greenair727 wrote:

Ricky Smith tore down the long term garage and that capacity (except for its replacement with a surface lot) has never been restored and we have more local traffic (vs. connecting) now than we did than years earlier. If we build any garage it should be for that; if we include the rental car agencies in it, it would be a 20-story parking tower as we should not use horizontal space for this use---especially if the myopic Bibb Administration wants to tear down the only hotel on airport grounds. A new hotel is a far better use of limited landside airport space than a giant rental cars facility where one already successfully exists.

On the CLE website this AM, a random TH on a slower travel month, the only lot with available parking is the BROWN lot. That backs up your point that additional onsite parking is needed.

In the report out in May of 2021, they stated their goals were to add 600 rental car spots and 4,000 onsite walkable parking spots. Let's hope the purchase of the hotel and the relocation of the rental car facilities are this part, not just a rental car facility!

I have no idea what will happen to parking when the BROWN lot is taken out for construction - will be a lot of people headed down Snow Road.

highflier92660 wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Which is why I think it's got to be a big garage that will have public parking too. (Same as MSP and MDW). They absolutely need some kind of bridge and moving sidewalk to make that convenient. That would explain the $200 mil plus price tag

TPA Tampa International's SkyConnect opened five-years ago, along with a massive car rental center and garage. Most articles I've read quote a total cost north of a billion dollars. A passenger's journey from aircraft to rental car is seamless, though the SkyConnect experience does begin to resemble the Disney World monorail ride. Scroll down to see the scale of the project.

https://www.greshamsmith.com/project/tp ... ar-center/

I always like flying into TPA with their shuttle "cars" to the various terminals. And they seemed less congested than say MCO's.

With CLE weather, this type of set-up makes sense. Moving walkways have a place but over long distances they take a long time to get anywhere. It's probably a cost issue though.

Who needs an on-site hotel at a non hub airport? I disagree with your thinking. The current offsite rental car facility is a pile of garbage— its location and condition— and yet another cleveland airport embarrassment for out of town visitors. Increasing on site parking is part of the master facility plan but I can’t readily readily find the number of spaces.

greenair727 wrote:

Ricky Smith tore down the long term garage and that capacity (except for its replacement with a surface lot) has never been restored and we have more local traffic (vs. connecting) now than we did than years earlier. If we build any garage it should be for that; if we include the rental car agencies in it, it would be a 20-story parking tower as we should not use horizontal space for this use---especially if the myopic Bibb Administration wants to tear down the only hotel on airport grounds. A new hotel is a far better use of limited landside airport space than a giant rental cars facility where one already successfully exists.

ncflyer wrote:

Who needs an on-site hotel at a non hub airport? I disagree with your thinking. The current offsite rental car facility is a pile of garbage— its location and condition— and yet another cleveland airport embarrassment for out of town visitors. Increasing on site parking is part of the master facility plan but I can’t readily readily find the number of spaces.

greenair727 wrote:

Ricky Smith tore down the long term garage and that capacity (except for its replacement with a surface lot) has never been restored and we have more local traffic (vs. connecting) now than we did than years earlier. If we build any garage it should be for that; if we include the rental car agencies in it, it would be a 20-story parking tower as we should not use horizontal space for this use---especially if the myopic Bibb Administration wants to tear down the only hotel on airport grounds. A new hotel is a far better use of limited landside airport space than a giant rental cars facility where one already successfully exists.

Goal was to increase onsite parking by 4,000 spots.

Wonder what the impact of BP re-acquiring Travel Centers of America this week will have on air travel. I had many friends who worked for TA when BP sold it in 1992. They have a nice sized operation in Westlake.

It's really funny that in all the press releases only Cleveland.com reminds folks that BP once owned TA. BP doesn't have much of a actual retail presence anymore selling many refineries, terminal, pipelines and gas stations. . Alot of stations are branded as BP but run by other companies. Since that's the case, I hope they keep the HQ here. They moved BP America's HQ out of Chicago many years ago to Houston. Perhaps the engineers developing their EV charging strategy will travel to CLE to coordinate.

Also see that the Cleveland Clinic is building a third hospital in England.

New clinic building in London is outpatient, not a hospital. I think it's fair to say that will lead to about zero new routine travel from Cleveland to London-- perhaps a couple of one off trips to get it set up. Who knows maybe some patients will be treated in London and advised to travel to Cleveland for treatment but that's really fishing for air traffic!!

LinkedIn has about 600 people for Travel Centers in Northeast Ohio. LinkedIn is not a perfect counter but it's directional-- sometimes former employees get mixed in. How many of those travel, or how many operators travel to Cleveland for training-- no clue. Let's just hope BP doesn't move the jobs out of town they sure have a history of that, and it could happen gradually.

ncflyer wrote:

New clinic building in London is outpatient, not a hospital. I think it's fair to say that will lead to about zero new routine travel from Cleveland to London-- perhaps a couple of one off trips to get it set up. Who knows maybe some patients will be treated in London and advised to travel to Cleveland for treatment but that's really fishing for air traffic!!

LinkedIn has about 600 people for Travel Centers in Northeast Ohio. LinkedIn is not a perfect counter but it's directional-- sometimes former employees get mixed in. How many of those travel, or how many operators travel to Cleveland for training-- no clue. Let's just hope BP doesn't move the jobs out of town they sure have a history of that, and it could happen gradually.

There is very little routine traffic between any of the Clinic facilities. Few folks will be travelling from the UK to Cleveland as the NHS isn't going to pay for it. The Clinic gets a lot of private pay patients from the Middle East, but those folks aren't going back and forth with any regularity, most of them stay long term.

What about staff? I know a couple of nurses who went over to the ME to work at the Clinic. Their homes are still here and they get paid a boat load of money so flying home shouldn't be an issue.

Maybe all those rich Russians and other immigrants who live in London might want to be treated in Cleveland if they have heart issues.

luckyone wrote:

There is very little routine traffic between any of the Clinic facilities.

Source? Any #'s available?

fun2fly wrote:

luckyone wrote:

There is very little routine traffic between any of the Clinic facilities.

Source? Any #'s available?

I'm a physician. I live in Cleveland. I have a lot of friends who work for various sites at the Cleveland Clinic. Fill in the blanks.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

What about staff? I know a couple of nurses who went over to the ME to work at the Clinic. Their homes are still here and they get paid a boat load of money so flying home shouldn't be an issue.

Maybe all those rich Russians and other immigrants who live in London might want to be treated in Cleveland if they have heart issues.

The staff are overwhelmingly locally sourced, and the last couple years nursing staff has been a headache and a half -- right now they're not sending anybody anywhere with the number of agency nurses they're having to bring in. There are some staff who have spent time at the Abu Dhabi facility, but's not a large number. Physicians don't even travel much between the sites in the States. As for maybes about Russians in London, all I can say is that is speculation.

luckyone wrote:

fun2fly wrote:

luckyone wrote:

There is very little routine traffic between any of the Clinic facilities.

Source? Any #'s available?

I'm a physician. I live in Cleveland. I have a lot of friends who work for various sites at the Cleveland Clinic. Fill in the blanks.

So, speculation. I was hoping for real data from a travel database or service provider (agency, airline, CCF travel manager, etc.). CCF travel encompasses so many areas: there's staffing of the hospitals, administration of the hospitals, then traveling doctors headed out for in country house calls and probably more we don't know about. In the 15 years since I started this thread, I've never seen anyone produce real data on the CCF impact to travel.

fun2fly wrote:

So, speculation. I was hoping for real data from a travel database or service provider (agency, airline, CCF travel manager, etc.). CCF travel encompasses so many areas: there's staffing of the hospitals, administration of the hospitals, then traveling doctors headed out for in country house calls and probably more we don't know about. In the 15 years since I started this thread, I've never seen anyone produce real data on the CCF impact to travel.

Therefore, doesn't basic reasoning suggest that there isn't any? Or the impact to travel is so miniscule that it doesn't register in a meaningful way?

These things are so overblown. I'm still waiting for Etihad to begin AUH-CLE (that's a reference to some comical wishful thinking here after Cleveland Clinic opened their Abu Dhabi facility).

flyPIT wrote:

fun2fly wrote:

So, speculation. I was hoping for real data from a travel database or service provider (agency, airline, CCF travel manager, etc.). CCF travel encompasses so many areas: there's staffing of the hospitals, administration of the hospitals, then traveling doctors headed out for in country house calls and probably more we don't know about. In the 15 years since I started this thread, I've never seen anyone produce real data on the CCF impact to travel.

Therefore, doesn't basic reasoning suggest that there isn't any? Or the impact to travel is so miniscule that it doesn't register in a meaningful way?

These things are so overblown. I'm still waiting for Etihad to begin AUH-CLE (that's a reference to some comical wishful thinking here after Cleveland Clinic opened their Abu Dhabi facility).

So you'd agree that UPMC has even less of an impact at PIT than the CCF does at CLE?

MohawkWeekend wrote:

flyPIT wrote:

fun2fly wrote:

So, speculation. I was hoping for real data from a travel database or service provider (agency, airline, CCF travel manager, etc.). CCF travel encompasses so many areas: there's staffing of the hospitals, administration of the hospitals, then traveling doctors headed out for in country house calls and probably more we don't know about. In the 15 years since I started this thread, I've never seen anyone produce real data on the CCF impact to travel.

Therefore, doesn't basic reasoning suggest that there isn't any? Or the impact to travel is so miniscule that it doesn't register in a meaningful way?

These things are so overblown. I'm still waiting for Etihad to begin AUH-CLE (that's a reference to some comical wishful thinking here after Cleveland Clinic opened their Abu Dhabi facility).

So you'd agree that UPMC has even less of an impact at PIT than the CCF does at CLE?

Less or more who knows. UPMC is a larger network than CCF and also has stuff overseas. I’d say the impact on air service in their respective home cities is minuscule in both cases.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

flyPIT wrote:

fun2fly wrote:

So, speculation. I was hoping for real data from a travel database or service provider (agency, airline, CCF travel manager, etc.). CCF travel encompasses so many areas: there's staffing of the hospitals, administration of the hospitals, then traveling doctors headed out for in country house calls and probably more we don't know about. In the 15 years since I started this thread, I've never seen anyone produce real data on the CCF impact to travel.

Therefore, doesn't basic reasoning suggest that there isn't any? Or the impact to travel is so miniscule that it doesn't register in a meaningful way?

These things are so overblown. I'm still waiting for Etihad to begin AUH-CLE (that's a reference to some comical wishful thinking here after Cleveland Clinic opened their Abu Dhabi facility).

So you'd agree that UPMC has even less of an impact at PIT than the CCF does at CLE?

You didn’t ask me, but I would agree.

luckyone wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

flyPIT wrote:

Therefore, doesn't basic reasoning suggest that there isn't any? Or the impact to travel is so miniscule that it doesn't register in a meaningful way?

These things are so overblown. I'm still waiting for Etihad to begin AUH-CLE (that's a reference to some comical wishful thinking here after Cleveland Clinic opened their Abu Dhabi facility).

So you'd agree that UPMC has even less of an impact at PIT than the CCF does at CLE?

You didn’t ask me, but I would agree.

I agree that actual health care doesn’t generate a lot of travel; but research does. Visiting collaborators, inviting collaborators, grant management, conferences, presentations, etc. - the scientists travel a good bit averaging perhaps 4 trips a year. A lab chief travels even more. I base this on what my wife (the scientist) has done over a career at the NIH.

masseybrown wrote:

luckyone wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

So you'd agree that UPMC has even less of an impact at PIT than the CCF does at CLE?

You didn’t ask me, but I would agree.

I agree that actual health care doesn’t generate a lot of travel; but research does. Visiting collaborators, inviting collaborators, grant management, conferences, presentations, etc. - the scientists travel a good bit averaging perhaps 4 trips a year. A lab chief travels even more. I base this on what my wife (the scientist) has done over a career at the NIH.

If you can share data as to how many people in a research powerhouse actually travel that often and consistently between the same two city pairs, I’m all ears. Because I’ve only worked in major academic centers, am close friends with chairs of large departments, worked with researchers, etc…and know first hand that the number is not that great.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

flyPIT wrote:

fun2fly wrote:

So, speculation. I was hoping for real data from a travel database or service provider (agency, airline, CCF travel manager, etc.). CCF travel encompasses so many areas: there's staffing of the hospitals, administration of the hospitals, then traveling doctors headed out for in country house calls and probably more we don't know about. In the 15 years since I started this thread, I've never seen anyone produce real data on the CCF impact to travel.

Therefore, doesn't basic reasoning suggest that there isn't any? Or the impact to travel is so miniscule that it doesn't register in a meaningful way?

These things are so overblown. I'm still waiting for Etihad to begin AUH-CLE (that's a reference to some comical wishful thinking here after Cleveland Clinic opened their Abu Dhabi facility).

So you'd agree that UPMC has even less of an impact at PIT than the CCF does at CLE?

Not that I think CCF generates tons of travel but UPMC isn’t comparable. UPMC isn’t even the highest rated network in Pennsylvania.

luckyone wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

luckyone wrote:

You didn’t ask me, but I would agree.

I agree that actual health care doesn’t generate a lot of travel; but research does. Visiting collaborators, inviting collaborators, grant management, conferences, presentations, etc. - the scientists travel a good bit averaging perhaps 4 trips a year. A lab chief travels even more. I base this on what my wife (the scientist) has done over a career at the NIH.

If you can share data as to how many people in a research powerhouse actually travel that often and consistently between the same two city pairs, I’m all ears. Because I’ve only worked in major academic centers, am close friends with chairs of large departments, worked with researchers, etc…and know first hand that the number is not that great.

Consistent travel between two city pairs is probably three trips/year for head collaborator, a couple trips more for individual team members. All scientists were allowed two conferences/year; those trips are to various places. Grant management generally involved two people to present/defend a proposal or progress; one more trip by the grantor to inspect, depending on the size and duration of the grant. Again, that would be to various places and less than annual. Invitational travel by lab chiefs and project heads would depend on the importance of the individual or the project but would average two or three trips/year to various places. In aggregate, at a sizable research center, it comes to a lot of travel.

masseybrown wrote:

luckyone wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

I agree that actual health care doesn’t generate a lot of travel; but research does. Visiting collaborators, inviting collaborators, grant management, conferences, presentations, etc. - the scientists travel a good bit averaging perhaps 4 trips a year. A lab chief travels even more. I base this on what my wife (the scientist) has done over a career at the NIH.

If you can share data as to how many people in a research powerhouse actually travel that often and consistently between the same two city pairs, I’m all ears. Because I’ve only worked in major academic centers, am close friends with chairs of large departments, worked with researchers, etc…and know first hand that the number is not that great.

Consistent travel between two city pairs is probably three trips/year for head collaborator, a couple trips more for individual team members. All scientists were allowed two conferences/year; those trips are to various places. Grant management generally involved two people to present/defend a proposal or progress; one more trip by the grantor to inspect, depending on the size and duration of the grant. Again, that would be to various places and less than annual. Invitational travel by lab chiefs and project heads would depend on the importance of the individual or the project but would average two or three trips/year to various places. In aggregate, at a sizable research center, it comes to a lot of travel.

I’ll ask again how many actual people do you know that to be…because I can tell you that’s not actually that many people or trips in the grand scheme of things, even in large departments, that will have measurable impact on specific routes between Cleveland and any of their site cities. Same with Mayo.

In summary none of that is evidence to suggest that there’s a great deal of traffic between the various CCF sites, as has been suggested and I’m refuting.

joeman wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

Even ignoring the G4 point cleveland is #4!

SW a return to MKE/DAL as well as PHX/LAS beyond weekend only if/when operated

I agree that CLE can support the return of WN nonstop service to DAL with AA being the only airline currently serving DFW nonstop from CLE.

WN also now has more room at DAL than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic with DL having moved its DAL flights over to Gate 11.

I was also surprised that WN would increase frequencies on routes such as DAL-DEN/ORD/LAS/BNA/MCO/PHX instead of restoring nonstop service to DAL from markets such as CLE/BOS/DTW that lost WN nonstop service to DAL during the COVID-19 pandemic, even though WN is still facing a pilot shortage.

We are beating a dead horse here. Hospitals are not just care givers, doctors and researchers.

These are two huge businesses with 70 to 90 thousand employees. They have large departments for accounting, government regulatory affairs and compliance, IT, Legal, HSE, HR and facilities management personnel. Heck - UPMC occupies pretty much all of the old US Steel skyscraper. Nobody is being treated there.

These mega hospitals are no different than other large multibillion dollar organizations.

Auditors will always travel no matter who they work for.

Implementing a new software program would probably system wide.

Training.

My last two cents.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

:white: We are beating a dead horse here. Hospitals are not just care givers, doctors and researchers.

These are two huge businesses with 70 to 90 thousand employees. They have large departments for accounting, government regulatory affairs and compliance, IT, Legal, HSE, HR and facilities management personnel. Heck - UPMC occupies pretty much all of the old US Steel skyscraper. Nobody is being treated there.

These mega hospitals are no different than other large multibillion dollar organizations.

Auditors will always travel no matter who they work for.

Implementing a new software program would probably system wide.

Training.

My last two cents.

Sigh. Again, if you’re going to throw around numbers and bits of information, at least use them accurately.

UPMC “only” occupies about a quarter of the US Steel Tower. US Steel actually still is headquartered in the tower and is one of, if not the second largest user of the space. Yes that’s off topic but it illustrates my entire point that this discussion isn’t being based on actual facts, but rather conjecture.

The original premise of the topic was and remains traffic between sites of these mega hospitals. Plenty of speculation, but no facts about it other than “well they’re really big.” Yet none of you have put any hard numbers, and instead we have some folks saying “I know a nurse,” and “there are a lot of employees,” and implying that tons of corporate travel will be going to London (no, it wont, it barely goes to Florida), to “well maybe the Russians want to come,”so I agree put the kibosh on the thing because y’all don’t seem to care for someone who knows what they’re talking about providing information about how these things run. At the end of the day, it’s a handful of people, no more, who get authorization to do regular travel. The overwhelming majority of staff don’t travel at all. Physicians MIGHT travel once or twice a year, if they’re academically engraved — and most are not.

luckyone wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

luckyone wrote:

If you can share data as to how many people in a research powerhouse actually travel that often and consistently between the same two city pairs, I’m all ears. Because I’ve only worked in major academic centers, am close friends with chairs of large departments, worked with researchers, etc…and know first hand that the number is not that great.

Consistent travel between two city pairs is probably three trips/year for head collaborator, a couple trips more for individual team members. All scientists were allowed two conferences/year; those trips are to various places. Grant management generally involved two people to present/defend a proposal or progress; one more trip by the grantor to inspect, depending on the size and duration of the grant. Again, that would be to various places and less than annual. Invitational travel by lab chiefs and project heads would depend on the importance of the individual or the project but would average two or three trips/year to various places. In aggregate, at a sizable research center, it comes to a lot of travel.

I’ll ask again how many actual people do you know that to be…because I can tell you that’s not actually that many people or trips in the grand scheme of things, even in large departments, that will have measurable impact on specific routes between Cleveland and any of their site cities. Same with Mayo.

In summary none of that is evidence to suggest that there’s a great deal of traffic between the various CCF sites, as has been suggested and I’m refuting.

I said research generates more traffic than healthcare. Then I offered instances of such travel based on a long acquaintance with five NIH scientists, three of whom became lab chiefs.

Please point out where I said such travel would affect specific routes.

Sigh. Again, if you’re going to throw around numbers and bits of information, at least use them accurately.

UPMC “only” occupies about a quarter of the US Steel Tower. US Steel actually still is headquartered in the tower and is one of, if not the second largest user of the space. Yes that’s off topic but it illustrates my entire point that this discussion isn’t being based on actual facts, but rather conjecture.

The original premise of the topic was and remains traffic between sites of these mega hospitals. Plenty of speculation, but no facts about it other than “well they’re really big.” Yet none of you have put any hard numbers, and instead we have some folks saying “I know a nurse,” and “there are a lot of employees,” and implying that tons of corporate travel will be going to London (no, it wont, it barely goes to Florida), to “well maybe the Russians want to come,”so I agree put the kibosh on the thing because y’all don’t seem to care for someone who knows what they’re talking about providing information about how these things run. At the end of the day, it’s a handful of people, no more, who get authorization to do regular travel. The overwhelming majority of staff don’t travel at all. Physicians MIGHT travel once or twice a year, if they’re academically engraved — and most are not.[/quote]


Since you claim to know, how much does the travel department of UPMC or the Cleveland Clinic purchase in a year? That will help in this debate.

I'll wait for your answer.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Sigh. Again, if you’re going to throw around numbers and bits of information, at least use them accurately.

UPMC “only” occupies about a quarter of the US Steel Tower. US Steel actually still is headquartered in the tower and is one of, if not the second largest user of the space. Yes that’s off topic but it illustrates my entire point that this discussion isn’t being based on actual facts, but rather conjecture.

The original premise of the topic was and remains traffic between sites of these mega hospitals. Plenty of speculation, but no facts about it other than “well they’re really big.” Yet none of you have put any hard numbers, and instead we have some folks saying “I know a nurse,” and “there are a lot of employees,” and implying that tons of corporate travel will be going to London (no, it wont, it barely goes to Florida), to “well maybe the Russians want to come,”so I agree put the kibosh on the thing because y’all don’t seem to care for someone who knows what they’re talking about providing information about how these things run. At the end of the day, it’s a handful of people, no more, who get authorization to do regular travel. The overwhelming majority of staff don’t travel at all. Physicians MIGHT travel once or twice a year, if they’re academically engraved — and most are not.

Since you claim to know, how much does the travel department of UPMC or the Cleveland Clinic purchase in a year? That will help in this debate.

I'll wait for your answer.[/quote]
For starters you’re turning the question around because you can’t seem to answer it. I am not permitted to provide specific numbers—something you likely full-well know if you worked for a large hospital. But trust me when I tell you it isn’t that much.

masseybrown wrote:

luckyone wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

Consistent travel between two city pairs is probably three trips/year for head collaborator, a couple trips more for individual team members. All scientists were allowed two conferences/year; those trips are to various places. Grant management generally involved two people to present/defend a proposal or progress; one more trip by the grantor to inspect, depending on the size and duration of the grant. Again, that would be to various places and less than annual. Invitational travel by lab chiefs and project heads would depend on the importance of the individual or the project but would average two or three trips/year to various places. In aggregate, at a sizable research center, it comes to a lot of travel.

I’ll ask again how many actual people do you know that to be…because I can tell you that’s not actually that many people or trips in the grand scheme of things, even in large departments, that will have measurable impact on specific routes between Cleveland and any of their site cities. Same with Mayo.

In summary none of that is evidence to suggest that there’s a great deal of traffic between the various CCF sites, as has been suggested and I’m refuting.

I said research generates more traffic than healthcare. Then I offered instances of such travel based on a long acquaintance with five NIH scientists, three of whom became lab chiefs.

Please point out where I said such travel would affect specific routes.

CCF, UPMC, and the like though are healthcare-based research, which the topic of discussion was CCF-based travel. And again, it’s not nearly as much as something like the NIH.

luckyone wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

luckyone wrote:

I’ll ask again how many actual people do you know that to be…because I can tell you that’s not actually that many people or trips in the grand scheme of things, even in large departments, that will have measurable impact on specific routes between Cleveland and any of their site cities. Same with Mayo.

In summary none of that is evidence to suggest that there’s a great deal of traffic between the various CCF sites, as has been suggested and I’m refuting.

I said research generates more traffic than healthcare. Then I offered instances of such travel based on a long acquaintance with five NIH scientists, three of whom became lab chiefs.

Please point out where I said such travel would affect specific routes.

CCF, UPMC, and the like though are healthcare-based research, which the topic of discussion was CCF-based travel. And again, it’s not nearly as much as something like the NIH.

Again, CCF is on another level than UPMC. You claim to know healthcare research yet you keep putting these systems on the same level. It’s not even debatable even though UPMC is a great system.

NIH isn’t comparable as it’s a US Federal Agency and isn’t a non-profit medical organization like CCF, Hopkins and Mayo.

Even with all this, nobody on here seems to know how much travel there actually is. Does anyone know?

izbtmnhd wrote:

luckyone wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

I said research generates more traffic than healthcare. Then I offered instances of such travel based on a long acquaintance with five NIH scientists, three of whom became lab chiefs.

Please point out where I said such travel would affect specific routes.

CCF, UPMC, and the like though are healthcare-based research, which the topic of discussion was CCF-based travel. And again, it’s not nearly as much as something like the NIH.

Again, CCF is on another level than UPMC. You claim to know healthcare research yet you keep putting these systems on the same level. It’s not even debatable even though UPMC is a great system.

NIH isn’t comparable as it’s a US Federal Agency and isn’t a non-profit medical organization like CCF, Hopkins and Mayo.

Even with all this, nobody on here seems to know how much travel there actually is. Does anyone know?

I only brought it up because another poster introduced it in the terms of discussion—though UPMC actually has more facilities and overall staff (though not physicians) than CCF. UPMC and CCF are similar in that they both have overseas branches, which was also brought up by another poster in terms of influencing traffic. NIH I agree isn’t comparable, which is what I said in another post.

In my years of being on airliners.net I can’t once remember someone on any airport/city thread revealing how much a single org travels. I doubt CCF even knows because the travel it generates is likely arranged in many disparate ways. We have a Ccf employee on the thread pointing out correctly that many doctors aren’t researchers, that those who are researchers don’t necessarily travel much, that the staffs aren’t shared much between hospitals, and that patient travel is speculative.

Does anyone think patients, patient families, CCF expat employees or Floridians or Nevadans who travel home to Ohio, researchers on grants, perspective employees flying in for Job interviews, the myriad consultants CCF likely uses, etc all use the same travel agent? If no, how in heavens would anyone know how much travel CCF generates let alone someone on this thread.

ncflyer wrote:

In my years of being on airliners.net I can’t once remember someone on any airport/city thread revealing how much a single org travels. I doubt CCF even knows because the travel it generates is likely arranged in many disparate ways. We have a Ccf employee on the thread pointing out correctly that many doctors aren’t researchers, that those who are researchers don’t necessarily travel much, that the staffs aren’t shared much between hospitals, and that patient travel is speculative.

Does anyone think patients, patient families, CCF expat employees or Floridians or Nevadans who travel home to Ohio, researchers on grants, perspective employees flying in for Job interviews, the myriad consultants CCF likely uses, etc all use the same travel agent? If no, how in heavens would anyone know how much travel CCF generates let alone someone on this thread.

The big ones all have an office that handles it, and for company-funded travel there actually is a central travel agency.

I want to be clear here though that the topic I’ve been addressing is staff/research travel. Patient travel is another matter, being both speculative in terms of how they arrive but also a well-known fact at a place like CCF or Mayo, and patient demographics aren’t hard to tabulate—patients have to provide an address after all. Those two hospitals in particular have survived and thrived on drawing patients from various places — usually neighboring states but they can come from further, and a lot of hospitals have staff whose sole job it is to assist with that. But that’s also nothing new, and traffic routes already reflect whatever impact that can have.

I would say no it is not.

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2023/0 ... th-it.html

^I hit a paywall, so couldn't read the full article. Is the move of the rental car facility a done decision or is it still possible that it can remain where it is?

United has rolled its firm sked through May

CLE-EWR: 7.0 (1x B38M, 1x B738, 2x B737, 3x E175)
CLE-ORD: 6.0 (2x B739, 3x B738, 1x B737)
CLE-IAD: 4.0 (1x B38M, 2x B738, 1x B737)
CLE-DEN: 3.0 (1x B739, 2x B738)
CLE-IAH: 3.0 (1x B738, 1x B737, 1x E175)
CLE-SFO: 2.0 (1x B39M, 1x B738)
CLE-MCO: 1.0 (1x B39M)
CLE-LAX: 1.0 (1x B39M)
CLE-FLL: 1.0 (1x B738)
CLE-CUN: 0.1 (B738)

28.1

ncflyer wrote:

In my years of being on airliners.net I can’t once remember someone on any airport/city thread revealing how much a single org travels. I doubt CCF even knows because the travel it generates is likely arranged in many disparate ways. We have a Ccf employee on the thread pointing out correctly that many doctors aren’t researchers, that those who are researchers don’t necessarily travel much, that the staffs aren’t shared much between hospitals, and that patient travel is speculative.

Does anyone think patients, patient families, CCF expat employees or Floridians or Nevadans who travel home to Ohio, researchers on grants, perspective employees flying in for Job interviews, the myriad consultants CCF likely uses, etc all use the same travel agent? If no, how in heavens would anyone know how much travel CCF generates let alone someone on this thread.

P&G with CVG.

Where is P&G's CVG information published? Have a hard time believing someone from P&G, Delta, or Delta's travel agency would let that information get out but stranger things have happened.

greenair727 wrote:

^I hit a paywall, so couldn't read the full article. Is the move of the rental car facility a done decision or is it still possible that it can remain where it is?

Try again it worked for me.

avtcle wrote:

United has rolled its firm sked through May

CLE-EWR: 7.0 (1x B38M, 1x B738, 2x B737, 3x E175)
CLE-ORD: 6.0 (2x B739, 3x B738, 1x B737)
CLE-IAD: 4.0 (1x B38M, 2x B738, 1x B737)
CLE-DEN: 3.0 (1x B739, 2x B738)
CLE-IAH: 3.0 (1x B738, 1x B737, 1x E175)
CLE-SFO: 2.0 (1x B39M, 1x B738)
CLE-MCO: 1.0 (1x B39M)
CLE-LAX: 1.0 (1x B39M)
CLE-FLL: 1.0 (1x B738)
CLE-CUN: 0.1 (B738)

28.1

Saturday service to NAS is no more?

ncflyer wrote:

Where is P&G's CVG information published? Have a hard time believing someone from P&G, Delta, or Delta's travel agency would let that information get out but stranger things have happened.

See below
https://www.businesstravelnews.com/Corp ... 20/P-and-G

Airlines have access to every major companies travel spend, if you are interested in learning how, search up PRISM data.

Also, P&G doesn't have an exclusive contract with DL, nor does DL use one travel agency.

Regardless the amount of travel the Cleveland Clinic does is not significant enough to move needles.

CLE-NAS well run in March and April ^^

Interesting tidbit I just heard at Cleveland budget hearings from the city HR Director: They expect to announce a new permanent Director of Port Control in approximately 5 weeks.

^another 30-something year old with five years experience like some cabinet members? I'll keep my fingers crossed for someone experienced and competent, but it seems such people don't really want to work for Bibb.

AA updated most of its summer sked. Here’s what it looks like in June for CLE:

CLE-DFW: 5.0 (5x B738)
CLE-CLT: 5.0 (5x B738)
CLE-DCA: 5.0 (1x E175, 2x CRJ9, 2x CRJ7)
CLE-ORD: 4.0 (1x B738, 2x E170, 1x CRJ2)
CLE-LGA: 3.0 (3x E175)
CLE-PHL: 3.0 (2x A319, 1x CRJ9)
CLE-JFK: 2.0 (2x E175)
CLE-MIA: 1.0 (1x B38M)

28 daily

CLE DFW from 4 to 5
CLE DCA from 3 to 5

Also.. CLE-PHX is back on the sked in Sept. highly doubt they will resume that route then, but just something of note I noticed.

CLE allocated $3.2 million from infrastructure package

Here’s how they plan to use it:

1.6 million for renovation of the RTA rapid area
1.6 million for renovation of airport bathrooms

https://www.wkyc.com/amp/article/news/l ... 209b5a0848

Good luck improving bathrooms, some of the bathrooms at Hopkins are so small for a facility of that type, don't know how to fix that situation. Even bathrooms in high traffic locations such as by the food court are woefully undersized.

On another note, over on the UA network thread, it's been posted that UA is cutting a EWR to LHR frequency this summer from 7 to 6, without word on what the slot will be used for if anything. I remember very well when we lost the LHR flight way back when, CO said the slot was more needed for EWR, in other words CO would have rather had a sixth flight (or whatever it was back then) EWR to LHR than one flight CLE to LHR-- felt like a slap in the face, not that I doubt it's truthfulness. I wish I had a scintilla of hope that CLE could get this slot but unfortunately not a prayer with United.

CLE posted its January 2023 numbers. Pax total 634,484, up from 522,134 in Jan 2022. Pax increase was 21.5%. Cargo 12,485K pounds, down from 13,068K pounds. Cargo was down 8.7% (All Purell COVID cargo?)

The most impressive thing about January was the fact total pax dropped only 27K from December. The December-January drop is usually much greater - 160K in 2022, 106K in 2020, 94K in 2019. (I left out 2021 because it was small based on severely reduced numbers for both months.) The 634K for Jan 23 is close to the 669K of Jan 2019; if this momentum keeps up, getting back to 10 million pax should be possible - which is a trigger level to proceed with the new terminal.

CLE also posted finals for 2022: 8,693K passengers total, up 19.4% over 2021.

^A 22% increase is huge. To reach 10M pax, though, do we have enough capacity? It seems most flights are already packed and airlines are not really adding sufficient capacity to CLE--just a few upgauges here and there or just one more frequency to an existing hub now and then.

greenair727 wrote:

^A 22% increase is huge. To reach 10M pax, though, do we have enough capacity? It seems most flights are already packed and airlines are not really adding sufficient capacity to CLE--just a few upgauges here and there or just one more frequency to an existing hub now and then.

They're not adding a lot of flights, but they are adding capacity, more than a just few upgauges, I think. 50-seaters are essentially gone by summer. CR7/900s turning into 737s, 320s turning into 321s, etc. Plus, the entire summer schedule has not yet been posted yet.

The acting airport head has said 10 million is possible this year and he knows more about schedules than has been made public. I'm optimistic. It will be easier to figure out when DoT published load factors for Jan in a couple months.

I always think month by month traffic comparisons are so tough, could be impacted for instance by how many weekends are in a month for instance, or let's say an airline or two have a complete and utter meltdown in one of the months, nonetheless encouraging information.

When I think through the airlines at CLE-- AA and UA have certainly added seats since 2019 due to upgauging. B6, NK, DL, WN, AC have probably shrunk or at best flat. F9 I'm not sure. EI not new but 4x per week not a whole lot. THis is my hunch, could be wrong of course.