Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
FlyingElvii wrote:Per APC, Skywest Charter began interviewing for Captains last week. Almost all were over 65, and much was said about mentoring new pilots.
The plans that Skywest has for SWC are said to be "Ambitious", it seems that among other things they intend it to be a school funnel for FO's into a SKW chair.
theAviationGeek wrote:Which route is it that Southern has proposed the Saab on? I’m eager to see the potential return of SF34 pax ops in the states.
sldispatcher wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:Per APC, Skywest Charter began interviewing for Captains last week. Almost all were over 65, and much was said about mentoring new pilots.
The plans that Skywest has for SWC are said to be "Ambitious", it seems that among other things they intend it to be a school funnel for FO's into a SKW chair.
Brilliant move and excellent way to teach less experienced ones with an opportunity head and shoulders above puttering around as a CFI
Jshank83 wrote:theAviationGeek wrote:Which route is it that Southern has proposed the Saab on? I’m eager to see the potential return of SF34 pax ops in the states.
MWA-ORD
Maybe IRK-ORD also. Not sure on that one.
theAviationGeek wrote:Which route is it that Southern has proposed the Saab on? I’m eager to see the potential return of SF34 pax ops in the states.
atrude777 wrote:Jshank83 wrote:theAviationGeek wrote:Which route is it that Southern has proposed the Saab on? I’m eager to see the potential return of SF34 pax ops in the states.
MWA-ORD
Maybe IRK-ORD also. Not sure on that one.theAviationGeek wrote:Which route is it that Southern has proposed the Saab on? I’m eager to see the potential return of SF34 pax ops in the states.
To answer theAviationgeek...
Southern proposed the Saab 340 on OWB/IRK/MWA to ORD with Caravan service to STL.
Jshank83 was correct on IRK, but Southern offered two proposals, 21 weekly to STL OR, 7 Weekly to ORD, 14 Weekly to STL.
OWB, although Contour was selected by them, Southern offered 7 Weekly to ORD and 21 weekly to STL.
If DOT approves OWB and MWA's choices...
Contour will see the following in the lower midwest region...
CGI-BNA
OWB-CLT
PAH-CLT
MWA-ORD
Still awaiting Kirksville Decision...
Alex
Jshank83 wrote:atrude777 wrote:Jshank83 wrote:
MWA-ORD
Maybe IRK-ORD also. Not sure on that one.theAviationGeek wrote:Which route is it that Southern has proposed the Saab on? I’m eager to see the potential return of SF34 pax ops in the states.
To answer theAviationgeek...
Southern proposed the Saab 340 on OWB/IRK/MWA to ORD with Caravan service to STL.
Jshank83 was correct on IRK, but Southern offered two proposals, 21 weekly to STL OR, 7 Weekly to ORD, 14 Weekly to STL.
OWB, although Contour was selected by them, Southern offered 7 Weekly to ORD and 21 weekly to STL.
If DOT approves OWB and MWA's choices...
Contour will see the following in the lower midwest region...
CGI-BNA
OWB-CLT
PAH-CLT
MWA-ORD
Still awaiting Kirksville Decision...
Alex
IRK was always the wild card in this for me. You know MWA/OWB wanted Chicago bad. I never hear anything out of IRK on if they are happy with STL or have been wanting Chicago. I thought they were the most likely to keep a STL flight. This would end Cape at STL also.
Jshank83 wrote:atrude777 wrote:Jshank83 wrote:
MWA-ORD
Maybe IRK-ORD also. Not sure on that one.theAviationGeek wrote:Which route is it that Southern has proposed the Saab on? I’m eager to see the potential return of SF34 pax ops in the states.
To answer theAviationgeek...
Southern proposed the Saab 340 on OWB/IRK/MWA to ORD with Caravan service to STL.
Jshank83 was correct on IRK, but Southern offered two proposals, 21 weekly to STL OR, 7 Weekly to ORD, 14 Weekly to STL.
OWB, although Contour was selected by them, Southern offered 7 Weekly to ORD and 21 weekly to STL.
If DOT approves OWB and MWA's choices...
Contour will see the following in the lower midwest region...
CGI-BNA
OWB-CLT
PAH-CLT
MWA-ORD
Still awaiting Kirksville Decision...
Alex
IRK was always the wild card in this for me. You know MWA/OWB wanted Chicago bad. I never hear anything out of IRK on if they are happy with STL or have been wanting Chicago. I thought they were the most likely to keep a STL flight. This would end Cape at STL also.
atrude777 wrote:Jshank83 wrote:atrude777 wrote:
To answer theAviationgeek...
Southern proposed the Saab 340 on OWB/IRK/MWA to ORD with Caravan service to STL.
Jshank83 was correct on IRK, but Southern offered two proposals, 21 weekly to STL OR, 7 Weekly to ORD, 14 Weekly to STL.
OWB, although Contour was selected by them, Southern offered 7 Weekly to ORD and 21 weekly to STL.
If DOT approves OWB and MWA's choices...
Contour will see the following in the lower midwest region...
CGI-BNA
OWB-CLT
PAH-CLT
MWA-ORD
Still awaiting Kirksville Decision...
Alex
IRK was always the wild card in this for me. You know MWA/OWB wanted Chicago bad. I never hear anything out of IRK on if they are happy with STL or have been wanting Chicago. I thought they were the most likely to keep a STL flight. This would end Cape at STL also.
That's why I am more surprised OWB didn't go for Southern...they got STL and Chicago, especially as they already have jet service on Allegiant. If OWB wanted Chicago they should have voted Southern. Now they are getting Contour to CLT, a destination already served by PAH just south, and EVV northwest and they already have jet service.
I don't run an airport, but it would seem in OWB, having 3 different destinations between STL, ORD and Orlando would be nice. It's easy to argue they are so close to EVV but so is MWA/CGI/PAH....
MWA to Chicago was understandable with CGI and PAH nearby offering the region 3 different destinations, they can go South, East or North...
IRK is def a wild card, I agree. Any decision they make wouldn't surprise me.
Alex
FlyingElvii wrote:Jshank83 wrote:atrude777 wrote:
To answer theAviationgeek...
Southern proposed the Saab 340 on OWB/IRK/MWA to ORD with Caravan service to STL.
Jshank83 was correct on IRK, but Southern offered two proposals, 21 weekly to STL OR, 7 Weekly to ORD, 14 Weekly to STL.
OWB, although Contour was selected by them, Southern offered 7 Weekly to ORD and 21 weekly to STL.
If DOT approves OWB and MWA's choices...
Contour will see the following in the lower midwest region...
CGI-BNA
OWB-CLT
PAH-CLT
MWA-ORD
Still awaiting Kirksville Decision...
Alex
IRK was always the wild card in this for me. You know MWA/OWB wanted Chicago bad. I never hear anything out of IRK on if they are happy with STL or have been wanting Chicago. I thought they were the most likely to keep a STL flight. This would end Cape at STL also.
Contour’s big draw (and soon SkwC as well) big draw is the ability to get to primary hubs, and that magical 10,000 pax number that opens up the ability to get more Fed money for improvements and subsidies.
FlyingElvii wrote:Contour’s big draw (and soon SkwC as well) big draw is the ability to get to primary hubs, and that magical 10,000 pax number that opens up the ability to get more Fed money for improvements and subsidies.
atrude777 wrote:Kirksville, Missouri has decided Contour Airlines as well to Chicago.
Assuming DOT chooses the communities selections and decisions, Cape Air is out of STL and BNA.
Kirskville's Selection: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -2515-0112
Owensboro's Selection: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -7855-0195
**I would read OWB's Submission. Lots of research went into this about why they chose Contour
Marion: DOT has not posted Marion's Submission yet.
Alex
DiamondFlyer wrote:sldispatcher wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:Per APC, Skywest Charter began interviewing for Captains last week. Almost all were over 65, and much was said about mentoring new pilots.
The plans that Skywest has for SWC are said to be "Ambitious", it seems that among other things they intend it to be a school funnel for FO's into a SKW chair.
Brilliant move and excellent way to teach less experienced ones with an opportunity head and shoulders above puttering around as a CFI
So much for "One Level of Safety". OO Charters is a total joke, and will be an operational nightmare. Can't wait to see it implode.
FlyingElvii wrote:atrude777 wrote:Kirksville, Missouri has decided Contour Airlines as well to Chicago.
Assuming DOT chooses the communities selections and decisions, Cape Air is out of STL and BNA.
Kirskville's Selection: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -2515-0112
Owensboro's Selection: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -7855-0195
**I would read OWB's Submission. Lots of research went into this about why they chose Contour
Marion: DOT has not posted Marion's Submission yet.
Alex
TBN-IRK-ORD as an early morning out, late Inbound tag? Could work as Contour has line Maintenance there. And usually plentiful nearby hotels for the crews.
atrude777 wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:atrude777 wrote:Kirksville, Missouri has decided Contour Airlines as well to Chicago.
Assuming DOT chooses the communities selections and decisions, Cape Air is out of STL and BNA.
Kirskville's Selection: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -2515-0112
Owensboro's Selection: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -7855-0195
**I would read OWB's Submission. Lots of research went into this about why they chose Contour
Marion: DOT has not posted Marion's Submission yet.
Alex
TBN-IRK-ORD as an early morning out, late Inbound tag? Could work as Contour has line Maintenance there. And usually plentiful nearby hotels for the crews.
Assuming TBN would get to keep their DFW/BNA flights?
TBN was very frustrated with the tag flights when they had SkyWest and was a big reason for the switchover back to Contour, so they could have their own flights.
You bring up a point though...
Do you guys think TBN and CGI may try to get Contour to change BNA to ORD now that Contour potentially has ORD? I can't imagine Contour saying no as it would help the cost of opening ORD for two cities?
Alex
FlyingElvii wrote:atrude777 wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:TBN-IRK-ORD as an early morning out, late Inbound tag? Could work as Contour has line Maintenance there. And usually plentiful nearby hotels for the crews.
Assuming TBN would get to keep their DFW/BNA flights?
TBN was very frustrated with the tag flights when they had SkyWest and was a big reason for the switchover back to Contour, so they could have their own flights.
You bring up a point though...
Do you guys think TBN and CGI may try to get Contour to change BNA to ORD now that Contour potentially has ORD? I can't imagine Contour saying no as it would help the cost of opening ORD for two cities?
Alex
I assume this could be in addition to the already existing trips, going to TBN to overnight could simplify maint and inspections, and add a few extra heads to the first out, last in IRK as well. CGI-IRK-ORD might be too far out of the way, but TBN is right down the line from IRK.
FlyingElvii wrote:I assume this could be in addition to the already existing trips, going to TBN to overnight could simplify maint and inspections, and add a few extra heads to the first out, last in IRK as well. CGI-IRK-ORD might be too far out of the way, but TBN is right down the line from IRK.
Jshank83 wrote:
Probably a good way to get those cities not to vote to keep you the next contract. They didn’t sign up for tag flights. If they get switched to tag it is going to erode any trust next time around.
If they are adds to what they already had I assume the money doesn’t work with no subsidy
usxguy wrote:do we even know if United/Delta has approved SkyWest *charters* as a codeshare, and has the DOT issued a ruling on Scheduled Part 135 as DOT 380 selling thru another partner that is NOT an owner? (that's the main reason that the DOT allows the JetSuite/Jetblue codeshare, since B6 owns a part of JSX).
sldispatcher wrote:Question, is Contour Aviation/Skywest limited ONLY to EAS cities, or could (esp Skywest) go after at-risk flying with those birds?
yoshoward12 wrote:sldispatcher wrote:Question, is Contour Aviation/Skywest limited ONLY to EAS cities, or could (esp Skywest) go after at-risk flying with those birds?
Contour has tried at-risk flying a few times, using their E135s out of BNA. They also tried flying out of PIT, IND, and MKE.
sldispatcher wrote:yoshoward12 wrote:sldispatcher wrote:Question, is Contour Aviation/Skywest limited ONLY to EAS cities, or could (esp Skywest) go after at-risk flying with those birds?
Contour has tried at-risk flying a few times, using their E135s out of BNA. They also tried flying out of PIT, IND, and MKE.
I wonder if it was subsidized…..
yoshoward12 wrote:sldispatcher wrote:yoshoward12 wrote:
Contour has tried at-risk flying a few times, using their E135s out of BNA. They also tried flying out of PIT, IND, and MKE.
I wonder if it was subsidized…..
There were a few kickbacks. And the tails that were used were subsidized tails, so it was basically experimental. They pulled out of those routes to use those tails to fly to other EAS communities.
atrude777 wrote:Kirksville, Missouri has decided Contour Airlines as well to Chicago.
Assuming DOT chooses the communities selections and decisions, Cape Air is out of STL and BNA.
Kirskville's Selection: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -2515-0112
Owensboro's Selection: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -7855-0195
**I would read OWB's Submission. Lots of research went into this about why they chose Contour
Marion: DOT has not posted Marion's Submission yet.
Alex
atrude777 wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:I assume this could be in addition to the already existing trips, going to TBN to overnight could simplify maint and inspections, and add a few extra heads to the first out, last in IRK as well. CGI-IRK-ORD might be too far out of the way, but TBN is right down the line from IRK.Jshank83 wrote:
Probably a good way to get those cities not to vote to keep you the next contract. They didn’t sign up for tag flights. If they get switched to tag it is going to erode any trust next time around.
If they are adds to what they already had I assume the money doesn’t work with no subsidy
So to make sure I am clear, I would not be advising tag flights unless it's an addition...otherwise per Jshank83's point..there would be no additional subsidiary for those.
I only suggested that perhaps..TBN would ask to move their TBN-BNA to Chicago..no Tag Flights. Simply move one of the flights to split operations.
TBN-ORD/DFW
IRK-ORD
CGI-ORD/BNA
CGI and TBN were very vocal about the tag flights with SkyWest.
Alex
Jshank83 wrote:Starting to think contour is spreading to thin.
According to FlightAware.com, a flight tracking software, only two Contour flights have taken off from Philadelphia to Ogdensburg since at least January 17.
Only three flights took off from Ogdensburg to Philadelphia during that time.
Going in both directions, a total of 34 flights were canceled in the last two weeks.
https://www.wwnytv.com/2023/01/31/conto ... g-airport/
If I was one of the new cities they bid I would have a lot of questions before I commit.
crj900lr wrote:Jshank83 wrote:Starting to think contour is spreading to thin.
According to FlightAware.com, a flight tracking software, only two Contour flights have taken off from Philadelphia to Ogdensburg since at least January 17.
Only three flights took off from Ogdensburg to Philadelphia during that time.
Going in both directions, a total of 34 flights were canceled in the last two weeks.
https://www.wwnytv.com/2023/01/31/conto ... g-airport/
If I was one of the new cities they bid I would have a lot of questions before I commit.
They are a disaster in PHL. The crews are very nice and easy to work with but it's the maintenance that's causing the issues. AC 525 and 502 were both down for extended periods of time for problems. Last I heard 502 was still in Smyrna getting fixed and only 525 was flying the PHL routes. 512 may have made a guest appearance but i'm sure that's only for a short time as that probably leaves another part of their operation short. I believe they are supposed to be getting 10 more 140's or 145's from the desert. I believe they are all ex Envoy planes.
sldispatcher wrote:yoshoward12 wrote:sldispatcher wrote:
I wonder if it was subsidized…..
There were a few kickbacks. And the tails that were used were subsidized tails, so it was basically experimental. They pulled out of those routes to use those tails to fly to other EAS communities.
So I wonder if a community offered them a subsidy again if they’d go for it
yoshoward12 wrote:sldispatcher wrote:yoshoward12 wrote:
There were a few kickbacks. And the tails that were used were subsidized tails, so it was basically experimental. They pulled out of those routes to use those tails to fly to other EAS communities.
So I wonder if a community offered them a subsidy again if they’d go for it
Nah, they are gonna stay away from at risk flying for a while. Makes more sense to just eat up those EAS routes. Straight cash.
atrude777 wrote:Assuming DOT chooses the communities selections and decisions, Cape Air is out of STL and BNA.
JFernandez wrote:atrude777 wrote:Assuming DOT chooses the communities selections and decisions, Cape Air is out of STL and BNA.
As someone who was flying Cape Air out of UIN ~25 times per year the past couple of years, the collapse of Cape Air's presence in STL has been shockingly rapid, and I guess this makes ORD questionable (though the MBL flights always seemed reliably packed).
Will miss those Tecnam P2012's (when they flew, anyways)...
oosnowrat wrote:yoshoward12 wrote:sldispatcher wrote:
So I wonder if a community offered them a subsidy again if they’d go for it
Nah, they are gonna stay away from at risk flying for a while. Makes more sense to just eat up those EAS routes. Straight cash.
On an earnings call in the last year or two OO said they would be moving away from markets with risk. Since then they've gotten revenue guarantees from at least three non-EAS cities. As long as cities are willing to pay, I would expect OO to keep serving them. Switching to 30 seats shouldn't impact some (EKO) as they don't usually run >60% full now.
atrude777 wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:atrude777 wrote:Kirksville, Missouri has decided Contour Airlines as well to Chicago.
Assuming DOT chooses the communities selections and decisions, Cape Air is out of STL and BNA.
Kirskville's Selection: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -2515-0112
Owensboro's Selection: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -7855-0195
**I would read OWB's Submission. Lots of research went into this about why they chose Contour
Marion: DOT has not posted Marion's Submission yet.
Alex
TBN-IRK-ORD as an early morning out, late Inbound tag? Could work as Contour has line Maintenance there. And usually plentiful nearby hotels for the crews.
Assuming TBN would get to keep their DFW/BNA flights?
TBN was very frustrated with the tag flights when they had SkyWest and was a big reason for the switchover back to Contour, so they could have their own flights.
You bring up a point though...
Do you guys think TBN and CGI may try to get Contour to change BNA to ORD now that Contour potentially has ORD? I can't imagine Contour saying no as it would help the cost of opening ORD for two cities?
Alex
atrude777 wrote:atrude777 wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:TBN-IRK-ORD as an early morning out, late Inbound tag? Could work as Contour has line Maintenance there. And usually plentiful nearby hotels for the crews.
Assuming TBN would get to keep their DFW/BNA flights?
TBN was very frustrated with the tag flights when they had SkyWest and was a big reason for the switchover back to Contour, so they could have their own flights.
You bring up a point though...
Do you guys think TBN and CGI may try to get Contour to change BNA to ORD now that Contour potentially has ORD? I can't imagine Contour saying no as it would help the cost of opening ORD for two cities?
Alex
As if we are mind readers...
Cape Girardeau has shared they are in preliminary talks to add a second destination with Contour. Unsure if this means a 3rd flight, or switching one of the CGI-BNA's to another city. I wonder if the fact Contour is doing Chicago now (assuming DOT approval), that CGI might want Chicago back, or looking at TBN and considering Dallas.
Source: https://www.semissourian.com/story/2983902.html
Remarks: Also at the meeting, Amos said she was having preliminary conversations with Contour about adding another destination from Cape Girardeau, in addition to Nashville, Tennessee.
****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Marion Contour: As of this morning, DOT has not published MWA's request for Contour, again Kirksville and Owensboro has. News locally are still talking about Contour to Chicago...MWA had some notes of interest...
Source: https://thesouthern.com/news/local/comm ... b02c3.html
Notes: "A big factor for the airport board was Contour said they expected roughly 14,000 passengers per year. Southern projected about 12,000 with Cape Air only projecting 9,5000 passengers.
Kimmel said the airport received several calls from people in Cape Girardeau and Paducah interested in flights to Chicago."
I am curious if CGI now is going to ask for Chicago...
Alex
atrude777 wrote:Liberal, Kansas submits selection of SkyWest Charters to Denver
Source: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -3498-0132
Notes of Interest: SkyWest Charter forecast 24,960 annual passengers at Liberal on 1,210 annual flights {97% completion)
with a forecast load factor of 67%. Flights would have full United Airline code and brand affiliation, as
current SkyWest service offers.
This keeps coming up...and again other cities had chosen not to continue with SkyWest Charters because at the time there was not going to be a UA Codeshare...
********************************************************************************************************************************
These cities have requested an extension to DOT for proposals.
North Platte, Nebraska
Salina, Kansas
Scottsbluff, Nebraska
Source: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... 11376-0222
*****************************************************************************************************************************
Something I hadn't heard from in awhile, DEC. Decatur, Illinois.
I cannot find a request for new proposals or anything. DOT has placed a hold in rate for SkyWest however. Any ideas regarding DEC?
Alex
atrude777 wrote:crj900lr wrote:Jshank83 wrote:Starting to think contour is spreading to thin.
According to FlightAware.com, a flight tracking software, only two Contour flights have taken off from Philadelphia to Ogdensburg since at least January 17.
Only three flights took off from Ogdensburg to Philadelphia during that time.
Going in both directions, a total of 34 flights were canceled in the last two weeks.
https://www.wwnytv.com/2023/01/31/conto ... g-airport/
If I was one of the new cities they bid I would have a lot of questions before I commit.
They are a disaster in PHL. The crews are very nice and easy to work with but it's the maintenance that's causing the issues. AC 525 and 502 were both down for extended periods of time for problems. Last I heard 502 was still in Smyrna getting fixed and only 525 was flying the PHL routes. 512 may have made a guest appearance but i'm sure that's only for a short time as that probably leaves another part of their operation short. I believe they are supposed to be getting 10 more 140's or 145's from the desert. I believe they are all ex Envoy planes.
I don't want to make this a gang up on Contour...
but here are some of the complaints making the news in the last few months, between Maintenance, Airline Reservation or Weather...
Weather, I cannot solely blame on the airline...
Ogdensburg: https://www.wwnytv.com/2023/02/01/conto ... celations/
Paducah-https://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/customers-voice-frustration-with-contour-airlines-booking-process/article_c01be5ea-a67c-11ed-86a4-178b921bf5d1.html
Macon: https://www.13wmaz.com/article/travel/a ... 8f7fbc358b
With a small airline, when Maintenance hits...it just brings the airline down.
My concern is Contour overpromised...they promised CGI and PAH an onsite Mechanic (they have yet to hire one), and a stand by aircraft ready to go when another aircraft goes down...
Contour will get through it, but it's not a good look when trying to open multiple cities at the same time.
Alex
BangersAndMash wrote:On OO Charters' alleged UA codeshare, I'll believe that one when I see it.
Not that it can't be done, but there are operational complexities and I'm curious to see how this will pan out.
Per public charter rules, UA will not be able to access the proceeds from any ticket sales until the flights have been completed. I somehow doubt UA is going to be on board with that. So what gives? Is OO going to pay UA upfront and recoup the difference from the escrow account? This could become interesting for OO budget wise.
BangersAndMash wrote:On OO Charters' alleged UA codeshare, I'll believe that one when I see it.
Not that it can't be done, but there are operational complexities and I'm curious to see how this will pan out.
Per public charter rules, UA will not be able to access the proceeds from any ticket sales until the flights have been completed. I somehow doubt UA is going to be on board with that. So what gives? Is OO going to pay UA upfront and recoup the difference from the escrow account? This could become interesting for OO budget wise.
FlyingElvii wrote:
atrude777 wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:
To piggy back on this...
IRK states in this article, posted below, they expect to hear from DOT by April 1st with flights starting July 1st.
OWB and MWA are both quoted as June 1st, unsure if this was a typo, or just different start dates for each city. OWB is to CLT so I can see that being a factor, but MWA is also ORD like IRK.
Source: https://ktvo.com/news/local/city-counci ... kirksville
DOT still hasn't shown a filing for MWA, but I went back to MWA's history and DOT hasn't posted the previous proposal submissions for MWA, going back to 2019, and 2015..how odd...so I don't expect to be able to read MWA's submission. I was genuinely curious to see how MWA came to their decision like OWB and IRK posted.
It will be nice to see some actual traffic in that big new building MWA put up.
Alex