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Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:50 pm

Welcome to the Porter Airlines News and Discussion thread - 2023 edition.

Please continue to post your news and discussions below.

Link to the locked 2022 edition:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1470491
 
Dominion301
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2023

Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:09 am

Kicking off the 2023 thread (still in 2022 in the Americas ;) ), I wonder how long into the new year will PD wait before announcing YWG? I’m guessing second week of January.

I would not be surprised if the Dash 8s find their way to YWG as a tag to the new YOW and/or YTZ route.
 
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IceCream
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2023

Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:54 am

Dominion301 wrote:
Kicking off the 2023 thread (still in 2022 in the Americas ;) ), I wonder how long into the new year will PD wait before announcing YWG? I’m guessing second week of January.

I would not be surprised if the Dash 8s find their way to YWG as a tag to the new YOW and/or YTZ route.

I think it's very likely YWG is announced next, but I don't foresee Dash 8s in YWG (although like most things I'll be proven wrong). I guess PD could launch YQT-YWG or YXE/YQR-YWG to connect onto their YYZ flights but WS has that market covered and I don't really see there being much demand for YXE/YQR-YWG-YYZ. Although sometimes I've wondered if that would've been a good foray to explore expansion in the west.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion Thread - 2023

Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:58 am

IceCream wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Kicking off the 2023 thread (still in 2022 in the Americas ;) ), I wonder how long into the new year will PD wait before announcing YWG? I’m guessing second week of January.

I would not be surprised if the Dash 8s find their way to YWG as a tag to the new YOW and/or YTZ route.

I think it's very likely YWG is announced next, but I don't foresee Dash 8s in YWG (although like most things I'll be proven wrong). I guess PD could launch YQT-YWG or YXE/YQR-YWG to connect onto their YYZ flights but WS has that market covered and I don't really see there being much demand for YXE/YQR-YWG-YYZ. Although sometimes I've wondered if that would've been a good foray to explore expansion in the west.


Oops I missed adding YQT as the tag. YQT-YWG can probably handle two daily DH4s from two different carriers. That’s the only DH4 route I could ever see reaching YWG with same-plane YTZ and/or YOW service.

As for YQR & YXE, no doubt they will be connected to YYZ eventually and probably sometime thereafter to YOW.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sun Jan 01, 2023 8:01 am

No pictures available yet?
 
Jfermeee
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:30 pm

A question for Jimbo737 from last years thread.
How does the e2 compare to an a220 and 737 MAX on cost, say YYZ to YEG…where PD is on the e2 and WO or Lynx or F8 are flying a MAX.

Curious about the concept of trip cost which is argued for by embraer and by extension porter versus the casm. In this example removing the stage length.

In my mind, Porter will argue that they can charge a premium fare to cover their premium casm, or trip cost.
 
drgmobile
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:51 pm

Jfermeee wrote:
A question for Jimbo737 from last years thread.
How does the e2 compare to an a220 and 737 MAX on cost, say YYZ to YEG…where PD is on the e2 and WO or Lynx or F8 are flying a MAX.

Curious about the concept of trip cost which is argued for by embraer and by extension porter versus the casm. In this example removing the stage length.

In my mind, Porter will argue that they can charge a premium fare to cover their premium casm, or trip cost.


It has not at all been their business model to charge higher fares. Fares on Porter are typically lower than Air Canada or WestJet.
 
Jfermeee
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:43 pm

drgmobile wrote:
Jfermeee wrote:
A question for Jimbo737 from last years thread.
How does the e2 compare to an a220 and 737 MAX on cost, say YYZ to YEG…where PD is on the e2 and WO or Lynx or F8 are flying a MAX.

Curious about the concept of trip cost which is argued for by embraer and by extension porter versus the casm. In this example removing the stage length.

In my mind, Porter will argue that they can charge a premium fare to cover their premium casm, or trip cost.


It has not at all been their business model to charge higher fares. Fares on Porter are typically lower than Air Canada or WestJet.


Well they are significantly higher than Lynx or Flair. Fairly certain I saw base fares in the media reports - $350 or so YYZ YEG. That may be below air Canada or west jet. I’m asking about the casm for the e2 versus max on the same route.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:32 pm

If trip cost was the be all, end all, we’d all be flying in Cessna 152’s.

In a commodity business, it’s all about unit costs.

And that means unit costs adjusted for an identical standardized average stage length. It’s pointless to try and compare unit costs between an airline that has an asl of 600 miles to one with 1,100 miles. The longer the asl, the lower the unit costs. You can bet the farm on that.

How much does it cost you to deliver and sell 1 lb of bananas to the local grocery store after accounting for ALL costs, not simply “trip costs”?

Unless you can figure out how to charge a 20% premium for your bananas which happen to be identical to my bananas, you better have significantly lower costs than me if you intend on undercutting me by 20% or more if you plan to be a sustainable business venture.

Sure, you might have a bathtub full of cash, but it will empty out eventually if a liter an hour is draining out and only being replaced by 950 mls an hour from the tap. It’s just a matter of time.

You can’t lose money on every banana and expect to make it up on volume. Many have tried. All have failed.

Neither A220’s or E2 airframes have low unit costs. How do you ascertain that?

When Southwest and Ryanair each order 300 of either type, you can be pretty certain it’s a low cost airframe and appropriate for the business model.

Neither have bothered with either of them. They are niche airframes for niche markets.
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:11 pm

The Pratt & Whitney engines seem to be causing quite a bit of grief for KLM's E195-E2s. Hopefully, this won't affect Porter during its build up.
 
LPL74
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:56 am

jimbo737 wrote:
Neither A220’s or E2 airframes have low unit costs. How do you ascertain that?

When Southwest and Ryanair each order 300 of either type, you can be pretty certain it’s a low cost airframe and appropriate for the business model.

Neither have bothered with either of them. They are niche airframes for niche markets.


I think it’s safe to say that both the E2 and A220 have lower unit costs than the 737-700 and MAX 7. Despite this, Southwest operates 100s of the former, and has orders for the latter.

Their business model is based on a single type fleet, even when other aircraft would be better suited for a particular route.

That model works for them, but it doesn’t mean that everyone else’s business model is wrong.
 
LDRA
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:05 am

jimbo737 wrote:
If trip cost was the be all, end all, we’d all be flying in Cessna 152’s.

In a commodity business, it’s all about unit costs.

And that means unit costs adjusted for an identical standardized average stage length. It’s pointless to try and compare unit costs between an airline that has an asl of 600 miles to one with 1,100 miles. The longer the asl, the lower the unit costs. You can bet the farm on that.

How much does it cost you to deliver and sell 1 lb of bananas to the local grocery store after accounting for ALL costs, not simply “trip costs”?

Unless you can figure out how to charge a 20% premium for your bananas which happen to be identical to my bananas, you better have significantly lower costs than me if you intend on undercutting me by 20% or more if you plan to be a sustainable business venture.

Sure, you might have a bathtub full of cash, but it will empty out eventually if a liter an hour is draining out and only being replaced by 950 mls an hour from the tap. It’s just a matter of time.

You can’t lose money on every banana and expect to make it up on volume. Many have tried. All have failed.

Neither A220’s or E2 airframes have low unit costs. How do you ascertain that?

When Southwest and Ryanair each order 300 of either type, you can be pretty certain it’s a low cost airframe and appropriate for the business model.

Neither have bothered with either of them. They are niche airframes for niche markets.


Maybe Porter got a really good deal on their E2s?
 
jimbo737
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:11 am

Better than the deal O’Leary was offered for 200+ that he walked away from in favor of sticking with 737’s with lower unit costs?

I doubt it.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:15 am

jimbo737 wrote:
If trip cost was the be all, end all, we’d all be flying in Cessna 152’s.

In a commodity business, it’s all about unit costs.

And that means unit costs adjusted for an identical standardized average stage length. It’s pointless to try and compare unit costs between an airline that has an asl of 600 miles to one with 1,100 miles. The longer the asl, the lower the unit costs. You can bet the farm on that.

How much does it cost you to deliver and sell 1 lb of bananas to the local grocery store after accounting for ALL costs, not simply “trip costs”?

Unless you can figure out how to charge a 20% premium for your bananas which happen to be identical to my bananas, you better have significantly lower costs than me if you intend on undercutting me by 20% or more if you plan to be a sustainable business venture.

Sure, you might have a bathtub full of cash, but it will empty out eventually if a liter an hour is draining out and only being replaced by 950 mls an hour from the tap. It’s just a matter of time.

You can’t lose money on every banana and expect to make it up on volume. Many have tried. All have failed.

Neither A220’s or E2 airframes have low unit costs. How do you ascertain that?

When Southwest and Ryanair each order 300 of either type, you can be pretty certain it’s a low cost airframe and appropriate for the business model.

Neither have bothered with either of them. They are niche airframes for niche markets.


To use the supermarket bananas analogy, PD are aiming to be the Metro of the airline world going up against Sobeys (WS) and Loblaws (AC)…the #3, #2 & #1 in the grocery biz size wise in Canada respectively. The “full-service” banners will always sell bananas for 30-50 cents more per kilo than their low cost banners of Food Basics, Freshco and No Frills respectively…which would essentially be Lynx, Swoop (literally as part of the WS Group) & Flair (no point mentioning Jetlines lol). PD are hoping there’s room for a RASM premium for a “higher end” experience for those that want it. In the grocery world that exists even more so with the likes of Whole Foods…akin to AC’s J fare pax.
 
Juju2004
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:21 am

Well said
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:07 am

Dominion301 wrote:
PD are hoping there’s room for a RASM premium for a “higher end” experience for those that want it. In the grocery world that exists even more so with the likes of Whole Foods…akin to AC’s J fare pax.

That’s a good theory, but historically, NO North American carrier has ever been able to garner a higher yield in exchange for an enhanced Economy product. And …. a lot of very capable airlines have tried.

Perhaps it’s an “opening day” sale. But I notice that Porter’s fares are considerably cheaper than AC or WS, not a good start if a premium price is the aim. (But higher than Flair or Swoop). As I said on another thread, I want to try out Porter. In February, I’m flying in Premium Economy on PD, YYZ-YVR for about $470, returning on WS in Premium Economy for about $1000.

I acknowledge the idea of a “per trip” cost and that’s a hard one to quantify. Namely, can Porter carry say 100 passengers on an E195 cheaper than Flair can carry 100 passengers on a Max-8?
 
Dominion301
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:39 am

CrewBunk wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
PD are hoping there’s room for a RASM premium for a “higher end” experience for those that want it. In the grocery world that exists even more so with the likes of Whole Foods…akin to AC’s J fare pax.

That’s a good theory, but historically, NO North American carrier has ever been able to garner a higher yield in exchange for an enhanced Economy product. And …. a lot of very capable airlines have tried.

Perhaps it’s an “opening day” sale. But I notice that Porter’s fares are considerably cheaper than AC or WS, not a good start if a premium price is the aim. (But higher than Flair or Swoop). As I said on another thread, I want to try out Porter. In February, I’m flying in Premium Economy on PD, YYZ-YVR for about $470, returning on WS in Premium Economy for about $1000.

I acknowledge the idea of a “per trip” cost and that’s a hard one to quantify. Namely, can Porter carry say 100 passengers on an E195 cheaper than Flair can carry 100 passengers on a Max-8?


Hey CrewBunk! Nice to hear from you. I guess what I’m trying to say is can PD generate a RASM premium in Y and +Y vs AC & WS while treating the ULCCs as a different customer base like the low cost grocery banners (my 10 years working for Metro’s Ontario predecessor in H.S. & university is shining through…including my a.net name lol). In other words sell fewer low fare bucket seats vs AC & WS as they have fewer seats to fill but they’re essentially the same price as the other two in each fare bucket. No doubt current prices are intro fares. PD’s E95s closest competitors are AC’s 223s & WS’ 73Gs…but evidently a C class vs J class (can WS’ front cabin pass a J?…I guess so given the 2x2 seats).

Time will tell if PD’s jet expansion can succeed. I certainly want PD to succeed. Like you said, PD will almost certainly lose a fraction of the money with 100 seats filled vs 189 on a ULCC MAX trip as the ULCCs to my knowledge don’t carry cargo…I bet PD start carrying cargo within the next two years.
 
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:15 am

CrewBunk wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
PD are hoping there’s room for a RASM premium for a “higher end” experience for those that want it. In the grocery world that exists even more so with the likes of Whole Foods…akin to AC’s J fare pax.

That’s a good theory, but historically, NO North American carrier has ever been able to garner a higher yield in exchange for an enhanced Economy product. And …. a lot of very capable airlines have tried.

Perhaps it’s an “opening day” sale. But I notice that Porter’s fares are considerably cheaper than AC or WS, not a good start if a premium price is the aim. (But higher than Flair or Swoop). As I said on another thread, I want to try out Porter. In February, I’m flying in Premium Economy on PD, YYZ-YVR for about $470, returning on WS in Premium Economy for about $1000.

I acknowledge the idea of a “per trip” cost and that’s a hard one to quantify. Namely, can Porter carry say 100 passengers on an E195 cheaper than Flair can carry 100 passengers on a Max-8?


The per trip costs are obviously significantly lower on a E195E2 vs a MAX8. Otherwise everyone would just buy MAX8's and fly around lots of empty seats most of the time. If Porter can get good load factors on their E195E2's they should do well vs. Air Canada and WestJet if these 2 competitors load factors are poor on competing routes. Air Canada must be the highest cost and most unnecessarily complex airline in North America.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:19 am

Provided Porter can generate the yield premium necessary to cover their higher casm.

That’s not an easy task for a new entrant.

Indeed, the opposite is generally case.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:22 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Provided Porter can generate the yield premium necessary to cover their higher casm.

That’s not an easy task for a new entrant.

Indeed, the opposite is generally case.


True but a not insignificant portion of Porter E95 fliers will come from PD’s existing Dash 8 customer base and know what to expect from them…and spread their reputation out west by word-of-mouth. It’s highly likely their POS for western Canada flights will be heavily provided by easterners.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:31 pm

Jetport wrote:
The per trip costs are obviously significantly lower on a E195E2 vs a MAX8. Otherwise everyone would just buy MAX8's and fly around lots of empty seats most of the time.

It might not be as “obvious” as you think. Look at Max sales vs. E2-195 sales. Not to mention, when AC was flying both the Max-8 and the E190, the “trip cost” of the Max was cheaper, including fuel!

Granted, the E2-195 is considerably more fuel efficient than the E-190, but …. how much? Say 20%? It’s also carrying more than 20% less passengers than an all Y Max.

If Porter can get good load factors on their E195E2's they should do well vs. Air Canada and WestJet if these 2 competitors load factors are poor on competing routes.

Well, der. Do you really think that’s going to happen? That PD is going to have higher load factors than either WS or AC? But it really goes back to yield. I recall reading the cost/yield analysis comparing an AC flight to a Flair flight. The revenue from the 16J seats on AC was more than Flair’s entire load.

Air Canada must be the highest cost and most unnecessarily complex airline in North America.

Perhaps, but (pre-Covid) they were extremely profitable.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:34 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
True but a not insignificant portion of Porter E95 fliers will come from PD’s existing Dash 8 customer base and know what to expect from them…and spread their reputation out west by word-of-mouth. It’s highly likely their POS for western Canada flights will be heavily provided by easterners.

I think they are banking on that. Porter has a very good reputation in the east. Get enough “Westerners” on their flights with cheap fares and that will spread to the west.

It becomes a race though. Will that reputation spread before they run out of cash?
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:13 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
Granted, the E2-195 is considerably more fuel efficient than the E-190, but …. how much? Say 20%? It’s also carrying more than 20% less passengers than an all Y Max.



https://simpleflying.com/azul-e195-e2-oneyear/

19% lower trip costs than E190 with 32 more seats, in the Azul case.
 
drgmobile
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:50 pm

Jfermeee wrote:
drgmobile wrote:
Jfermeee wrote:
A question for Jimbo737 from last years thread.
How does the e2 compare to an a220 and 737 MAX on cost, say YYZ to YEG…where PD is on the e2 and WO or Lynx or F8 are flying a MAX.

Curious about the concept of trip cost which is argued for by embraer and by extension porter versus the casm. In this example removing the stage length.

In my mind, Porter will argue that they can charge a premium fare to cover their premium casm, or trip cost.


It has not at all been their business model to charge higher fares. Fares on Porter are typically lower than Air Canada or WestJet.


Well they are significantly higher than Lynx or Flair. Fairly certain I saw base fares in the media reports - $350 or so YYZ YEG. That may be below air Canada or west jet. I’m asking about the casm for the e2 versus max on the same route.


Porter has never tried to be an ultra low cost carrier, which is what Flair and Lynx are. They are competing as a value carrier-- not an ultra low cost carrier, but not a premium carrier either. A Porter passenger gets a good quality Economy class service, traditionally comparable to what you would expect on WestJet or AC, if not slightly better, but generally at the same or lower fare.

Here is how they describe themselves:

"Porter Airlines is committed to effortless travel, onboard service, and amenities that enhance your journey, all delivered in style and comfort...Porter Airlines revolutionized short-haul flying in 2006 with a commitment to speed, convenience and service. Effortless travel, genuine hospitality, and amenities that enhance the traveller’s journey, are all delivered in style and comfort."
https://www.flyporter.com/en-ca/about-porter/who-we-are

"Flair Airlines is Canada’s leading independent ultra-low-cost carrier (ULCC) and is trailblazing with an ambitious, rapid expansion to disrupt the monopolistic practices of Canadian airlines."
https://flyflair.com/about-us

"Lynx is redefining what it means to be an ultra low-cost carrier. Enjoy ultra low prices, no hidden fees and friendly service everywhere we fly."
https://www.flylynx.com/en/whoweare
 
Acey
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:54 pm

Jetport wrote:
Otherwise everyone would just buy MAX8's and fly around lots of empty seats most of the time.


In the case of Flair's entire transborder network as per publicly available numbers, and in the case of a lot Lynx flights based on anecdotal evidence, this is literally what's happening in this country.

If the E195-E2 had such insanely amazing costs, it'd be selling more... no? Genuine inquiry.

drgmobile wrote:
They are competing as a value carrier-- not an ultra low cost carrier, but not a premium carrier either.


If I were to consider booking a YYZ-YEG fare in April, there is no difference. Porter's base fare matches the others, and they similarly allow no carryon bag with their base fare.
 
KarlB737
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:06 pm

Forum members what service could Porter add out of YQG-Windsor? How about a jet flight from Windsor to Montreal as an example.

YQG Web Site:

https://flyyqg.ca/
 
Acey
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:16 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
Forum members what service could Porter add out of YQG-Windsor? How about a jet flight from Windsor to Montreal as an example.

My first thought is that YQG-YUL, if attempted, would be better suited for their Q400 aircraft.
 
jumbojettony
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:22 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
Forum members what service could Porter add out of YQG-Windsor? How about a jet flight from Windsor to Montreal as an example.

YQG Web Site:

https://flyyqg.ca/


Technically the Yqg-yul is already offered but as a through flight at Ytz. So you just stay onboard at ytz for the 30 minute stop. Not sure if the demand is there for a direct but if so I would imagine it would be a Q route.
 
drgmobile
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:03 pm

Acey wrote:
Jetport wrote:
Otherwise everyone would just buy MAX8's and fly around lots of empty seats most of the time.


In the case of Flair's entire transborder network as per publicly available numbers, and in the case of a lot Lynx flights based on anecdotal evidence, this is literally what's happening in this country.

If the E195-E2 had such insanely amazing costs, it'd be selling more... no? Genuine inquiry.

drgmobile wrote:
They are competing as a value carrier-- not an ultra low cost carrier, but not a premium carrier either.


If I were to consider booking a YYZ-YEG fare in April, there is no difference. Porter's base fare matches the others, and they similarly allow no carryon bag with their base fare.


I'm basing my assessment on 16 years of flying AC and Porter in central Canada. They offer a similar, if slightly better flight experience, that is typically about the same cost or often a bit cheaper than Air Canada.

And the appropriate fare categories for comparison with mainline carriers are the "Standard" fares and above, which include a carry on and allow for changes for a fee (or fully refundable, at the "Freedom" category). I would never consider or recommend a fare category with any airline that didn't allow for changes with a fee. It's like financial Russian roulette.
 
Juju2004
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:04 pm

Acey wrote:
My first thought is that YQG-YUL, if attempted, would be better suited for their Q400 aircraft.


Indeed, Flair load factors are proving the route can't really sustain a 737.
 
AWNP
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:38 pm

Jungleneer wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
Granted, the E2-195 is considerably more fuel efficient than the E-190, but …. how much? Say 20%? It’s also carrying more than 20% less passengers than an all Y Max.



https://simpleflying.com/azul-e195-e2-oneyear/

19% lower trip costs than E190 with 32 more seats, in the Azul case.


19% lower FUEL cost, not trip cost.

The rest of the trip costs would be virtually the same - lower maintenance offset by higher ownership (in general) and some costs like airport fees and NAV higher with a higher MTOW. The additional seats would help the CASM more than fuel would, but I would assume the trip cost would be in the 6-8% lower range than the E-190.
 
Jfermeee
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:42 pm

Juju2004 wrote:
Acey wrote:
My first thought is that YQG-YUL, if attempted, would be better suited for their Q400 aircraft.


Indeed, Flair load factors are proving the route can't really sustain a 737.


Oh is there a source in Canada for load factors? I'm in the states have no idea.
 
Acey
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:20 pm

Jfermeee wrote:
Juju2004 wrote:
Acey wrote:
My first thought is that YQG-YUL, if attempted, would be better suited for their Q400 aircraft.


Indeed, Flair load factors are proving the route can't really sustain a 737.


Oh is there a source in Canada for load factors? I'm in the states have no idea.

2 big Canadian startups trying to rock all 7M8 fleets. One is selling airplanes, the other has only 6 frames and very low utilization presently. The publicly available data for Flair's transborder load factors come from your country - they're DOT numbers. Flair is in the ~40% LF ballpark.

AWNP wrote:
I would assume the trip cost would be in the 6-8% lower range than the E-190.

Just as a point of comparison, I recall in the Air Canada some time ago someone got block fuels for similar trips on an E190 vs 7M8 and they were either on par or E190 barely had an advantage.... and that's total block fuel and not fuel per seat or other similar metric. Pretty wild indicator of how bad E190 is, how good 7M8 is, or a bit of both.

I believe E190-E2 is stated as ~17% better burn than the E190.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 3377
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:42 pm

Acey wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
Forum members what service could Porter add out of YQG-Windsor? How about a jet flight from Windsor to Montreal as an example.

My first thought is that YQG-YUL, if attempted, would be better suited for their Q400 aircraft.


If Porter’s history and recent expansion is any indicator, YQG-YOW would happen before YQG-YUL. Definitely a Dash 8 route. Unless PD acquire more DH4s there’s a limit as to how much additional Dash flying they can add. There’s likely slack/room for a bit more DH4 expansion, even after the four new YOW routes, but probably not much.
 
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IceCream
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:21 am

Dominion301 wrote:
Acey wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
Forum members what service could Porter add out of YQG-Windsor? How about a jet flight from Windsor to Montreal as an example.

My first thought is that YQG-YUL, if attempted, would be better suited for their Q400 aircraft.


If Porter’s history and recent expansion is any indicator, YQG-YOW would happen before YQG-YUL. Definitely a Dash 8 route. Unless PD acquire more DH4s there’s a limit as to how much additional Dash flying they can add. There’s likely slack/room for a bit more DH4 expansion, even after the four new YOW routes, but probably not much.

YQG-YOW is definitely more likely. PD talked about building up YHZ/YUL has bases as well but for now it seems like YYZ and YOW are getting all the action.
 
yyztpa2
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:06 am

Acey wrote:
2 big Canadian startups trying to rock all 7M8 fleets. One is selling airplanes,

Which Canadian airline is selling Max 8s?
 
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IceCream
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:19 am

yyztpa2 wrote:
Acey wrote:
2 big Canadian startups trying to rock all 7M8 fleets. One is selling airplanes,

Which Canadian airline is selling Max 8s?

Flair
 
yyztpa2
Posts: 447
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:30 pm

Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:32 pm

IceCream wrote:
yyztpa2 wrote:
Acey wrote:
2 big Canadian startups trying to rock all 7M8 fleets. One is selling airplanes,

Which Canadian airline is selling Max 8s?

Flair

I thought their fleet was leased. Do they outright own any?
 
Dominion301
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:37 am

IceCream wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Acey wrote:
My first thought is that YQG-YUL, if attempted, would be better suited for their Q400 aircraft.


If Porter’s history and recent expansion is any indicator, YQG-YOW would happen before YQG-YUL. Definitely a Dash 8 route. Unless PD acquire more DH4s there’s a limit as to how much additional Dash flying they can add. There’s likely slack/room for a bit more DH4 expansion, even after the four new YOW routes, but probably not much.

YQG-YOW is definitely more likely. PD talked about building up YHZ/YUL has bases as well but for now it seems like YYZ and YOW are getting all the action.


One way to add a bit more DH4 slack down the road would be to convert YHZ-YOW and YHZ-YUL partially to jets. The YHZ-YTZ thru pax are now less important given the YHZ-YTZ nonstops that now exist.
 
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IceCream
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:59 am

Dominion301 wrote:
IceCream wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

If Porter’s history and recent expansion is any indicator, YQG-YOW would happen before YQG-YUL. Definitely a Dash 8 route. Unless PD acquire more DH4s there’s a limit as to how much additional Dash flying they can add. There’s likely slack/room for a bit more DH4 expansion, even after the four new YOW routes, but probably not much.

YQG-YOW is definitely more likely. PD talked about building up YHZ/YUL has bases as well but for now it seems like YYZ and YOW are getting all the action.


One way to add a bit more DH4 slack down the road would be to convert YHZ-YOW and YHZ-YUL partially to jets. The YHZ-YTZ thru pax are now less important given the YHZ-YTZ nonstops that now exist.

I could see YQG and maybe one of YTS/YAM/YSB added to YOW and the routes you mentioned being upgauged to jets.

yyztpa2 wrote:
I thought their fleet was leased. Do they outright own any?
I could be wrong but I believe they're leasing them from 777 partners, but the planes painted in their livery, with their configuration are now being sold by 777 partners.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:36 am

IceCream wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
IceCream wrote:
YQG-YOW is definitely more likely. PD talked about building up YHZ/YUL has bases as well but for now it seems like YYZ and YOW are getting all the action.


One way to add a bit more DH4 slack down the road would be to convert YHZ-YOW and YHZ-YUL partially to jets. The YHZ-YTZ thru pax are now less important given the YHZ-YTZ nonstops that now exist.

I could see YQG and maybe one of YTS/YAM/YSB added to YOW and the routes you mentioned being upgauged to jets.

yyztpa2 wrote:
I thought their fleet was leased. Do they outright own any?
I could be wrong but I believe they're leasing them from 777 partners, but the planes painted in their livery, with their configuration are now being sold by 777 partners.


YOW-YSB had service for decades until Bearskin vacated Southern Ontario. I could see that one too down the road. Ironically as I recall, JV cited PD’s competition and driving down fares on the city pair as the primary reasons for their withdrawal. They couldn’t get the same level of $309-$500 one-way fares anymore.

For YAM & YTS, possibly given I doubt PD will ever send the Dashes to YYZ. A daily YOW-YTS/YAM/YSB/YQG would open up a future pile of new connection options not available at YTZ without a YTZ shuttle & UP Express trudge. YTS-YOW-YVR is only marginally further than YTS-YYZ-YVR on AC.

I could also see YSJ-YOW-YTZ returning eventually once there’s several YOW-west nonstop connections available.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:35 am

I personally don't understand why St.Catherines/Niagra Falls/Ft.Erie don't have any airline service at all. There must be around ~400k population there no? Do they all drive to YYZ?
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:40 am

Dominion301 wrote:
IceCream wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

One way to add a bit more DH4 slack down the road would be to convert YHZ-YOW and YHZ-YUL partially to jets. The YHZ-YTZ thru pax are now less important given the YHZ-YTZ nonstops that now exist.

I could see YQG and maybe one of YTS/YAM/YSB added to YOW and the routes you mentioned being upgauged to jets.

yyztpa2 wrote:
I thought their fleet was leased. Do they outright own any?
I could be wrong but I believe they're leasing them from 777 partners, but the planes painted in their livery, with their configuration are now being sold by 777 partners.


YOW-YSB had service for decades until Bearskin vacated Southern Ontario. I could see that one too down the road. Ironically as I recall, JV cited PD’s competition and driving down fares on the city pair as the primary reasons for their withdrawal. They couldn’t get the same level of $309-$500 one-way fares anymore.

For YAM & YTS, possibly given I doubt PD will ever send the Dashes to YYZ. A daily YOW-YTS/YAM/YSB/YQG would open up a future pile of new connection options not available at YTZ without a YTZ shuttle & UP Express trudge. YTS-YOW-YVR is only marginally further than YTS-YYZ-YVR on AC.

I could also see YSJ-YOW-YTZ returning eventually once there’s several YOW-west nonstop connections available.


Sorry but none of those markets/options offers any sort of growth beyond what AC/Jazz already covers I suspect. All those secondary cities are declining in population as far as I know.
 
yyztpa2
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:41 am

Skywatcher wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
IceCream wrote:
I could see YQG and maybe one of YTS/YAM/YSB added to YOW and the routes you mentioned being upgauged to jets.

I could be wrong but I believe they're leasing them from 777 partners, but the planes painted in their livery, with their configuration are now being sold by 777 partners.


YOW-YSB had service for decades until Bearskin vacated Southern Ontario. I could see that one too down the road. Ironically as I recall, JV cited PD’s competition and driving down fares on the city pair as the primary reasons for their withdrawal. They couldn’t get the same level of $309-$500 one-way fares anymore.

For YAM & YTS, possibly given I doubt PD will ever send the Dashes to YYZ. A daily YOW-YTS/YAM/YSB/YQG would open up a future pile of new connection options not available at YTZ without a YTZ shuttle & UP Express trudge. YTS-YOW-YVR is only marginally further than YTS-YYZ-YVR on AC.

I could also see YSJ-YOW-YTZ returning eventually once there’s several YOW-west nonstop connections available.


Sorry but none of those markets/options offers any sort of growth beyond what AC/Jazz already covers I suspect. All those secondary cities are declining in population as far as I know.

Not long ago, YSB to YTO(YYZ/YTZ) supported up to 13 daily round trips between AC/WS/PD. Today, with a growing population in YSB, you're lucky to get 3 a day with airlines seemingly to defer to the highway while charging exorbitant fares for those who want to fly.

It's not like everyone in NE Ontario wants to end up in Toronto and I don't think it's a demand issue. I think it's a lack of suitable aircraft to meet the demand. AC Jazz cut a big part of their fleet during COVID.

By reducing flight options, they have been reducing connection options from other locations in US and Canada and further exasperate the lack of stimulation problem by driving more people to their cars to get to YYZ.... which is not a great option in the winter when facing 5-7 hour drives. My review of options shows that to reach YSB from Florida now frequently is a +24 hour overnight connection in YYZ and as soon as weather turns bad, the YYZ-YSB leg gets cut.

Options for NE Ontario that support a potential N America hub other than YYZ might turn out to be a welcomed option. .
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 815
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Jan 07, 2023 7:36 am

jumbojettony wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
Forum members what service could Porter add out of YQG-Windsor? How about a jet flight from Windsor to Montreal as an example.

YQG Web Site:

https://flyyqg.ca/


Technically the Yqg-yul is already offered but as a through flight at Ytz. So you just stay onboard at ytz for the 30 minute stop. Not sure if the demand is there for a direct but if so I would imagine it would be a Q route.

The flight you described is already a direct flight. You mean nonstop.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Jan 07, 2023 8:02 am

CrewBunk wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
PD are hoping there’s room for a RASM premium for a “higher end” experience for those that want it. In the grocery world that exists even more so with the likes of Whole Foods…akin to AC’s J fare pax.

That’s a good theory, but historically, NO North American carrier has ever been able to garner a higher yield in exchange for an enhanced Economy product. And …. a lot of very capable airlines have tried.

Perhaps it’s an “opening day” sale. But I notice that Porter’s fares are considerably cheaper than AC or WS, not a good start if a premium price is the aim. (But higher than Flair or Swoop). As I said on another thread, I want to try out Porter. In February, I’m flying in Premium Economy on PD, YYZ-YVR for about $470, returning on WS in Premium Economy for about $1000.

I acknowledge the idea of a “per trip” cost and that’s a hard one to quantify. Namely, can Porter carry say 100 passengers on an E195 cheaper than Flair can carry 100 passengers on a Max-8?

This is all a matter of perspective. AS,AA,AC,DL, UA,WN,B6... all offer an "enhanced" economy product compared to F9, G4, NK etc...for a base fare premium.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:22 pm

yyztpa2 wrote:
By reducing flight options, they have been reducing connection options from other locations in US and Canada and further exasperate the lack of stimulation problem by driving more people to their cars to get to YYZ.... which is not a great option in the winter when facing 5-7 hour drives. My review of options shows that to reach YSB from Florida now frequently is a +24 hour overnight connection in YYZ and as soon as weather turns bad, the YYZ-YSB leg gets cut.

Options for NE Ontario that support a potential N America hub other than YYZ might turn out to be a welcomed option. .


Sensible people in St Catherines aren't driving to YYZ to get to Florida.... they're driving to Buffalo to avoid a lot of the Canadian and U.S. Customs taxes and getting n/s to a variety of Florida destinations. Just as people in Windsor and London drive to DTW to get to Florida. Passengers will play tax arbitrage (and airline competition and frequency) all day.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 3377
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:23 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
IceCream wrote:
I could see YQG and maybe one of YTS/YAM/YSB added to YOW and the routes you mentioned being upgauged to jets.

I could be wrong but I believe they're leasing them from 777 partners, but the planes painted in their livery, with their configuration are now being sold by 777 partners.


YOW-YSB had service for decades until Bearskin vacated Southern Ontario. I could see that one too down the road. Ironically as I recall, JV cited PD’s competition and driving down fares on the city pair as the primary reasons for their withdrawal. They couldn’t get the same level of $309-$500 one-way fares anymore.

For YAM & YTS, possibly given I doubt PD will ever send the Dashes to YYZ. A daily YOW-YTS/YAM/YSB/YQG would open up a future pile of new connection options not available at YTZ without a YTZ shuttle & UP Express trudge. YTS-YOW-YVR is only marginally further than YTS-YYZ-YVR on AC.

I could also see YSJ-YOW-YTZ returning eventually once there’s several YOW-west nonstop connections available.


Sorry but none of those markets/options offers any sort of growth beyond what AC/Jazz already covers I suspect. All those secondary cities are declining in population as far as I know.


Out of the five secondary cities listed only YTS and YAM saw population declines and in both those cases the rate of decline slowed significantly meaning they very well may have stopped declining by now.

What Porter offers those markets is completion to AC beyond the regional reach of YTZ. Thunder Bay’s population has been stagnant for 40 years yet pre-pandemic traffic at YQT was booming thanks to all the competition. Porter’s not launching YQT-YOW twice daily just for the O&D traffic as that’s only enough to fill 1 of the 2 DH4s. They will be increasingly selling YOW connections be it haphazardly as a focus city or as a deliberately banked hub (time will tell which one happens) in the years ahead.
 
yyztpa2
Posts: 447
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:45 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

YOW-YSB had service for decades until Bearskin vacated Southern Ontario. I could see that one too down the road. Ironically as I recall, JV cited PD’s competition and driving down fares on the city pair as the primary reasons for their withdrawal. They couldn’t get the same level of $309-$500 one-way fares anymore.

For YAM & YTS, possibly given I doubt PD will ever send the Dashes to YYZ. A daily YOW-YTS/YAM/YSB/YQG would open up a future pile of new connection options not available at YTZ without a YTZ shuttle & UP Express trudge. YTS-YOW-YVR is only marginally further than YTS-YYZ-YVR on AC.

I could also see YSJ-YOW-YTZ returning eventually once there’s several YOW-west nonstop connections available.


Sorry but none of those markets/options offers any sort of growth beyond what AC/Jazz already covers I suspect. All those secondary cities are declining in population as far as I know.


Out of the five secondary cities listed only YTS and YAM saw population declines and in both those cases the rate of decline slowed significantly meaning they very well may have stopped declining by now.

What Porter offers those markets is completion to AC beyond the regional reach of YTZ. Thunder Bay’s population has been stagnant for 40 years yet pre-pandemic traffic at YQT was booming thanks to all the competition. Porter’s not launching YQT-YOW twice daily just for the O&D traffic as that’s only enough to fill 1 of the 2 DH4s. They will be increasingly selling YOW connections be it haphazardly as a focus city or as a deliberately banked hub (time will tell which one happens) in the years ahead.


Service is being cut to many parts of Canada - Saskatchewan, N Ontario, East Coast - with frequency and hub destinations restricted by lack of a suitable fleet. These same markets do not have viable ground alternatives for the distances to be covered. AC had to be 'convinced' by the Fed Gov to keep a minimal flight to YYB. Perhaps the E2 can help. The E2-175 might have been the ideal plane for Porter to serve a distributed market like Canda from a hub such as YOW but that launch is doubtful without large US orders which are now blocked by scope.
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: Porter Airlines News and Discussion - 2023

Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:35 pm

Additional details on the catering and entertainment set up have been released.

Looks the part. Certainly in keeping with the "best economy experience ever" they're selling.

https://worldairlinenews.com/2023/01/13/porter-airlines-unveils-premium-onboard-catering-and-entertainment-partners/

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