CrewBunk wrote:

I recently conducted by own (purely anecdotal) experiment. I flew YYZ-YVR this week in Porter Reserve and returned the next day flying Westjet Premium. Two products I had never before tried.

The Porter fare was $460. It was a promotional fare, I understand it is now about the same as Westjet, which is about $900.

I went with a very open mind, but I did see a very big difference. Porter felt like “very good Economy” where Westjet felt like Air Canada’s Business Class.

I found nothing wrong with the E195. It wasn’t claustrophobic or whatever people are saying. But its 18” wide seats are the same as Y, not just on the E195, but the same as AC’s A320/330 and an inch narrower than the A220. The 21” wide 737 WS seats are much more comfortable.

The WS meals were presented like normal Business Class meals. PD meals were served in paper tubs with plastic cutlery, no tray. PD served my sparkling water in a paper cup, WS in a glass tumbler. I don’t drink alcohol, but I understand had I ordered beer or wine on PD, it would have been in a glass.

I found one irritant though. On my aisle seat in row three on Porter, there was a lineup to the forward lav for most of the flight. Not so in Westjet’s separate Premium cabin.

I think if I were a higher end customer, I’d prefer WS over PD. But for basic Economy, PS provides a better Economy experience.

CrewBunk, just wondering what meal you had and how would you rate it for taste? PD are definitely going to great lengths to advertise on the radio that they're still 'all-economy'. But the front of the cabin is definitely sounds like a nice +Y experience. You're correct that all alcohol on PD is served in glassware.

Dominion301 wrote:

CrewBunk, just wondering what meal you had and how would you rate it for taste? PD are definitely going to great lengths to advertise on the radio that they're still 'all-economy'. But the front of the cabin is definitely sounds like a nice +Y experience. You're correct that all alcohol on PD is served in glassware.

I’m not sure what their official menu title was, but it was a Salmon Salad type meal, served in a paper tub, with a roll and plastic cutlery. It was very good. But not really a “meal”. When I asked if I could try more, I was told they had nothing left. (I’d guess the flight was about a third full).

I’m not sure of their target market, but in future, I would think buying a seat somewhere further back, maybe with greater legroom would be better “value”. All passengers are offered free wifi, beer and wine, regardless of fare purchased.

These tub meals can be purchased. Each was about $8. They reminded me of Air Canada’s new BOB menu of “higher end” selections.

All in all, it was a very pleasant flight. But, my (just my opinion) take though, is that Porter Reserve is very good Economy where WestJet Premium at what is now about the same price is more like Business Class with a Premium Economy meal.

I’m not a big guy. About 200 lbs, 32” waist, 50” chest. I really appreciated the greater room of Westjet’s 737.

CrewBunk wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

All in all, it was a very pleasant flight. But, my (just my opinion) take though, is that Porter Reserve is very good Economy where WestJet Premium at what is now about the same price is more like Business Class with a Premium Economy meal.

My research shows that throughout most of the year, Porter Reserve on YYZ-YVR one way is in the 460 dollar range while WestJet's premium class is consitantly above 1000 dollars so I wouldn't say they are anywhere near the same price.

lostsound wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

All in all, it was a very pleasant flight. But, my (just my opinion) take though, is that Porter Reserve is very good Economy where WestJet Premium at what is now about the same price is more like Business Class with a Premium Economy meal.

My research shows that throughout most of the year, Porter Reserve on YYZ-YVR one way is in the 460 dollar range while WestJet's premium class is consitantly above 1000 dollars so I wouldn't say they are anywhere near the same price.

You are correct. When I booked my flight, the $460 was a promotional fare. During the summer though, it was about the same as Westjet at around $950. When I look now, I see it is now $488 across the whole summer. Not a good sign.

CrewBunk wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

CrewBunk, just wondering what meal you had and how would you rate it for taste? PD are definitely going to great lengths to advertise on the radio that they're still 'all-economy'. But the front of the cabin is definitely sounds like a nice +Y experience. You're correct that all alcohol on PD is served in glassware.

I’m not sure what their official menu title was, but it was a Salmon Salad type meal, served in a paper tub, with a roll and plastic cutlery. It was very good. But not really a “meal”. When I asked if I could try more, I was told they had nothing left. (I’d guess the flight was about a third full).

I’m not sure of their target market, but in future, I would think buying a seat somewhere further back, maybe with greater legroom would be better “value”. All passengers are offered free wifi, beer and wine, regardless of fare purchased.

These tub meals can be purchased. Each was about $8. They reminded me of Air Canada’s new BOB menu of “higher end” selections.

All in all, it was a very pleasant flight. But, my (just my opinion) take though, is that Porter Reserve is very good Economy where WestJet Premium at what is now about the same price is more like Business Class with a Premium Economy meal.

I’m not a big guy. About 200 lbs, 32” waist, 50” chest. I really appreciated the greater room of Westjet’s 737.

I flew them the other day in a Porter Stretch seat on a short hop and definitely would pay extra for that seat for any flight over 2hrs. I was speaking with the cabin crew and their buy on board service isn't up and running yet apparently so maybe that is why you weren't allowed more food. Also the longer flights are supposed to be offering pre-mixed alcoholic beverages that are buy onboard. Overall enjoyed it too and didn't feel nearly as cramped as the videos suggest.

drgmobile wrote:

I really don't understand why people think Porter is primarily targeting leisure travellers.

I don't disagree with your assessment of their YTZ operation and that convenience that serves for business travelers, but given Porter's all-economy E2 fares and the existence of actual business class on YYC-YYZ and YVR-YYZ, I don't know what conclusion one should draw other than Porter targeting leisure travelers. Business travelers will not be flocking in droves from the front cabin of Dreamliners to fly at the front of a regional jet.

It's fair to say, therefore, that Porter is targeting leisure travelers willing to pay for a better economy product and this appears to be a distinctly different target than what one might say the target is for the existing Q400 operation.

CrewBunk wrote:

drgmobile wrote:

One of the reasons WestJet is scaling back its operations in eastern Canada is because of the new competition it is facing; it's retrenching where it is strong, in the west. Porter is strong in central Canada. The competitive environment for WestJet and Porter change entirely were they to be working together rather than competing.

Oh I agree. The whole “buy the competition to eliminate a competitor” thing. But Westjet was “losing” in eastern Canada long before Porter became a reality.

But, I can’t help but think that the best airline to face Air Canada in eastern Canada would have been Westjet, yet they couldn’t. Why would doing exactly the same thing with E195s be any better? I would suggest that with the economies of scale, Westjet’s 737-700 would be cheaper to run than the E195.

I consider Westjet’s reputation as good as or better than Porter.

You lack knowledge on aircraft economics.
The E2 has a much lower cost per trip and per seat than the B73G.

SA280 wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

drgmobile wrote:

One of the reasons WestJet is scaling back its operations in eastern Canada is because of the new competition it is facing; it's retrenching where it is strong, in the west. Porter is strong in central Canada. The competitive environment for WestJet and Porter change entirely were they to be working together rather than competing.

Oh I agree. The whole “buy the competition to eliminate a competitor” thing. But Westjet was “losing” in eastern Canada long before Porter became a reality.

But, I can’t help but think that the best airline to face Air Canada in eastern Canada would have been Westjet, yet they couldn’t. Why would doing exactly the same thing with E195s be any better? I would suggest that with the economies of scale, Westjet’s 737-700 would be cheaper to run than the E195.

I consider Westjet’s reputation as good as or better than Porter.

You lack knowledge on aircraft economics.
The E2 has a much lower cost per trip and per seat than the B73G.

I believe @CrewBunk was referring to " economies of scale ", not trip costs of specific aircraft types? Those would be two very different things.

9252fly wrote:

I believe @CrewBunk was referring to " economies of scale ", not trip costs of specific aircraft types? Those would be two very different things.

That’s correct. I was suggesting that if Westjet saw the need for a fleet of 130 seat aircraft to fly in eastern Canada, they could do it cheaper flying their own 737-700s as a part of a much larger 737 fleet, keeping a common type. Likely cheaper than introducing a new type flying the same 130 seats or acquiring a complete airline to do it.

In other words, why does Southwest fly 737-700s and not A220s or E195s!

Also probably fair to assume the 41 frames WS has of the 73G are mostly paid for and/or leased at favourable terms with infrastructure in place vs PD starting a jet operation from the ground up.

drgmobile wrote:

I really don't understand why people think Porter is primarily targeting leisure travellers. If they were, why would they have begun with high frequency service to Ottawa and Montreal. Folks from Ottawa heading to Toronto to go shopping on a Tuesday? Hardly the basis around which to build a business. Porter has enjoyed strong support from business travellers from the outset. There may not be a lot of Air Canada Super Elites on the plane, but there are many many business travellers who don't travel often enough to reach those levels in a loyalty program, or who appreciate the convenience of landing in downtown Toronto.Their U.S. markets are Boston, Washington, New York and Chicago. Their U.S. leisure destinations have been few and mostly airports with a track record of subsidizing services. The office I ran for 11 years is filled with people who mostly fly Air Canada, but will look to Porter for downtown Toronto or when there are better fares/options on Porter. In all that time, I flew WestJet twice, and I don't know that I ever reviewed an expense report with a WestJet ticket on it.

Because the product just isn't designed that way. And Porter says so itself. The objective is to provide a decent economy class experience. Now as I said upthread, that doesn't mean it's not going to work for some business travellers, especially on shorter segments. It's still a very nice product. If you're flying YTZ-YOW, you won't care not having access to a lounge for example because the convenience of YTZ and Porter's onboard experience trump that. Not so on YYZ-YVR. The longer the flight, the more a true business class offering is going to make a difference. So yes, business travellers are not the primary target.

.[/quote]
You lack knowledge on aircraft economics.
The E2 has a much lower cost per trip and per seat than the B73G.[/quote]

Trip cost? Yes.

Unit cost? Not even close.

If trip costs were important, Porter should have bought a fleet of King Airs.

If it’s all about trip costs, Ryanair and Southwest would have orders in for 750 E2’s each.

It’s all about who has the lowest casm adjusted to a standardized asl.

The -800 and Max’s blow away the E2.

And for the record, the 210 seat Max 10 will blow away the -800 and Max 8’s.

It’s going to be a bloodbath for Porter and a few others over the next 6 months as they jockey to get their share of table scraps as they concurrently flood the market with capacity chasing spill traffic.

Add the $150m +/- that Porter’s going to have to come up with to resolve their lawsuit with YTZ’s owners and Porter has a major uphill battle ahead that’s going to require a ton of cash.

If anyone thinks Porter is going to be able to profitably operate within the eastern triangle out of YYZ, they are delusional.

Without the massive network AC operates out of both YYZ and increasingly YUL, and the power of Aeroplan, even AC’s standalone triangle ops are marginal.

WS has / had a 20 year head start building a substantial North American / sun network with a little Europe added for good measure, took a hard look with fresh eyes at the P&L and walked.

Porter thinks they’ve got this figured out?

Good luck. They’ll need it. That and about $100m a year to underwrite the losses.

lostsound wrote:

runway23 wrote:

drgmobile wrote:

I would agree the WS has better brand recognition country wide, but they are torpedoing their brand in the East by revoking the majority of their services in areas where the Porter brand is of equal strength. Furthermore Porter's product I'd argue is better with free alcoholic/fizzy beverages and free wifi for all with the same amount of personal space.

Agree with this completely. Tried to book YOW-YYT for this summer and it's not even for sale. YYT behaves like a like a city of a million in the summer months and WS doesn't even think it's worth offering a connection. After all the service starts and stops over the years to eastern destinations, I do wonder if WS has near permanently killed their chances of building trust with those pax again. Of course people are fickle and will swear one way then change their mind the next, but this just makes my head shake that you can't fly out of YOW this summer unless going west essentially.

After 20 years+ of data, and some fresh eyes not impaired by the “beyond revenue” arguments, perhaps, just perhaps, WS has figured out what is profitable and what isn’t?

With a couple of exceptions, the Canadian maritime markets are a lot like winter sun markets. They are highly seasonal.

That’s why no one has ever been successful with a maritime-based operation, be it EPA or CanJet 1.0 or 2.0.

It’s marginally additive to a network, but there’s no where near enough to build a core operation for a new entrant.

WS is basically saying “fill yer boots” with the scraps. They’ll continue with what makes money with a fleet of -800’s and larger that have casm economics and scale that blow away any E2 operation.

jimbo737 wrote:

WS has / had a 20 year head start building a substantial North American / sun network with a little Europe added for good measure, took a hard look with fresh eyes at the P&L and walked.

In my opinion, this is the big point, missed by many. Simply, if Westjet couldn’t do it, what makes Porter think they’ll be successful?

As I’ve said before, the Deluces have been running airlines a long time. They’re not new at this. I’ll be damned though if I can figure out their game plan.

Given that both WS and PD are currently privately-held we are left to speculate on what either operator is doing in a forward-looking sense. The publicly-traded pre-COVID version of WS seemed happy to duke it out in the Eastern half of the country, complete with a major operation at YYZ -- new ownership and new leadership have taken this in a different direction obviously -- be it actual financial losses or opportunity cos ts the decision has been made to retrench to Western Canada (and we certainly know there has been some retrenching, albeit on a smaller scale, by AC in some Western markets). As for PD -- and the decision to go with a big-bang growth plan as opposed to something more organic is what is fascinating to me. I can say (anecdotally) that people are definitely travelling -- scheduling/capacity issues out of Ontario regional markets have put me on Via Rail more often than in the past -- this past Saturday morning I was in a completely sold out Via Business Class on the 0-dark-thirty departure from Windsor-Toronto.

CrewBunk wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

CrewBunk, just wondering what meal you had and how would you rate it for taste? PD are definitely going to great lengths to advertise on the radio that they're still 'all-economy'. But the front of the cabin is definitely sounds like a nice +Y experience. You're correct that all alcohol on PD is served in glassware.

I’m not sure what their official menu title was, but it was a Salmon Salad type meal, served in a paper tub, with a roll and plastic cutlery. It was very good. But not really a “meal”. When I asked if I could try more, I was told they had nothing left. (I’d guess the flight was about a third full).

I’m not sure of their target market, but in future, I would think buying a seat somewhere further back, maybe with greater legroom would be better “value”. All passengers are offered free wifi, beer and wine, regardless of fare purchased.

These tub meals can be purchased. Each was about $8. They reminded me of Air Canada’s new BOB menu of “higher end” selections.

All in all, it was a very pleasant flight. But, my (just my opinion) take though, is that Porter Reserve is very good Economy where WestJet Premium at what is now about the same price is more like Business Class with a Premium Economy meal.

I’m not a big guy. About 200 lbs, 32” waist, 50” chest. I really appreciated the greater room of Westjet’s 737.

Sounds tasty and look forward to trying it myself at some point! I do take advantage of their wine offerings though...unless it's early in the morning.

shoelessjoe wrote:

Given that both WS and PD are currently privately-held we are left to speculate on what either operator is doing in a forward-looking sense. The publicly-traded pre-COVID version of WS seemed happy to duke it out in the Eastern half of the country, complete with a major operation at YYZ -- new ownership and new leadership have taken this in a different direction obviously -- be it actual financial losses or opportunity cos ts the decision has been made to retrench to Western Canada (and we certainly know there has been some retrenching, albeit on a smaller scale, by AC in some Western markets). As for PD -- and the decision to go with a big-bang growth plan as opposed to something more organic is what is fascinating to me. I can say (anecdotally) that people are definitely travelling -- scheduling/capacity issues out of Ontario regional markets have put me on Via Rail more often than in the past -- this past Saturday morning I was in a completely sold out Via Business Class on the 0-dark-thirty departure from Windsor-Toronto.

I think post covid that the amount of money lost means that they don’t have the luxury of duking it out and trying to make money (like you said)

I think it’ll be tough for PD to compete with Via rail. I don’t see PD’s expansion as being completely unviable but the sheer amount of expansion in just one year seems unsustainable to me. At the same time having higher frequencies from the get go would certainly make them a more attractive option for travellers

Inaugural YYC tomorrow. I'll be at the gate for the festivities. Flight almost surely will be full... loads next week will be a much better indication of how this will go. Looks like they'll always be on gate 18 here. Concourse A is becoming a mecca for LCC, but there will always be WestJets there as long as they operate dirty oil sands charters inbound from Firebag that require an exit route for unscreened pax.

Hopefully they don't run into any kind of consistent OTP issues - their block time is the same as an Air Canada MAX flight but they're flying ~30 knots less which is about 15 minutes over the course of a YYZ-YYC. Both flights quite late today.

Can't PD fly more arctic routes? Air Inuit and Canada North have little competition and regularly charge over 1000 CAD for a simple one way flight, I am sure PD can make money there. Or are these protected networks with caps on who can fly?

MEA-707 wrote:

Can't PD fly more arctic routes? Air Inuit and Canada North have little competition and regularly charge over 1000 CAD for a simple one way flight, I am sure PD can make money there. Or are these protected networks with caps on who can fly?

Anyone can fly anywhere in Canada. However the proper money maker on northern routes is cargo, and that's not something the E195/Q400 excels at. Even AC couldn't make YOW-YFB work, due to inability to carry cargo (were useing the CRJ705)

Lots of flights cancelled from YYZ to YOW and YUL and they're running Q400s on some of them.

Juju2004 wrote:

Lots of flights cancelled from YYZ to YOW and YUL and they're running Q400s on some of them.

Im just going to assume thats crew shortage related seeing how quickly they went from the plane/sims getting their certification to operating 2x yvr, 2x yyc and daily yeg with a decent amount of yuls and yows in the mix. Looks like the Q will pick up some of the slack, hopefully passengers are made aware of the changes or that can lead to some angry pax.

jumbojettony wrote:

Im just going to assume thats crew shortage related

Terrible weather at YYZ, which has never been world class at handling winter weather events. Lots of snow and freezing rain Wednesday overnight into Thursday.

A day doesn't go by when I don't get another 20% discount code from Porter, (who I've flown on maybe 5x in 15 years).

The latest was under the banner "Head West For Less".

It's going to be a tough road for Porter operating a high cost, premium economy operation and at the same time trying to be a low fare operator.

It's been tried countless times before and never works out well.

Quebec French media reporting Porter intends to build a new passenger terminal at Montreal CYHU airport. Details to come

Now that's a smart move.

Yes, reported in La Presse. They're talking about a 20K square meter (215K square foot) terminal with up to 9 gates. An announcement is apparently imminent. Work on the building could start this year.

Salomon wrote:

Quebec French media reporting Porter intends to build a new passenger terminal at Montreal CYHU airport. Details to come

If true it would take years. I've been to St.Hubert (my dad used to work at Pratt&Whitney) and it is totally surrounded by suburban housing. The occasional jets that use it (sports charters/Chronos aviation 737's) must drive the NIMBY's crazy. I predict strong opposition from the local residents.

Sounds like wish list free marketing/publicity to me.

On another note I toured the B-29 that visited there just before covid. Super cool.

Skywatcher wrote:

Salomon wrote:

Quebec French media reporting Porter intends to build a new passenger terminal at Montreal CYHU airport. Details to come

If true it would take years. I've been to St.Hubert (my dad used to work at Pratt&Whitney) and it is totally surrounded by suburban housing. The occasional jets that use it (sports charters/Chronos aviation 737's) must drive the NIMBY's crazy. I predict strong opposition from the local residents.

Sounds like wish list free marketing/publicity to me.

On another note I toured the B-29 that visited there just before covid. Super cool.

To me not even sure it makes sense geographically.
Toronto island works because how close you are to the city.
Hubert is 16 KM from downtown Montreal, with no transit options (I think, I am from West Island originally so don't know transit here well).
Trudeau is 18 KM from downtown Montreal, with a new transit option coming.

But here is something ending night time flight, ban from 11-6AM.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal ... -1.6735655

Here is the announcement for the presser: I think they meant the 27th, not 23rd.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/notice-p ... 00534.html

Porter wants to pay for that entire terminal on their own?

Acey wrote:

Porter wants to pay for that entire terminal on their own?

I hope its being subsidized for their own sake. St.Hubert has been trying to get a terminal built for years so maybe they got Porter to get onboard and be the ones to do it.

My question is now are they going to split ops between YUL and YHU or a total move to YHU. Split in Toronto and Montreal seams like a huge step towards increased complexity and an increase in costs.

If Porter mangement had only asked us Anetter experts we could have saved them a lot of trouble. Now that they've ignored our sage advice on everything else so far they're going to try to pull this rabbit out of their hat?
Inter-Candien flew an ATR-42 YHU-YYZ years ago. It failed miserably without spending a fortune on a terminal.
I hope to hell there's no government handouts in this bizarre plan.

They already ripped off $15 million of Federal cash for their new YOW hangar. Enough already.

Skywatcher wrote:

If Porter mangement had only asked us Anetter experts we could have saved them a lot of trouble. Now that they've ignored our sage advice on everything else so far they're going to try to pull this rabbit out of their hat?

I hope that's sarcasm lmao.

what could possibly go wrong

lostsound wrote:

Skywatcher wrote:

If Porter mangement had only asked us Anetter experts we could have saved them a lot of trouble. Now that they've ignored our sage advice on everything else so far they're going to try to pull this rabbit out of their hat?

I hope that's sarcasm lmao.

Of course it is lol

So they grow money on trees and somehow get over the leaps and hurdles to get this built, at which time they already have a sizeable operation at YUL? Are they moving it over or yet another split operation? In what universe could this possibly work?

Honestly a YHU terminal would be a low cost heaven, especially if they undercut YUL's AIF by a good amount.

Yeah but how much of that is negated by the sky high logistical costs and upfront capital to build the terminal and accompanying infrastructure in the first place?

I’m a bit sceptical since PD would be paying for terminal development. Is there that much benefit? Who’s making this decision and thinking that it’s a good idea??

Maybe they're building it and buying land around it to sell it later at a much higher price. YTZ kind of effect i guess.

Juju2004 wrote:

Maybe they're building it and buying land around it to sell it later at a much higher price. YTZ kind of effect i guess.

You might be onto something as there's also talk of a 100 room hotel.

Here's the link to the La Presse article (in French): https://www.lapresse.ca/affaires/2023-0 ... hubert.php

Was on the inaugural YYZ-YHZ E195-E2 last night (PD209). Was scheduled back to YYZ this AM on the inaugural YHZ-YYZ flight (PD200). Have never done an inaugural before and frankly the benefit of 2 $150 vouchers lured me in. So, a few thoughts -- I am mindful of not being trip-reporty but will try to gear my thoughts more toward the topic at hand -- PD, and by extension, its planned expansion/evolution as a carrier.

Low key festivities at the gate last night. Inbound aircraft (from YYC) was late. Boarding was a mess -- clearly growing pains and some new employees working in new spaces wtih new procedures. Pre-boards and Avids were called -- then every person in the gate area formed a huge line and they just kept boarding people -- the line backed up the jetway into the gate area. Full stop on boarding for about 10 minutes. Boarding resumed -- with about 3/4 of the aircraft boarded they then announced the beginning of boarding by rows. Odd scenario. Delayed at the gate for ground handling. Then delayed because the headcount and the manifest didn't match. Gate agents baorded and manually checked everyone. Pushed -- departed about 1:20 late. Aircraft looks great inside. No aft galley curtain (which the Qs do have) so when the lights are dimmed the whole aft cabin is lit up when there is activity in the galley or around the aft lavs. Pitch (I was near the rear) was miserable -- short king in front of me fully reclined into my knees (I'm a little over 6'1") and seemingly spent the rest of the flight pushing back on the seat like it would recline further. Service was OK.

This morning arrived back at YHZ after too little sleep. A bit more of a fullsome celebration at the gate (at least initially) including cake and YHZ-branded gloves. Not much activity around the Embraer. About a half hour to boarding there seemed to be a mood change -- brief announcement...flight cancelled. The $150 vouchers for the inaugural were suddenly $150 vouchers for compensation for the cancellation. They did meal vouchers as well. One of the PD execs who flew up the night before made a comment about it being a crew-shortage issue. Massive line formed. Slow processing --eventually automatically rebooked on an evening YHZ-YOW-YTZ flight. I waited and called the contact centre. Same Exec looked at his phone and said no availability earlier so you're likely out of luck. Contact centre answered -- wonderful woman, had me rebooked on the nonstop 11:55 YHZ-YTZ flight (PD2282) in about 30 seconds. So ultimately got on my way and made it home this evening.

Here are my thoughts -- I'm 35k Aeroplan, hardly a heavy hitter but I travel some. Porter is my second go-to, I belong to VIP but don't have elite status. As I've said on here before (as a YQG originating flyer) I have always liked Porter. I want to see them do well. They have (in my opinion, others will disagree) always maintained a degree of polished professionalism -- some of it a halo from the earlier days of boxed meals and lounges at YTZ and YOW -- but there is a familiar reliability to the operation (and as has been stated before the unique positioning of the YTZ hub vs all other competitors) -- in my eyes there has always been a bit of a Porter magic that made the product appealing at best, competitive at least. What I saw of the E195 ops (and yes it's very early and I shouldn't judge) -- that magic was missing. The brand seemed lost at T3 (those 30+ year old Canadi>n gate podiums are still going strong) and the soft product felt sterile. People don't like change -- and I'm sure I'm among them. Hopefully PD grows into the operation -- my hedge going forward is the traction will be better away from YYZ...just my thought. Obviously the big, long-established Q400 operation has the benefit of tenure and experience -- but it wasn't lost on me that when I found myself possibly stranded in Nova Scotia on a snowy morning that it was "old" Porter that got me home. The service on that flight was as excellent and familiar as ever. With that I doubt I will do an inaugural again! Going to bed for 10 or 11 hours now!

shoelessjoe wrote:

Inbound aircraft (from YYC) was late.

Yeah, because the block times aren't long enough. Both flights an hour late today as well. You make a key point about "old" Porter versus the new, because the E195 operation here at YYC is like these people have never run an airline before.

Acey it felt that way at YYZ too. The gate staff at Halifax were fantastic (of course they've all been running a reasonably large operation for at least a decade). I didn't mention the WiFi -- it was great. Flawless. I have been watching PD209 tonight -- hasn't left yet.

ddp wrote:

To me not even sure it makes sense geographically.
Toronto island works because how close you are to the city.
Hubert is 16 KM from downtown Montreal, with no transit options (I think, I am from West Island originally so don't know transit here well).
Trudeau is 18 KM from downtown Montreal, with a new transit option coming.

IceCream wrote:

I’m a bit sceptical since PD would be paying for terminal development. Is there that much benefit? Who’s making this decision and thinking that it’s a good idea??

Geography isn't important. YUL doesn't have enough gates. It's as simple as that. This might be PD's solution to that problem.

They need to find a place for all those E195s coming into the fleet. YYZ and YUL are maxed out or close to it. The markets at YOW and YHZ can't handle and dont require that many jets. So where are you goind to base all these planes? WS has YYC by the balls. Ditto for AC and YVR. You're not going to base 100 E195s in YOW/YHZ/YEG and YWG !

This might be the solution. Nine gates is quite a lot. They currently only have 2-3 at YUL, and they are getting bounced around by ADM. They lost their gates at the domestic jetty and got kicked out to the aeroquay a couple of years back. Now with a few E195s in the fleet, I think ADM gave them a gate or two at the domestic jetty this winter season, but I don't think it will be easy to accomodate them this coming summer season. So their situation at YUL is not good. Now, add in the fact that PD has experience building/operating a terminal building, plus the fact that they sold it and made a profit, and you quickly see where PD is coming from in all of this.

In the grand scheme of things, it does make sense. And it explains the accelerated timeline that is rumoured. Shovels are supposed to hit the ground this spring ! Now, do they have the financials to make all of this work? That is the million dollar question !

Acey wrote:

Yeah but how much of that is negated by the sky high logistical costs and upfront capital to build the terminal and accompanying infrastructure in the first place?

There will be a provincial minister and the local mayor at the press release on monday. Seems to me taxpayer money is involved.

whywhyzee wrote:

My question is now are they going to split ops between YUL and YHU or a total move to YHU. Split in Toronto and Montreal seams like a huge step towards increased complexity and an increase in costs.

They only have 2-3 gates at YUL at the moment. So 9 is quite the increase. If this goes ahead, they could completely move out of YUL. Of course, that scenario leaves in jeopardy their codeshare with TS, but as PD gets more and more E195s, how important will that codeshare be, really?

Juju2004 wrote:

Honestly a YHU terminal would be a low cost heaven, especially if they undercut YUL's AIF by a good amount.

One thing to keep in mind though.

ADM has the exclusivity on international flights for Montreal with their lease agreement with Transport Canada, which runs until 2072 I think. So if this new terminal at YHU is built, it will only be used for domestic flights. Anywhere else in the country, this isn't a big deal, but in Quebec, the vast majority of the flying public wants to fly out of the country. They're not interested in flying to Ontario, BC or Alberta.

Quebec regional carriers might be interested in operating out of this terminal however. I expect Pascan, Nolinor and the likes to knock on PD's door quite soon after this terminal is built.