with ZERO presence in JFK, and if the NEA is shot down in order to get the NK/B6 merger approved then B6 will actually lose slots in JFK since they have to give back the borrowed slots to AA> same in LGA, but they will gain 11ish slots from Nk so now with the NEA B6 at LGA have @55ish flights, if they have to give up the NEA they will go back to B6 original slots, @20 + NK slots @11 so they go from 55ish flights down to @30ish. And in EWR they each combined would be about 75 flights a day, possibly able to build up to 100, but thats still 75% smaller than UAL with over 400 flights a day. I can't see why they would have to give in NYC they will be #3 post merger but the UA/DL will get to keep what they have. I can see maybe BOS, but FLL/MCO would be where they would focus on some divestures, beyond what B6 already offered which is already kinda generous.


I have to wonder about the NEA though. If B6 is still the number 3 carrier in NYC, how is the NEA an Anti Trust issue for them? Wouldn't AA be the concern over B6?
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 2781
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:06 pm

Spirit stock is trading for less than $17 dollars a share today. So why is that if JetBlue's offer was $33 per share?

Seems like an easy way to almost double your money.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 27710
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:18 pm

The record day for the next $0.10 per share prepayment to Spirit stockholders will be March 27.

Thats another ~$10mil out the door from JetBlue's treasury.

https://ir.jetblue.com/financials/sec-f ... d=16497854
 
IADCA
Posts: 2878
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:44 pm

evank516 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Jetblue will have to give up JFK slots for sure.
FLL BOS and MCO could see some gates divestures.
Slots at EWR and LGA almost certainly will be divested.
LAX could see maybe a gate loss but doubtful after B6’s drama with LGB.

And most importantly the NEA will have to be terminated.

Then, suddenly the DOJ will be like “fair enough” and the merger will be allowed.


If the DOJ were willing to take that deal, it'd already be done. Instead, most of that was already offered and DOJ saw it as laughable enough that instead of negotiating they just threw it into their complaint. This is not 2013, when a deal like that most likely would have worked. The world is different.

The biggest problem with including the NEA in any solution is that it teaches companies a lesson that DOJ can't afford: "Sign two agreements that might violate the antitrust laws, then sacrifice one to get the other one through." There's just no realistic possibility of DOJ signing onto that unless B6 and AA have already won the NEA trial when the offer is made. And if they win that trial, I doubt B6 would be in a settlement mood.


I see zero reason for B6 having to give up JFK slots. The combined B6/NK would not increase their slot portfolio at JFK because only B6 flies there. But they will definitely have to divest LGA slots. I thought EWR wasn't slot controlled anymore? Why is everyone mentioning EWR slots?


Correct on all.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 938
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:47 pm

I am sorry but Delta is the monopoly that needs to be at LGA. They are the ones who were allowed to have almost half the slots at the airport. Why force anyone else to give up slots?
 
evank516
Posts: 3059
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:49 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
I am sorry but Delta is the monopoly that needs to be at LGA. They are the ones who were allowed to have almost half the slots at the airport. Why force anyone else to give up slots?


I think your point is valid. Even a combined B6/NK and AA wouldn't come close to the slot portfolio Delta has at LGA.
 
FlyinRabbit88
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:16 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:04 pm

evank516 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
I am sorry but Delta is the monopoly that needs to be at LGA. They are the ones who were allowed to have almost half the slots at the airport. Why force anyone else to give up slots?


I think your point is valid. Even a combined B6/NK and AA wouldn't come close to the slot portfolio Delta has at LGA.

Don’t forget about the WestJet joint venture plans with Delta that deepens how big Delta is in NYC. Yup sure makes B6/NK look minimal and a good way to fight prices against delta and be good for consumers especially at LGA.
 
dopplerd
Posts: 297
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:30 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:09 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Spirit stock is trading for less than $17 dollars a share today. So why is that if JetBlue's offer was $33 per share?

Seems like an easy way to almost double your money.


1. The payout is decent way off, not great if you wany your money today especially if you bought during the Covid low and feel like there are better opportunities elsewhere in the market.
2. The JetBlue buyout is contingent on consummation of the merger which isn't a sure thing. With the spike in interest rates there may be some uncertainty that the deal will be able to be funded.
3. About $3.00 of the initial offer has already been paid out through initial payment and a ticking fee so the value is now around $30 (and decreasing) not $33.00 further decreasing the upside for a new owner of SAVE.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 2781
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:12 pm

dopplerd wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Spirit stock is trading for less than $17 dollars a share today. So why is that if JetBlue's offer was $33 per share?

Seems like an easy way to almost double your money.


1. The payout is decent way off, not great if you wany your money today especially if you bought during the Covid low and feel like there are better opportunities elsewhere in the market.
2. The JetBlue buyout is contingent on consummation of the merger which isn't a sure thing. With the spike in interest rates there may be some uncertainty that the deal will be able to be funded.
3. About $3.00 of the initial offer has already been paid out through initial payment and a ticking fee so the value is now around $30 (and decreasing) not $33.00 further decreasing the upside for a new owner of SAVE.



Good points. But even if the merger is called off doesn't Spirit still get $450 million on top of the pre-payments?
 
Detroit313
Posts: 938
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:16 pm

evank516 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
I am sorry but Delta is the monopoly that needs to be at LGA. They are the ones who were allowed to have almost half the slots at the airport. Why force anyone else to give up slots?


I think your point is valid. Even a combined B6/NK and AA wouldn't come close to the slot portfolio Delta has at LGA.


It was also very unfair to take LGA slots from AA in order for the merger with US to go through. Delta was still massive compared to AA even if AA had kept all their slots.
 
dopplerd
Posts: 297
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:30 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:30 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
dopplerd wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Spirit stock is trading for less than $17 dollars a share today. So why is that if JetBlue's offer was $33 per share?

Seems like an easy way to almost double your money.


1. The payout is decent way off, not great if you wany your money today especially if you bought during the Covid low and feel like there are better opportunities elsewhere in the market.
2. The JetBlue buyout is contingent on consummation of the merger which isn't a sure thing. With the spike in interest rates there may be some uncertainty that the deal will be able to be funded.
3. About $3.00 of the initial offer has already been paid out through initial payment and a ticking fee so the value is now around $30 (and decreasing) not $33.00 further decreasing the upside for a new owner of SAVE.



Good points. But even if the merger is called off doesn't Spirit still get $450 million on top of the pre-payments?


I think the prepayment and ticking fee are deducted from the $450M. I could be wrong on this point.

Also $450M is only about $4.00 per share, nice to get but not anywhere near $33.50.
 
fastmover
Posts: 1059
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:54 pm

LAXintl wrote:
The record day for the next $0.10 per share prepayment to Spirit stockholders will be March 27.

Thats another ~$10mil out the door from JetBlue's treasury.

https://ir.jetblue.com/financials/sec-f ... d=16497854



You seem happy about that?
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 2781
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:06 am

dopplerd wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
dopplerd wrote:

1. The payout is decent way off, not great if you wany your money today especially if you bought during the Covid low and feel like there are better opportunities elsewhere in the market.
2. The JetBlue buyout is contingent on consummation of the merger which isn't a sure thing. With the spike in interest rates there may be some uncertainty that the deal will be able to be funded.
3. About $3.00 of the initial offer has already been paid out through initial payment and a ticking fee so the value is now around $30 (and decreasing) not $33.00 further decreasing the upside for a new owner of SAVE.



Good points. But even if the merger is called off doesn't Spirit still get $450 million on top of the pre-payments?


I think the prepayment and ticking fee are deducted from the $450M. I could be wrong on this point.

Also $450M is only about $4.00 per share, nice to get but not anywhere near $33.50.


With the market now very adverse to risk, any guess on what the interest rate will be on the buyout loan or bond issuance? l
 
strfyr51
Posts: 6044
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:15 am

phluser wrote:
A red flag is JetBlue's plan to remove Spirit's high density configuration, resulting in less seats as a result

I wonder two things
1. Could JetBlue have left seating configuration details out of its merger plan, and then made the seating configuration decisions well after the merger is passed?

2. To get the merger approved, at this point-beyond slot or gate concessions, could JetBlue actually adopt a high density seating configuration by leaving the Spirit seats mostly in tact, and offer a new discounted economy fare for those seats on its non BOS/business routes.

wouldn't B6's seating configuration have more to do with How far they need to fly their routings rather than how many passengers they carry? B6 may very well need to fly transcon with those same airplanes and so may very well need to add Lavs and galleys to the airplanes and might very well have to reduce seats in order to do that.. As it is? the DOT is coming under pressure from the flying public about seat width and seat Pitch distance.. So? Reducing the seat count on Spirit airplanes? Might well be an issue for B6 to even get approval FOR the merger. That they may get away with it later? Is up for debate or speculation.. but right now? the deal is to sweeten the pot to get the merger approved.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 27710
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:27 am

JetBlue and DOJ talking trial dates. JetBlue proposed September and DOJ wants late October. Both parties believe the trial would take 4 weeks..

https://www.reuters.com/business/us-ann ... 023-03-07/

U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland got involved making a comment that JetBlue's internal documents show that when Spirit stops flying a route, fares go up by 30%, and when Spirit enters a new market fares go down on average 17%.
 
Poorpilot
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:59 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:14 am

LAXintl wrote:
JetBlue and DOJ talking trial dates. JetBlue proposed September and DOJ wants late October. Both parties believe the trial would take 4 weeks..

https://www.reuters.com/business/us-ann ... 023-03-07/

U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland got involved making a comment that JetBlue's internal documents show that when Spirit stops flying a route, fares go up by 30%, and when Spirit enters a new market fares go down on average 17%.


This was the actual quote from the article:
Attorney General Merrick Garland said Spirit's internal documents show that when it enters a market fares fall by 17% while JetBlue's internal documents show that when Spirit stops flying a route, fares go up by 30%.

Not stating it’s true or false, but the original quote only stated a Jetblue internal reference.
 
HunterATL
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:15 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:21 pm

The trial will begin on October 16. The case was assigned to Judge William Young who is not the judge overseeing the NEA matter in the same court.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 27710
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:43 pm

DOT out with its formal denial of transfer Spirit route authorities to JetBlue.

I found it interesting they also cited a Presidential 2021 Executive Order about competition as a reason for denial, not just the pending DOJ lawsuit.

OST-2023-0023
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 27710
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:41 am

California, Maryland, New Jersey, and North Carolina join suit to block the B6/NK merger.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/31/califor ... rger-.html

Separately, Florida which is conducting a probe said it would drop the inquiry if the airline increase seat capacity by 50% at Fort Lauderdale and Orlando airports once merged.
 
comped
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:44 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:24 am

LAXintl wrote:
Separately, Florida which is conducting a probe said it would drop the inquiry if the airline increase seat capacity by 50% at Fort Lauderdale and Orlando airports once merged.

We know they won't. Orlando has the room but surely GOAA can't be terribly happy about increasing JetBlue's control over terminal C any further... Combined the two wood certainly have what I would consider a problematic level of control in terms of slots in the airport, especially when you increase the number of seats by that much.
 
CRJ200flyer
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:32 am

comped wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Separately, Florida which is conducting a probe said it would drop the inquiry if the airline increase seat capacity by 50% at Fort Lauderdale and Orlando airports once merged.

We know they won't. Orlando has the room but surely GOAA can't be terribly happy about increasing JetBlue's control over terminal C any further... Combined the two wood certainly have what I would consider a problematic level of control in terms of slots in the airport, especially when you increase the number of seats by that much.


I have to clarify these are not slot controlled airports, and increasing seats can mean larger aircraft, which if JetBlue swaps out E190s for some 220s and 321s could rapidly increase total seat count.
 
comped
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:44 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:37 am

CRJ200flyer wrote:
comped wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Separately, Florida which is conducting a probe said it would drop the inquiry if the airline increase seat capacity by 50% at Fort Lauderdale and Orlando airports once merged.

We know they won't. Orlando has the room but surely GOAA can't be terribly happy about increasing JetBlue's control over terminal C any further... Combined the two wood certainly have what I would consider a problematic level of control in terms of slots in the airport, especially when you increase the number of seats by that much.


I have to clarify these are not slot controlled airports, and increasing seats can mean larger aircraft, which if JetBlue swaps out E190s for some 220s and 321s could rapidly increase total seat count.

Surely the government of Florida cannot be that stupid. They really should not be giving them such an easy target to meet, and even if they are, ignoring the issues that exist capital of airports in terms of the percentage of flights that the combined entity would control. Particularly in Orlando this would be extremely concerning for many...
 
santi319
Posts: 1613
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:07 am

comped wrote:
CRJ200flyer wrote:
comped wrote:
We know they won't. Orlando has the room but surely GOAA can't be terribly happy about increasing JetBlue's control over terminal C any further... Combined the two wood certainly have what I would consider a problematic level of control in terms of slots in the airport, especially when you increase the number of seats by that much.


I have to clarify these are not slot controlled airports, and increasing seats can mean larger aircraft, which if JetBlue swaps out E190s for some 220s and 321s could rapidly increase total seat count.

Surely the government of Florida cannot be that stupid. They really should not be giving them such an easy target to meet, and even if they are, ignoring the issues that exist capital of airports in terms of the percentage of flights that the combined entity would control. Particularly in Orlando this would be extremely concerning for many...


Why? I don’t get whats the big difference when you have airports like Atlanta, Dallas, Phoenix, Houston, Newark etc and of course Miami, all massive hubs from one airline… why are we are drawing the line now? Thats unfair to be honest.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 15716
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sat Apr 01, 2023 1:29 pm

LAXintl wrote:
California, Maryland, New Jersey, and North Carolina join suit to block the B6/NK merger.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/31/califor ... rger-.html

Separately, Florida which is conducting a probe said it would drop the inquiry if the airline increase seat capacity by 50% at Fort Lauderdale and Orlando airports once merged.


New Jersey concerned about a reduction of service at ACY, Maryland is concerned about BWI.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 13453
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:07 pm

santi319 wrote:
comped wrote:
CRJ200flyer wrote:

I have to clarify these are not slot controlled airports, and increasing seats can mean larger aircraft, which if JetBlue swaps out E190s for some 220s and 321s could rapidly increase total seat count.

Surely the government of Florida cannot be that stupid. They really should not be giving them such an easy target to meet, and even if they are, ignoring the issues that exist capital of airports in terms of the percentage of flights that the combined entity would control. Particularly in Orlando this would be extremely concerning for many...


Why? I don’t get whats the big difference when you have airports like Atlanta, Dallas, Phoenix, Houston, Newark etc and of course Miami, all massive hubs from one airline… why are we are drawing the line now? Thats unfair to be honest.


It's not so much hub market share that the DOJ is looking at... it's reduction in (LCC/ULCC) competition on specific n/s city pairs. The guidlines have been in place for three decades. They are what led to the threat to sue to stop the UA/US merger in 2001, that permitted the DL/NW merger, that permitted the UA/CO merger, and that permitted the AA/US merger with diversitures.

https://www.justice.gov/atr/horizontal- ... horizontal.

If people lack the education in Economics or the specific sub-field of law to understand those guidelines... that's how a.net gets a ~400-post thread with the same thing said over and over again without showing understanding of the law.
 
fastmover
Posts: 1059
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:13 pm

comped wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Separately, Florida which is conducting a probe said it would drop the inquiry if the airline increase seat capacity by 50% at Fort Lauderdale and Orlando airports once merged.

We know they won't. Orlando has the room but surely GOAA can't be terribly happy about increasing JetBlue's control over terminal C any further... Combined the two wood certainly have what I would consider a problematic level of control in terms of slots in the airport, especially when you increase the number of seats by that much.



Uh what slots?
 
fastmover
Posts: 1059
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
santi319 wrote:
comped wrote:
Surely the government of Florida cannot be that stupid. They really should not be giving them such an easy target to meet, and even if they are, ignoring the issues that exist capital of airports in terms of the percentage of flights that the combined entity would control. Particularly in Orlando this would be extremely concerning for many...


Why? I don’t get whats the big difference when you have airports like Atlanta, Dallas, Phoenix, Houston, Newark etc and of course Miami, all massive hubs from one airline… why are we are drawing the line now? Thats unfair to be honest.


It's not so much hub market share that the DOJ is looking at... it's reduction in (LCC/ULCC) competition on specific n/s city pairs. The guidlines have been in place for three decades. They are what led to the threat to sue to stop the UA/US merger in 2001, that permitted the DL/NW merger, that permitted the UA/CO merger, and that permitted the AA/US merger with diversitures.

https://www.justice.gov/atr/horizontal- ... horizontal.

If people lack the education in Economics or the specific sub-field of law to understand those guidelines... that's how a.net gets a ~400-post thread with the same thing said over and over again without showing understanding of the law.



Wait so how were the other airliners allowed to merge? Did they not follow their own guidelines? Tell me about SWA and AirTran as well.
 
fastmover
Posts: 1059
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:18 pm

STT757 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
California, Maryland, New Jersey, and North Carolina join suit to block the B6/NK merger.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/31/califor ... rger-.html

Separately, Florida which is conducting a probe said it would drop the inquiry if the airline increase seat capacity by 50% at Fort Lauderdale and Orlando airports once merged.


New Jersey concerned about a reduction of service at ACY, Maryland is concerned about BWI.



Well anyone can go to ACY right now if they want or BWI
 
KMCOFlyer
Posts: 527
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:32 am

Re: JetBlue/Spirit Merger Discussion - 2023

Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:38 pm

comped wrote:
CRJ200flyer wrote:
comped wrote:
We know they won't. Orlando has the room but surely GOAA can't be terribly happy about increasing JetBlue's control over terminal C any further... Combined the two wood certainly have what I would consider a problematic level of control in terms of slots in the airport, especially when you increase the number of seats by that much.


I have to clarify these are not slot controlled airports, and increasing seats can mean larger aircraft, which if JetBlue swaps out E190s for some 220s and 321s could rapidly increase total seat count.

Surely the government of Florida cannot be that stupid. They really should not be giving them such an easy target to meet, and even if they are, ignoring the issues that exist capital of airports in terms of the percentage of flights that the combined entity would control. Particularly in Orlando this would be extremely concerning for many...


The combined B6 + NK at MCO would barley be larger than WN at MCO. If anything the B6/NK merger/growth at MCO would be good for competition against WN since they will be going head to head on more routes against each other and will lower LCC and legacy fares. I’ve found that since the ULCC have exploded in presence at MCO, WN and the legacies have raised their fares quite a bit from where they use to be since they figured they no longer could compete for the most price sensitive customers since they can’t match what fares the ULCC offer who operates the same routes. As far as ULCC seats offered from MCO, F9, XP, and MX are rapidly expanding at MCO and will have more room to do so in A/B once the merger is complete and NK moves into C with B6.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos